Disappointments From Both Sides..?

[ChrisP]

This was in internal topic of another thread...

We've all heard stories of some Thai boys - even the non-commercial ones - being a little less-than-honest (in Western-terms).. but it also happens that some Farang guys can sometimes just "disappear".. or change their minds - with no notification, after making promises to Thai guys, which often change their lives....

What to do..?

ChrisP

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, Chris, for taking this discussion out of the "dodgy candidate" thread.

As I mentioned there, just in the 16 months that I've lived in Chiang Mai, I've seen numerous cases of gay farang men who were going to start up a serious, live-in, non-commercial relationship with a much younger, gay Thai - and then the farang got cold feet, or disappeared.

What we foreigners may fail to appreciate is that these Thai men are living in a culture and a country where they belong, where they're stuck, a place where they need to fit in as a human being with a certain identity, without losing face. And being gay - not even the obvious katoey - makes things more difficult. Then the farang parachutes in, from outer space on his 'butterfly-helicopter,' and the young man is supposed to rearrange his entire lifestyle - place of residence, his relationship, maybe quit his job, suddenly increase his monetary level. But farang don't always fit in here, and we tend to make radical changes in our life, and before you know it, the native English speaker who is also a drunk, drug addict, sex-addicted, or short on finances, quits the arrangement or literally disappears overnight. I'm sure that straight farang do much the same with many Thai women who aren't bargirls.

And, while we're talking about non-commercial (not barboys), the fact remains that usually WE're the ones with the huge income or bank deposits, who insist on having a nice condo, eating Western food, riding a new motor vehicle, buying clothes and other things that the younger man may never have done before. Unless we choose to live at their socio-economic level, it's hard to take the money completely out of the equation. No, the young Thais aren't in it for the money, but they're bound to enjoy our money, until we disappear.

What's worse - a kid who steals 2,000 baht off a drunk who can't hold his liquor, or a careless older man who seriously disrupts a young man's life and then does a runner?

[Ice Treasure]

Isn't it the truth though. I agree I'm pleased it's out of "candidate" and into actual discussion about relationships and their nature. And it is relationships, whether gay or straight we are talking about, not just gay and not just straight.

Living in a relationship for 2 years with my Thai BF has been a time of huge learning for both of us, where we found out what made the other tick and wound each others clocks with care and love and attention to detail.

The biggest hurdle in relationships, at least in CM is that so many of the fat poofs from the social set are just out to get notches on their willies and it's usually done by financial means, then the victim is left high and dry when the farang moves on to the next willie notching exercise.

It degrades the Thai person immensely and makes them distrust (fairly I believe) the real attentions of others who don't do it, and who really do seek a meaningful relationship.

I personally find it sad but I did work out how to make it work... socialise Thai style, speak Thai fluently, visit the parents in law regularly and make sure they know that you love their son totally, without reservation and without conditions, and actually do it.

I hate seeing Thai people discussed in terms of emlpoyment (candidates), and then complained about when they ask for/steal/redirect finance to their own needs.

Sorry but it's just been a sore point for a while.

[Ijustwannateach]

^it's always flattering to be alluded to, but once again you post about me without referring to material in my posts. My candidate thread is primarily speculating on my candidate's honesty. Financial matters don't come into it, for either of us [or he would not be a candidate]. Sorry to take things off-topic, and happy to continue this discussion in the appropriate thread if IT will also keep it there.

To get back to the thread topic, I am personally aware of one feller who bought furniture for a new apartment, and paid for the deposit on the apartment and the furniture using a bank loan. He did all this on the premise that this tourist-type farang was going to come to Thailand, live with him, and share the expenses. When the tourist reneged on their agreement, he was left holding the bag. Poor guy. However, at the same time, he had 3 other farang on the line partly supporting him- smart cookie, didn't put all his eggs in one basket. Sometimes the lines of dodginess are not all that clear-cut.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

There's a sort of long-term dating problem, too, I feel, with the kind of farang who start relationships with really young guys (under 25), and DO take care of them- but too well- for a number of years, say- and then drop them when they get "too old." The Thai guy is then past his working prime and utterly spoiled for real work. Though I've heard of situations where the Thai guy then extorts/threatens the farang for support as long as he continues to live in Thailand, for exactly this reason! [blaming the farang for spoiling him!]

On the whole, I suppose most of the "blame" for this kind of situation rests with the farang, who should know better- but then again, the Thai guy was technically an adult and should have thought about his future. A bad situation all around.

"Steven"

[Ice Treasure]

Thank you so much for sharing that "Steven".

The candidate issue is still outside of your ken I see.. If you were an employer, what would you call the person applying for a position? I don't have an issue with anything outside that, though I did at one stage contemplate apologising for referring to the genesis of your "relationship" as being in a bar, since you said it wasn't.

In the light of variouos other issues I decided instead to say nothing since it appeared it wouldn't achieve a lot.

My thought on the subject is immaterial, though well known to you and others, so I will not re-iterate it here, in someone elses thread.

[Ijustwannateach]

^off topic post

[Ice Treasure]

There's a sort of long-term dating problem, too, I feel, with the kind of farang who start relationships with really young guys (under 25), and DO take care of them- but too well- for a number of years, say- and then drop them when they get "too old." The Thai guy is then past his working prime and utterly spoiled for real work. Though I've heard of situations where the Thai guy then extorts/threatens the farang for support as long as he continues to live in Thailand, for exactly this reason! [blaming the farang for spoiling him!]

On the whole, I suppose most of the "blame" for this kind of situation rests with the farang, who should know better- but then again, the Thai guy was technically an adult and should have thought about his future. A bad situation all around.

"Steven"

I expect there are elements of truth in that too Steven. Thankfully it isn't regular or common, it just seems that butterflies will always be butterflies, which seems to be what you are talking about, both Thai and Farang.

Sad really isn't it?

[ChrisP]

I personally find it sad but I did work out how to make it work... socialise Thai style, speak Thai fluently, visit the parents in law regularly and make sure they know that you love their son totally, without reservation and without conditions, and actually do it.

Ice T... Can you explain a little more about "...socialise Thai style"..? I'm still learning that to socialise in Thailand is somehow different, but my Thai bf is SO westernised, I'm not sure I get it...

What's your (or anyone reading this) thoughts..?

ChrisP

[Ice Treasure]

Hi Chris,

When I refer to socialising Thai style, I really mean doing family things as well as just the two of you going out for a drink or dinner.

For example, going back to the village for a wedding of a cousin or a friend, going to the Wat with the Grandmother to Tambun, just because it doesn't hurt to go now and then and it makes you feel part of the family. Going on a day trip with the people in the village. We did that and had more fun in one day than I could remember, and we didn't get drunk, though we did have a few drinks.

Some villages have a small Karaoke area, which I forget the proper name of, and everyone goes there at some time. It's just fun to do it and doesn't cost a lot. Go along too.

When you take on a Thai BF, you frequently remove him or he removes himself, from his circle of peers. You need to replace that, or enhance it may be a better way of looking at it. He can't and shouldn't live in a vacuum even if he wants to, so you have to find some way of replacing his core support network or ensure he doesn't lose track of its' members.

Steven, quite accurately discusses earlier, the fact that some foreignrs "spoil" their BF for later work.

I for one never stopped my BF from doing what he had always done (studying), and all I have done is make some extra language classes available. (Japanese and Mandarin). I certainly haven't stopped him from doing that, and he has every intention of getting a job when he finishes University, not being a kept boy.

It really means getting out of the comfort zone you establish with your BF, and making sure by your actions and words, that he has nothing to worry about you going after others for ANY reason, but mainly for butterflying. How you develop that trust in him is a question only you can answer, but good luck with it anyway.

A note: Ask your BF to teach you to give thanks before bed, in the Buddhist way. Use that time to give thanks that you have a partner who loves you and will stand by you.

[Ijustwannateach]

And then there are the truly disgusting farang- like the ones I've heard of, for example, who proudly proclaim they no longer use gay moneyboys, because of their propensity to become jealous of one another. No, this guy now uses only straight moneyboys, because he can be bonking one in the bedroom while another sits watching TV on the couch- no problem!

Or there's this guy in my condo building that I always see walking down the soi with a different "date" [MB]- when I walked in last night there was this cute young guy sitting on the entrance chairs, definitely sending out "those vibes," but looking preoccupied and unhappy. As I'm walking in two of Mr. Farang's MBs (two!) are walking out together looking well-satisfied with themselves. A few minutes after, I go back down to buy some drinks at the store and start my laundry- the farang is sitting there on the entrance chairs with the young fellow, looking VERY unhappy. They're still there when I come back with the second load of clothes, and Mr. Farang is trying to convince Unhappy Boy to come in with him. Instead, Unhappy Boy takes off down the Soi with Mr. Farang chasing after him. Guess Mr. Farang should start using straight MBs too!

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Ice T.. Many thanks for that advice. My bf isn't buddhist, he's RCatholic.. so the

Ask your BF to teach you to give thanks before bed, in the Buddhist way. Use that time to give thanks that you have a partner who loves you and will stand by you.

isn't quite going to work.

I agree with you about his core friends.. I'm not with him all the time... so he can maintain those connections fairly easily. He does integrate me with them.. and with his mother and auntie... (We're in BKK, btw)

I certainly reassure him at every opportunity that I'm not about to leave him, or "butterfly"... He's slowly getting the message, and is more relaxed..

ChrisP

[ChrisP]

IJWT...

Straight Money-boys..? Ohhhh.. I could NEVER get into that. !

But, I guess it does cut out the Gay/jealousy issue..!

I always thought that was fascinating.. that a "commercial transaction" could involve jealousy! It certainly happened to me in the past.

Thais can "compartmentalize" anything!!

Mr.Farang in your building shouldn't be so greedy... 3 in one night... He deserves to have one walk away...

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Yeah... it sorta highlights the way some of these guys objectify their sex partners- doesn't even matter if there's any attraction the other way or not! I couldn't do that; it would be a complete turnoff even if I could somehow ignore the ethical problems. No wonder they don't have any long term relationships!

IT, good points about maintaining a real relationship with a Thai guy- the family and friends and other social contacts are very important. As a matter of fact, it's fishy (as it was with my ex- story coming soon) if they DON'T try to introduce family, friends, etc. and drag you kicking and screaming to the karaoke room!

Once again, regarding the "spoilers," they think they are doing their guy a favor- but without putting it into the context of a life "after you" [which is always a possibility] it's really a selfish thing to dislocate somebody from their own career, whatever it's going to be. Enhancing or developing that career is the best road- making sure your Thai partner remains in school or a job or is getting ready for one (and something real with a future please, no more hair dressers or kathoey makeup specialists!). Any Thai partner who's not able to see this logic himself is already doomed anyway.

"Steven"

[astral]

Ask your BF to teach you to give thanks before bed, in the Buddhist way. Use that time to give thanks that you have a partner who loves you and will stand by you.

Ice T.. Many thanks for that advice. My bf isn't buddhist, he's RCatholic.. so that isn't quite going to work.

Not to worry.

You could both kneel down and thank God that you have each other,

before you go to bed each night.

Building trust takes time.

[Ice Treasure]

Ask your BF to teach you to give thanks before bed, in the Buddhist way. Use that time to give thanks that you have a partner who loves you and will stand by you.

Ice T.. Many thanks for that advice. My bf isn't buddhist, he's RCatholic.. so that isn't quite going to work.

Not to worry.

You could both kneel down and thank God that you have each other,

before you go to bed each night.

Building trust takes time.

Good idea Astral. I find Wai Phra an interesting moment, as it occurs in the moments before sleep, and encompasses the entire day in thanks and in the next days' hopes.

A special moment, and catholics can do it in my opinion, since the best Christians are often Buddhist. (Quote but I can't remember who from).

[ProThaiExpat]

Obsessive sex, by my definition is unsatisfying sex. Looking for love in all the wrong places is another way of looking at it.

In my younger days, I used to boast of doing it four times or more in an evening, with a different partner each time. However, one evening I met a terrific partner and we shared a loving few hours. I had no interest in sex anymore that night.

Thus I learned from experience, that repetivitve sex with different partners, for me, is only an indication I am not being satisfied, by that behavior. Anyone who has made love where love is returned knows exactly what I am talking about and nothing comes close to that experience. I would rather pass on the quickie than deal with the residue they inevitably leave behind.