Foreign Teachers Working With Thai Teachers ?

[JERRYUK]

Hi, I am currently doing a research paper on "Teaching in a Foreign Country" (i.e. Thailand) and would be really appreciative for any comments from teachers, who would not mind sharing their experiences. This paper forms part of my BA Hons Degree in education, as one day I hope to become a teacher in Thailand.

I’ve already spent hours of research though the net and various books/papers, but I am just looking to back these up with some real life feedback.

The main areas I am investigating is the implications of being a foreign teacher working with Thai teachers.

Thanks in advance for any support.

Geoff.

[Hong Kong Phooey]

Jeez, where to start ?!!

One of the main issues I've found is a reluctance (nay, resistance) by many Thai teachers to embrace any other teaching method than that which promotes rote learning. They either cannot, or will not, consider changing their teaching style. That said, I've worked with some very good Thai teachers who have been interested (outwardly, at least) in methods used in Western countries. Whether they've gone on to implement some of the tried and tested techniques I don't know. However, the fact they were interested is a good sign. This has been in Government schools. The upshot was initial confusion from students who'd been used to years of rote learning and then being confronted with a foreign teacher using different pedagogy. A learning curve for all of us, methinks.

In my initial years in Thailand, I also experienced some negative attitudes from Thai teachers resulting, I think, from my being the first foreigner to work at their school. Comments usually centred around their (inaccurate) perception that all foreigners consider themselves to be right about every aspect of Thai education. A couple of comments later translated for me expressed their view that they didn't see any need for change in their education system when it has worked adequately for decades. These comments were from young and old Thai teachers alike.

What amused me most was that I rarely ventured any opinions on such matters at all and just got on with teaching. I think maybe there was a fear factor involved which must have raised their hackles.

BTW, which uni are you studying at for your B.Ed. ?

[Scott]

I think many would be willing to help if you had specific questions. Anectodal information might be too general and may not properly represent the overall situation between Thai teachers and Foreign teachers. There is also the capacity in which people 'work' with them. Is the Thai Teacher actually a teacher or an administratiive person? Are they co-teaching? Or is it simply coordinating lessons that are then unsupervised by a teacher.

I work in administration and so I get a lot of the complaints. From the Thai administration, I get the complaints on techniques, class management, speaks harshly to students, etc. From the Thai teachers the main complaint is about foreign teachers being late for lessons and (via their students), not understanding--he/she talks too fast, material is too difficult etc. Basically the Thai teachers don't complain very much.

Foreign teachers generally complain about subjective matters. He/she isn't very polite or friendly (basically doesn't show the FT enough respect). The TT is sometimes accused of 'interfering' by translating, or by talking to students.

Overall, where I work there is sort of a 'glass wall' between the two sides, but generally they get along and cooperate with one another reasonably well. At the administrative level, I often find myself 'fighting' with them quite often.

[Ijustwannateach]

A survey form would make your data more quantifiable. You could even set up a few through the thread software here.

[Stamp]

Hi, I am currently doing a research paper on "Teaching in a Foreign Country" (i.e. Thailand) and would be really appreciative for any comments from teachers, who would not mind sharing their experiences. This paper forms part of my BA Hons Degree in education, as one day I hope to become a teacher in Thailand.

I've already spent hours of research though the net and various books/papers, but I am just looking to back these up with some real life feedback.

The main areas I am investigating is the implications of being a foreign teacher working with Thai teachers.

Thanks in advance for any support.

Geoff.

I recommend to do a literature (books, internet or whatever) research first. The resarch questions would be:" Thai education" and for example "Education in Germany".

Then try to find unexplored issues or discrepancies related to your hypthesis. From there you've to make a questionaire which helps you farther to support your hypothesis.

Your current hypothesis is IMO not good enough. It's too broad. I think your hypothesis should be something like:"How should foreign teachers operate and comply with Thai customs and values to bring Thai students to an international measureable success"?

Your questionaire is welcome here.

Stamp

[Ijustwannateach]

:D

Or how about this:

"How can foreigners best manage to jump through the hoops of that imaginary construct, 'Thainess,' so that their bosses and the brown-nosing foreign shills who spy for them will be happy?"

I think the study question he originally suggested was fine, and THAT questionnaire would certainly be welcome here. The questionnaire you suggest, Stamp, would be laughed out of this place.

"S"

[mopenyang]

If you think "Thainess" is only imaginary, therein lies the problem.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not getting involved with this interesting side debate between native and non-native speakers, and focusing on the OP,

I worked for almost two years at two government matayoms in a remote province, at leading provincial, established, highly regarded, large schools. The Thai teachers in the Foreign Language Dept. at first were stand-offish. The Head of the Department, a French teacher, never spoke to me, and it took me a couple months to realize she was my boss. The better teachers, who spoke 80% fluent English, were often the best. However, the M4 coordinator (the only PhD on the entire campus), neglected to provide me with a curriculum, for months. They could not explain the curriculum at all. They kept me in the dark almost constantly. Nor did they bother to mention that I was using the female staff toilet, for weeks. A few trusty souls asked me for advice with grammar, Americanisms, test questions, etc. However, they did not change their inscrutable questions or enigmatic answers after I advised them well. Several teachers (nearly half) never interacted meaningfully with me as a professional colleague, but showed respect. What they said about me in Thai, I did not know or much care. Especially at the first school, they isolated me in a most frustrating manner.

The Thai teachers I worked with were good civil servants: neither the dullest nor the brightest Thais, overworked, underpaid (generally between 18K and 33K every month, plus pension), and dutiful. The math teacher was a dear, and taught all the Thai units which nobody would translate for me. Of the 30 or 40 with whom I worked (out of 330 teachers on the two campuses), one became a friend (but she is so Americanized she is shunned by the rest).

They do not know how to manage a farang. They have no concept of foreigness. They are blinded by Thainess.

[grtaylor]

:D

Or how about this:

"How can foreigners best manage to jump through the hoops of that imaginary construct, 'Thainess,' so that their bosses and the brown-nosing foreign shills who spy for them will be happy?"

I think the study question he originally suggested was fine, and THAT questionnaire would certainly be welcome here. The questionnaire you suggest, Stamp, would be laughed out of this place.

"S"

"Shill"? Thats the second time this week I've seen this word - never seen it before. What does it mean?

Thanks

[PeaceBlondie]

I see that shill must be an Americanism: "secret partner of a pitchman, auctioneer or gambler, who attracts customers by pretending to be a customer himself." It can be used as a verb, also.

[otherstuff1957]

The biggest problem with working with Thai teachers is that they DON"T work with you. The Thai teachers I worked with were mostly polite and often friendly. The younger and more confident ones would sometimes ask questions about English usage or grammar problems, BUT NONE of them ever made any attempt to integrate my 'conversation classes' into their cirriculum. Furthermore, when I endeavored to find out what they were teaching so that my lessons would reinforce theirs (and vice versa) I met with so much passive resistance that I eventually abandoned my efforts.

Another interesting thing I noticed about Thai teachers is that, unlike Western teachers, they tend to be very conservative. For instance, I was teaching a class full of Thai Prathom and Matthayom teachers and brought up the subject of traffic. I asked them if they had any ideas about how to solve Bangkok's traffic jams. After they discussed a couple of ideas I told them that non-commercial vehicles had to pay a toll to enter central London & asked if they thought that a similar scheme would work in Bangkok. They all just laughed and said, "Thai people are poor, they couldn't pay to drive in the city". I promptly asked them if Thai people who could afford cars were poor. They just responded with blank looks.

What I learned from that lesson is that Thai teachers tend to be bastions of traditional thought. My teachers back in the US were mostly quite liberal and forward thinking. Thai teachers are usually exactly the opposite!

[Ijustwannateach]

'Thainess' exists, just not among the normal population. 'Thainess' is a construct which supposes, among other things, an imaginary heritage in which Thais never had sex before marriage, were always polite and subservient to their superiors, who were always good leaders and benefactors, etc., etc. It's promoted by various branches of government, including the education department, but has nothing to do with what it means to be a natural-born resident of different real parts of Thailand. That's why I laugh when people (especially foreigners) mention it.

"S"

[davep]

I have taught at various Thai schools and other educational institutions over the years . At the beginning I was gung ho, enthusiastic, wanting to be part of the team, give the students all the energy and knowledge and experience I had gained over the years. To help broaden their horizons, get them to question and put forward opinion, be open to other ideas, attitudes and ways of doing things. The kids generally were keen to discover new things ,new ways, experiment, adventure.

I expected to receive help from the Thai teaching body (after all I was working with what was supposed to be the intellectually better off whose job it was to prepare their charges for the real wold future) etc. etc.

I met constant resistance to any change or idea. What did a foreigner know about what was good for Thais and Thailand? They knew better. The subtle back stabbing, snubing, ignorance, un-helpfulness from almost all the Thai teaching staff was really frustrating and sad.

Sure they (Thai staff) appeared friendly, smiled, generally polite, almost never a corse word (to my face), but they let it be known I was an out-sider, tollerated only barely and above all don't rock the boat. This was Thailand, they knew best, I was to stay in my place. Everything was just how they wanted it.

Long story short. I gave up trying to change the world. Using my energy for a bunch of ungrateful people who really didn't want anything to change. I felt all they wanted from me (and other western teachers) was that they could boast "we have foreign teachers" as part of their marketing strategy.

I became happy to leave them in their ignorant bliss. I rolled along, going through the motions, collecting my sallary, kept a smile on my face Sabai, Sabai. I gave up the thought of trying to prepare these kids for an increasingly competitive, globalized world. All the time thinking that as long as these kids have no real aspirations of finding a professional job outside of Thailand they will probably be fine.

Maybe ignorance is bliss. Maybe my ideals are out of place. I don't really care anymore about the state of education in Thailand. Let them do with it as they see fit.

Luckily thesedays I'm winding down. I don't have to put in all the grunt work I did before.

[Oliang]

The biggest problem with working with Thai teachers is that they DON"T work with you. The Thai teachers I worked with were mostly polite and often friendly. The younger and more confident ones would sometimes ask questions about English usage or grammar problems, BUT NONE of them ever made any attempt to integrate my 'conversation classes' into their cirriculum. Furthermore, when I endeavored to find out what they were teaching so that my lessons would reinforce theirs (and vice versa) I met with so much passive resistance that I eventually abandoned my efforts.

Another interesting thing I noticed about Thai teachers is that, unlike Western teachers, they tend to be very conservative. For instance, I was teaching a class full of Thai Prathom and Matthayom teachers and brought up the subject of traffic. I asked them if they had any ideas about how to solve Bangkok's traffic jams. After they discussed a couple of ideas I told them that non-commercial vehicles had to pay a toll to enter central London & asked if they thought that a similar scheme would work in Bangkok. They all just laughed and said, "Thai people are poor, they couldn't pay to drive in the city". I promptly asked them if Thai people who could afford cars were poor. They just responded with blank looks.

What I learned from that lesson is that Thai teachers tend to be bastions of traditional thought. My teachers back in the US were mostly quite liberal and forward thinking. Thai teachers are usually exactly the opposite!

Are you sure you can come to that general conclusion about "Thai teachers" from your own limited experiences with them?

[PeaceBlondie]

Limited experiences? We all have limited experiences, and so do the Thai teachers. Most of the ones I knew were middle aged, frustrated ladies who had seldom been more than two provinces away from their birthplace. They were repeating the same mistakes every year.

The opening poster here has not asked only those with decades of increasingly relevant and responsible, diversified experience to give our opinions. Our posters here often have lots of experience, here and in other countries. Most of the Thai teachers do not. Nice people, but not great teachers, generally.

[Scott]

In my administrative capacity, the posts so far reflect very well the concerns which I hear over and over again.

Generally, it is up to the foreign teacher to cooperate with the Thai teacher--very seldom will they cooperate with you. Polite and nice, even in complete agreement, but still it will be the way they (or their superiors) have decided it will be. This includes things which are blatantly wrong--such as incorrect grammar.

To give you an example, years ago we had a Thai teacher who used the phrase "vocabularies words". It was explained to her (in private) that it should be 'vocabulary words. She disagreed since it was more than one. A foreign teacher took to changing it on the board. It was changed back, over and over again this went on. Students were hit with a ruler (teachers could do that at the time) if they wrote 'vocabulary' in their notebook.

I have a lot of examples such as this.

All things must defer to the Thai curriculum and how it is interpreted and that is seen as 'important'. In general, what Foreign Teachers do is seen as unimportant. This causes a great deal of frustration.

The frustration is particularly apparent for people who have had a career in teaching prior to coming to Thailand. Those who 'fell' into the field after arriving seem to weather the difficulties a little better.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, in many ways those who come here after experiencing real professional teaching environments fare the worst, because they just *know* things aren't right- not being able to fail students, not having meetings where the goal is really to solve problems, not having any right to question a higher level management decision based on logic, not having people honour their contracts without playing games, working with persons who are often barely competent- these are things that the formerly experienced take for granted.

"S"

[otherstuff1957]

The biggest problem with working with Thai teachers is that they DON"T work with you. The Thai teachers I worked with were mostly polite and often friendly. The younger and more confident ones would sometimes ask questions about English usage or grammar problems, BUT NONE of them ever made any attempt to integrate my 'conversation classes' into their cirriculum. Furthermore, when I endeavored to find out what they were teaching so that my lessons would reinforce theirs (and vice versa) I met with so much passive resistance that I eventually abandoned my efforts.

Another interesting thing I noticed about Thai teachers is that, unlike Western teachers, they tend to be very conservative. For instance, I was teaching a class full of Thai Prathom and Matthayom teachers and brought up the subject of traffic. I asked them if they had any ideas about how to solve Bangkok's traffic jams. After they discussed a couple of ideas I told them that non-commercial vehicles had to pay a toll to enter central London & asked if they thought that a similar scheme would work in Bangkok. They all just laughed and said, "Thai people are poor, they couldn't pay to drive in the city". I promptly asked them if Thai people who could afford cars were poor. They just responded with blank looks.

What I learned from that lesson is that Thai teachers tend to be bastions of traditional thought. My teachers back in the US were mostly quite liberal and forward thinking. Thai teachers are usually exactly the opposite!

Are you sure you can come to that general conclusion about "Thai teachers" from your own limited experiences with them?

Yes, I am basing my conclusion on my own limited experiences. However, I have taught in Thailand for 5 years at 3 different schools, in addition to summer school/camps, weekend classes, etc... So my experience isn't really that limited.

While I feel that I have accurately described the majority of Thai teachers, there are many exceptions. I have met Thai teachers of all ages who were innovative, creative and forward thinking. However, they were a minority of the teachers that I have worked with.

[JERRYUK]

Thanks for your replies, some interesting replies.

I'll try and narrow my question.

"Problems encountered with Thai teachers."

As I am not sure of the outcomes yet, I considered the following may have an effect on the working relationships between thai and english teachers, eg. cultural differences, language barrieres, respect, pay differences, etc. But as I am not a teacher in thailand yet, I was hoping for your feedback to either back up or dismiss any pre-conceptions i have considered.

Thanks again,

p.s i am currently studying at Sunderland Uni.

[JERRYUK]

This is the first time ive used the forum and cant belive the resposne, wow... thanks again.

A few people have suggested a develop a short poll, so after analsying your feedback i will try to use your data to produce a poll, this may give me guidance as to where my research is leading.

cheers

[BlackArtemis]

My two Thai teachers with whom I have worked have been fantastic. I simply tell them what I want to do and they say go ahead. I think the only time I have been instructed to do something is dealing with school competitions. In fact if the admin has a hair brained plan and we both know it is not a good idea, my Thai partner tells me do what we decide and she will handle the admin.

I think the way to a great relationship is to act as second in command, I ask permission for things even when I KNOW I will be told yes, such as changing the seating chart.

I am very lucky, I know people who work in different grades who have very different experiences. I have been lucky to have a wonderful co-teacher who not only helps and backs me up, but is just a wonderful person to work with.