Thailand Assures Smooth Passage For Olympic Torch Relay

[Plus]

when twenty years down the line locals will start asking why they sold all their resources to China for pittance, that's when you'll have a revolution on your hands.

That revolution will never come because China has always handled things through proxy. They let the ethnic government take care of its population while engaging in joint business ventures....

There aren't that many joint business ventures with Chinese in SE Asia, for example. Local economies are controlled by local Chinese, not the ones from Shanghai.

It's when the local Chinese/local proxies finally grow up and realise that they live here and so should work for prosperity of THIS place, not for some idiotic notion that they are part of a great Chinese nation that will move forward together - it won't. "Great Chinese" will suck this place dry and move on.

Not so big deal for Thailand, it doesn't have any natural resources that matter in the great scheme of things, but I bet in Africa they'd soon realise that Chinese aren't their best friends. Good times won't last forever and Chinese are still kindergarten kids when it comes to managing crises and sharing resources. Who knows what they will do when they really need to secure oil, for example.

>>>

Clever Saudis simply set up shopfronts in Afganistan while all the business was done with their own money by their own citzens anywhere BUT in Afganistan itself. Driving out Taleban helped only in the short term, those bearded goatfuc_kers aren't real enemies.

[plachon]

It seems the Olympic torch's passage won't go completely smoothly through the streets after all...........

http://www.forum-asia.org/index.php?option...3&Itemid=42

Today it's in New Delhi where there are big protests and so it would be surprising if Bangkok proved an exception to the pattern so far.

[jstumbo]

Erm what ?? you been at the Fox news again ??

Do you mean 9/11 and the mostly Saudi attackers ?? Those nice bush buddy friends ?? Those nice non democratic nation states (bringing democracy to those that oppose us)..

It is an international organization with members from many different countries. You do not punish and go after the group by attacking every country that has citizens that are members. If that was the case, then I guess we should bomb England, and Germany, and Australia, and Canada and the US? You do go after the group by attacking where their leadership is located. You do go after the group by attacking where there training camps are located. You do go after the group by attacking the government that is shielding them and hosting them in their country. Which was done after giving them the Afghan government a warning to turn them over.

Edited April 17, 2008 by jstumbo

[Plus]

I doubt there will be any significant protests in Thailand. Thais don't care about far more serious home problems and very few of them even aware that Tibet used to be a separate country, and Dalai Lama is not their brand of Buddhism.

[jstumbo]

The second part, which I didn't realize until I lived in the area for a sustained period, is the Chinese belief of domination and total control of people and land. They honestly believe that all of SE Asia, Korea, Japan +++ are their rightful territories. It's a dangerous ethos and it's wrong.

........ The Chinese have that side whilst also holding a deep belief in their psyche that they are the rightful owners of Asia.

The second is a Chinese trait and very dangerous for the region (World?).

Hmmm............a bit more evidence about this speculation would be most welcome.

In my 3+ years living in China I never encountered a single incidence of this "deep belief".

I also never really saw that while I have lived there. Taiwan, Tibet, yes, but the rest of Asia, as far as I have seen they make no claim to it.

[jstumbo]

I doubt there will be any significant protests in Thailand. Thais don't care about far more serious home problems and very few of them even aware that Tibet used to be a separate country, and Dalai Lama is not their brand of Buddhism.

I agree. I think that most protesters, if there are any, will be of the foreign variety.

[Heng]

Evening guys. Unfortunately there will be no squatters to evict. Just beer bottles and rags. Will have to crash early and continue this tomorrow... kinda bushed. Got stuck in Bangsaan on the way to Sriracha because we forgot that today was the start of their special Songkran-esque day.

Thank you for your continued patronage.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Heng

[Johpa]

There's another matter that people rarely mention. Tibet is a very strategic region of control. It's a beachhead of sorts because China is surrounded by dense mountainous terrain. All humanitarian issues aside the Chinese government has legitimate concerns over national security over this region. There is a stratfor military analyst article that explains things much better than I can and it's fairly balanced in its point of view over China's concerns with the Tibetan region.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geo...nificance_tibet

An excerpt:

The Chinese have a fundamental national interest in retaining Tibet, because Tibet is the Chinese anchor in the Himalayas. If that were open, or if Xinjiang became independent, the vast buffers between China and the rest of Eurasia would break down. The Chinese can’t predict the evolution of Indian, Islamic or Russian power in such a circumstance, and they certainly don’t intend to find out. They will hold both of these provinces, particularly Tibet.

Startfor is a very conservative political organization based in of all places, surprise surprise, that great State of Texas, with links to the Neo-cons, you know those brilliant strategists who brought the world the recent invasion of Iraq for similar "strategic" purposes. These folks maintain the 19th century view of the world favored by America's leading war criminal and political consultant, Henry the K. By rationalizing the invasion and colonization of Tibet by Chinese forces with such specious "strategic" reasoning, so too do they reattempt to rationalize their support of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. You would think they would learn from the total failure of this demented type of "strategic thinking" in Vietnam.

[YoungFarang13]

what no good places to pull over and relax around there heng?

[LivinLOS]

There's another matter that people rarely mention. Tibet is a very strategic region of control. It's a beachhead of sorts because China is surrounded by dense mountainous terrain. All humanitarian issues aside the Chinese government has legitimate concerns over national security over this region. There is a stratfor military analyst article that explains things much better than I can and it's fairly balanced in its point of view over China's concerns with the Tibetan region.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/chinese_geo...nificance_tibet

An excerpt:

The Chinese have a fundamental national interest in retaining Tibet, because Tibet is the Chinese anchor in the Himalayas. If that were open, or if Xinjiang became independent, the vast buffers between China and the rest of Eurasia would break down. The Chinese can’t predict the evolution of Indian, Islamic or Russian power in such a circumstance, and they certainly don’t intend to find out. They will hold both of these provinces, particularly Tibet.

Startfor is a very conservative political organization based in of all places, surprise surprise, that great State of Texas, with links to the Neo-cons, you know those brilliant strategists who brought the world the recent invasion of Iraq for similar "strategic" purposes. These folks maintain the 19th century view of the world favored by America's leading war criminal and political consultant, Henry the K. By rationalizing the invasion and colonization of Tibet by Chinese forces with such specious "strategic" reasoning, so too do they reattempt to rationalize their support of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. You would think they would learn from the total failure of this demented type of "strategic thinking" in Vietnam.

Stratfor is a bit gung ho and is a bit possibly right leaning. However it has some of the most inciteful analysis I have found as a info source, especially the broad strokes stuff on new issues I have not had the ability to study or think deeply on.

Yes it has a potential bias.. But it also is a rare geopolitical information source that I have a hard time finding an equal to.

[mr_hippo]

I doubt there will be any significant protests in Thailand. Thais don't care about far more serious home problems and very few of them even aware that Tibet used to be a separate country, and Dalai Lama is not their brand of Buddhism.

Tibet was a separate country until the early days of the Qing dynasty (1644-1912). In modern times, it has never been an internationally recognised sovereign state.

Edited April 17, 2008 by mr_hippo

[Heng]

^ amen. It's no different than the way most people feel about their yard, pool, or sundeck. Not only that, China is nice enough to let people go on with their pool party.

[Heng]

Generations ago? So, those people have pasted on have they not? Their descendents are now Thai are they not? My mother-in-law speaks only Thai, has a Thai name and a Thai past port, and gives her loyalty to Thailand and the King. Be careful how you generalize people, people are not so simple as demographics would have them.

I can attest to this. I don't consider myself Chinese at all. In my mind, I'm 100% Thai. My loyalty totally lies with Thailand. And I'm disgusted by the way China has handled Tibet issue as well.

By the way, I'd also find it very sad and very disappointing if any Thais of my generation (whether they are Chinese or Indian or European descendants) see themselves as any other nationals except Thais.

I would think they are indeed in the minority. Myself, I don't consider myself a Chinese national at all, nor would most true Chinese nationals consider me a national. I don't even speak clear Mandarin. The only people I ever hear trying to distiguish who is "really" Thai or Thai Chinese are the folks who for some reason need a focal point to which they can direct blame for the socio-economic failures of their adopted ethnic Thai families.

[Heng]

More ridiculous comments from Heng...

The Chinese slaughter nearly a million inner Mongolians after WWII, and moved in five Millian Chinese to take over their land - very humane.

Tibetans have been slaughtered on masse too (maybe not the 100,000's that you consider 'en masse').

What are the old 'Mongolian ways'? Your insecurities are rushing to the surface here. (Though it is true a tiny Mongolian population of less than 80,000 men women and children slaughtered and controlled the Chinese population of tens of millions...Whereas nowadays the Chinese billions pick on tiny populations to bully [relative to their own size].)

Ah yes, jasreeve, this isn't going to be another one post/comment every 4 months discussion is it? I know those dial up cards/kits might be getting hard to find up there...

I was talking as in Genghis Khan, Kubla Khan, etc. As for after WWII, sounds like a little tit-for-tat to me. They really got us the time before that. Next time will be their turn. And again, I was talking about the takeover of Thailand, not Tibet. The takeover of Thailand was by Huaren (the overseas Chinese), not the Chinese state, although the underlying basics are the same. That the Huaren way of consolidation (is that a nicer way to put it?) is infinitely better was the point.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Heng

[Heng]

I can attest to this. I don't consider myself Chinese at all. In my mind, I'm 100% Thai. My loyalty totally lies with Thailand. And I'm disgusted by the way China has handled Tibet issue as well.

By the way, I'd also find it very sad and very disappointing if any Thais of my generation (whether they are Chinese or Indian or European descendants) see themselves as any other nationals except Thais.

Correct you may see yourself as Thai. But when it comes time for a wife, do you prefer a Thai-Chinese wife, or a Thai-Thai wife? Which would your family accept? When doing business, are most of the people you work with Thai-Chinese?

Doesn't really matter as there are plenty of Thai-Chinese and Thais that prefer the other and not "their own." There are plenty of Chinese worldwide participating in the 'melting pot' ideology. When doing business, it's difficult NOT to work with someone Thai-Chinese though, and it's a misconception that that came about because of some kind of racist masterplan. There is no doubt racism sprinkled in like a little cinnamon to a cup of coffee, but overall the reasons are differences in business acumen. It's not PC, but it's the truth. Kind of like how folks made a big deal about how there weren't any African American fighter pilots in the US armed forces in the past because of racism. Sure, there was truth to that... and when let in and trained they performed rather well... but look at how many there are now (very few). It's difficult to argue that there is no difference in ability. The PC crowd though instead chooses to believe that there must be something more sinister going on behind the scenes.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Heng

[thaibebop]

Generations ago? So, those people have pasted on have they not? Their descendents are now Thai are they not? My mother-in-law speaks only Thai, has a Thai name and a Thai past port, and gives her loyalty to Thailand and the King. Be careful how you generalize people, people are not so simple as demographics would have them.

Ah, that's what they want you to think. Are their loyalties solely to Thailand and the King or do they have an underlying goal to promote businesses of ethnic / semi-ethnic Chinese? I think the latter.

Take Thaksin for example... do you honestly think that he isn't in bed with China to some degree?

I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're portraying either.

Really? Well, you seem to know so much about my in-laws, do you know them? When did you met them? While my mother has descended from Chinese that came generations ago, my father in law certainly didn't, and he was the one with the money. My mother-in-law came from a poor family that lost their father very early on and she had to help her mother raise her sisters and two brothers, one died very young also. Hardly Chinese business persons funneling money to the PRC. That is all I am willing to share with you, I find you small minded and racist. Seek greater understanding please.

[Heng]

It will be quite some time before resentment against the "new power" builds.

They are already seeing it in places. In the last few years there have been protests and destruction of Chinese owned businesses in Asia. I was also reading about some resentment in Africa against the Chinese.

I think you are confusing initial resistance against takeover of the country with resentment against an established imperial power and quest for freedom. Surely someone will protest when Chinese just move in, it's manageable, there are more people with welcome mats anyway. It's when twenty years down the line locals will start asking why they sold all their resources to China for pittance, that's when you'll have a revolution on your hands.

That revolution will never come because China has always handled things through proxy. They let the ethnic government take care of its population while engaging in joint business ventures. They do this far better than we (as in the recent western countries) have ever done it. If you look at history western colonial ventures were often magnificent wastes of money and time that led to the gradual unravelling of their respective imperial empires. China is doing it the smart way by proxy and through golden handcuffs with the ruling governments and not though force. It's very "corporate" in its line of thinking. It's easier to buy a company out and run it with existing CEOs than to change the name brand and hire new personnel.

Pretty much spot on, although I wouldn't say it's a clear cut proxy situation with mainlanders pulling the strings. It's give and take, not quite "who's your daddy?" but more like "who's your big brother?"

[Heng]

what no good places to pull over and relax around there heng?

That is standard operating procedure, but we were stuck well before the first Jet gas station, and the nearest oasis was a good 2 hours away (even though only 3-4 kms. down the road).

[jasreeve17]

More ridiculous comments from Heng...

The Chinese slaughter nearly a million inner Mongolians after WWII, and moved in five Millian Chinese to take over their land - very humane.

Tibetans have been slaughtered on masse too (maybe not the 100,000's that you consider 'en masse').

What are the old 'Mongolian ways'? Your insecurities are rushing to the surface here. (Though it is true a tiny Mongolian population of less than 80,000 men women and children slaughtered and controlled the Chinese population of tens of millions...Whereas nowadays the Chinese billions pick on tiny populations to bully [relative to their own size].)

Ah yes, jasreeve, this isn't going to be another one post/comment every 4 months discussion is it? I know those dial up cards/kits might be getting hard to find up there...

I was talking as in Genghis Khan, Kubla Khan, etc. As for after WWII, sounds like a little tit-for-tat to me. They really got us the time before that. Next time will be their turn. And again, I was talking about the takeover of Thailand, not Tibet. The takeover of Thailand was by Huaren (the overseas Chinese), not the Chinese state, although the underlying basics are the same. That the Huaren way of consolidation (is that a nicer way to put it?) is infinitely better was the point.

The way the Chinese moved to Thailand (and many other places) is fine. Hard working economic migrants deserve their chance. Much to dislike about the 2nd and 3rd Thai / Chinese generations with regard to their treatment of others (Thais for example) though...

Your comments on tit-for-tat (we'll show Chinggis....) are not inline with my own. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I have a problem with the Chinese states expantionalist ideas. Some posters seem to deny there is one, so I suggest they speak to people from bordering countries (Laos, Vietnam, Mongolia, Tibet, [ok the Koreans will be happy to have Chinese passports, but the Japanese won't.]) regarding their fears. These fears are very real and well founded.

See you in four months.

[YoungFarang13]

what no good places to pull over and relax around there heng?

That is standard operating procedure, but we were stuck well before the first Jet gas station, and the nearest oasis was a good 2 hours away (even though only 3-4 kms. down the road).

What is this 'we'? How many of your Thai-Chinese friends do you bring along on ethnic thai squatter eviction day?

[YoungFarang13]

if it makes you guys feel better there are tons of Thais born from Chinese immigrants who are not wealthy. infact, there are so many Thais from Chinese immigrants that this whole debate is completely silly. If the Chinese succeeded, its probably cause they had the required skills or formula for success.

its kind of like when Americans complain about Indians owning all the 7/11's. They are mad because the Indians come to America, work 70 hours a week, save all their money and pool it into businesses and repeat while the Americans borrow as much money as possible and complain about working 40 hours and how they are going to sue their boss etc etc...

[marshbags]

I just hope they get my sky blue and white tracksuit back from the cleaners to me in time.

Does the owner know you are a Man City supporter yet ?????

oops sorry, yours have white on them.

I can just see the headlines on Saturday around the world commenting on how freely the relay went unchallenged ???

No mention of the non democratic clamp down of peaceful demonstrations in spite of the writtings of the constitution to allow them !!!!

marshbags

Edited April 18, 2008 by marshbags

[Heng]

The way the Chinese moved to Thailand (and many other places) is fine. Hard working economic migrants deserve their chance. Much to dislike about the 2nd and 3rd Thai / Chinese generations with regard to their treatment of others (Thais for example) though...

Again, it's just a dash of cinnamon.

Whole world blind? That's a little dramatic. It's not an eye for an eye. It's an eye + interest for an eye.

[Heng]

if it makes you guys feel better there are tons of Thais born from Chinese immigrants who are not wealthy. infact, there are so many Thais from Chinese immigrants that this whole debate is completely silly. If the Chinese succeeded, its probably cause they had the required skills or formula for success.

its kind of like when Americans complain about Indians owning all the 7/11's. They are mad because the Indians come to America, work 70 hours a week, save all their money and pool it into businesses and repeat while the Americans borrow as much money as possible and complain about working 40 hours and how they are going to sue their boss etc etc...

Just me, my clerk-general use helper person (sultry 'Aum' Patcharapa type fresh out of college still in uniform... I wish... handpicked by my wife, 40-ish and can pass for your garden variety librarian), and driver. In other words, an 'oasis rest stop' was out of the program either way yesterday.

And yes, I mention that often as well about the legions of poor Thai Chinese, but apparently some folks prefer to direct their tunnel vision resentment towards the minority 15-20% that own much of the country. Great example with the Indians. We're rather close with two families that followed that stereotypical formula, although one with minimarts and the other with KFC's. That was 15 years ago, now people would have to whinge about them "taking over" the local construction equipment rental and auto body shop industry.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Heng