My Ex (or Not)

[Ijustwannateach]

Sometime about November of last year, I met a young fellow, whom I'll call O.

He's changed my life 3 times so far, and I'd like to write more about him.

I went to an afternoon lunch of my gay friends on Gay Pride Day. Some of my friends' friends from Europe were in town, and they had brought along a young Thai fellow, O. O was shortish and slight, with an unfortunate mop of "Herman Munster" style hair [which is apparently popular with the senior uni students these days]. His complexion was not terribly good- still suffering from adolescent hormonal afflictions- but his broad smile and open expression were appealing. He was pretty quiet during our lunch, and what he did say was directed towards the Thai boyfriend of one of my friends there. I assumed he was the date of one of the Dutch gentlemen next to him, and so I went into automatic "no-flirting" mode with him. However, as the day went on, including an afternoon rowing in Lumphini Park before the actual parade [which, unfortunately, I felt was extremely poorly organized and insipid this year], I was convinced he was flirting with me.

While flattering, I despise it when acquaintances' dates show inappropriate interest in me- I think it is only polite for people to maintain the facade of happy couplehood in public, whatever one's relationship arrangements are. I did sneak a glance at him when he removed his shirt in Lumphini to cool off after rowing- attractive, muscular, light colored skin offsetting his jet black hair.

After the parade some of us wandered off to a fancy tourist restaurant for dinner, considerately paid for by our Dutch visitors. O was positioned next to me, and I began to suspect a bit of collusion... confirmed later by SMS messages from my good friend asking me if I was interested, because O had no boyfriend [he explained the Dutch man was a former/intermittent dating interest for O, but only as a tourist- and both he and O wanted O to find a regular partner]. My friend's Thai boyfriend had also known O for a year or so, and could vouch for him as a "real" type. Would I like them to set me up for a date? You betcha!

[craftwork]

Well, I'm hooked - when's the next instalment?

[Ice Treasure]

Me too... get on with it :-0

[Ijustwannateach]

O. and I had a few dates at the beginning of December which worked out pretty well. Our tastes in movies overlap significantly, and though our music interests have a slight generation gap we don't abhor each others' CDs. We both will eat almost any kind of food, and O. is not one of those picky homebound Thais who can't stand to eat out- he's the first to suggest trying foods that he hasn't eaten before, even tasteless Japanese stuff . We're both very social and we would go out with various friends to sightsee, go rowing, play a bit of badminton, etc. Without getting too much into the steamy details, we also discovered at home that we are completely compatible and more than a little attracted to each other. It wasn't long before he was coming over 3 or 4 times a week.

However... and you knew there was a however coming, didn't you?... there were mysteries. O. had made it clear it was fairly closeted and didn't want to change that in a hurry for his mostly-straight friends or his family; yet, he was obviously a frequent fixture on Soi 4 to the point that he had friends among the waiters and bartenders there. O. had no job to speak of, and was from a poor Isaan family, yet he was a Ramkhamhaeng student with shares in rooms on both campuses. To add to the financial mystery, O. was not hurting for money in any perceivable way- he was taking taxis, buying clothes and CDs for himself [and even me!], and even treated me occasionally to drinks or dinner. I was initially flattered by this behavior.

We spent Christmas and New Year's together in a state of romantic bliss as declared boyfriends [the first time I had been willing to adopt this status with a Thai]. Both holidays saw us end up at his apartment (which he had reserved from his roommates to himself for the occasion). The room is very homely- typical Thai mansion furniture, a generation or so old, supplemented by a newer small fridge, desk, heavy metal posters, posters of Japanese teen idol Hideaki Takizawa (!), and of course a stereo, TV, and the normal stacks of pirated CDs and videos.

At Christmas, we arrived in his room late after merrymaking, and watched a video while snuggling together on the surprisingly comfortable floor mat bed. After a bit of [fade to black...] and [more fade to black...] and a nice soap-up in the tub- surprisingly, this old student housing block in Bang-na had bathrooms with tubs!- we settled in for a long winter's nap, or so we supposed.

BAM-BAM-BAM!

BAM-BAM-BAM!

Still dark in the room. I opened my eyes. O. was already up and looked panicked. He put a finger over his lips and headed to his door, which luckily for us had both a normal lock and an internal, padlocked gate- it was this keeping out the visitor. The entrance hall was narrow, next to the bathroom- so the visitor couldn't see me inside. I heard some whispering in Thai for a few minutes, then O. shut the door and came back.

[O., embarrassed and panicky]: "Sorry, we have to go."

[me, still groggy and uncomprehending]: "Uh??"

[O.]: "My friend come, with his girlfriend, from his hometown to stay with me. I say I have a girl here who is very shy. So they go away but I have to let them stay here. They come back in two hours. Can we go to your room?"

[me, grumpy]: "Oh, ok."

Two hours later we were in my room sleeping it off. O. had been very apologetic on the way and seemed so abashed by the incident that I didn't feel any further pressure from me was necessary- though I did indicate to him I wouldn't want this to happen again if I stayed at his place, and he promised it wouldn't.

On New Year's Eve, after watching the fireworks go off at Saphan Taksin Bridge, we repeated the experiment and things went just fine- so fine, in fact, that we didn't LEAVE his room, except for brief forays to bring back food, for 3 days.

"Steven"

[astral]

Recently I was castigated for suggesting that a Commitment Ceremony would be too much for most Thai families.

The previous posting in this thread vindicates me.

It is still not acceptable to be overtly Gay back in the village where you grew up.

Away from the family pressures is OK, but at home we have to comform.

It also fits in with another thread where someone was looking for older Gays.

They have got married to nice girls.

It is not just the guys either, the girls have the same pressures from the family

to find a husband and start a family of their own.

Good luck to the main poster here.

Just keep in low key and you will be fine.

[Ijustwannateach]

To be fair, though my friend IS very closeted, he's one of the most extreme cases I've known among my Thai gay acquaintances/friends- and one of the least gay-identified. If it weren't for sheer physical attraction ( ) I don't think he would've made any contacts in the gay world at all. Partly this is because he comes from a very "macho" set (for Thailand). I think gays who grow up more or less obviously gay have the way already paved for them by the expectations of family and friends and don't have to worry as much since there are no surprises.

More later!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, the rosy part's over (except you can still imagine the physical side of things about as hot as you want, 'cause it has been pretty consistently the whole time I've known him!).

As I've mentioned, my young feller (about 22, a RKH student) kept almost all of his "outside" life a secret from me. I never met any of his friends or family, and he didn't seem to have any "work." I had been informed that he was also dating a girl at the start of our relationship; I assumed that as time went on he would have to choose between us. Boy, was I wrong!

After the initial "honeymoon period" of two months or so, some other problems began to creep in. O would experience periods of great anger- a little thing that I said or did would set him off to the point that he wouldn't speak to me for hours, or would start to tease me in a bad way or say awful things about how he thought he could date whom he wanted. To his surprise, I started to respond to this behavior by leaving him, wherever we were, and going off and not calling him for a couple of days. Once we had planned to go to Koh Samet on the weekend, but the night before he had been particularly sulky and angry for no good reason (I was tired and had refused to go drinking). I sent him home. The next day, he was surprised to find that I wasn't waiting at the bus station for him. Gradually, this kind of conditioning seemed to pay off, and the anger wasn't a problem anymore.

I think my guy had developed a rather aggressive catalog of ways to vent his anger at the world- for being poor, for having a fairly abusive family, for his father abandoning him- he regularly got into fights and was one of the popular sports figures while in high school. Aftewards, he became a boxer for awhile and trained for over 2 years. He was and is, as an associate of mine labelled him, "all boy."

Still, he was flexible. One of our first dates took place at last year's Christmas performance of the Messiah, and he lasted through the whole first half. We've watched gay-themed movies together, and he finds transvestites/kathoeys amusing. I think in many ways he wants to be MORE gay than he is. And how did he get so far in the first place?

The details are not entirely clear, but I think when he started using the internet one day he accidently launched one of those 'pop-up' traps, where web pages linked mainly to more and more pornographic sites come up faster than you can close them. Suddenly, he noticed a picture of a large, naked, white man- and he was hooked. Eventually, he figured out how to get to sites where you could send messages to just such men- and even photos- and he got himself hooked up with a few. Fortunately, one of the early ones was a Dutch man (mentioned earlier in this thread) who was a decent and loving friend, even though only in Thailand as a tourist. This man helped guide O. in discovering more about being gay, and continues to be his long-distance counsellor and friend to this day. He also helped O. out by paying for a course of English lessons [at ECC, of all places!].

Other details about this early gay life of O.'s were less clear. He discovered Soi 4 and the bars there through his Dutch friend, and took to going there a few times a month. He would get picked up by farang from time to time and taken to fancy hotels or sometimes modest apartments- but most of them always left. According to O., he had one long-ish relationship with a very rich man, but this man left when his business in Bangkok was finished. Another farang moved to Chiang Mai where he already had a boyfriend. O. discovered that his feelings for people became very deep very quickly- he wasn't very good at short flings. O. wanted a long-term relationship with a stable, normal person, not a tourist.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Hmmm.

The "anger" issue.

I had almost exactly the same from a Thai ex last year. Anger for no real reason. Sulks. He even "invented" phone calls from mysterious men in front of me, presumably to try and make me jealous.

Nothing doing. I didn't react.

So he would declare himself "not good boy for you..", leave the hotel and go back to his place for a while... expecting me to call him. I didn't. Eventually he called me. The third time this happened I said "..don't come back".

I read "Culture Shock" before all this, and was always cool heart jai yen with all this. He was surprised... although it didn't stop his little tantrums.

And I thought Thai's were the masters at not showing anger.

Wrong!

ChrisP

Edited October 29, 2004 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

As a side note about Thais individually and culturally, to follow up on your observation, Chris-

I think the Thais have a culture of denial. It is not simply hypocrisy or two-facedness, which is common in many countries- if there is some negative attribute which they wish to hide, they seem compelled not only to cover it up but to STRONGLY, VOCALLY deny it. This goes for so-called "Thai values" as well as individual character. For example,

THAI VALUES:

Thais are sexually conservative.

Thais are socially conservative.

Thais are calm and cool.

REALITIES:

Everone screws like rabbits.

Everyone has affairs.

Thais have terribly emotional storms.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS

I don't have many dates.

I don't go there.

I'm not materialistic.

Up to you!

I don't tell you lies!

REALITIES

I'm a slut.

It's my favorite place.

Show me the money!

I want it my way!

I'm a pathological liar!

Time after time, when I examine what my Thai friends/acquaintances take so much trouble to deny, I find the truth by reversing their denials. It's a technique I recommend, somewhat cynically.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

wow ... sounds like you do not in fact like it here or like Thai people.

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, I'm just being very honest about what I've observed. People in ALL countries are hypocritical and two-faced (and, for the most part, fairly ignorant), especially about sexual matters. It just happens that here in Thailand they go to great pains vocally to deny their actual self-perceived faults aloud. I don't know why/if anyone is actually fooled by it- appears to be some sort of psychological reflex here.

Once I was on a first date with a young man who went to GREAT pains to emphasize (in exactly these words, his English was excellent) that he was "not materialistic." He brought it up repeatedly. So I made an effort to mention how little my salary was (I understated it considerably) and - whammo! Never heard from him again! Every person in Thailand who has ever insisted he was not lying to me was, and you can just hear the mental eye-rolling going on whenever anyone talks about the Thai value of faithfulness to one's partners.

Not different in respect to hypocrisy from other places EXCEPT in this "announcement" respect. If you think people ARE fundamentally different here in this aspect then you're still in your "honeymoon" phase of cultural adjustment.

"Steven"

[slapdashkitty]

You go TEACH! Ur last two posts here as usual you have hit the nail on the head and said whet everyone thinks in private but will not say in public...but if you can get out of Soi 2-4 things do improve greatly but entree to those worlds is quite difficult to obtain, but once in, the dates and invitations roll in from quality individuals.

[strapadick2me]

.but if you can get out of Soi 2-4 things do improve greatly but entree to those worlds is quite difficult to obtain, but once in, the dates and invitations roll in from quality individuals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, what do you mean by this?

[slapdashkitty]

If you can find gay inividuals that share a common interest with you, you can participate in more social activities that are not "bar" oriented. I have one GWM friend who is really really into badminton-so he found another like minded gay guy-went to a party and met one of the nicest guys in BKK-I am so envious....if you can break into a group of people that you would never see in a bar things just seem to level outand you get to go to their parties, meet their friends....

[Ijustwannateach]

Getting back to the topic... let's see, where were we? Ah, yes, my ex, O.

The first big crack in the relationship was Valentine's Day. He gave me some big lie about how he had to spend the evening with his friends because he'd already promised some time back (really? like over three months when we became boyfriends?) he'd have dinner with them. I wasn't buying it- 'cause I knew how important these romantic holidays are to the Thais, even the Western ones.

He DID come by in the morning and give me a nice framed photo of himself and some flowers, but it wasn't enough- I wanted his presence- and in the evening (which I spent alone at home in my apartment, far outside the Bangkok city limits) I couldn't reach him on his cellphone- it mysteriously malfunctioned [he later claimed battery failure] which it had a tendency to do when convenient for him.

Speaking of the mobile phones, they evolved considerably while I was dating him. He started off with a fairly expensive-looking Nokia model with a color screen and a slightly musical tone. Suddenly, one day he showed up with one of the top-of-the-line Panasonic phones (the big console-looking ones with built-in camera that can even do E-banking for you securely). How did he get the money (probably about 20,000B) for this? "I have a friend working at a store so I got a discount." Wrong answer!

To make matters worse, during this period he ALSO picked up a portable CD player to the tune of 10,000B including fancy rechargeable battery system, and fancy 3000B headphones. Finally, he LOST the expensive phone (left it in a cab)! So he got yet ANOTHER phone, to the tune of 8000K. Just one month later his friend broke that one, and he showed up with yet ANOTHER phone (with built-in camera again) that probably cost about 8000K.

As if all that weren't fishy enough, I noticed the following expenses, which he made no effort to hide from me:

1-2000B a month sent home to mother

500B a month life insurance policy (payable to mother)

Shares in TWO apartments running about 4-5000B a month

Expensive habits, like riding in taxis and eating out, seeing movies in theatres with his friends, drinking at bars (where he kept bottles in his name), etc.

Frequent purchase of trendy clothes and accessories- seemed for awhile like every day he had something new from MBK.

After a bit of calculation, I finally figured that he was spending over 50-60K a month during the time that I knew him (more than my salary!!!) And yet he was an unemployed student.... right.

Eventually, even my friends noticed that he was too rich to be telling the truth. Even the nice Thai man who introduced us told me he thought something was wrong- probably that O. was getting income from other farang. I knew I couldn't let things go on like this.

Why not? some may ask. Why not live in style on the money of a fairly well-off kept boy boyfriend who costs me little/nothing and even buys things for me? Why rock the boat?

The reason is O's first change in my life- I was truly, deeply falling in love with him, more so than I had ever been with any other partner. How was I going to feel if Mr. Moneybags from Switzerland showed up one day demanding that my cutie run off with him for years or forever? Emotionally, this was a losing proposition, and I had to find the truth or give him up.

"Steven"

[remmy]

dump him

[donna]

So, Teach. What's the go now?

I think that many Thai men have it in their genes to lie exactly like O did. I had a bloke who lied and lied and lied. I caught him out eventually.

I am a forgiving soul (some will probably call me stoopid) so he did this twice to me.

The first time he was cheating with a girl who I knew and who worked with him. After that, he hung his head in shame and left the country for nearly 2 years to work. The little maggot returned later and was really sick. He couldn't walk, talk or eat. It seemed like all the muscles in his body had broken down. His family came down from Udon and asked me to go see him. I didn't really want to, but did so for his Mum. (The family NEVER asked me for any money in the time I was seeing him).

We went to Bumrungrad and they didn't have a clue what was going on, so they put him into the back of a pickup and took him back up to the village.

I was summoned up there 2 weeks later when I had a break from work. By the time I had arrived, he was up and walking and even managed a game of Ta Kraw. Amazing recovery. Amazing Thailand.

So, I sort of 'fell' into the same thing again, but made him move in with a friend - not with me. The first few weeks were great. We got along so well and were having a fun time.

Then, SNAFU again.

The lies started. The silences started. I found messages on his mobile phone with little cutesy love hearts in them. I called the number and it was his EX (the one he had before he was with me). I didn't really think much of it, but didn't forget about it. I had my guard up for sure.

When I was away working he would not have his mobile turned on.

Anyway, I decided to dump him, but had a couple of nights accommodation free in the Sth. I took him down there and dropped him like a hot potato. I was really upset about, even though I knew it was the right decision. He was doing the sob story and telling me that he loved me (read: my wallet) and didn't want me (read: my wallet) to go. (Although, I might add, that the second time around I held off paying for anything for him except his airfare to the Sth with me - discounted )

I went home to Australia and still wanted to be friends, so I called him and told him that I wanted to get him to a doctor to find out what was wrong with him once and for all because he kept on getting this 'thing'.

When I arrived, his phone was turned off. You guessed it. He had done a runner to Hat Yai to be with his 'ex' who had been sleeping with him all along whilst I was away working. Bitch. Both of them.

It ends up that she has been working as a hooker (Yes, I got checked for STD's even though we used condoms and came up safe) in Hat Yai for months. This 'illness' was checked by his mum who went to the temple. The general concensus in the village is that she has somehow made him consume her menstrual blood (aren't you lucky you don't do girls!) and it made him crazy for her. This is an old black magic trick, according to all of my female Thai friends.

But the good news is that I am well and truly over him and hope I never see the rotten maggot again. She deserves him and he deserves her as far as I am concerned.

Has this turned me off Thai men? Absolutely not.

Has this turned me off Men in general? Absolutely not.

Am I bitter and twisted like many men in this TV forum think? Nup. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I will just be careful in the future of whom I trust and whom I give my heart to.

There has to be some good ones out there somewhere and we all deserve a little lovin' in our lives.

You DO have go endure a few pricks before you get to the roses though.

Gee, I just realised how long that post was. Sorry if it bored you. It all looks so silly when you write it down, doesn't it?

[Ijustwannateach]

I made my first false break with O. around Songkran, when it became clear to me that he was lying about his income and unwilling, no matter how softly, softly I tried to convince him to talk to me about his life, to tell me the truth. A week or so later of calls every day crying and begging for me to reconsider, I told him that he would have to get a normal (i.e., non-bar-related) job where I could go and see him working if he wanted to keep dating me (incidentally, I recommend this for all those who have potentially dodgy partners).

He was reluctant, but agreed to do so without a time frame. Internally, I was giving him about 3 months before I would unilaterally give up on him completely. Of course, this affected our relationship negatively in almost every area. We were having more arguments and he was more moody.

However, he seemed to step up to bat. He had employment photos and copies of his high school papers made, and frequently went off to interview wearing his college uniform. He had his heart set on a job with Major Cineplex, because he loves movies, but he only made it to the second interview with them- he thinks he was not "cute" enough by their standards [it's true that most of the gay guys working there are more fem than O.; maybe that's what he meant].

At the same time, other areas of my life improved and I moved to a more convenient place in town- so convenient, in fact, that O. was over every other day. And then every day- and then he was keeping clothes in my closet. By midsummer [in the western sense] he was practically living with me, though still paying rent in his other room. The job hunting had virtually stopped, however, and I was steeling myself to leave him because it seemed to be only a matter of time. I dreaded it, though, because in one sense it was a dream fulfilled- a lovely, attractive guy living with me who loved me and genuinely found me attractive [his picture collection is full of images of men like me] and who, even though for fishy reasons, wasn't asking me to support his life.

I've seen what happens, however, when farang fail to set reasonable limits on their boundaries and what they'll put up with from their Thai partners. You wind up with the farang who has a Thai boyfriend who is married with kids, and also has a Thai boyfriend. All living together (sometimes without the farang!) in the house the farang bought, built, and paid for. I was not going to be that farang.

Fortunately, rather than leave me dithering and wondering whether to follow through with the ultimatum on the basis of no more evidence than just because, O. finally gave me every reason to dump him.

To be continued!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Donna, *I* enjoyed reading your story. I don't think the Thai guys are that different whether gay or straight- they all have some fundamental problems with the concept of "truth." I don't buy this supposed element of Thai culture I've heard about that omitting information is not the same as lying- it's deceptive and wrong and they know they're doing something wrong, otherwise they wouldn't feel like they had to hide anything.

I think the only defense against it is to make it clear that lying is not acceptable and gets them into trouble or even abandoned if it becomes too bad. Once bitten, twice shy, you know... that's a little bit what this thread is ultimately about. What I'm heading towards is that my guy has reformed, apparently, a great deal- and all the time has seemed very much in love. Normally, to believe this with a Thai guy would be a mistake- and reading my own story online I would probably think so, too. At the moment, however, he's employed and we seem to be doing well. It'll be a long time before I can really trust him, though.

In your case, though, dump him- *really*! He was just doing the dysfunctional "alcoholic" husband routine- apologize, get temporary forgiveness, which means it's ok to be bad all over again. Don't be the victim there anymore. Good luck!

"Steven"

[Boo]

Ijustwannateach  Today, 2004-12-08 03:41:55 Post #19 

Donna, *I* enjoyed reading your story. I don't think the Thai guys are that different whether gay or straight- they all have some fundamental problems with the concept of "truth."

I have to disagree with this comment, I think it's a generalisation of a whole race of people & unfair. I think that if a person is a liar/ cheat/ greedy/ abusive/ alcoholic etc it has nothing to do with their race but their own personality.

There are good & bad everywhere, the hard part is weeding out the bad from the good without becoming cynical & starting each new relationship without carrying too much of past experiences around with you. Imagine if you started dating a guy who treated you like crap cause his old farang b/f did the same to him, it would be unfair wouldn't it as you were not that guy, so don't treat these guys with a preconceived notion of what they will be like. Everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves.

[Ijustwannateach]

Fair enough- and nobody's perfect- but I find that as a generalisation where saving face runs up against being honest, saving face almost always wins- and this is not just referring to one Thai guy but all the Thais (men and women) I have known to some extent, plus a broad spectrum of the Thais I've heard about from other people. Perhaps it's more fair to call it a different set of priorities- and point well taken.

"Steven"

[kat]

Boo, I'm sorry to have a run-in with you on this again, but I have to disagree with you. The face issue is a cultural issue. I agree that you must take every individual as one person, but we would be blind and dishonest to say that there are no cultural differences. And the lying issue is a very frequent and common pattern. It doesn't mean that all Thais lie, but it does seem to be a very dominant cultural pattern, and a widely experienced one at that.

[Boo]

Kat, the only part of stevens argument that I disagreed with was that he used the phrase;

"I don't think the Thai guys are that different whether gay or straight- they all have some fundamental problems with the concept of "truth." "

The issue of face IS a cultural one to a degree but in my experience most people would dislike losing face for any reason & sometimes back track or tell small lies to get out of it. But that is a different issue to the one I disagreed with. Lying is done by all races of people & I truly beleive that it's a personal misfortune to find yourself attached to a person like this & that the only course is to get out as soon as you can & move on.

[jdinasia]

Get used to it in this section Boo. Thai men are slagged off on constantly in here. I've tried to make that point repeatedly from more than one angle but it seems de riguer to equate all Thai men as liars and as being after the $$.

[slapdashkitty]

Well where are all the positive stories then? Kinda funny there are not many??

[kat]

Kat, the only part of stevens argument that I disagreed with was that he used the phrase;

"I don't think the Thai guys are that different whether gay or straight- they all have some fundamental problems with the concept of "truth." "

The issue of face IS a cultural one to a degree but in my experience most people would dislike losing face for any reason & sometimes back track or tell small lies to get out of it. But that is a different issue to the one I disagreed with. Lying is done by all races of people & I truly beleive that it's a personal misfortune to find yourself attached to a person like this & that the only course is to get out as soon as you can & move on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I hear what you're saying Boo, and I want to agree with you, but I'm afraid our experiences and perceptions are different. I'm going to be "true" to what I think, rather than concilatory, or popular, for that matter. Of course all people of all cultures and races lie, but my point is that there are different cultural values and perceptions of truth. This has been documented by anthropologists, sociologists, and journalists, as well as widely discussed as antidotes.

Truth as it is valued in Western Civilization is not the same value in Eastern Civilization. Cultural differences are of course experienced and absorbed in a broad sense and on an individual level. Therefore, many people in an East/West contradiction are going to experience a dissonance on a personal level when it comes to finding the truth here. I'm sure it works in reverse the other way (Eastern people and the West), but often times it is the way we pursue or display truth that is disagreeable - confrontation, directness, an immediate timeframe reference. Anyway, been thinking on this a long time, sorry if my perspective is "disagreeable". But apart from cultural theory it's also my practical truth, according to my personal experiences. Lucky for you it's been different.

[Boo]

Yep, Lucky for me it has. I try not to over analyse anything in life, particually not love as I think a couple have their own language & don't think you can put all people into a single box. I've said many times before that I think that people on a whole are good, thats my experieince & I try to look for the good in everyone, I'm no push over, ask anyone who's met me, I'll destroy anyone trying to hurt me or mine but I'm also very giving & objective in my views. I also strongly beleive that only you have the power to remove yourself from negative people & only will when you want to. Everyone has their own opinions & just because mine don't agree with yours it doesn't mean I'm trying to be popular or concilitory, they are just my veiws.

Socioligist, anthroplogists & journlists are only people with their own take on things, for every one that puts down thai people there will be another who praises their ways & culture, all personal perspective.

You & steven will hold your views because of the experiences you have had & I will hold mine for the ones I have had, doesn't make either one of us right but I'll continue to hold this view & I'll continue to disagree with people who generalise on someting they have a minor experience of. Until either one of you has met every thai man in thailand then I wont accept ;

"I don't think the Thai guys are that different whether gay or straight- they all have some fundamental problems with the concept of "truth"

[kat]

Cheers Boo. I respect your opinion. And I wasn't suggesting that you were being "concilatory or popular" in your views. I was just trying to state that it would be much easier and nicer for me to try and be that way in stating my views. But then I wouldn't be honest about my views. Since I respect your posts, in my thinking it is more important for me to be honest with you rather than concilatory or silent.

Anyway, we disagree on this, or have different ways of thinking about it. Either we can discuss it at length another time, or leave it where it is. I'm leaving this forum soon, so maybe we can discuss it another time, in another context.

Cheers.

[Boo]

Sorry Kat, I misread your post, things come across different sometimes in writing that it doesn't in words.

I'm happy to discuss this face to face one day (maybe over a nice bottle of wine) I also respect your views on this & agree to disagree

I just hope one day that you might meet people who change your mind a little.

Just out of cuiosity, why are you leaving thai visa?

Even though we disagree on somethings I've always enjoyed your posts & find them informative & well written. You'll be missed

[kat]

Thanks Boo. Respect you too, girl. And thanks to all the boys on this forum for so patiently tolerating two straight chicks conversing on your forum space

Hey, we are all foreigners, Thais, and humans together in this crazy world. Gay or straight.

I'll PM you Boo.