My Ex (or Not)

[boybrat]

got to admit, ijwt, have been following this thread for quite sometime. there is more drama in this thread than the exploits of brooke, ridge, and the rest of the forresters (ie, the people from the daytime soap, the bold and the beautiful) in a whole season. i like!

[ChrisP]

When Thai guys KNOW they're in the wrong.. and cannot avoid it any longer.. WHY do they always then try and "equal out" the wrong by trying to find something you did wrong (in some way) and make a weak comparison...?!

I get the same treatment....

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

^^Thanks, Usana and BB.

^Chris, yes, it's a common thing. A friend of mine has noticed a pattern in which Thais who want to break up don't simply say they want to, but invent or provoke a crisis with their bad behavior which creates some negative response by their boyfriends which can then be used as an excuse to have a blow up. It all seems to be related to not taking responsibility and saving face.

This is one reason (aside from there not really being much of a point) that I haven't actually tried to ask O. what actually happened- in fact, though I have my suspicions, I still don't know for sure exactly where he went or with whom. It would actually be more unpleasant for him to have to talk about and take responsibility for lying than it would simply getting caught. I can tease him about it a little when I talk to him these days ("oh, have you been off to Hong Kong again with your German?"), but whenever the subject comes up he tells me he doesn't want to talk about it.

"Steven"

[boybrat]

i do agree with chrisp, though i must admit that thai guys arent the only ones to use the very same tactic. i find guys who do that bloody annoying, immature and pathetic. honestly, it is not THAT difficult to admit to your screwups, say "im sorry, i screwed up, it wont happen again. blablabla, MEAN WHAT WAS SAID, and have mindblowing make-up sex afterwards.

both my partner and i agree that for a relationship to work, there must be trust, respect and honesty. i always tell my partner the truth. have got no respect for liars. (that has its flaws though cos i DO NOT candycoat my words. many people seem to have some trouble with that. they prefer to say what they want the other person to hear. not me. im a ruthless bitch. heheh!). am not what the thais call as "sweetmouthed" person. i prefer to tell it as it is. my partner would often sulk and say "i said 'be honest. NOT brutal!' "

i respect my partner and his privacy. have never even opened his wallet nor have i ever used pc. heck, come to think of it, ive never touched his mobile phone. why? cos i trust him. i trust him and he trusts me.

[Ijustwannateach]

Lucky pair, you are!

[dukkha]

Acknowledge JD in quoting me....we obviously see some of the world the same way...comforting in a funny old way...sad that you left Hua Hin, we may have shared some pithy, aphoristic moments..

Ciao

Dukkha ( please note my spelling of said concept of 'suffering',,)

[PeaceBlondie]

The moderators have decided to delete the bickering posts; they're just too, too bitchy. It's a shame, too, because some of the bickering posts also included some comments that were on the topic.

Please feel free to carry on. Hopefully, somebody's post will not become a self-fulfilling prophecy, that somebody will want to leave just because one of their posts was deleted. Thank you.

[dukkha]

The moderators have decided to delete the bickering posts; they're just too, too bitchy. It's a shame, too, because some of the bickering posts also included some comments that were on the topic.

Please feel free to carry on. Hopefully, somebody's post will not become a self-fulfilling prophecy, that somebody will want to leave just because one of their posts was deleted. Thank you.

My thanks to Pacebianco for his intelligent assessment of the current trend emerging....

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, mods, for deleting the crap, including mine. I've mostly ignored it in the past, but that doesn't seem to get the message across sometimes.

Getting back to the, um, topic:

O. and I use the same gym- the one I paid for because I am employed and have money, and the one his fairy godfathers from Amsterdam paid for for him.

A couple of days after the argument I last reported on, I saw O. at the gym in passing. I decided it would be best simply to pretend I hadn't seen him. He wasn't having it that way, however. While I was on a treadmill, he came up beside me and said, "Hello."

I wasn't ready to talk with him. I just looked away. He stormed past, fuming and upset.

Later, when I had finished on the treadmill and was going to use the weight machines, I noticed that he was sitting and stewing rather dramatically on one of the weight benches. Everyone was staying well away from him, as the pressure coming from him was evident.

A few days after that, I was calmer and I decided that even if he had been his old lying self yet again, he was enough of a friend that I needed to negotiate a new part of our relationship. At the very least, it wasn't wise to throw away a friendship that had had some very good parts. I sent him an SMS:

"I'm sorry that I was rude and mean to you. I miss you and I don't want to hurt you, but I can't let you hurt me anymore with your dishonesty."

He wrote back very quickly:

"Thank you for saying your sorry. I just want to say you are not the only one who is feeling bad."

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

After that, for roughly a month, O. and I didn't meet at all, even at the gym. I began to cool down a bit.

One night we did meet outside the gym, and O. insisted we eat together at one of the tiny local noodle stalls. As I spoke with him, I realised I wasn't over it- I began to get angrier and angrier even as we were sitting there. O. was spinning fantasy plans for his life as usual- he was going to be in a rock band, he had met this or that metal star, he was going to spend more time with his friends in the police hospital.

Job? What job?

So the question hanging over his head still remained- where does he get his money? How does he live? Questions which have not diminished in importance from the Victorian era of England to the current Victorian era of Thailand.

When I asked him how his trip had been:

"Yes, it was fun. But not with a good result. I don't want to talk about it."

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

After this point for a few weeks O. and I didn't meet again, but he called me two or three times a week. We didn't try to have a serious talk or get into any "issues," just "how are you, how are things."

Towards the end of the year I began to be a bit sick with a serious illness. For awhile I was in and out of the hospital. O. heard about this and came to nurse me while I was at home. It was the first time I had seen him since the gym. He was very sweet.

On Christmas day he gave me several nice gifts; I had nothing to give him in return. He said, "That's ok- you are farang so you should get gifts on Christmas. It's normal." I gave him a long hug.

"By the way, cutie," he said, "around New Year's my Mom is coming to Bangkok. Do you want to meet her?"

"Steven"

[WilliamIV]

I think it would be truer to say that Oscar fell in love with Steven ...

Maybe they are going to get back together ...

Along with many other readers here - I just can't wait to get up to the present ...

But I think Steven is "Dragging" it out very nicely !!!!

Bill

Edited January 30, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[americana]

I am detecting some hostility from you Steve. Very well I shall leave you to your dedicated readers. A man of learning and refinement such as your self deserves a window to express themselves.

[Ijustwannateach]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...sult_type=posts

[Ijustwannateach]

Since this thread has gotten somewhat longer, there may be fans out there who have various questions to ask but are too shy to do so; conversely some of my "fans" have raised potentially valid points but in such an inappropriate way that I will not respond to them directly. So, I have decided to post an imaginary Frequently Asked Questions section along with my responses, which I hope will prove to be both informative and entertaining. P.S. There is some irony involved, which may confuse some readers. Be careful.

FAQ 1

Q: Why are you so handsome and big? Nice, big man.

A: I'm just lucky, I suppose. Or it could be part of my deal with the devil, which allows me to post on the Internet entirely by mental osmosis, racking up large post counts which (as others recognise) could only be the work of the devil.

Q: Are you as stupid as you look? Do you look as stupid as you are?

A: Both are impossible. Seriously, though, a number of my more polite spectators have commented that in the course of this relationship I seem a bit, well, naive. I'm not denying that in fact I was a bit naive (I hope becoming less so every day); however, I think it's easy for my readers to forget that in writing this story I am sifting through many details which were not necessarily evident as warning signs or troubles at the beginning of the relationship. To cover them up in the same way that would give a reader the real experience I had would make for a very boring (yes, even more boring than this thread of which you have now unwillingly suffered 13 pages) and much, much longer story indeed. So it's a little unfair to call me naive for not noticing at the time the very things that I am at pains to make sure my readers notice in retrospect.

Furthermore, I was introduced to O. through the most trustworthy sources and for some time there was no direct evidence that anything was terribly wrong- not until I was so, so, so, so, so, so, so bad and looked in his wallet, in fact, which was a horrible thing to do to someone who was so nice and good and honest, even though I was so naive to have dated him and trusted him and never should have gone out with someone who was introduced to me by my close friends in the first place.

I think what is more likely an act of naivete might be my going BACK to O. that first time, and I admit it- although I was still very much in love with him. However, it was an act of faith and optimism, and O. did improve and try his best at a different lifestyle for awhile, and except for his unfortunate second and/or third lives he is devoted to me and loves and cares for me very much, which I say even though I never say anything good about Thais and I am always pessimistic and negative.

Q: So why so long? Why so many details? Why not just cut to the chase?

A: You were raised on Cliff's Notes, weren't you? The joy is in the details, the real adventure in travel is going there rather than arriving, the real... oh, never mind. If you don't have patience to read it, maybe you'd just better wait for it to end (yes, it will end, and not too long from now) and start from the ending and work backwards. Yes, I've been a bit of a tease, and I will talk more seriously in the course of these FAQs regarding writing about relationships. For now, I just want to say that I'm glad to see that this story has been of some interest on this forum (which is not primarily a gay forum) not only despite, but perhaps because of its length and detail. A similarly popular story was Craftwork's, which might in one sense have been partly the inspiration for my beginning this story. He also suffered similar problems from hecklers (we wouldn't want to use the T-word, now, would we?) and I'm sorry to say seems to have been discouraged and given up (or perhaps he simply found better things to do). CW, if you are still reading this forum (and this thread), I'd very much like to get in touch with you again. Sadly, it takes a very thick skin and wise moderation to get through a discussion thread this long about a relationship in Thailand, and that perhaps explains why there are so few of them.

"Steven"

Edited January 31, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

I had seen some photos before of O.'s Mom- he has a very small folder of pictures from his childhood and high school days. The photo I am thinking of shows O. sitting with his Mom on the front steps of a very ramshackle cabin, which is their home. O. is about 10 or 11 years old, and though his body is smaller, his face is nearly identical- he hasn't changed much with age, as his brother has. His mother, an attractive, somewhat darker lady with similar features, sits with her arm around him. O. is beaming- it's the youngest photo I've seen of him, so there's a possibility it's one of his very first photos. After all, this was in the days when O. and his brother were walking several hours a day just to get water for their home. The photo doesn't show at all the tension that O. tells me there used to be as a result of his mother's rough treatment of him and his brother.

A life in Bangkok with home electronics and trips abroad to wherever is a long way to go for someone from his background- then again, frankly speaking, it is a long way for someone from my background, too.

Introducing me to his Mom at home is a big deal. Previously, he had joked that he would introduce us as if I was his teacher at his college graduation when (if ever) it happened. As far as I know, he has not mixed up his home life with any other farang he has dated (or any person he has dated at all). He has ambivalent feelings about his family, though he still cares about them, and he is deathly afraid of gossip in his home village.

However, I had seen this pattern before- whenever O. had screwed up badly, he would try to make amends by one of these introductions- when I initially left him, he had called me crying that he would come out to everyone and introduce me to his whole family. It never happened, of course. But this time he sounded serious.

I wasn't sure I wanted to do this. While it seemed clear that O. and I could still be good friends, I didn't think it would be the best thing to be making closer ties to someone that I really needed to be breaking away from- especially if this were an effort to get me back into the romantic relationship. However, things felt different in that regard, too. O. didn't seem to be lying to me anymore. If I asked him a question whose answer would embarrass him, he simply wouldn't tell me the answer, rather than lying as he would before.

"Does your German live in Bangkok or abroad?"

"I'm not going to tell you, cutie."

"Is he helping you with money."

"God!"

I took this to mean the answer to the first question was "Bangkok" and the answer to the second question was probably "yes," especially as O.'s means of support continued to be mysterious and opaque. However, he hadn't actually lied, which was new and an improvement.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

FAQ 2

Q: Isn't it true that you're simply a lowly English teacher, eating irradiated noodles out of a cardboard box on KSR, moaning and whining oversensitively about antigay slurs you only hallucinate on this board, seeing trolls at every turn in a paranoid fantasy world?

A: Yes.

Q: Then it's also true you're only writing this thread to impress people?

A: Instead of answering this question directly, I will mention a little thing called "projection." "Projection" is a psychological defense mechanism, characterised by a lack of imagination and empathy. When a person is unable or unwilling to imagine accurately how another feels, or lacks the information to do so, all he is left with is his own speculations and impressions- which he often proceeds to project upon the other person, despite having no accurate evidence for these impressions.

In this instance, for example, the question itself shows such a profound lack of empathy for why I might have written this thread that its contents are obviously something entirely from the questioner's psyche. For example, the questioner feels that my thread is, in fact, impressive. And lacking the empathy to generate another suitable explanation for why I might write such a thread, which has been continuing for over 2 years and 14 pages so far, heckled by certain highly mature and pleasant "fans" who are determined to end it, however impotently, and regenerating anew within me all the sadness, bitterness, and despair in recreating them as the original events engendered in my living them, it is the only thing he is left with. Therefore, it must be the reason I wrote the thread. An indirect and unintentional compliment, then.

Thank you very much.

I will answer the much more direct and important question, "why are you writing this thread?", on another occasion.

Q: Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near?

A: Just like me, they want to be close to you.

Q: Oh, c'mon. Isn't O. simply a sex worker? Doesn't his getting so much money from people prove that already? If he's hurt your feelings so much, why so coy?

A: It is indeed possible that at some point O. has accepted money for sex- there are so many people who have, in so many ways- unemployed wives, for instance. However, O. is clearly not the same as the type of guy who sits on a barstool waiting for anyone with cash to take him home, or even the type of guy who posts on the Internet waiting for the highest bidder. He is particular about whom he likes and becomes very emotionally attached. Our breakup(s) were not prompted by financial concerns but by dishonesty and infidelity.

Furthermore, I have made the point that most of O.'s money comes not from sexually questionable sources, but rather legally questionable ones. This may not be much better, but it is a difference.

As the answer to the first question shows, he certainly would not have chosen me over the many alternatives he had on the basis of money. He even made me move to a newer, better cardboard box! (the new one has a self-sealing top)

As the term "sex worker" tends to connote street walkers, hookers, or other generally "available" types, I feel the term is unsuitable for O., whatever or whoever he actually is.

"Steven"

Edited February 10, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

O. and I had cautiously resumed a certain friendship. We went to a few movies together, ate a few dinners. He slept over once or twice. Eventually he tried to initiate sex again.

I just hugged him, and felt emotionally paralyzed.

"I'm not ready to... I don't want to... " I was too confused myself to explain. And then I finally understood, internally. O. was going away. The part of my life which I shared with O. was at the beginning of its end, and that part was going to die. We could pretend, we could put it off, we could rehearse old patterns in a simalcrum of a relationship, but in the end O.'s dating life was going to be more and more about a certain German man, and not me. That was exactly what I wanted, too, but it hadn't hit me so personally yet, the realisation that part of my life was going to be over, or as we say when lives are over, was going to die.

I started crying. O. looked very concerned. "Maybe I shouldn't meet you, anymore, cutie."

"It's ok.... it's just that change hurts. I'll be ok."

The part of me holding onto O. died that evening, and I was free, free.

After that night, we became much better friends than we ever were before. He still cares so much for me, and I love him a lot, too. We certainly know each other very well. I was asking him where he went with the German on the first trip, and he was jokingly trying to lie to me.

"Myanmar."

"Oh, ok, your very rich German man can take you all the way to Burma. Soooooo nice- "

[O. kicks me]

"Cutie is so bad! Ok, I went to Sydney!"

"You can't get a visa there yet. Why don't you show me your passport?"

[he kicks me again]

"Ok,..."

"No, it's not that one, either."

"How does cutie know??"

He made several other attempts to lie, but before he'd even opened his mouth I laughed each time and said no. He can't lie to me anymore. He went to Singapore. Soon, he'll be going to Hong Kong.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

FAQ 3 - The Way You Were

Q: Are all of your relationships this bad?

A: No, some have been even worse!

Seriously, I have had better and worse relationships than this one. I suppose a thread on the worse ones would go on even longer than this one, but it would be off-topic- not related to Thailand.

Q: So why do some stupid foreigners choose these obviously dodgy no-good types to hang out with, rather than the angelic and perfect [insert the name of your partner's community], with whose members there are absolutely no problems or drawbacks?

A: I'm always bemused when, of all people, gays- whose members have fought tooth and nail for a century now to demedicalise, decriminalise, and legitimise their sexuality, especially debunking the notion that it is a "choice," criticise others for making poor "choices" of partners- as if they themselves have all that much "choice" about how their feelings behave, or indeed, anything else in the world. Instead of saying to themselves, "how lucky I am that, through no merit or accomplishment of my own, my feelings draw me to the kinds of people that leave no doubts in my mind or pains in my heart, to those with whom I can have an easy and unruffled relationship, sailing into the sunset on Cloud 9"; instead, they have a kind of ugly pride- "oh look, I'm smart enough to choose a good one- and that guy, he's so dumb."

O. was visiting me last week. We were teasing each other as usual. He said we broke up because I wouldn't agree to be his boyfriend again. I said we broke up because he wouldn't be a normal Thai person. Then he looked at me seriously for a moment and said, kind of thoughtfully, "Cutie- I think we both broke up- because we are both EVIL." We laughed at that, but there may be more than a grain of truth to it- and I also think there may be something in this reason for why we were drawn together so strongly to begin with.

I mentioned earlier that the Moog had challenged me (way back in this thread) on whether I would truly be attracted to O. without the "edge" he acquired by being somewhat bad. At the time, I simply rejected his idea and laughed at him, but I have been considering it more closely since [so, perhaps, has O.]. Which brings us almost to the question of why I write this thread, but I am not quite ready for that yet.

I have friends and acquaintances with much, much "worse" stories about their relationships in Thailand (and other places) than this one. Some of these relationships stabilised and continued much longer than mine with O. The pattern is universal, though: when one suggests to them that in their relationship not all is well, they only react by defense and denial. Frequently after they leave the relationship, it is as if they have awoken from a long dream: "Why did I put up with that for so long? Why didn't you tell me what a fool I was being?" The irony is that quite often those in such relationships are quick to judge others and point out, with much hubris, yet again: "Your relationship is not going well.." [... and mine is obviously just fantastic].

Many of the events in this thread were concurrent with the thread itself, though not necessarily in the same order or in the same time scale. I certainly made few enough excuses or cover for either my behavior or O.'s, and I certainly noticed where he was errant. When it became too much, I left him- twice now, and permanently. I think there are mistakes I wouldn't make again in dating, and perhaps that is the reason I had to have the relationship.

For those whose relationships are peachy-keen, "noodle-salad" style affairs ["As Good As It Gets"- I just loved that movie], I envy you. When I was a young gay man coming out, I envied the straight guys the normal, safe career and lifestyle tracks so easily open to them compared to me. But knowing that such-and-such type of person would make for a better relationship does not make having that relationship automatically possible, or even desirable, for every person, any more than my envying the straight guys as a young man could have made me straighter. It does seem to be possible to change bit by bit- otherwise no one would learn or try new things- but our attractions seem devilishly hardwired.

I was once handed a conundrum upon discussing a difficult relationship with a friend: "The type of person who will be best for you to date, will be one that you cannot pick out of a crowd." I think I am on the way to solving this conundrum. However, the fact I have a conundrum to solve does not make me inferior to the noodle-salad eaters of the world- and I hope at least a little bit more interesting.

I admit that upon seeing others whose relationships were a mess, I used to adopt the same superior attitude that so often prevails, even among those whose own relationships are awful. Upon consideration, I think that for many men, the mess is what they need, or at least what they want. With luck, it teaches them a new way. And even if it doesn't, in the end, it must be what they want: no one can force you to buy a car for him, or build a house for his family, against your will. If someone stays with a person who takes advantage or abuses him over and over again, it must fulfill some need, which is what these things are about in the end. It is only when you are tired of being used- and have thus learned your lesson- that you leave.

I think I'll leave things at that for now, or else I'm going to have to start explaining why I wrote this thread- and then I won't have time for dinner before my gym appointment.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Upon consideration, I think that for many men, the mess is what they need, or at least what they want. With luck, it teaches them a new way. And even if it doesn't, in the end, it must be what they want: no one can force you to buy a car for him, or build a house for his family, against your will. If someone stays with a person who takes advantage or abuses him over and over again, it must fulfill some need, which is what these things are about in the end.

Been there and done that. Eight years ago, I went through a turbulent fifteen months live-in relationship with an exquisitely beautiful, fascinating and exotic Russian guy who was studying and later working in London. Every single one of my friends told me that he was poison for me - although I fancy I detected that a few of them were just a little jealous........ Certainly, all heads would turn when he walked into a room.

By any "sensible" measure, the troubles hugely outweighed the pleasures during those fifteen months - although it was a relief at the end when I could stop being in love with him and switch to loving him. Still the case today - and reciprocated.

The experience made me think that if I had to choose between having an interesting or a happy time, then I would be bound to choose interesting - but that may be as in the Chinese "May you live in interesting times"...........

That said, I suspect that I'm unlikely to repeat it and maybe once is (more than?) enough for most of us. Still - no regrets.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the story, Steve. For some of us, it takes longer than others... I know of some people who are quite a bit older than me, but seem to be in much more troubled relationships than the one I am describing here... so I can be thankful that I am making progress with more time to spare.

"Steven"

[toyicebear]

Hi Stephen,

As i have said before i do enjoy your stories, i don not really care if they are true or fiction.

But in case they are true, here are some points to consider.....

Thai's are generally a mix of practicality and show....

Lets say as in your case 'O' , ok so he likes you. maybe even loves you, but is that enough?

NO WAY.....

He needs to show of with his friends....

This means..Money..Gold...and yes also in most cases a young hansome lover....

This does not reflect too much towards his feelings toward you, but it might help you to understand why he does the things he do....

Friends, familly and "face" counts very highly in this country......

And as you have stated yourself you are older and "quite big" , ie. if you do not shower him with money, gold etc.....He will be forced to save face by getting that elswhere...or else he will be laughing stock among his friends.... This also includes getting a young hansome "small husband"......

[PeaceBlondie]

The choices we make, ahh, yes. We're young and horny and eager, and a sweet beautiful thing comes into our life, cums into our life, and we think, "Oh, this is it, the best possible, this is love and lust and beauty and youth, " and on you go with that relationship. Perhaps you go on far beyond any time frame you should have gone, only to wake up one morning and finally come to your senses: "Why did I ever choose that partner? Why did I stay in the LTR when the alarm bells to get the h.e.l.l. out of Dodge were so loud and clear?"

Before most of you were born, Mickey and Sylvia sang a hit song, "Love....love is straaaaaaaange...."

[Ijustwannateach]

TIB, I think I'm with you in terms of a lot of what you say... He's in the closet with his friends and I think he at least has to pretend an interest in women or date someone from time to time to "pass..."

But he doesn't really have many Thai gay friends to impress with a *boy*friend, and he can't admit to the source of his goods to his straight Thai friends (unless he pretends it's from a woman- and maybe that's what he does!).

From his perspective, regarding physical attributes, I *am* as "good as it gets..." , and when we go out together he is quietly proud that I am the "handsomest" guy in the bar (I hasten to add, from his point of view!!!) While I am older than he is, I am for him still one of the "cutest" and perhaps even youngest chubby guys around.... most of the guys he's cheated on me with are a decade again or more older than I am.

I think there's something happening here more along the lines of the "tea money" networks that keep the country going. I think most young people honestly have a model of success that goes something like this:

1. Young person shows kreng jai and gets attention of older person (maybe by becoming his date).

2. Older person showers young person with gifts and attention.

3. Young person eventually becomes older person and does the same with another younger person....

4. Everyone lives happily ever after,

5. And so it goes.

It's not necessarily a bad model in some circumstances- however, when it gets mixed with the out-and-out moneyboyism of some types, it becomes confusing and unpleasant. When I confronted O. about why he still accepted such expensive presents from other farang even though he was dating me, he responded "well, *you* weren't going to buy those things for me, were you?" I've seen (and heard of) this kind of sense of entitlement from quite a number of young Thais, and this wasn't always from those who tried to date foreigners. When I respond with a question like "why should *anyone* buy those things for you- don't you have to work?" the question doesn't seem to compute in the way it naturally would make sense to most Westerners of my acquaintance.

It also seems to be an expectation on the part of Thais, even successful semi-Westernised Thais, whom I have discussed my relationships with. They all seem to expect that, having a younger partner, I am naturally extending some sort of financial subsidy to him. This has occasionally been true, but I kept it to a bare minimum as described herein.

Thanks for the speculations, though!

"Steven"

[pavlo]

Been ridden this 'column' and thinking my own status in our - mine and thai husband - relationship, actually we are married in face of law, of scandinavian, registrated relationship as they call it. Every couple has it own path, we have had it allready two and half years, inc. married 18 month.

I have been in Thailand, BKK, with him ; first two weeks, then one month and finaly one year. Learning, hope so, and he too about us. Now at the moment in very bad mak mak panic. He is coming next week to my country - well he has been here once to see me and family - but this time its more like staying for good !? After passport control we will go to see immigration office to apply permanent visa to stay and work.

I been 'hustler' around my whole life, never took money though, but there's more than 2000 'happy' memories around Europe to connect with me, some few hundreds with not so nice memories .... I was like go-go boy, more or less, always doing what I wanted and whom I wanted - ok rich bitch !!! But without any extra money, only what I get from my salary.

Tryed to love some boys/men in my life, cannot really engage with any and just move to next interest enough one when get bored.

Now in my middle age - or am I - got something very strange in my path - feel so strange and sometimes powerless and vice versa. Is this my menopause or am I getting sick some way ?

Found my spiritual home and the view of beauty in Siam, two days after arrived in town. Sorry no boys/mens involved. People where involved, everyday life and beauty to live it. Was more like coming home, finally, after going around Europe and south america. Feel like being here before, if you catch what I mean.

My man is from Isan.

Today they made for him big seremony in his home village, he just phone and promised to tell all about it on next Saturday, but allredy he was so proud of his family, tehy are pour but they are so good and rich in their hearts.

What I am moaning in here then, not sure, just no one to share my life at this moment or no one to understand a bit of it - or is there ?

Thanks for listening and hope the very best to everyone.

[WilliamIV]

I mentioned earlier that the Moog had challenged me (way back in this thread) on whether I would truly be attracted to O. without the "edge" he acquired by being somewhat bad. At the time, I simply rejected his idea and laughed at him, but I have been considering it more closely since [so, perhaps, has O.]. Which brings us almost to the question of why I write this thread, but I am not quite ready for that yet.

I think I'll leave things at that for now, or else I'm going to have to start explaining why I wrote this thread- and then I won't have time for dinner before my gym appointment.

"Steven"

Hi Steve,

So is it now time?

Are you ready to tell us why?

Bill

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh heh... good question... and the answer is I don't know, so I suppose I'm not ready yet. I'll think about it some more now.

[PeaceBlondie]

Meanwhile, I'll take a stab at why some gay men date "bad boys." -Maybe it's the same on either side of the heterosexual dating life, too.

Many of us were brought up to think that sex was bad, even sex in the missionary position on a private marital bed by two Catholics who weren't using birth control.

So, we got that "forbidden fruit" thrill having sex, and we understood we were a bad boy. So we looked for another bad boy to be naughty with.

My old roommate counselled psychotic women who were getting out of the loony bin. They would give him a long list (sometimes straight out of their purse) of the ideal man to date. He then asked why they always dated the opposite, the bad guys. "Oh, because these perfect men are so boring!"

Was Billy Joel correct: the sinners have more fun?

[dukkha]

Good boys go to heaven........Bad boys go........everywhere... Dukkha

[Papa_Lazarou]

why some gay men date "bad boys."

We all like to stare into the eye of the demon/hold the tiger by the tail.

You like them precisely because they are bad.

As George Michael sang in in his watershed song "Bad Boys"

"Bad Boys, woo hoo."

And in those days we all assumed that he was just too busy performing to get a girlfriend.