The High Cost Of Teaching Legally In Thailand

[PeaceBlondie]

We have said for years that every time the bar is raised and it becomes more expensive or more difficult to teach legally (or for schools to hire fully legal teachers and follow the rules), more teachers will 'go underground' and get hired by employers willing to take their chances.

FACT: Lots of teachers, including some good teachers, work without the proper visa, without a work permit.

FACT: Many teachers with proper visas and a work permit work outside the location listed on the WP, such as private lessons, secondary locations. And, they perform work not listed on the WP.

OBSERVATION, NOT CLEAR FACT: It would appear that the new TCT rules about the Thai culture course and its profuxional teachers' test will, for the next year or two, make it far more difficult to get teachers' licenses and relevant visas and work permits, as various provincial officers think these new requirements are 'serious.'

NOT FACT, but echoes of the recent past: police clearances were never fully implemented, but may still be listed as required by certain consulates for teachers to receive visas.

TEFL certification: some offices seem to require this.

BACHELOR DEGREE: again, some offices may require this.

We have done surveys, and it showed that in the past, it often took months or years to get legal. Now that these new requirements have come into force, it may take longer (including never).

Opinion: this is worth discussing, although we are not officially recommending that anybody drive 64 kph in a 60 kph zone. Let's not discuss exact ways of how to break this law, just whether it is often done and is worth the risk.

Is it really worth all the hassle to be legal? Should a teacher refuse to accept a job where they cannot make him legal?

[Ahnsahn]

Excellent points and I commend you on focusing on this problem!!!

I don't have a B.A. degree but have been following this for over 2 years in hopes that the 'Powers To Be'

in LOS would one day make it possible for capable native English speakers with TEFL certification to teach English 'legally'.

I've practically given up hope of ever teaching because of the way the 'Powers To Be' keep raising the (regulatory) bar.

Edited April 25, 2008 by george
Formatting, please don't quote the whole article

[CaptainNemo]

Yeah, I missed the part where you explained what's wrong with a (developing) country insisting that foreign (teaching) employees meet similar professional standards to what they would have to in their own country. After all, the purpose of having these conditions is not to "have a go" at foreigners; rather, it's to provide the best quality education possible to Thais, to improve Thailand's image and confidence as a serious economy.

[cocopops]

Yeah, I missed the part where you explained what's wrong with a (developing) country insisting that foreign (teaching) employees meet similar professional standards to what they would have to in their own country.

Because demand is greater than supply? There is no reason to believe that preventing the unauthorized teachers from teaching will suddenly cause thousands of qualified individuals to arrive in Thailand ready to service the local market at a price it can reasonably be expected to pay.

Edited April 25, 2008 by cocopops

[lingyai]

I do think that teachers should have some type of training and (real) certificate and English/grammer tests before teaching. I don't think that all areas of the country can afford to have a person with a BA. As a native speaker & college grad I know that just having a degree doesn't mean one could teach English, I can't remember all the rules I just know them by default but might not be able to explain them well.

So yes to certification but needing a degree no. Yes some universities and schools can afford more expensive degreed talent but I am sure the parents of Thai kids in poorer areas would rather have a decent teacher who has training and is a native speaker, to no teacher all.

It is these kids that will be hurt by some of these rules.

[Guest Bellini]

Why do not more native English teachers who fully meet all requirements under Thai laws and regulations apply for work in Thailand and then receive co-operation from the schools to obtain a work permit?

[makescents]

Why should they (the Thais) have to put up with students, misfits, and drop-outs on extended gap years and holidays, instead of proper professionals?

Is it any wonder that even Thai students you encounter from Rajabhats "taught" by alleged professionals talk in mangled pidgin English, and couldn't even pass a GCSE in English as a foreign language. There are too many so-called English teachers bumming around in Asia from Thailand to Tokyo.

These teachers are the exception, not the rule.

Fact is Thailand has extremely high standards for teaching English, far higher than some more developed countries, Hong Kong for example.

You don't need a Bachelors Degree to be capable of teaching English to Level 2 (GCSE), however teachers who wish to teach post GCSE should be required to hold such qualifications.

Thailand should be looking at getting these teachers legal so that they can contribute more to the economy and education. They could do with a better system to prevent Paedophiles teaching but that's a topic in itself...

MC

[waza]

you pay peanuts you get monkeys........I have a Bachelors degree, and have considered becoming an English teacher in Thailand, but it is hard to take a 150,000 baht drop in pay per month.

Edited April 25, 2008 by waza

[gbswales]

The reason more highly qualified teachers dont apply for jobs in Thailand is because they cant afford to. Having a degree is no guarantee of quality and many teachers who have undertaken professional language training may be more competent. As others have said the large universities may be able to afford qualified teachers but they are not reaching the poorer less advantaged areas - all teachers should be measured by their performance as qualifications mean diddly squat

[JiveTalker]

Yeah, I missed the part where you explained what's wrong with a (developing) country insisting that foreign (teaching) employees meet similar professional standards to what they would have to in their own country. After all, the purpose of having these conditions is not to "have a go" at foreigners; rather, it's to provide the best quality education possible to Thais, to improve Thailand's image and confidence as a serious economy.

Why should they (the Thais) have to put up with students, misfits, and drop-outs on extended gap years and holidays, instead of proper professionals?

Is it any wonder that even Thai students you encounter from Rajabhats "taught" by alleged professionals talk in mangled pidgin English, and couldn't even pass a GCSE in English as a foreign language. There are too many so-called English teachers bumming around in Asia from Thailand to Tokyo.

You missed a hel_l of a lot. Frankly your post just displays a complete lack of knowledge of the teaching industry in Thailand. There are a few misfits teaching here illegally but they are generally employed by schools trying to save money. The OP raises a valid point. It's harder for us that are here legally. I've been working here for over 3 years and now this teaching license has changed everything. There have been no clear rules and regulations and there is a good chance many of us could be illegal soon, unless the government clarifies the situation.

I want to remain here (for the time being) but don't really know where I stand.

[perkie173]

I am English, have an A in both GCSE English language and literature and an A in A Level English Literature. I am also currently doing a TEFL course with the hope of travelling next year and teaching. Me and my boyfriend looked into doing a degree through the Open University and this takes 6 years. Whilst we are both going to do a degree I would like to go over to Thailand to teach next year. If this doesn't happen the chances are we will be back in England within 12 months

[Rionoir]

It seems completely ridiculous to me to require a bachelors degree, yet allow the bachelors degree to be in any course of study. I know for a fact that most of the teachers I see online continually berating those who teach without a BA (see this on ajaarn more than here btw... there are some nasty people over there who think their crap doesn't stink cuz they have a piece of paper with their name on it) don't even hold a degree in English... someone please explain to me how that makes anyone more capable to teach.

My opinion: require that teachers take a MOE-approved TEFL course (if they haven't already), and maybe pass a standardized test to prove their English proficiency. Beyond that... I fail to see how someone with a degree in mathematics or history is any more capable to teach English than someone without that degree.

Thailand may WANT the best and most qualified teachers in the world to be teaching their students... but there is a shortage of teachers the way it is... raising the qualifications isn't going to make teachers magically appear, it is going to make the problem worse.

[aqua4]

There always seems to be this comparison with Thailand, Japan and Korea.

Put it into perspective. In Korea you are going to be getting a salary of US$ 2,500 per month plus. That is 80,000 Baht a month. In Thailand they will pay you 30,000 Baht a month and refuse to pay for holidays which means you get a salary for 9 months of the year. That equates to 22,500 Baht a month.

Korea : 80,000 Baht a month

Thailand : 22,500 Baht a month

Who gets the most qualified teachers? You don't need to be a brain surgeon to work it out. Add on all the new costs in Thailand. Cultural course, new education course pay for your work permit. All in all you are going to have to spend another 60,000 Baht to earn your 22,500 Baht a month. Does that make financial sense?

[Ahnsahn]

I do think that teachers should have some type of training and (real) certificate and English/grammer tests before teaching. I don't think that all areas of the country can afford to have a person with a BA. As a native speaker & college grad I know that just having a degree doesn't mean one could teach English, I can't remember all the rules I just know them by default but might not be able to explain them well.

So yes to certification but needing a degree no. Yes some universities and schools can afford more expensive degreed talent but I am sure the parents of Thai kids in poorer areas would rather have a decent teacher who has training and is a native speaker, to no teacher all.

It is these kids that will be hurt by some of these rules.

Right on! You hit the nail on the head!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd like to remind posters in this thread to stick to the topic, which is the murkiness of qualifications, and avoid attempts to cast English teachers in Thailand in a bad light (which is not permitted on this forum). It's nice to see some new faces here.

"S"

[scyriacus]

i'm just wondering, why so many people want to 'teach' in thailand. this is simply impossible! this country has a socalled "no fail policy", which means, that nearly every student is 'taught' by thousands of incapable 'teachers' but after many years of this torture (or joke?) cannot speak more than: "hello, what's your name? where do you come from?" what they desperately need are no more 'teachers', but someone who really makes them communicate in english! forget all your socalled qualifications, what you really need here is a BIG heart and lots of patience (with your students, with the authorities and with yourself). make them speak pidgin first and leave your culture, shakespeare & grammar for the advanced few. thailand needs no bachelors, masters, laws & regulations, it needs HELP! if only bangkok would understand that (but i fear, THEY would rather keep their students stupid, than educate them effectively).....btw, just look at their tv programs, soap operas and game shows and you know all you need about the thai military approach to education!

[Guest Bellini]

<snip>what they desperately need are no more 'teachers', but someone who really makes them communicate in english!<snip>

How can schools in Thailand get these teachers? Would the schools have to offer a higher salary and arrange a work permit?

[farang2002]

The reason more highly qualified teachers dont apply for jobs in Thailand is because they cant afford to. Having a degree is no guarantee of quality and many teachers who have undertaken professional language training may be more competent. As others have said the large universities may be able to afford qualified teachers but they are not reaching the poorer less advantaged areas - all teachers should be measured by their performance as qualifications mean diddly squat

I'm a university grad and would make a terrible teacher. My brother has never attended college, but is reported he's an excellent English teacher and has been successfully teaching in Thailand for 22 yrs.

[quisie]

May I ask what, exactly, the new regulations are and what they entail?

If this would be too long winded then if we could maybe have a url please.

Many thanks

[re_fuse]

, it's to provide the best quality education possible to Thais, to improve Thailand's image and confidence as a serious economy.

They could do that by paying an appropriate remuneration with statutory minimum salarium to professional teachers Edited April 25, 2008 by re_fuse

[Guest Bellini]

<snip> salarium <snip>

Is there much demand for foreign teachers of Latin in Thailand? I'd be willing to give it a shot, but I wouldn't be cheap.

[CaptainNemo]

Yeah, I missed the part where you explained what's wrong with a (developing) country insisting that foreign (teaching) employees meet similar professional standards to what they would have to in their own country.

Because demand is greater than supply? There is no reason to believe that preventing the unauthorized teachers from teaching will suddenly cause thousands of qualified individuals to arrive in Thailand ready to service the local market at a price it can reasonably be expected to pay.

So what? What's demand and supply got to do with a the rightness and wrongness of a country insisting on equal standards?

Isn't at best a little patronising to be discussing this topic implicit with the prejudice that it is somehow morally acceptable for Thais to accept lower standards than you would accept in your own country yourself? Quality is surely more likely to be better than quantity.

Just because change won't happen "suddenly", it does not follow that you should not promulgate change.

Where's the evidence that Thais can't teach themselves English as well as they need to? Many of us are capable of learning their language without a teacher.

If they need a more quality certificate and training, then allow it to have the same prestige as it would for us in our countries to have a professional qualification... let Thai universities have highly qualified teachers from abroad to help produce high quality Thai English-Language graduates, who can go on and service the market themselves without relying on (by virtue of the fact that they don't possess a degree in teaching or a degree and post-grad certificate, and are thus not professionals in the true sense) amateur teachers?

After all, how many of us at school had foreign language teachers who were graduates of the language, rather than native speakers?

[CaptainNemo]

The reason more highly qualified teachers dont apply for jobs in Thailand is because they cant afford to. Having a degree is no guarantee of quality and many teachers who have undertaken professional language training may be more competent. As others have said the large universities may be able to afford qualified teachers but they are not reaching the poorer less advantaged areas - all teachers should be measured by their performance as qualifications mean diddly squat

I'm a university grad and would make a terrible teacher. My brother has never attended college, but is reported he's an excellent English teacher and has been successfully teaching in Thailand for 22 yrs.

Good idea, let's not bother with qualifications... all that time at uni, what's the point eh!

Clearly, If it's made harder to be a teacher in Thailand, by virtue of the fact that you have to meet similar standards to what you would in the west, then the market would respond by increasing wages to a level that those with at least a 2.2 BEd could cope with.

BTW. I like the contradiction that "many teachers who have undertaken professional language training may be more competent... ...all teachers should be measured by their performance as qualifications mean diddly squat"

Surely what you really mean is, qualifications + specific TEFL trained ability = a good English teacher for Thailand.

Crack down on those who don't meet the standard, and watch the wage and prestige rise.

[CaptainNemo]

, it's to provide the best quality education possible to Thais, to improve Thailand's image and confidence as a serious economy.

They could do that by paying an appropriate remuneration with statutory minimum salarium to professional teachers

Yeah, and a higher standard resulting in less teachers would be the catalyst for that.

[Maestro]

...Isn't at best a little patronising to be discussing this topic implicit with the prejudice that it is somehow morally acceptable for Thais to accept lower standards than you would accept in your own country yourself? Quality is surely more likely to be better than quantity.

Precisely. The problem, I gather, seems to be that that most Thai schools do not have the money to employ quality.

--

Maestro

[CaptainNemo]

Why should they (the Thais) have to put up with students, misfits, and drop-outs on extended gap years and holidays, instead of proper professionals?

Is it any wonder that even Thai students you encounter from Rajabhats "taught" by alleged professionals talk in mangled pidgin English, and couldn't even pass a GCSE in English as a foreign language. There are too many so-called English teachers bumming around in Asia from Thailand to Tokyo.

These teachers are the exception, not the rule.

Fact is Thailand has extremely high standards for teaching English, far higher than some more developed countries, Hong Kong for example.

You don't need a Bachelors Degree to be capable of teaching English to Level 2 (GCSE), however teachers who wish to teach post GCSE should be required to hold such qualifications.

Thailand should be looking at getting these teachers legal so that they can contribute more to the economy and education. They could do with a better system to prevent Paedophiles teaching but that's a topic in itself...

MC

That's as maybe, but we all know what a degree really means... it's a reliable international reference for someone with a certain level of transferable skills and credibility; and most of use know that a degree sorts the wheat from the chaff with some certainty... and reduces the problem of identifying nonces.

How about a simple test... think of a child you know: a brother, sister, son, daughter, niece, nephew... who would you rather have them taught by?

Now, why would you expect a Thai to want less?

[Guest Bellini]

Could it be that somebody somewhere in the Thai government is deliberately making it difficult (strict requirements for teachers of English but insufficient budget to employ teachers meeting these requirements) for Thai students to receive good instruction in the English language? But what motive would somebody have to do so?

[norbdemn]

PB,

Good job for bringing up this thread! I hope all is well

- I used to correspond with you through Ajarn (username - traveler, I am based in the SF Bay Area).

During my time in Thailand (2004 - 2006 - before they started to implement the so-called 'new rules'), I was never legal. It was not by choice though, it was because of the 'Thai way' the Admins handled foreigner's paperwork - often delayed. I hate to sound like a pessimist, but these new rules seem like a way for authorities to make even more money from foreigners. True, I believe it is necessary to regulate foreigners but it should be distributed equally between our Thai counterparts. So our Thai counterparts should also be penalized for not furnishing foreign teachers with the necessary paperwork in a timely fashion. Otherwise, this isn't going to work. I do not know where these rules stand now since it has been awhile since I lived there, but they need to come up with a more manageable process.

[CaptainNemo]

...Isn't at best a little patronising to be discussing this topic implicit with the prejudice that it is somehow morally acceptable for Thais to accept lower standards than you would accept in your own country yourself? Quality is surely more likely to be better than quantity.

Precisely. The problem, I gather, seems to be that that most Thai schools do not have the money to employ quality.

--

Maestro

The problem I see is one of POV.

You have:

a. a short-term view that says, Thai people need educating now, lets lower the standard indefinitely to widen access to the maximum possible extent, regardless of the various problems already mentioned; and,

b. a long-term view that says, Thailand deserves a system that'll produce quality in a few locations, and that this will over time filter down around the country as fewer, but better quality native teachers are trained and dispersed to other locations to train others in time.

The former, suits most foreigners, as the bar is nice and low: nicer and lower than it would be back home if they genuinely wanted to be teachers, rather than just using it as a means of having an extended holiday.

The latter, is better for Thais, and let's not forget... it's how it happened in the UK... first there was only a couple of unis for centuries... then a few "outposts" set up "in the provinces" about 100-200 years ago... and even more over the last 50 years.

This is what's best for the Thais... the question is really, are those who are whingeing about the bar being raised, thinking about what's best for the long term prospects of education in Thailand - and all it means in terms of ultimately contributing to the improvement of knowledge, transparency, and democracy... or are they just thinking about the fact that they are going to have to go back home and do a proper degree in order to become what the Thais (and I) regard as a professional teacher that's good for Thailand?

[CaptainNemo]

Could it be that somebody somewhere in the Thai government is deliberately making it difficult (strict requirements for teachers of English but insufficient budget to employ teachers meeting these requirements) for Thai students to receive good instruction in the English language? But what motive would somebody have to do so?

What, are you suggesting that China and Japan would pay bribes to compete to have Thais learn their languages as the primary ones so as to gradually construct a symbiotic relationship of food and tech transfer... and to reduce the amount of Anglophone foreigners getting wed to Thai girls and "westernising" the nation by sheer weight of numbers and economic impact? ...a bit far fetched!