Younger Thai Girls

[edwardandtubs]

Then of course, there is the opposite issue, when it seems like every shop I walk past has exactly what I need, in my size, in my colour, etc etc - or so say the overly ambitious staff yelling "take a look please", and trying to drag me in by the arm. I can barely walk into some shops without being harrassed by shop assistants the second you pause. Young Thai ladies and effeminant guys are probably the worst. After Indian tailors of course.

I like shop assistants to keep a discrete distance (ie far enough away they can't keeping touching me plus, say, another 5 metres), and not hold up every single thing I might just possibly be looking for. If you stare at a shirt for more than 5 seconds, you'll have one person holding it against your back insisting that it "fit good naaaaaa farang size import jing", another one on your arm trying to sell you a belt or a clock or something, and a third one shoving a calculator in your face with a price on it, all without you saying a word. So many times I just walk away. Over-eagerness / poor staff training costs these businesses as much as under-service. If I need assistance I'll make eye contact, trust me. Thais don't seem to like the hard sell either.

Equally annoying in places like Robinson or Central (home of the permanent 30-70% off sale) is that the sales assistant working in the shoes Brand 'X' area can't or won't take you over to see something more suitable in the shoes brand 'Y' area. I assume they only get commission on sales in their area.

It's not just clothes shops of course. The guys in the big screen TV/whitegoods departments are like corgies on yabaa. I guess shop assistants are like dogs and cats - if they know you're scared or allergic they sense it When you need one they scatter like rats, or pretend to be deaf and dumb.

You make very good observations that reflect exactly how I feel. I hate shop assistants who just can't take a subtle hint. I smile and try to politely ignore the attempt to "present" the shirt to me but she starts "presenting" other shirts. I feeling like shouting "YES I CAN SEE THERE ARE 50 SHIRTS ON THIS RACK AND I WANT TO LOOK AT THEM ALL BEFORE CHOOSING WHICH (IF ANY) I WANT TO BUY BUT IT WOULD BE A LOT QUICKER IF YOU JUST LET ME GET ON WITH IT". Instead I just walk to another part of the shop but the shop assistant follows me like an obsessed stalker looking at my every move. You say it might be poor staff training but I've seen it so many times (in Korea also but strangely not in any other country) that I think they are told to do that to try to "make the sale". It never works with me. I usually move to another section of the department store or the next shop until I find a shop with polite assistants.

Another pet hate is in Carrefour and similar places if you ask where something is the assistant will thrust her hand out in a sort of sideways fascist salute as if to say "this direction!" Of course that doesn't help in a large supermarket and you have to be very assertive to get the assistant to take you to what you're looking for.

[sbk]

And to be quite honest I think a fair observation.

I know a lot of Thai girls that are under the impression that western women look down on them, perhaps it is a source of resentment?

funny, I don't know any Thai girls that think that way. Not saying you don't but that I know many many Thai women quite well, including ones in service jobs and they don't have that attitude.

However, I do know many Thai women in service jobs who feel that other Thai people look down on them and treat them poorly for being in a service job. In fact, the women who work for my husband and myself in a small bungalow resort ask us specifically to not let Thai people stay there as they tend to expect far more service than the position or the place implies. And, often, those with the worst attitude towards our staff are other Thai women.

So, in my experience, I do not know Thai women who have told me or behaved towards me in a manner that implies they think I think I am superior. But then, I don't think I am superior, just luckier, so perhaps that belief comes out in my behavior and that is why I rarely encounter a snotty attitude

As for the following you around the shop issue, well I was told by a shop owner that he orders his staff to follow customers around to cut down on the shoplifting as it is a serious problem.

[burman]

funny, I don't know any Thai girls that think that way. Not saying you don't but that I know many many Thai women quite well, including ones in service jobs and they don't have that attitude.

I don't think it's 'funny' in any way. You know mainly Thai women that live on an island, I know mainly Thai women in Bangkok. I imagine they do think differently about many things. I know many many Thai women very well as well. Not all think that way of course, but I have heard it and thought it might be a factor.

You must also appreciate a Thai woman may not want to criticise western women as much to you, as you are a western woman yourself?

the women who work for my husband and myself in a small bungalow resort ask us specifically to not let Thai people stay there as they tend to expect far more service than the position or the place implies. And, often, those with the worst attitude towards our staff are other Thai women.

And this in fact backs up a point I wanted to make earlier but was far too scared to in this forum.

Now I appreciate I may well be wrongly shot down in flames for sexism here, but its my observation that women are far more hostile to other women than men are to other men in the service industry.

So, in my experience, I do not know Thai women who have told me or behaved towards me in a manner that implies they think I think I am superior. But then, I don't think I am superior, just luckier, so perhaps that belief comes out in my behavior and that is why I rarely encounter a snotty attitude

Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself is a rule of thumb I live by as well. I never seem to encounter the problems other people have with Thai's or westerners because of this attitude.

Edited June 2, 2008 by burman

[sbk]

I like your selective reading of my post burman. Nicely done how you ignore my final point regarding my experiences in this matter.

[burman]

Apologies for missing part of your post SBK, it was late last night, I was near to bed and I didn't realise there was anything to comment on and missed it.

Rather than throwing more accusatory comments at me regarding my selective reading perhaps you could let me know which point I missed out and I will happily comment on it here.

There is a level of decorum needed in any debate SBK.

[burman]

Was this the point?

As for the following you around the shop issue, well I was told by a shop owner that he orders his staff to follow customers around to cut down on the shoplifting as it is a serious problem.

Yes, agreed, and such an obvious truth (around the whole world in fact) I didn't think it worth a comment on.

[jfchandler]

WOW.... I never knew that shopping could be such a b---tch.....

I always think, occasionally spending money and taking something home for yourself or others is supposed to be fun... notwithstanding the type of service you encounter at the shop or store...

Ultimately, everyone should vote with their feet... If you really want the item or the price is really good, then, you might put up with less than sterling service... But if the price is too high or the service is too bad, then it's time for walking away... Pretty simple, I think. Ultimately, that keeps the good shops in business and weeds out the bad...

PS... Notwithstanding the comment above about bad directions in Carrefour, I've had just the opposite experience multiple times in Tesco-Lotuses in BKK... Everytime I can't find something or I'm in a branch that I'm not familiar with, the assistant I collar usually ends up escorting me right to the place I need.

[hanibal7]

i have found that most thai girls have been very polite to me.many times i have been ina 7-11 and an older thai lady has come in and with a voice like a bucket of nails demands to be served when other people are waiting.the young girl always feels threatened by the hi-so nasty fat lady but i tell them to go to the back of the queue and the young girls are always very relieved because the pressure that is put on them makes them feel that they have to serve the bk type of horrible woman.

maybe the first poster intimidated thegirl without knowing or the girl felt that she was going to get a verbal bashing as the lady farang was up the pecking order and also its possible that a white farang against a dark skinned girl tells a whole new story about thailand.

[kat]

There's an indisputable aspect of bitchiness that seems to spark the way young Thai women interact with non-Thai women.

Many of the reasons have been cited above, but one that might not have is the way that Thai ladies do somewhat view farang ladies as enemy. I think most of us expect some sense of solidarity amongst our gender, and feel startled when this expectation is not met. It's a jungle ! and yes, the younger the girl, the more they have been exposed to other ways of life, and the less likely they may feel allegiance to the cultural norms of existing to serve those who created her. However, she has almost always been taught that her ability to "catch" a high-earning man is her greatest strength. Thus, a conflicting mix of feelings.

I think these girls envy our "freedom" and perceived power, the latter being no more than any individual should have, anyway.

Girls are used terribly here, there's no way around that. Boys, also. And pride is at such high stakes ...

However, she has almost always been taught that her ability to "catch" a high-earning man is her greatest strength. Thus, a conflicting mix of feelings.

When western women say things like "Most Thai women have been taught that gold digging is their greatest strength" I think you can understand the problem comes from both sides.

First of all, that's not what she said, and you quoted her out of context. I think when Western men put Thai women or anyone else on a pedestal and need to demonize others to maintain their fantasy, it's really about their resentment and so much more.

[burman]

However, she has almost always been taught that her ability to "catch" a high-earning man is her greatest strength. Thus, a conflicting mix of feelings.

When western women say things like "Most Thai women have been taught that gold digging is their greatest strength" I think you can understand the problem comes from both sides.

First of all, that's not what she said, and you quoted her out of context.

Yes I quoted her and changed a word. It's quite obvious to everyone here that it is not what she said because I quoted her also.

But it is very similar don't you think? Catching a high earning man could very easily be confused with the accusation of gold digging. Do you not think young Thai girls might misinterpret this attitude also?

I think when Western men put Thai women or anyone else on a pedestal and need to demonize others to maintain their fantasy, it's really about their resentment and so much more.

I think you need to address what I have said without trying to counter attack what you mistakenly think is a derogatory statement towards all western women. It once again demonstrates you'd obvious dislike for many men in Thailand and your need to ironically play the 'discrimination card' at every turn.

I never put my Thai women on a pedestal, the only woman in fact I do keep on a pedestal is my Mother, a fine western woman.

as an aside...

Can I ask a question of the some of the ladies here?

As a man, do I need to make a statement of non sexism before I post here?

There is obviously going to be some generalisation about western women and Thai women in this thread, it is named 'young Thai girls' after all and has become a discussion between the problems Thai women and western women have.

It can be difficult to get my point across without overly sensitive posters accusing others of sexism, or favouritism towards the Thai women. Why must we be demonized when we try to make a point?

it's really about their resentment and so much more.

Now I am being called a 'hater' for making a comment on a western woman's post.

Please make relevant comments to the discussion Kat, rather than making yet more assumptions about western men and our thinking just because you disagree with what one of them has said. We are no all western women haters, duped by Thai women, and mentally scarred by the sex industry of Thailand.

Some of us are still quite normal.

Edited June 3, 2008 by burman

[kat]

Yes, you did change a word and removed it from the context of what she was saying. Your word change reflects a derogatory view and label that is spouted more by Western men in Thailand. Sylvia's comments reflect more of what hundreds of journals, research reports, and objective discussions of SEA culture and gender politics say and know about themselves. The information is out there, as well as empirical evidence. I have substantiated things on this forum until the hens or mods come home to roost.

I don't need to waste my time with someone who is just out to pick an argument over self-evident truths. If you are not completely clueless - which I doubt - then you are either deluded or just out to pick another fight in the ladies forum, and all are a waste of time.

Knock yourself out.

[burman]

Touched a nerve did I Kat.

Sylvia's comments reflect more of what hundreds of journals, research reports, and objective discussions of SEA culture and gender politics say and know about themselves.

Yes I quite agree! I agree with Sylvia's comments also! Most Thai women are taught to catch a high earning man.

I don't need to read papers and get second hand information to know this, I talk and discuss these things with Bangkok girls all the time. I never in fact said I disagreed with it, thought you seem to have read otherwise.

But.....

If a western woman approaches a Thai woman and says what Sylvia said.

What do you think the Thai woman will think?

Will she agree that this is an indisputably researched truth?

or..

Will she think 'bloody western women looking down on us Thai women' and start giving some bad attitude back?

Honestly Kat, what do you think a Thai woman's response to Sylvia's comment would be?

Edited June 3, 2008 by burman

[Boo]

I don't recall her saying that this was said to any thai women just that she observed that they had less sisterly attitude towards other women (and didn't specify which women, just generally) as a result of this expectation & may be partly what this attiitude the op was talking about, resulted from. An expectation, both you & kat agree is there.

But misquoting her in that way was wrong imo as she never said the girls were gold digging just that they were taught to look for a good provider. So yes, doing that was offensive as you implied that a western women, made a comment about thai women being gold diggers, when that clearly wasn't the case.

[hanibal7]

burman,

totaly agree with your comments.it seems you cannot say anything on here without being accused of sexist.yet when a woman makes a bad comment about thai ladies the moderators mostly stick up for them and warn us.

many women all over the world pick a guy because he has money.the same as indian hi-so and tyhe same as thai hi-so and yet when an issan girl is accused its supposed to be bad.

i think a few people should think more before posting.

[Boo]

No one has mentioned issan women & no one has made bad comments about thai women, this op was about shop girls bad attitiudes to customers & posters have thrown out various suggestions as to why, so I suggest hanibel7 that you listen to your own words;

i think a few people should think more before posting.

[burman]

hannibal7, you completely missed my point.

[edwardandtubs]

i have found that most thai girls have been very polite to me.many times i have been ina 7-11 and an older thai lady has come in and with a voice like a bucket of nails demands to be served when other people are waiting.the young girl always feels threatened by the hi-so nasty fat lady but i tell them to go to the back of the queue and the young girls are always very relieved because the pressure that is put on them makes them feel that they have to serve the bk type of horrible woman.

maybe the first poster intimidated thegirl without knowing or the girl felt that she was going to get a verbal bashing as the lady farang was up the pecking order and also its possible that a white farang against a dark skinned girl tells a whole new story about thailand.

7-11 girls (and boys) are definitely very polite and less stuck up. I think they're from more modest backgrounds than the wannabe hi-so girls who work in clothes shops and the like so don't feel that customer service is beneath them. Also there is usually someone more senior in the shop to supervise them. I think the OP was talking about clothes shops and similar rather than 7-11s/

Edited June 3, 2008 by edwardandtubs

[burman]

But misquoting her in that way was wrong imo as she never said the girls were gold digging

Fully aware she never said the word gold digging Boo. If you go back to the post you will actually noticed I quoted her perfectly.

I also misquoted her in a very obvious fashion, and that was to make a point. I did mention this earlier, a couple of pages back.

just that they were taught to look for a good provider. So yes, doing that was offensive as you implied that a western women, made a comment about thai women being gold diggers, when that clearly wasn't the case.

I assume Sylvia understood it, as I noticed she isn't as bothered to comment it on as the other seem to. As I say, I fully agree with comment she made.

I will also say, from previous experience of posting in the ladies forum that Kat and SBK would be the first ones to jump on me and cast aspersions that I was sexist. SBK never says too much, because I think she just flares up quickly and understands I'm not. Kat jumps right in and attacks with her sexist rants.

And no matter what you may say next, the wise and diplomatic Boo I know as you are reading this you are nodding your head, and I know that SBK is half agreeing too, but Kat is in a rage of red mist thinking of new insults to demonize me, her face never to be lost to one of these Thailand expat men.

Kat is a complete fruitcake and we all know it (and I say this is the nicest possible way). As soon as a man makes a comment about western women behavior he might have noticed she is in his face talking about his hate for western women. It's completely mad.

I must say though, I find Kat and SBK to be two of the nicest women on this forum, good hearted people. but for gods sake give it a break with all the 'western men hate all western women' and the 'western men put Thai women on a pedestal' style talk (and all the rest of it Kat).

You make us sound like a naive bunch of fools who have been twisted into psychopathic western women haters. when we are just trying to express an opinion on a sub forum of this site that we might actually take an interest in because we like to chat to other western women with Thailand experience.

Ok, I am off to buy milk and biscuits so my rant is over.

None of the above is meant with any hate, it just tires me to get this from Kat again.

Enjoy your night ladies, and you too Kat!

Edited June 3, 2008 by burman

[kat]

Touched a nerve did I Kat.

Wishful thinking. And by the way, you are not the only person who ever talks to Thai women. Nice job that you have to resort to personally insulting me. You are the one who obviously has a fondness for playing a card.

[kat]

But misquoting her in that way was wrong imo as she never said the girls were gold digging

Fully aware she never said the word gold digging Boo. If you go back to the post you will actually noticed I quoted her perfectly.

I also misquoted her in a very obvious fashion, and that was to make a point. I did mention this earlier, a couple of pages back.

just that they were taught to look for a good provider. So yes, doing that was offensive as you implied that a western women, made a comment about thai women being gold diggers, when that clearly wasn't the case.

I assume Sylvia understood it, as I noticed she isn't as bothered to comment it on as the other seem to. As I say, I fully agree with comment she made.

I will also say, from previous experience of posting in the ladies forum that Kat and SBK would be the first ones to jump on me and cast aspersions that I was sexist. SBK never says too much, because I think she just flares up quickly and understands I'm not. Kat jumps right in and attacks with her sexist rants.

And no matter what you may say next, the wise and diplomatic Boo I know as you are reading this you are nodding your head, and I know that SBK is half agreeing too, but Kat is in a rage of red mist thinking of new insults to demonize me, her face never to be lost to one of these Thailand expat men.

Kat is a complete fruitcake and we all know it (and I say this is the nicest possible way). As soon as a man makes a comment about western women behavior he might have noticed she is in his face talking about his hate for western women. It's completely mad.

I must say though, I find Kat and SBK to be two of the nicest women on this forum, good hearted people. but for gods sake give it a break with all the 'western men hate all western women' and the 'western men put Thai women on a pedestal' style talk (and all the rest of it Kat).

You make us sound like a naive bunch of fools who have been twisted into psychopathic western women haters. when we are just trying to express an opinion on a sub forum of this site that we might actually take an interest in because we like to chat to other western women with Thailand experience.

Ok, I am off to buy milk and biscuits so my rant is over.

None of the above is meant with any hate, it just tires me to get this from Kat again.

Enjoy your night ladies, and you too Kat!

If you can't argue rationally, then don't post. And if you can't take responsibility for you comments that you contradict in the next breath, then don't resort to bullying behavior and personal insults to save yourself, because you've already lost.

Ta ta.

[sbk]

Touched a nerve did I Kat.

Nice job that you have to resort to personally insulting me.

Indeed, kat is correct here burman, and personal insults will get you in trouble in any location on this forum, not just the ladies forum. So, may I suggest that next time you feel the need to insult, bite your tongue. Or better yet, walk away from the forum because further such personal attacks will result in direct moderator action.

As for missing my point, re-read my original reply to girlx and then re read my entire last post. Not just the bits that fit your preconceived notions.

So, we have had several theories as to why there is poor service. Shall we get back to the subject at hand instead?

[edwardandtubs]

So, we have had several theories as to why there is poor service. Shall we get back to the subject at hand instead?

Yes.

7-11 girls (and boys) are definitely very polite and less stuck up. I think they're from more modest backgrounds than the wannabe hi-so girls who work in clothes shops and the like so don't feel that customer service is beneath them. Also there is usually someone more senior in the shop to supervise them. I think the OP was talking about clothes shops and similar rather than 7-11s.

[kat]

Thanks SBK. Getting back to the topic, I think the concept of service is also part of the cultural domain. In Thailand and most of Asia, there is no real concept of "just looking" or the customer "is always right". It is more like you are in their shop looking and touching their property, and if you enter you are there to do business. That is one of the major culture clashes overall, and I think in Thailand their are other factors which we touched upon here.

[Ananke]

7-11 girls (and boys) are definitely very polite and less stuck up. I think they're from more modest backgrounds than the wannabe hi-so girls who work in clothes shops ...

What a fascinating thread.

Could someone please explain this term "hi-so" ? I've seen it quite a bit recently in different places? I've been away from the Kingdom a long time.

[sbk]

high society. Covered here Hi-So