Culinary Racism (by Thais Against Farangs)

[beammeup]

I know what you mean I live away from the tourist centres and my wife usually orders, sometimes she throws in a tamada. On a trip to Pattaya we couldnt find a decent thai restaurant all the placed we tried served watered down rubbish. I'm sure there a re good places to eat there but we couldn't find any.

[tuky]

I haven't noticed this phenomenon, but to be honest the only place we eat out at is Mum Aroi otherwise we eat at home.

How many of you would be happy eating kii plea?

[steveromagnino]

It is a function of market preference; the vast majority of white skinned people do struggle a bit to eat spicy food, and that's why resort towns like Phuket serve very very bland food.

And yes, I've eaten there and they serve the same bland food to me; the chefs there in places like Kata for the most part seem unable to cook non greasy, spicy tasty food for the most part.

On the other hand, in Phuket town you will get genuine southern THai food, and I'd bet perhaps 50%+ of Thai people struggle to eat it, and something like 95%+ of foreigners who don't normally eat spicy food will really struggle at all.

It isn't exactly complex. You are wanting to eat food with a taste that the majority of foreigners do not like. So just make sure that the waiting staff understand that you want it Thai flavour 'roht chaht bpairp Thai tae tae na nong' or something to that effect, and you'll be just fine.

A genuine southern curry or genuine Isaan gaeng bpah there are plenty of Thai people who cannot handle those.

If it makes you feel better, let me bring up insurance companies. Insurance premiums are higher for people who are leading a more risky lifestyle. In NZ for instance, the premiums for a man aged under 25 driving a turboed sportcar are prohibitive due to the risks involved. I would hardly call the insurance company not being willing to list a policy for such a person wanting to register their drift car Nissan Sylvia turbo as being ageist or sexist. It is being customer focused and bottom line focused.

Same for a restuarant; firstly there is a the issue of having to hire staff to translate all the food for that day only into english from Thai; then the issue of having staff who can understand every dish in the menu that like 1 person a year orders; then the issue that 99% of them can't eat it anyhow; then the issue of complaints....easier just to make it bland, knowing that any reasonable person can ask for chillis, sugar, vinegar and fish sauce on the side to spice it up....or presumably knows enough to ask for it.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[Lost in LOS]

I agree with Jingthing

i wouldn't call it racist but thai's just think we wont like it the authentic way, maybe in many cases that is true. I do wish they would ask first though. I know enough Thai to ask for it the same as a Thai would eat it but it doesn't always work. if I am with my girlfriend I let her order the food not telling the waiter who eats what and then i have no problem. i do dislike the "watered down version though"

jingthing where is this Chinese Thai restaurant. i like Chinese food and will give it a try

[t.s]

One reason that I gave up ordering any Thai food besides fruit and khaow paht gai is that no Thai words that really tell them to leave out all the stuff I hate.

seeing as my girlfriend can spend 20 minutes telling a waitress exactly what to put in and what to leave out of a dish, i suspect my edit above is more accurate

[t.s]

I have always belived is was my fault for not specifying that i want the real article.

It also depends on where you are eating. people who cook for tourist all the time will cook differently from people who predominantly serve Thais.

as for racism, i think caution is best exercised when making accusations.

The onus is on you to be clear, not them to understand.

[jeffer]

I've been in Chinese restaurants outside of Thailand with Chinese friends and there has been the menu and there has also been the menu that isn't written anywhere but is read out to them in Chinese. Having tried a few of the things my friends ordered I can understand why the items didn't make it on to the written menu. Very limited appeal for most non Chinese I would have thought. People tell me I try a lot of things that only Chinese would eat and while it can be interesting to try new things I tend to stick to the regular menu. Sometimes you're not really missing out on much by not knowing about all the other stuff.

[Marvo]

I love a good Thai curry but my slightly sensitive stomach lining complains sometimes. The GF always asks for mai peht mai peht when gving my order but it nearly always still blows my head off. I try a bit of hers and tastes exactly the same! Looks like I need to sniff out these places that "dumb" everything down for farangs 'cause the places I go to won't even do it on request

[Crushdepth]

Just tell them you like it hot.

[GuestHouse]

Back in 1991 my then girlfriend and I went back packing around China (an experience I can tell you).

While in Beijing we called for dinner in a local Chinese restaurant, sat down and waited for the waiter and the menu.

Over to our table comes the head waiter ... and then handed us two menus from the Hyatt Hotel - complete with Hyatt Hotel Prices.

[Prakanong]

"I've been in Chinese restaurants outside of Thailand with Chinese friends and there has been the menu and there has also been the menu that isn't written anywhere but is read out to them in Chinese."

You mean like the daily specials you get at western places too that are not on the main menu

Sorry could not resist

I east daily as I said with Asians - Chinese (mainland and oversea's), Burmese, Indian, Filipina's etc - it can take a long time to order let me tell you as someone is translating the preferences but I usually take what is given

[PeaceBlondie]

I love a good Thai curry but my slightly sensitive stomach lining complains sometimes. The GF always asks for mai peht mai peht when gving my order but it nearly always still blows my head off. I try a bit of hers and tastes exactly the same! Looks like I need to sniff out these places that "dumb" everything down for farangs 'cause the places I go to won't even do it on request

Thank you. Even when Thais tell Thais to leave out the chilies, even if they spend 20 minutes in the local dialect, sometimes it comes back hotter than hottest. So even when they have the words in Thai language and tell a Thai, many cooks seem unable to leave out the hot stuff. The solution is to not eat Thai cooked food. Most Thais do not know what bland food is. And if that makes me a culinary racist, pass me the hamburgers and chocolate sauce.

[toybits]

Damned if you do! Damned if you don't.

Most foreigners would probably need a fire extinguisher if they ate authentic Thai Food and where not used to eating spicy dishes.

So what do you expect them to do? Read your mind?

I love good food of many cultures.

When I go to a Mexican restaurant, I want Mexican food. I want the same thing the Mexicans get.

Fill in the blank for Mexican, for any other country, and most reasonable people when they go to a restaurant featuring the food of a specific country, they are there for that kind of food, or they wouldn't be there.

What is up with Thai restaurants giving farangs DIFFERENT food than they serve Thais, even when the farang did not ask for anything special or different?

Some might say they are being polite and trying to protect us from spices.

I say they are practicing culinary racism. They clearly believe there is something about white skin that makes it impossible for us to enjoy their food. I am insulted by this and feel cheated.

A few examples:

Went into a Thai Chinese restaurant a few weeks ago and ordered up a few dishes. It was busy and filled with Thais and Chinese tourists. I got fantastic, authentic food! Clearly the staff was too busy to "help" the farang order by ruining the food, and just cooked it as they would normally cook it for their usual crowd.

Went back when they were empty. Ordered the exact same dishes. They were disgusting. No flavor. No spice. Cooked entirely differently. I felt seriously cheated. (Yes, I did complain.)

Just visited Iberry ice cream store in Pattaya. I know that sometimes they have durian ice cream. In my view, it is their best ice cream. The durian ice cream is the only flavor there labeled in THAI only! As if there are no farangs who love durian. Insulting. Culinary racism again.

I calls em like i sees em.

BTW, I know it is not only the Thais that do this. Living in the US, there is the same problem with all kinds of Asian restaurants. The only way to solve is to become a regular at a place, be obnoxious and insistent in asserting your rights as a customer, and TRAIN them that you want the same food they serve Asians. Again, sorry, this is not polite. It is racist and unfair to customers as well, charging the same money for inferior food. It really, really, should not be that hard to get the same food Asian people get automatically by virtue of their racial characteristics.

Do you see my point?

[geriatrickid]

It is a function of market preference; the vast majority of white skinned people do struggle a bit to eat spicy food, and that's why resort towns like Phuket serve very very bland food.

So very true. it took me awhile to understand why my friends always refused to dine with me at Thai places that catered to westerners. Even I find it bland.

On the other hand, if you eat with a Thai, you usually can get the hot stuff. So simple solution is to bring along a friend. The 200bht to feed him/her is a small price to pay for a good meal.

[steveromagnino]

It is a function of market preference; the vast majority of white skinned people do struggle a bit to eat spicy food, and that's why resort towns like Phuket serve very very bland food.

So very true. it took me awhile to understand why my friends always refused to dine with me at Thai places that catered to westerners. Even I find it bland.

On the other hand, if you eat with a Thai, you usually can get the hot stuff. So simple solution is to bring along a friend. The 200bht to feed him/her is a small price to pay for a good meal.

street food is fairly authentic ;-) I remember joking to one of the owners of a major hotel here (Thai owner) that street food could be more tasty than their 6 star hotel cuisine, and she said with a dead straight face, 'well of course, street food is way better than anything we can prepare here!'

Bahn Khun Kanittha is a lovely place to take visitors, and nice ambiance, but it is no surprise to me at all that the only Thais that eat there are pretty much with foreign guests. And it isn't even that bad! SOme of the other hotels should have 'artifical flavour and natural flavour removed' from their disclaimers.

Next time, line me up Geriatric kid; all I require is a bottle of Singha and I'll order you the most gut wrenching heat your overworked bowels can handle ;-)

p.s. I mean food eaten, rather than approaching your bowels from the opposite direction.

p.p.s. Not that there is anything wrong with that

[JetsetBkk]

...What is up with Thai restaurants giving farangs DIFFERENT food than they serve Thais, even when the farang did not ask for anything special or different?...

I'm sure they're just trying to please the majority of their customers. You're clearly in a minority.

(But we knew that already )

[Jingthing]

It was only a type of rad na

That's funny.

Just the other day I ordered rad na talay in clear Thai and was given a completely different dish (not gravy) in a place where most of the Thai people were indeed eating proper rad na.

To the person who tells me it is my fault and not the restaurants fault when they bugger up my food when I did NOT ask them to, you live on a different planet than me, sorry. If I return to the Thai Chinese place in question, I think they will remember me already because I made them admit they would have brought entirely different food if I had not been a farang. The waitress looked very embarrassed when she admitted this, the kind of embarrassment a BUSTED racist would feel when confronted. People are trying to simplify this as spicy/not spicy. Nope, there is more to it than that.

This is not a Weho thread. This a real issue. If it isn't to you, trust me, it is to people who care about food. Not everyone does.

Trying to please the majority? Maybe sometimes. And maybe sometimes they give us crap because they don't see us as real human beings and it is OK to sell us crap food because we will pay anyway the same price with a smile and a big tip. Which is it? I guess it depends.

I realize that many love threads like this to bash the OP. Become fluent in Thai! Go home! Always be an a-hole at the restaurant even BEFORE you know they are going to botch it up (now that is rude and arrogant, don't you think?)! You are paranoid! Whatever. I think most foodies would understand ...

Edited May 27, 2008 by Jingthing

[Samuian]

Careful, a lot of generalizations have surfaced here!

Sure there are Thais who do not eat spicy food, some love it mega hot, some know it isn't good for your health, local kitchens vary, food quality varies with the chef.

If ANYBODY could explain what "authentic" Thai Food means, I would be a happy man!

next I remember the "Chinese Restaurants" back in Germany or in Holland... the names of the dishes were all different but what ended up on the table was always this slimy, noodle, vegetable, Rice serves...in the City of Berlin, I knew only one out of many which was reasonable good, so with the "Indian", the "Italian", name it and be fair!

Check 'em out, if they are good, o.k. if not... forget - racism? very funny idea!

Concerning "living & eating in Thailand" one has to able to communicate and UNDERSTAND the people, the local customs and "cuisine", knowing the dishes helps a lot too!

With very few exceptions, I would have had in my home country as well, I usually enjoyed local cuisine, whatever - Thai food is generally hot and spice, very flavorsome and some tastes are definitely NOT common to the European Palate!

I always will remember one funny incident in the restaurant I was managing, some customers ordered Thai... Tom Yum, fried Fish "Sahm rod", fried vegetables etc.. at one point one of the customers from this table asked me: "what is the stuff that tastes like "rat pee"?

My reply was: "Sorry, haven't tasted it yet, did you Sir?"

At first he was speechless, but then smiled about is blunder and then we could figure out that he didn't know the flavor of Coriander leaves and root... I offered to leave it next time out of the concoction... my wife wrote it down in Thai for him.. and we had another happy customer....

So is the taste of Kaffir Lime Leaves, Lemon Grass, Tamarind, Turian, Fish Sauce, fermented Pork, Kapi (dried shrimp paste)

to just name a few...

And then, never forget: "whilst in Rome, do as the Romans do!"

Edited May 27, 2008 by Samuian

[Jingthing]

When a Thai person goes into any European food restaurant in the West, and somehow communicates to the waiter what he wants (pointing, talking, etc.) there will be no racism in the kitchen. The Thai will get the food he ordered! It will be exactly the same as if a local ordered it. But this does happen in Asian restaurants all over the world, not only Thai. Maybe this makes some people uncomfortable, but I think this is a rock worth turning over and having a look at.

Many Asians don't like blue cheese. But if a Thai ordered a blue cheese dressing for his salad, do you think the kitchen would serve him Italian or Russian dressing? Would you suggest he always say, I want the salad with blue cheese dressing but make it white boy style because I know you are racist and might not give me the same food as the whiteys? That is the kind of thing some people are suggesting we do.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Jingthing

[Samuian]

When a Thai person goes into any European food restaurant in the West, and somehow communicates to the waiter what he wants (pointing, talking, etc.) there will be no racism in the kitchen. The Thai will get the food he ordered! It will be exactly the same as if a local ordered it. But this does happen in Asian restaurants all over the world, not only Thai. Maybe this makes some people uncomfortable, but I think this is a rock worth turning over and having a look at.

Many Asians don't like blue cheese. But if a Thai ordered a blue cheese dressing for his salad, do you think the kitchen would serve him Italian or Russian dressing? Would you suggest he always say, I want the salad with blue cheese dressing but make it white boy style because I know you are racist and might not give me the same food as the whiteys? That is the kind of thing some people are suggesting we do.

i must say this NEVER happened to me, if so, I would 1.) ask why, it is served NOT as ordered, it could be a mistake, it even could be wrong concerns and some (wrong) means of hospitality... if the answer would be: "Farang, something" I would simply NOT return to this particular Restaurant!

But to blow the racism whistle here is a bit out of tune don't you receive it like this, up to you!

I live here for almost 20 years and still enjoy it, Thais can be fun, depends, if you wish, heaven can be hel_l!

We all got a choice...

[toptuan]

Living here 20 years, a person can easily BECOME Asian.

Never in a MILLION years. You will always be a farang in Thai society.

Life is tough. Get used to it.

[steveromagnino]

[To the person who tells me it is my fault and not the restaurants fault when they bugger up my food when I did NOT ask them to, you live on a different planet than me, sorry. If I return to the Thai Chinese place in question, I think they will remember me already because I made them admit they would have brought entirely different food if I had not been a farang. The waitress looked very embarrassed when she admitted this, the kind of embarrassment a BUSTED racist would feel when confronted. People are trying to simplify this as spicy/not spicy. Nope, there is more to it than that.

Trying to please the majority? Maybe sometimes. And maybe sometimes they give us crap because they don't see us as real human beings and it is OK to sell us crap food because we will pay anyway the same price with a smile and a big tip. Which is it? I guess it depends.

I don't know any Thai people that behave the way you have described, but no doubt there are some.

There were kids when I went to school that took great delight in bashing the C&*p out of me every day for being a chink and a gook (apparently).

However, I don't therefore conclude every single white person is a racist unable to think of me as less than a human being.

I do, however, have numerous experiences in being unable to get service around the world and in the states (NZ accent, therefore assumed that i won't tip), lousy food, food poisoning and being overcharged.

My solution? I just don't eat at those c&*p places; there are a ton of great places to eat.

Main difference with western food is that most western chefs are sufficiently up themselves to not care about altering much for the customer unless asked; people can generally eat it if they order it. Asian food + westerners is often a disaster; I stand by my point; the majority of white westerners; ok alter that, the overwhelming majority of westerners cannot handle spicy Asian food.

Though the Rard Na thing, has me baffled; and bailing them up and getting an admission out of them sounds a little Guantanamo Bay; fair enough but I honestly have never seen or heard of anything like this, so cannot help but feel it is an isolated incident.

If you are going to try to convince me what you just experienced is the norm for you, I'll pay for your lunch a couple of times just to see this; I am not calling you a liar here, I just want to know why it is you that is getting this treatment; call it a bit of jing thing + Romag bonding 101 :-)

I'll even pay

[Jingthing]

No, it doesn't happen to me in places I go REGULARLY because they know me and I have TRAINED them. If they cannot be trained, time to move to another place. It does happen sometimes, not always, in places that don't know me.

Never in a MILLION years. You will always be a farang in Thai society.

Yes, I know. But if you live in Asia, in some sense over time you are an Asian. Not racially, but geographically. Certainly not usually recognized as such by the locals and thus the issues in this thread.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Jingthing

[steveromagnino]

No, it doesn't happen to me in places I go REGULARLY because they know me and I have TRAINED them. If they cannot be trained, time to move to another place. It does happen sometimes, not always, in places that don't know me.

Never in a MILLION years. You will always be a farang in Thai society.

Yes, I know. But if you live in Asia, in some sense over time you are an Asian. Not racially, but geographically.

My mum grew up her whole life in New Zealand except the first 4 years of it.

She will never really be regarded by many as a New Zealander despite holding the passport, paying millions of dollars in tax, raising two legendary children and subjecting an entire neighbourhood to the pungent aromas of Thai and chinese cuisine.

Asian geographically sure. But most people don't use it in that sense.

They tend to more use it like this:

' dem Asians sure is good at math'

' dem Asians sure cannot drive'

' Dem Asians sure do like playing computer games and reading comics'

If you have these 3 points mastered, then you may be well on the way to becoming an Asian.

Mind you, pretty much no Asian person calls themselves Asian. Just a BTW. I'm Thai Chinese mixed, I would never consider that a Japanese person has any more in common with me than say, a fake breasted Miami cheerleader.

Although I ถึง Japan, I never ถึง Miami

[Ijustwannateach]

^I agree that it's extremely unfair (and sometimes blatantly offensive) to ignore the differences between Japanese, Thais, Chinese, and other actual nationalities.

Btw, Steve, your posts above remind me of a funny afternoon about 4 years ago- a teacher from the South decided to cook us up a genuine Southern curry in a hotpot in the teacher's room. The fumes alone were strong enough to drive everyone (including all the non-Southern Thais!) from the room!

"S"

P.S. I've heard dem Asians don't want to hurt us, dey only want our computers!

[t.s]

To the person who tells me it is my fault and not the restaurants fault when they bugger up my food when I did NOT ask them to, you live on a different planet than me, sorry. If I return to the Thai Chinese place in question, I think they will remember me already because I made them admit they would have brought entirely different food if I had not been a farang. The waitress looked very embarrassed when she admitted this, the kind of embarrassment a BUSTED racist would feel when confronted. People are trying to simplify this as spicy/not spicy. Nope, there is more to it than that.

uh yes, only the racist thais look embarrassed when confronted. do you consider it racist as well when you are served khao man gai without all the fat skin and gristle?

[LooseCannon]

It was only a type of rad na

That's funny.

Just the other day I ordered rad na talay in clear Thai and was given a completely different dish (not gravy) in a place where most of the Thai people were indeed eating proper rad na.

To the person who tells me it is my fault and not the restaurants fault when they bugger up my food when I did NOT ask them to, you live on a different planet than me, sorry. If I return to the Thai Chinese place in question, I think they will remember me already because I made them admit they would have brought entirely different food if I had not been a farang. The waitress looked very embarrassed when she admitted this, the kind of embarrassment a BUSTED racist would feel when confronted. People are trying to simplify this as spicy/not spicy. Nope, there is more to it than that.

This is not a Weho thread. This a real issue. If it isn't to you, trust me, it is to people who care about food. Not everyone does.

Trying to please the majority? Maybe sometimes. And maybe sometimes they give us crap because they don't see us as real human beings and it is OK to sell us crap food because we will pay anyway the same price with a smile and a big tip. Which is it? I guess it depends.

I realize that many love threads like this to bash the OP. Become fluent in Thai! Go home! Always be an a-hole at the restaurant even BEFORE you know they are going to botch it up (now that is rude and arrogant, don't you think?)! You are paranoid! Whatever. I think most foodies would understand ...

I can't say that I have ever had any real problems when eating out at literally thousands of different eating places, from street stalls to the more higher-end restaurants.

Mistakes have been made & on a few occasions I have got a meal that I wasn't expecting, most of the time it has been my fault, sometimes their's, but I have never felt the need to complain, & they were certainly not trying to <deleted> me over because I am a farang.

By far the majority of the meals have been from restaurants at the lower end of the scale where I find the quality to be much better than the air-conditioned, up-market places.

All the incredients are on display & it is more or less cooked in front of you & I have got exactly the same meal as every other person in the place.

I have consistently found that poorer quality food is served from the Thai restaurants found in shopping centres & tourist locales, & as such I try to avoid at all costs.

For us to gain a better understanding of your problem, here are a couple of questions.

What type of restaurants are you talking about? - street stall, air-con, 3 star hotel etc

What style of food do they server? - Thai, Chinese, a little bit of farang thrown in etc

Where are they located? - Thai tourist, farang tourist, provinces, night market, shopping centre etc

What is the price range for the meals?

Who are they catering for?

If you give us a bit more information we might be able to point you in the right direction.

[steveromagnino]

Btw, Steve, your posts above remind me of a funny afternoon about 4 years ago- a teacher from the South decided to cook us up a genuine Southern curry in a hotpot in the teacher's room. The fumes alone were strong enough to drive everyone (including all the non-Southern Thais!) from the room!

P.S. I've heard dem Asians don't want to hurt us, dey only want our computers!

Hey, we just wanna play counterstrike and Ragnarok ok???!

So...did you try the southern Curry? Man, I love Southern food, definitely my favourite of Thai regional cuisine; northern too bland, Northeastern good, but southern....oh man ( that's an attempt to show me licking my lips and being a bit Pavlov's salivating dog theory)

'uh yes, only the racist thais look embarrassed when confronted. do you consider it racist as well when you are served khao man gai without all the fat skin and gristle?'

Depriving the white man of fat skin and gristle is part of the new world order, right alongside making those really really small robotic devices; hentai and braces being fashionable. We is takin' ova!

oh sorry, must confirm to 'Asian' stereotype.

Hey you! I am deplive you der whi man no fa sa-kin an glistle ok? It same same you ol werl, we am new werl, light arongside make dem lelly lelly small lobotic devices, cartoon and blaces cool cool lah. All of your food....are now belong to us. Take your time.

[HS Mauberley]

Just the other day I ordered rad na talay in clear Thai and was given a completely different dish (not gravy) in a place where most of the Thai people were indeed eating proper rad na.

To the person who tells me it is my fault and not the restaurants fault when they bugger up my food when I did NOT ask them to, you live on a different planet than me, sorry. If I return to the Thai Chinese place in question, I think they will remember me already because I made them admit they would have brought entirely different food if I had not been a farang. The waitress looked very embarrassed when she admitted this, the kind of embarrassment a BUSTED racist would feel when confronted.

Congratulations. You managed to humiliate a waitress; you must feel so proud.

And as someone who is squealing so loudly about racism, don't you think you should cut down on the groundless and...racist...stereotypes.

Pure, unadulterated troll.

[guava]

I'm sure this happens, just pretty rarely. Jingthing - do you wear a money belt and carry a Lonely Planet when you walk the streets??

The notion that the average Thai waiter would even tell the chef which dishes a farang ordered, and the chef would then go out of their way to prepare them (dishes which are often at least partly prepared if not already cooked) completely differently for a farang without being specifically asked, and that they would do this often enough for you to have strong issue with the practise - it's all a little hard to swallow.

I find that (approximately) 100% of the time I get exactly the same meal as a Thai. Even if I DO ask for it to be prepared differently - basic stuff like pad thai/noodles without sugar, no coriander, no spare parts, coffee preferences, steak preferences, etc are ignored/forgotten as often as not.

If there is any differential treatment it is usually preferential - hardly something that warrants the "racism" cliche. Milding frustrating perhaps but they're hardly doing it out of spite.