Smell Like Tiananmen

[Pierrot]

The support for the PAD is vanishing.

The last polls are out : people in Bangkok (the main PAD supporters) are fed up with the demonstration, with the mess in the streets, they want their life back.

The business community made it clear, more demonstration will further damage the economy (does it really need it ?).

The army learned its lesson with the last coup. They too made it clear, it's now up to the police (the current government) to clear the mess.The sooner, the better.

It will be soon, it will be fast. PAD is over. Time to move on.

[Crushdepth]

And support for the - can we call it a government or is it a tribe of gibbons - is increasing?

[Guest Bellini]

Regarding the title of this topic I fail to see any connection with Tiananmen.

[micksterbs]

It'll fizzle-out of its own accord, especially if it starts to rain.

As for Tiananmen, I think you're being more than a little sensationalist.

[Briggsy]

It'll fizzle-out of its own accord, especially if it starts to rain.

As for Tiananmen, I think you're being more than a little sensationalist.

Seconded.

Perhaps the OP is seeking a job at the NME or even Militant (Is that still published?)

[Pierrot]

As for Tiananmen, I think you're being more than a little sensationalist.

I wish you're right.

What was the last word of the Chines goverment before sending the tanks ? "You've made your point, now it's time to go back home".

The people are tired of these demonstration. They are not stupid, they understand democracy. After every election in all democratic countries, 49% of the voters are not happy with the results. But they get along with it, they have learned long ago that a bad democratic government is better that a "good" dictature.

The army won't move. They are no stupid either, once bitten, twice shy. They said it, it's now up to the police to solve the problem.

Actually everybody agrees, this situation can't last any longer. Now the decision belongs to the PAD leader. But it has to be soon. If they don't move, the government will have no other choice but to act and it will fast and it might be brutal.

Edited May 31, 2008 by Pierrot

[Prakanong]

The support for the PAD is vanishing.

The last polls are out : people in Bangkok (the main PAD supporters) are fed up with the demonstration, with the mess in the streets, they want their life back.

The business community made it clear, more demonstration will further damage the economy (does it really need it ?).

The army learned its lesson with the last coup. They too made it clear, it's now up to the police (the current government) to clear the mess.The sooner, the better.

It will be soon, it will be fast. PAD is over. Time to move on.

forget about tianemen what the west still moan about - they never moan about Thailand 92 do they?

What about 73 and 76 - wiped from history mostly but then again Thailand was a freind of the west.

[Groongthep]

What about 73 and 76 - wiped from history mostly but then again Thailand was a freind of the west.

The two major works written on modern Thai history are David Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History" and "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker and Dr. Pasuk Pongpaichit. Both these books clearly describe the events of 1973 and 1976. Many other acadmic works have covered these events too, some in great detail. Where do you get the idea that they are being "wiped from history"?

[Samuian]

Hold it!

Comes Sunday evening, the majority will disperse, Samak is barking up a tree - at least he has to say something!

He's the Captain right now, isn't he?

[grantbkk]

Friends in the north and someone here in BKK are telling me about troop movements and that a coup d'état is imminient this weekend. Can we clear this up? I have an appointment on lower Sukhumvit for happy hour today.

[Briggsy]

Sundays are the preferred days for coups, I believe.

[grantbkk]

Sundays are the preferred days for coups, I believe.

That's what I thought too. It makes sense but TIT. I'm going to take my chances.

[Prakanong]

What about 73 and 76 - wiped from history mostly but then again Thailand was a freind of the west.

The two major works written on modern Thai history are David Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History" and "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker and Dr. Pasuk Pongpaichit. Both these books clearly describe the events of 1973 and 1976. Many other acadmic works have covered these events too, some in great detail. Where do you get the idea that they are being "wiped from history"?

We can assume your depth of knowledge when you refer to them as major works - what an arrogant assumption that the major works are in English

Are those books (which I can see on my bookshelf right now) on the Thai curriculim?

Do they cover in great detail what happened and name names - no they bottle it like many others

It actually laughable that you refer to those books - Thailand bans books like nazi Germany did (as does Singapore where I live)

Edited May 31, 2008 by Prakanong

[Groongthep]

What about 73 and 76 - wiped from history mostly but then again Thailand was a freind of the west.

The two major works written on modern Thai history are David Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History" and "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker and Dr. Pasuk Pongpaichit. Both these books clearly describe the events of 1973 and 1976. Many other acadmic works have covered these events too, some in great detail. Where do you get the idea that they are being "wiped from history"?

We can assume your depth of knowledge when you refer to them as major works - what an arrogant assumption that the major works are in English

Are those books (which I can see on my bookshelf right now) on the Thai curriculim?

Do they cover in great detail what happened and name names - no they bottle it like many others

It actually laughable that you refer to those books - Thailand bans books like nazi Germany did (as does Singapore where I live)

You claimed that the events of 73 and 76 were somehow being 'wiped from history". I simply contered that there are many works in english that cover the events. I have attended courses at Chula and can tell you that all three of the authors I mentioned are held in high esteem by the members of the faculty that I have met at that institution. Dr. Pasuk still teaches there and Dr. Wyatt did years of research there. I may not be the great academic that you are but it would appear obvious to most people who are interested in the subject that there is no sinister conspiracy to cover up the events of 73 to 76. You have not given a shred of evidence to prove otherwise.

[Prakanong]

What about 73 and 76 - wiped from history mostly but then again Thailand was a freind of the west.

The two major works written on modern Thai history are David Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History" and "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker and Dr. Pasuk Pongpaichit. Both these books clearly describe the events of 1973 and 1976. Many other acadmic works have covered these events too, some in great detail. Where do you get the idea that they are being "wiped from history"?

We can assume your depth of knowledge when you refer to them as major works - what an arrogant assumption that the major works are in English

Are those books (which I can see on my bookshelf right now) on the Thai curriculim?

Do they cover in great detail what happened and name names - no they bottle it like many others

It actually laughable that you refer to those books - Thailand bans books like nazi Germany did (as does Singapore where I live)

You claimed that the events of 73 and 76 were somehow being 'wiped from history". I simply contered that there are many works in english that cover the events. I have attended courses at Chula and can tell you that all three of the authors I mentioned are held in high esteem by the members of the faculty that I have met at that institution. Dr. Pasuk still teaches there and Dr. Wyatt did years of research there. I may not be the great academic that you are but it would appear obvious to most people who are interested in the subject that there is no sinister conspiracy to cover up the events of 73 to 76. You have not given a shred of evidence to prove otherwise.

Those guys are excellent academics and no one could say different least of all me. Sorry but the events of 73, 76 and 92 are dealt with minimally and pretty much glossed over. Maybe Handley was closer to the truth but his book is banned???

Ask Thai's what they know of those events and who was behind them - yes its wiped from history (get the context I am saying this or is the nuance too much for you?) and can not be talked about here or openly in Thailand and you should well know that

As for the context how many times will you hear Tainemen in this Olympic year and how much was the slaughter in May 92 reported in the west?

Edited May 31, 2008 by Prakanong

[toptuan]

Sundays are the preferred days for coups, I believe.

I prefer weekdays. Last coup, we got a day off school. Where can I vote my preference?

[Groongthep]

Ask Thai's what they know of those events and who was behind them - yes its wiped from history (get the context I am saying this or is the nuance too much for you?) and can not be talked about here or openly in Thailand and you should well know that

OK, I will agree that what everyone knows about the involvement of the son of a particularly prominent Thai in the massacre at Thammasat in 76 cannot be openly spoken of here. It is common knowledge just the same. Wyatt referred to this person in his book and it was not banned. I will also agree that we will probably never know the whole story due to the limitations on what can be said in Thailand. It was not my intention to offend you. It's just that the statement "wiped from history" struck me as being too strong and still does. Because it's not printed in Thailand doesn't mean people still don't talk about it; even in university classrooms. My apologies.

[Pierrot]

Who said people can't keep an argument civil on TV ?

[Scott]

Yes, it's nice to hear a reasonably civil discussion--and they are both correct, to some extent. Information, at least here, where it needs to be, is limited and pretty sanitary, but it does exist and I think there are writings outside the country that will eventually make it into the local history books.

This problem is pervasive in Asia (in the West as well, but to a lesser extent because of the freedom of the press). Whether it's the Japanese role in the rape of Nanjing or Tienamen Sq., it's hard to get countries to acknowledge, let alone accept responsibility for the past.

As for the situation here, I am not necessarily afraid of an iminent coup, but in the long term, one thing is certain: The military (nearly everywhere) does not learn it's lessons--if they did wars would be one helluva lot rarer than they are. If the police don't handle the situation, then the military will. Order is important here and in much of the rest of Asia. Much more important that freedoms or human rights.

[Pierrot]

I'm sorry to interrupt a very interesting argument as I don't have the erudition of the smart people above (the only books in my bookshelf are "The Essential Calvin and Hobbes" and a couple of travel guides) but I've the feeling we are missing the point here.

We are not talking about events that have happened in the past in Thailand (but also in Korea or in Argentina), and which were political in nature, but about a police operation dealing primarily with public disturbance.

The people form the PAD do not have political agenda (they were not even present during the last election), they are thugs for hire for second rate politicians who refuse to fight in the open and a couple of people with a very private agenda.

Actually it reminds me an old joke. Why are "The West Wing" and "The Sopranos" the most popular shows in the US? Because one describes the government as it should be and the other as it really is. Unfortunately, the leaders from the PAD are far from having the charisma of Tony Soprano.

[DP25]

It does smell like Tienanmen. Thousands of peaceful protesters about the get mercilessly slaughtered by their own government. I'm sure that will do wonders for the investment climate when it shows up on CNN.

[Pierrot]

It does smell like Tienanmen. Thousands of peaceful protesters about the get mercilessly slaughtered by their own government. I'm sure that will do wonders for the investment climate when it shows up on CNN.

Thousands ??? A few hundreds at most.

As for the "mercilessly slaughtered", I guess I'm not only one being more than a little sensationalist.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It does smell like Tienanmen. Thousands of peaceful protesters about the get mercilessly slaughtered by their own government. I'm sure that will do wonders for the investment climate when it shows up on CNN.

Thousands ??? A few hundreds at most.

As for the "mercilessly slaughtered", I guess I'm not only one being more than a little sensationalist.

If it does come to that, I suspect the military will not be on the side of the puppet government.

[Pierrot]

If it does come to that, I suspect the military will not be on the side of the puppet government.

What you call the "puppet" government has been elected by the people of Thailand.

Where does the PAD get its legitimacy from ? They were not even present during the election !!!!

And the answer to your question, from the BP :

Supreme Commander Gen Boonsang Niampradit yesterday said he opposed using troops to break up the protest, but noted that soldiers would obey the government's orders.

"A situation ends when troops are mobilised, but in most cases the result is tragic," he said.

End quote

Please read again the last sentence and if you still support the PAD protest, it raises serious question

[Prakanong]

Ask Thai's what they know of those events and who was behind them - yes its wiped from history (get the context I am saying this or is the nuance too much for you?) and can not be talked about here or openly in Thailand and you should well know that

OK, I will agree that what everyone knows about the involvement of the son of a particularly prominent Thai in the massacre at Thammasat in 76 cannot be openly spoken of here. It is common knowledge just the same. Wyatt referred to this person in his book and it was not banned. I will also agree that we will probably never know the whole story due to the limitations on what can be said in Thailand. It was not my intention to offend you. It's just that the statement "wiped from history" struck me as being too strong and still does. Because it's not printed in Thailand doesn't mean people still don't talk about it; even in university classrooms. My apologies.

I really do not mean to offend either - thanks

This is a country where they will not release the full report from the 98 Surat Thani air crash because it will offend families still living - they will never admit about 76 at al

My good friend and colleague who is Thai did not even know about 92 et al till I was discussing this with an Aussie in India over drinks - she asked her mother when she got home and was told we did not want to tell you as knowing may get you in trouble???

[PeaceBlondie]

This just in from the news wires, concerning the USA's Secretary (Minister) of Defense, Mr. Gates. "Following the conference, Gates flew to Thailand on Sunday where large anti-government demonstrations threaten to lead to the country's second military coup in two years. Gates said he was not concerned about the potentially difficult situation and that canceling his visit could cause more of a problem than continuing on. He said he would urge officials in Bangkok to move to a democratically elected government."

[Pierrot]

This just in from the news wires, concerning the USA's Secretary (Minister) of Defense, Mr. Gates. "Following the conference, Gates flew to Thailand on Sunday where large anti-government demonstrations threaten to lead to the country's second military coup in two years. Gates said he was not concerned about the potentially difficult situation and that canceling his visit could cause more of a problem than continuing on. He said he would urge officials in Bangkok to move to a democratically elected government."

I find the above post misleading, but as english is not my mother language, I will just copy the offical record of Mr Gates message :

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates flew into Thailand on Sunday with a clear message that Washington would take a dim view of any attempt by military leaders to seize power.

"Our position is pretty consistent. We want to see democratically elected governments and we will convey that," Gates told reporters in Singapore before heading for Bangkok.

Gates is scheduled to meet with the democratically elected Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej to renew acquaintances and to discuss issues here in the region.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Politics stink, always. It's none of my business, either. BUT calling this government "democratically elected" is a joke. It has paid for every single one of the votes it got. Taxi drivers who stick the PPP sticker on their car have been paid to do so, as have tuk tuk drivers. In Chiang Mai (the village where my BF's mum lives) 200 Baht was offered for every vote for PPP. Paid in advance, so on election day nothing could be observed. And those who took the money sure voted for PPP - everything else would be "cheating".

My boss told me just today to "better put your money offshore as there will be a new coup sooner rather than later and this one will not be bloodless".

I'm all for a communist revolution. Anyone with me?

Best regards.....

Thanh