Marrying A Monk

[Nampeung]

Mossfin what sort of answer is that mate

[Chang_paarp]

Mossfin what sort of answer is that mate

It makes more sense than some of the advice.

Back to the topic...

Please correct me if I am wrong in this synopsis.

You met a man who was a monk.

You both started a chaste relationship while he was still ordained.

He made a decision to disrobe with the blessing of his monastic superior.

You married, and had a child.

Father did a runner at some stage and decided that Cambodia was a better option that active parenting.

Father returned to the district you live in.

Child is now 14 years old.

Father is causing grief with the locals and showering you with same grief.

You have some health problems.

You are being told that your problems are a result of Karma and your son should enter the monastery to restore the balance.

The Karma issue is an interesting one as according the the teachings I have had, Karma returns to you in the next life as a result of the balance of your acts (both good and bad) in this life. As a result you may go higher in the cycle or lower. Instant Karma was invented fairly recently and does not necessarily reflect the teachings of the Buddha, but then again neither does a lot of the beliefs of modern Thais. There is a lot of Brahman and Hindu mysticism mixed into the belief mix here. As a example (I hope it is appropriate) some of the the funeral rites for the princess have been conducted by Brahman priests rather than Buddhist priests.

If your beliefs, and those of your son are along that line, he should spend some time in a monastery as part of his upbringing, as to when that is entirely up to you and him. Many people in Thailand believe that a person entering the sanga for even a brief time will assist in repairing any Karmic problems the family may have and some monasteries are better suited to this than others as they are more like a vacation camp for the young monks. Your son is of an age when many young Thais spend some time as a monk.

Your health problems will not be aided by worrying about this sort of thing. Make a decision to move forward and plan your life based on that. You will be able gather strength from your having some direction and develop the courage to face what comes your way.

Good luck for the future, try to keep a positive attitude as it helps dealing with the stuff that happens around you.

[Pepe']

I met my husband when he was a monk in Bkk, we conducted a relationship/courtship without touch or close contact and decided to marry. He asked the head monk and approval was given. When he moved in with me the same day he disrobed it was apparent we were not going to get along unless serious changes were made on both sides. After 3 months I got pregnant with our son ... a wonderful boy.

Anyway now, a thai woman to whom i confessed this story is telling me that to appease my own bad karma from marrying a monk... my son must ordain as a monk for a while and then I will be okay... as in my bad karma will be lifted if my son ordains as a monk.

What do you think?

There is no such thing as a bad karma as long as you don't believe in it yourself. Noone else than yourself can judge about that and for sure no other Thai woman.

If you believe in such things (what I think else you wouldn't post here) go and try to ask the head monk there (or if not possible another higher monk) for his advice and not just one thai woman who has nothing to do with that.

That's not the way it works according to what I've learned.

Example;

Police Sir the reason I pulled you over is you "ran the red light."

h90 I don't believe I have to stop for the red light.

Police Can I see you driver's license and registration please.

h90 I don't believe I need a driver's license and registration to drive.

Police Sir get out of the car. Place your hands on your head. You are under arrest. You have the right to remain silent etc.

And off to jail you go. Karma is like that Even though you don't believe.

Karma is based on the laws of nature which are very stringent. If you put your hand in fire you will get burned, guaranteed no matter what you beleive.

If you put your hand in the freezer long enough it will freeze and then fall off, guaranteed no matter what you personally believe.

The laws of nature are imutable and consistent. This is how karma works. We are all suject to it even though you don't believe it.

We make karma with every breath we take as we breath in and kill microbes. With every step we take crushing countless ants and other insects.

To the OP. The advice that h90 is not good. Karma is very real. However I would be more concerned about living on the carcasses of innocent animals that were painfully slaughtered to provide tastety meals.

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

[Travel2003]

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

Money back guarantee????

If it does not work, who do I complain too?

After all it is guaranteed, right??

[quiksilva]

I don't see the problem. Don't most Thai men become ordained for a short while?

Having previously been ordained does not seem to exclude them from having healthy relationships and marriage later in life.

If it did, I think there would be a significantly lower number of monks in Thailand!

Carry on as you were Namphueng

[Pepe']

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

Money back guarantee????

p---Never mentioned money. Really what are you on????

If it does not work, who do I complain too?

p--- The devil.

After all it is guaranteed, right??

p---Send a bunch of money and will talk AH...

[elsie]

I don't see the problem. Don't most Thai men become ordained for a short while?

Having previously been ordained does not seem to exclude them from having healthy relationships and marriage later in life.

The problem was, they conducted a relationship while he was still a monk.

[lardy]

Mossfin what sort of answer is that mate

Stop believing all the crap these people tell you and lead your own life the Father is obviosuly a complete <deleted> closely followed by the superstitious Thai woman closely followed by anyone who believes this rubbish.

[girlx]

agreed. don't believe everything someone tells you. figure it out for yourself!

[Travel2003]

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

Money back guarantee????

p---Never mentioned money. Really what are you on????

If it does not work, who do I complain too?

p--- The devil.

After all it is guaranteed, right??

p---Send a bunch of money and will talk AH...

I know you didnt talk about money. It was an expression. Never heard that one before????

We were discussing this lady's problem, touching some other issues on the way, then you pop up starting to "preach" your belief in life. Talking about the microbs we kill by breathing, the meat we eat, etc.

What I am on? Right now, coffee. Ohhh, guess the coffee beans are living creatures as well.

Bad carma for me.

[Sheryl]

OP, for what it is worth (speaking as one who most definiotely does believe in the ;aw of karma):

1) Your son's ordaining or not has no impact on your karma. What kind of mother you are to him, on the other hand, does, and a good mother would not push her son to ordain to help ease her own guilt.

2) A person should ordain only if they, themselves, feel a sincere calling to do so, and are old enough to make that choice.

So forget THAT advice.

Now as to whether or not you incurred any bad karma because of involvement with a monk: maybe, but not of the magnitude that woman you spoke to implied..and it sounds like you have paid for your mistake already many times over in the misery it brought you in the long term.

We ALL incur bad karma, unless we are enlightened beings. The important thing is to learn from it, accept it, accept the consequences (which do not necessarily wait for another lifetime) and move on, resolving to not make the same mistake in future. That's all.

Concentrate on trying to lead a good life in the here and now and being a good mother to your son. That lingering sense of guilt/unease can be turned into something positive if you think of it (and all other mistakes you may have made in your life) as a stone on one of those 2-sided weighing things, and good things you do as weights you add to the other side. Do as much good as you can, knowing that you haven't led a perfect life but that every good act tips the scales back in a wholesome direction.

Karma is a dynamic state that we are every single minute creating and changing for either better or for worse.

[wolf5370]

You (OP) obviously have some belief in karma or Buddhism to have taken this to heart. So to all those who tell you its rubbish etc, you are not helping - she wants clarification not conversion.

Buddhism is somewhat like general law (IMO at least) in that you must have Mens Rea (a guilty mind).

On his ordination he made ten promises, the third being:

Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami

(I undertake to abstain from any sexual contact).

This is 'defined' in a myriad of ways - i.e. what is 'sexual contact' (don't ask Clinton!). The Sangha has 'asked' that women do not touch monks nor to pass them anything directly (in case hands touch). This is NOT a precept, it is a guide for the lay person. This is where we come back to 'mens rea'. If he believed that he was breaking this precept by having a relationship with you, then he would be damaging his Karma. If, by the same token, he convinced you that it was OK as long as you did not touch and waited until he was ready to return to common life, and you truly believed this, then there can be no damage to your Karma. If, on the other hand, you believed it was wrong, then the opposite is true.

Now, assuming you believe some damage to your Karma has been done, then there are two things you can do: You can visit the temple and speak to the abbot and ask for him to cleanse you (a small ceremony where you kneel down and are covered with a shroud and hold a piece of twine. The monks chant and you are turned around (they ask you, not physically move you) to face the opposite direction. It lasts all of ten minutes and you are spiritually reborn afterwards. Secondly, balance the Karma - i.e. follow your conscience here - this doesn't mean giving away all your money, as someone said, being a good mother to your son bilds good Karma too.

As to the boy. Your Karma will not affect him (or you until your next life). If you have brought him up to be a Buddhist and he wants to dedicate a few weeks to Buddhist study and monkhood, then why not let him. Otherwise, forcing him will do nothing good for your Karma - and little to endear him to the religion.

Remeber, after all this, life is today not yesterday, nor tomorrow. Yesterday we can't change and tomorrow we can not dictate. If you were happy in yourself until this foolish lady frightened you? If yes, then ignore her and live your life and love your son.

Good luck.

[jumnien]

There is karma; there is not my karma and your karma and his karma. There is just karma. Beyond ego.

[jingjingna]

I can't understand why you won't just leave it be and get on with your life? You knew fully well that he was a monk when you met him, the fact that he was so impatient to disrobe speaks volumes. If there's any 'BAD' karma involved it will be heading his way, not yours, lghten up and enjoy life as you should with your son

[Mossfinn]

Mossfin what sort of answer is that mate

OK, I was being a little flippant.

The point I was making in an obtuse or smoke and mirrors sense, was when I was growing up and not always toeing the good line I was threatened with being sent to the Christian Brothers or the Jesuits, now that is a fate you don't want to have realized upon you.

However, similarly, this woman who you have just met, know nothing about, obviously she knows nothing about you and yet you feel there is something concrete in this belief system called Karma, that she is relating to you.

Both are analgous in manner and you could always substitute either Ogre with some other unfortunate Monster.

Your health is down to the fact you caught a wholly nasty little bug that is indiscriminate in its attachment to people, although you well know there are distinct groups at risk, your disablement comes from non and mis-diagnosis not Karma, whatever that might mean.

Because of the Dalai Lama's recent visit to Oxford there has been quite a lot of debate in the press regarding Buddhism and Karma came up several times, people have a varying degree or misunderstanding what it means or its purpose, personally I do not understand it nor want to.

I have known Nun's who have broke from the Convent and married, they must have conveyed some sort of romance, unless they followed their Faith and so undertook a, 'Leap of Faith'.

You were ill and now disabled because of the bug, not what you have previously done, although there are some who will say, the bug visited you because of your previous alleged mis-deeds, horsehockey!!

I caught TB and I never had any solicitations with a Monk and as far as I can remember with any Sister of Mercy either

Flippancy again, but the best way forward is to look after yourself, take care of your son and use another market, allied to being very circumspect with certain responses on here.

Good Luck

Moss

[rgs2001uk]

Mossfinn,

excellent reply, you have worded it way better than i ever could.

personally i stopped believing in the bogey man about the same time i stopped believing in santa claus.

the ironic thing is, if people want to carry round a burden of guilt, as they say in thailand, up to you.

[Pepe']

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

Money back guarantee????

p---Never mentioned money. Really what are you on????

If it does not work, who do I complain too?

p--- The devil.

After all it is guaranteed, right??

p---Send a bunch of money and will talk AH...

I know you didnt talk about money. It was an expression. Never heard that one before????

We were discussing this lady's problem, touching some other issues on the way, then you pop up starting to "preach" your belief in life. Talking about the microbs we kill by breathing, the meat we eat, etc.

What I am on? Right now, coffee. Ohhh, guess the coffee beans are living creatures as well.

Bad carma for me.

Not preaching just repeating what has been said by Lord Buddha and believed by countless Budhhist.

This was intended to help and encourage the OP.

Please stuff another burger in your mouth and be quiet.

You should eat lots of meat more and more. Try it, ou will feel awful, guaranteed...

[dave111223]

That's not the way it works according to what I've learned.

Example;

Police Sir the reason I pulled you over is you "ran the red light."

h90 I don't believe I have to stop for the red light.

Police Can I see you driver's license and registration please.

h90 I don't believe I need a driver's license and registration to drive.

Police Sir get out of the car. Place your hands on your head. You are under arrest. You have the right to remain silent etc.

And off to jail you go. Karma is like that Even though you don't believe.

Karma is based on the laws of nature which are very stringent. If you put your hand in fire you will get burned, guaranteed no matter what you beleive.

If you put your hand in the freezer long enough it will freeze and then fall off, guaranteed no matter what you personally believe.

The laws of nature are imutable and consistent. This is how karma works. We are all suject to it even though you don't believe it.

We make karma with every breath we take as we breath in and kill microbes. With every step we take crushing countless ants and other insects.

To the OP. The advice that h90 is not good. Karma is very real. However I would be more concerned about living on the carcasses of innocent animals that were painfully slaughtered to provide tastety meals.

One of the best thing you can do to atone is to stop lving at the expense and suffering of other living creatures.

Try it. You'll be fine, guaranteed

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true (and certainly doesn't make it a "law of nature").

2.1 billion people think you are going to hel_l for worshiping false idols:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Does that make it true that you will be going to hel_l? (hopefully not)

It's only a fool who states religious beliefs as if they are "facts".

Edited June 2, 2008 by dave111223

[Travel2003]

Please stuff another burger in your mouth and be quiet.

You should eat lots of meat more and more. Try it, ou will feel awful, guaranteed...

mmmm, good advice.

A burger would be perfect now.

Thnx a lot for that advice.

[Nampeung]

Okay, okay okay... Thanks all, I was never terribly worried or stressing about this (interesting what an internet forum can drum up) I just wanted to ask your opinions and I got them, thanks. I am not going to follow this sort of blind faith crap - thanks you to all those who suggested as such!!! If anything it was my ex who was in the wrong but I'm going to do what some of you lovely peeps said and 'get on with the rest of my life and make sure my son has the best upbringing possible - no fear of that now, we are both very happy

[geriatrickid]

Lemme see, if I came up to you and said that letting a black cat walk in front of you was bad luck or stepping on a sidewalk crack would break your mother's back, would you listen to me? No?

Well what if I told you I had a few uni diplomas so I was mighty smart? You'd tell me to go get bent, right?

So how come you're concerned about what some semi literate superstitious meddler has to say? If she's such an expert on karma how come this expert hasn't used her karma divining skills to pick the winning lottery numbers and karmaed her way to easy riches? Pay her no heed and raise your son as best you can. Don't look back, don't have regrets and move forward for both you and your kid's sake.

Nampeung, worrying about things which are our of your control can make you ill, certainly.

I remember when my son was born a neighbour telling us that it was unlucky to have pups in the same house as our new baby and we should terminate our dog's pregnancy. I just ignored her. I remember when my wife's mother wanted him to wear an amulet at night for luck, but I said no because of the risk of cot death.

Looks like a little someone has a pretty smart dad and one that will be able to deliver on what a dad is supposed to do.