The West Is A "house Of Cards"

[Pepe']

Here in the US atleast, the ranks of the "working poor" are sky rocketing along with those who have no health coverage.

We hear daily that social security for the next generation is finished.

In ten to twelve years it is estimated that one will need 70% of ones yearly income to retire (that's a good one).

The military budjet is astronomical with record federal and state deficits soaring.

Cost of living is going up,wages are going down.

In my opinion it's all being held together with "spit and tie wire."

When I ask my wife about Thailand she says, "If your rich you can have a good life.

If not Thailand is sht, it has allways been sht Thailand never changes"

[Neeranam]

"Freedom 's just another word for nothin' left to loose"

Wise words, and a bloody good song!

[mbkudu]

When I ask my wife about Thailand she says, "If your rich you can have a good life.

If not Thailand is sht, it has allways been sht Thailand never changes"

Pepe, I'll agree, but not with the last part. In Thaialnd it is still possible to live a modest, rural lifestyle for most Thai people in the countryside. My wife once told me, "My mother and father are not rich, but they have their land and enough food for all their children." There are no homeless people in Isaan; everybody has a place to live that they can afford to live in.

[SoCal]

So the west is a terrible place because social security may not hold out? Lot's of countries have never, nor will they ever offer such a program.

Couldn't have anything to do with people living longer, could it? When social security was created most didn't live to 60. Now they live to 80, with very little done in revising the system due to a bunch of old farts and their lobyists.

Cost of living going up? Inflation is what? 1 1/2%? Why don't you go visit Argentina, and tell me what a wheel barrel of currency will buy you. Gas is still a bargain concerning inflation over the last 40 years, and what many other developed countries spend. Housing is huge in some markets, but the key here is some markets. Move to the mid-west Pepe, and buy a mansion. San Diego is one of the best cities in America, and you want to complain because others want to live there?

Thailand is somehow preferable because people have enough to eat? That's the biggest problem in America, finding something to eat.

Here's an idea. The world is a big place, and all kinds of options. Go find your happiness instead of sitting in front of a ###### computer screen bitching about your life, your country, or someone else's for that matter.

If you have found happiness, then cherish everyday, and watch who you tell, where you are.

[Pepe']

When I ask my wife about Thailand she says, "If your rich you can have a good life.

If not Thailand is sht, it has allways been sht Thailand never changes"

Pepe, I'll agree, but not with the last part. In Thaialnd it is still possible to live a modest, rural lifestyle for most Thai people in the countryside. My wife once told me, "My mother and father are not rich, but they have their land and enough food for all their children." There are no homeless people in Isaan; everybody has a place to live that they can afford to live in.

I guess my wife also says kind of the same thing as well sometimes. She is a Bangkok girl though and is going for it.

I feel like I'm just along for the ride these days. It's not bad. The ride that is...

[Pepe']

So the west is a terrible place because social security may not hold out? Lot's of countries have never, nor will they ever offer such a program.

Couldn't have anything to do with people living longer, could it? When social security was created most didn't live to 60. Now they live to 80, with very little done in revising the system due to a bunch of old farts and their lobyists.

Cost of living going up? Inflation is what? 1 1/2%? Why don't you go visit Argentina, and tell me what a wheel barrel of currency will buy you. Gas is still a bargain concerning inflation over the last 40 years, and what many other developed countries spend. Housing is huge in some markets, but the key here is some markets. Move to the mid-west Pepe, and buy a mansion. San Diego is one of the best cities in America, and you want to complain because others want to live there?

Thailand is somehow preferable because people have enough to eat? That's the biggest problem in America, finding something to eat.

Here's an idea. The world is a big place, and all kinds of options. Go find your happiness instead of sitting in front of a ###### computer screen bitching about your life, your country, or someone else's for that matter.

If you have found happiness, then cherish everyday, and watch who you tell, where you are.

SoCal,

Well thanks for setting me straight, I needed that.

Oh yeah I'll be looking over my shoulder now...

[Simbo]

: This idea some morons have that the west is going down the ' Swanee' is ill founded. If you look at the western counties progress since the war, they are coming on in leaps and bounds, no matter what the critics say,

The biggest problems the west has, all stems from 3rd world countries dragging it down.

All my life I have heard gloom and doom in the media, but when I lived in the UK, I got progressively better off as time went by.

I'm here, not because my country is going down hill, but because I like the climate and lifestyle here.

Stop knocking the country that kept you for so long.

[Dickie]

Interesting point. If you consider the large number of businesses selling into the US that would fall apart if their market dried up it will give you some idea as to why the US can continue to finance its lifestyle by borrowing fantastic amounts of cash from the rest of the world.

China and India have still to 'come online' but that's only just around the corner. When those markets are developed the ROTW won't be so dependent on the US to keep the cash churning around. There is a worry, maybe well-founded, that as the importance of the US as a market declines there will be less money lent to it. When that happens it will be hard for the country to continue as it is with the crushingly huge debt hanging over it, which equals ridiculously high interest payments.

Another scenario is for the money to dry up anyway, whcih would almost certainly precipitate a crash of 747-proportions.

Now, no expert, me. Those are just things I've read in the financial papers, written by people with more nouse than me.

[SoCal]

Pepe,

Wasn't so long ago that you were looking at moving to Thailand, then decided to stay in the US because of all it had to offer.

I'm just not a doom and gloom sort of person. If it all comes down, then I will deal with it, but does nothing to dwell on it. People have been thinking the world is comming to an end for thousands of years. How lucky am I to see it?

From what I know of you Pepe, you have a pretty good life, and you should be ###### happy, for most do not have what you have.

My advice to you is stop following the election. That is enough to make anyone nuts, and think the world is comming to an end. In fact, we're making a choice on which of the morons represents the lesser of two evils, and in four years we can decide again. No big worry.

So count your blessings, and enjoy your life. If you don't think you have it so well, or that the west is collapsing, by all means make a trip to So. America or Thailand, and see how truly lucky you are.

PS- Look over your shoulder? I tell you not to tell people where you are if you find paradise. Everyone will come and destroy it. Got it?

SoCal

[mbkudu]

There is no money. 'Money' exists on paper and mostly on computer screens, but it is not backed up by anything. The national debt means nothing to the US government because they just 'create' more and more 'money.' I am not sure when, but eventually it will catch up and the consequences could be devastating.

[SoCal]

Americans are victims of their own creation.

It is all sovable, and truly not that bad, albeit getting steadily worse.

The problem with most Americans (Europeans for that matter addressing many of the same issues) is that no one wants to bite the bullet, and do what is required now to not place the yoke upon their children's necks.

We are the me generation. Enjoy for tomorrow you die.

Or, maybe you move to Thailand.

What do I know.

[GuestHouse]

Two things.

There is a culture of self criticism in the west that does not exist in Asia. This must be born in mind when we hear critisism of the west but little or nothing from Asians regarding Asian.

A second thing to remember is the west has come to terms with itself we have continet wide wars over the last few centuries and have finally put in place political and multinational governance that is giving us a peace bonus.

That cannot be said of Asia and particularly SE Asia. I fear that SE Asia is facing an uncertain future and that the lack of institutions, experience and indeed politcal will is going to eventually lead SE Asia to conflict.

I believe that conflict might very well start over water. Or it might wait until China has sufficient military and ecconomic power to flex its muscles without fear of western (US) intervention.

Witness the inability of Asian nations to deal with Human rights, corss border conflict, or unilateral decisions that have direct impact on neighbouring nations - Dams and Clearing of the Mekhongs is a perfect example.

It does not look good.

[Spee]

Sorry to disagree Pepe', but methinks you have a dose of the chicken little syndrome (i.e., the sky is falling).

As others have indicated, there is no perfect place and things certainly aren't all bad in the states (or in LoS or in many other places around the world).

Employment in the states is about as low as it can get, excepting for the hard-core unemployed who either can't or don't want to work. Now if you want to say something about low minimum wages, then that's a different story. Then again, minimum wage is just that, a minimum. No one, including the government ever intended for people to support a family on it.

As for some of the other chicken littles in your post:

- social security may well be a little dicey, but if you are like me, then you are not counting on it anyway, anything gotten from it will be lucky IMHO; though I don't think the government will let it go under, not because they care but because it is one of the golden geese in the political system

- health care problems are a myth, whether we like it or not, the states has the best medical system in the world bar none; more than 3/4 of all americans have some sort of health insurance and for those who don't or can't afford it, existing laws state that these people cannot be refused treatment

Like some others replying, I've been around the block a bit as well. For all of its problems, the states are still a premium place to live. If it were any other way, we wouldn't have the record immigration rates that we have. Same goes for other places like the UK, which also have high immigration rates. It is reflective of the quality of life available if one wants to do what is necessary to achieve it.

I think the same also goes for Thailand. There is a healthy quality of life available there, too, if one wants to do what is necessary to achieve it.

[pantarei]

Pepe,

You forgot to mention earthquakes, volcano eruptions, and meteorite/comet impacts.

"There is nothing dumber than betting against America. It hasn't worked since 1776."

-- Warren Buffett (in the wake of the terrorist attacks, Wall Street Journal, 9/24/01)

Buffet used this idea to make 40 billion $$. Apparently, almost all of it has gone/will go to charity.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

So the west is a terrible place because social security may not hold out? Lot's of countries have never, nor will they ever offer such a program.

Couldn't have anything to do with people living longer, could it? When social security was created most didn't live to 60. Now they live to 80, with very little done in revising the system due to a bunch of old farts and their lobyists. 

Cost of living going up? Inflation is what? 1 1/2%? Why don't you go visit Argentina, and tell me what a wheel barrel of currency will buy you. Gas is still a bargain concerning inflation over the last 40 years, and what many other developed countries spend. Housing is huge in some markets, but the key here is some markets. Move to the mid-west Pepe, and buy a mansion. San Diego is one of the best cities in America, and you want to complain because others want to live there?

Thailand is somehow preferable because people have enough to eat? That's the biggest problem in America, finding something to eat. 

Here's an idea. The world is a big place, and all kinds of options. Go find your happiness instead of sitting in front of a ###### computer screen bitching about your life, your country, or someone else's for that matter.

If you have found happiness, then cherish everyday, and watch who you tell, where you are.     

SoCal,

Well thanks for setting me straight, I needed that.

Oh yeah I'll be looking over my shoulder now...

Are you still planning the move to Thailand Pepe ?

[SoCal]

There is no question that the US will fall from hegenomy.

When it will, and who will replace is beyond me, although I am reasonably sure that those who think they know the answer are wrong.

Not even sure I care, as there is life after hegenomy. Right Brittain?

To those that feel they know all the answers, I will recall the 1970's when most of the world counted the US out of the game, and further denounced democracy and capitalism. It was truly our lowest moment.

Who were the powers we lost to?

1) Communism, and the Soviet Socialist Republic.

2) Japan

You guys can go and place your bets, but vegas has better odds.

[meemiathai]

Whatever it is, just don't let this happen!

If the good old US of A does not find a way to stop China... then China will become the number one World Power with India being second... and it will take less than 20 years.

[PeaceBlondie]

Lots of good points being made here.

IMO as an American expatriate, I'm sure the present status is due for a change, where there's only one world superpower. America will decline in the coming decades because of its national debt, various social problems, being too big to govern, being too big for its britches at this time, lots of other reasons. But I doubt the USA will fall in one big hard crash; probably little crashes, and it will stumble along, like the UK.

China is almost a superpower already, but it has too many mouths to feed, and the govt. is far too centralized. India - almost a superpower, too many mouths to feed. Both these countries have very low overall GDP per capita.

Except militarily, Japan is already a superpower, even though it's bankrupt!

Empires have always fallen. 1990/1991 proved that a superpower can fall almost overnight, while a CIA manager's on vacation. Nowadays, empires fall far faster and harder than they did in Roman days. A wag has a new book entitled, "The Empire Has No Clothes."

The USA is a great place to live, if you have $3,000 per month take home pay. Otherwise, it sucks (as far as personal economics go).

[phormio]

Signs of advanced decay of western society, particularly the US, are everywhere. They teach US schoolkids, as they taught me, that Rome fell due to its immorality - it committed suicide, betrayed by the greed,venality, and shortsightedness of its eminent citizens. RING ANY BELLS? The last 10 or 20 yrs in the US have been one huge freaking party of corrupt freaks taking their cream off the top - it just goes on and on and on. The US is not dealing with the central issues that are facing its people in a rational way. Sooner or later(maybe we'll be lucky?) this is going to catch up with US. We otta get rid of the nukes before the poopies hit the turbines.

long live caesar

[Ricardo]

Buffet used this idea to make 40 billion $$.  Apparently, almost all of it has gone/will go to charity.

Good for him !

Firstly for making it.

Secondly for Doing Good with a significant part of it.

There is a lesson-for-life in there somewhere.

[igotworms]

"Here in the US atleast, the ranks of the "working poor" are sky rocketing along with those who have no health coverage."

For the most part, the health care disaster looming in the States is an American problem, not a Western problem. Universal healthcare is the solution, however doing such for 300 million Americans might not be so easy to implement.

In Scandanavia and Canada for example, universal health care has it's kinks, but at least every member of the population is guaranteed free health care.

As for unemployment, the growing gap between the rich and the poor, health care, etc, you can help change that by voting for a responsible government in the States. However, that is easier said than done, as your two-party system is one of the most ineffective systems in the world.

Kerry, Bush...Republican, Democratic....are they really different? They're all corporate sluts in my opinion, with their noses and pockets crammed up the <deleted> of lobbyists and big business.

The epicenter of the house cards lies in the Whitehouse. It's time for a new foundation.

[igotworms]

China and India have limited natural resources. Their infinitely growing populations and the fact that China and India are raping their lands at a rate beyond what the western world has ever shamefully done is heading them towards complete and utter disaster.

The real super power lying dormant as we speak is Russia. They are by far the richest in natural resources. Once they sort out this quagmire of corruption and dark influence, they may one day take the helm as world leader.

[daveh]

As for unemployment, the growing gap between the rich and the poor, health care, etc, you can help change that by voting for a responsible government in the States.  However, that is easier said than done, as your two-party system is one of the most ineffective systems in the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is a huge misconception people have about America. The middle class is growing and growing and growing. The gap is not getting larger, it is getting smaller. Currently, a record number of people own their homes instead of renting.

I'm a bit surprised to see someone that has knowledge about Thailand make a statement regarding the gap between rich and poor in America. The gap is tiny in America compared to Thailand.

[SoCal]

UK backed off quietly from it's hegenomy where?

America? India?

Hegemons don't back down quietly. For what? The betterment of man? Give me a break.

If you are refering to those countries given up at the end of WWII, it is because it could no longer control it's empire.

[SoCal]

China without a doubt is a power, but ready to be hegemon? Not likely.

Have you been to China?

China can barely take care of it's own people. You go to Shanghai & Beijing, and it is quite amazing, but if you venture into the periphery you will see the real China. Most are sustinence farmers not allowed to travel for fear that they see how the rest live. Most of China lives in the 1940's, if not earlier.

Easy to say that China will be the next hegemon, but only if the US will be the hegemon for the rest of our natural lives.

Truth is that the next "world order" will likely be a muti-polar world, based on regional hegenomy. ie- USA, EU (if they can get their act together), and China.

India- ?

Russia- for what? Old time sakes?

[penzman]

Currently, a record number of people own their homes instead of renting.

How many of these homes are all paid up?

[Pepe']

The board went down just as I had posted a long reply. Don't ya hate when that happens.

However I'll try to recap. I'm actually pretty OK in my life actually it's others that I'm concerned about, children and seniors.

I'm veiwing things alot through the eyes of practicing medicine in a family practice

five days a week.

The medical system is in crisis, period. I see it every day. The way seniors are treated is just a pet peeve of mine. After all it was their blood sweat and tears that built the place now all of a sudden they become disposable.

Those thirty and younger are mearly a generation of consumers who blow all their money because there really is little hope of getting into a nice property or three so just enjoy for today.

My real interests are spiritual ones. I don't talk much about it though because I'm not a good example.

Doc,

Thailand is off for now because my wifes sister moved here from Quebec and they are having way too much fun in So. Cal.

I would prefer to be in Thailand. These days I'm pretty detached though and feel more and more like I'm just along for the ride. And a pretty interesting ride it is.

I don't beleive that the sky is falling but there are some very dark clouds in the sky.

"The West is the best, Get here and we'll do the rest" , Jim Morrison

And remember...

[phormio]

...

Rome probably fell for the same reason all empires fall... it becomes too expensive to control... As I said in another forum, the world revolves around Money. When the time comes... we'd better just hope that the USA will fade slowly like the UK... and not... well... that ain't worth thinking about!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It relied on expansion to keep it going, when it reached the limits of its ability to expand, it collapsed. The gang at the top tried to get out with its wealth.

Kaboom.

Least they didn't have the means to blow it all-the-fuque up...

"The Dark Side is Pretty Dark", phormio

-----------------------------------------------------------------

China and India have limited natural resources.  Their infinitely growing populations and the fact that China and India are raping their lands at a rate beyond what the western world has ever shamefully done is heading them towards complete and utter disaster. 

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As it turns out, China's done pretty good at cooling down its population growth, unlike the US. Worldwide total fertility rates lead to population stabilization in the last quarter of this century at around a peak level 8-10 billion peoplel. The problem in China and India are that consumption levels are rapidly escalating. US and Europe need to bring consumption levels down while convincing Asia to do the same. Didn't say it'd be easy, did I? (Source of lots of info "One With Nineveh" by Paul Ehrlich & wife, though don't blame the author for my mis-paraphrase of many of his ideas)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

UK backed off quietly from it's hegenomy where?

America? India?

Hegemons don't back down quietly. For what? The betterment of man? Give me a break.

If you are refering to those countries given up at the end of WWII, it is because it could no longer control it's empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ain't it rich? France uses English Colony America, named after an Italian, to kick some English Ass. Then France tanks. Two centuries later, America takes over as world ruler by deliberately bankrupting England while the Brits are trying to defend themselves from other encroachers. Don't think the Brits just walked away, yet they could read the writing on the wall. The Brits may have been nasty-bugger-all while building up their empire, but IMHO were relatively restrained when letting go.

Somehow it doesn't seem the American ruling classes are going to exit center stage without extracting the ultimate sacrifice from untold millions - hopefully extinction of the species will be avoided - but their is not much reason for optimism, In My Humble Opinion.

Cheers!

P.S.: I be a Yank, when referring to Americans as "they" I be referring to the Idiots Upstairs who be running the bloody show.

[Pepe']

[

Ain't it rich? France uses English Colony America, named after an Italian, to kick some English Ass. Then France tanks. Two centuries later, America takes over as world ruler by deliberately bankrupting England while the Brits are trying to defend themselves from other encroachers. Don't think the Brits just walked away, yet they could read the writing on the wall. The Brits may have been nasty-bugger-all while building up their empire, but IMHO were relatively restrained when letting go.

Somehow it doesn't seem the American ruling classes are going to exit center stage without extracting the ultimate sacrifice from untold millions - hopefully extinction of the species will be avoided - but their is not much reason for optimism, In My Humble Opinion.

Cheers!

P.S.: I be a Yank, when referring to Americans as "they" I be referring to the Idiots Upstairs who be running the bloody show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Phormio,

I would say that kind of puts it in a nut shell very nicely. And that is only one small piece of the pie.

There is a guy on a cable staton here in San Diego who has a regular program. a couple times a week he discusses the plans of the international banking families. Rockefellers, Khuns, De Bers. Morgans, Rothchilds, Morgans etc. and their plans for world domination.

I have been studying this for years. This program is particularly interessting because it is supported by voluminous qoutes from famous US presidents, statesmen, inventors who all illustrate the plans of the federal reserve/government for world domination with great concern and intrepidation.

Now I am not much for conspiracy therory/the sky falling.

However on close observation with corraberated historacle facts osserved over a period of 25 years on my part the senario appears to be unfolding as if from a script.

My question is when it gets "worse" will Thailand be a better or worse place to be?

[Limbo]

Mr. Socal enlightened us:

If you have found happiness, then cherish everyday, and watch who you tell, where you are.

I must admit that I would have messed up. Shit, shit, shit.

It is the theme of this ''The Beach' movie. If you find something nice, you have to keep it for yourself, because other people also want to have it.

Oh, I hate other people, why are they that bad?