Would You Support Another Coup?

[Gary A]

My wife is 40 years old. I mention her age because that means she has participated in many elections. According to her, vote buying was very common at one time but in the past couple of elections it was nearly non existent. She was even a bit disappointed that no one offered her anything. The question is if vote buying had any affect on how people actually voted. I asked her if she ever took money or gifts. The answer was she certainly did. She went on to say that regardless of whether people took the money or not,they voted the way they wanted. The voting booth is still private and no one knows how you voted. She finds it humorous that politicians actually believe that they could buy votes.

[Pierrot]

My wife is 40 years old. I mention her age because that means she has participated in many elections. According to her, vote buying was very common at one time but in the past couple of elections it was nearly non existent. She was even a bit disappointed that no one offered her anything. The question is if vote buying had any affect on how people actually voted. I asked her if she ever took money or gifts. The answer was she certainly did. She went on to say that regardless of whether people took the money or not,they voted the way they wanted. The voting booth is still private and no one knows how you voted. She finds it humorous that politicians actually believe that they could buy votes.

You're absolutely right. And on top of that, all this vote buying stories made a lot of people angry. "What money ?" "How come we didn't get anything?"

But actually it's more a matter of finding the right excuse :

"We don't care about those people, we didn't even bother campaigning there"

or

"we lost because the other side cheated"

[thaigene2]

While I wouldn't personally support a coup in Thailand, I do feel it would do more good than bad for me and my family circles.

I could see a second coup weakening the THB and lowering land values. With a weakened THB and a strengthening USD, I wouldn't be surprised to see the exchange rate back up in the 40:1 range. I won't go much further, but almost inevitably, a worse time for Thais is the right time for foreign investments.

So while I would like to support democracy, I wouldn't ignore a chance to make some money.

I won't comment on the poll as I was the OP. However your comment is intersting since the BOT had to intervene today to stop the THB from 'weakening' - an about turn from recent trends, right?

[Pepe']

I think a coup wold be a good thing, not that it would solve anything.

Rather it would show Thailand and Thai metality for what it really is...

[Heng]

Sure, nothing like stirring things up a bit before things go back to exactly the way they were before.

[nidhogg]

She went on to say that regardless of whether people took the money or not,they voted the way they wanted. The voting booth is still private and no one knows how you voted. She finds it humorous that politicians actually believe that they could buy votes.

I will have to disagree somewhat. This maybe true in larger urban areas, but my understanding is that in the smaller rural areas, there is a significant fear that "they" know how some one has voted, and the local village leaders make sure the line is kept. I know my missus fears reprisals on her family if she voted differently to what she had been told. As such, she would rather not vote. Sad.

For the coup? The main objection is that last time they made such an extremely poor job of it. What, in all honesty was achieved? Who was sucessfully charged for anything? Who paid for the numerous crimes committed under the old government? Who was held accountable for the stunning corruption? The military dithered on everything, achieved nothing and solved nothing. They drifted away, allowing the old guard back in, with sufficient time to block any routes to accountability.

[thaigene2]

I think it's time to wrap this one up then - unless a COUP HAPPENS -then time to revisit - and if so please vote!!!

Of the more than 100 voters (05) the results are:

Despite the PAD attempts to garner attenetion by the military and the public by blockading the main road that runs through the heart of Bangkok's Establishment (the Army HQ, UN, etc)...and despite similar protests wre used by the military to depose a popularly elected govt....

-two-thirds NOW disagree with a coup to sort out Thailand's present poltical situation which is the result of a democratic election following a coup more than a year earlier. That includes nearly 50% who said there is NEVER ANY JUSTIFICATION to remove an elected govt from power by force of arms.

-Only 13% said force of arms is justification to remove an elected government from office

Still, anyone want to bet against that the richy-riches will still win the day??

[h90]

My poll - so here is background to the above question for those not close to this.

When the military moved in to remove the democratically elected TRT Government, it did so following demostrations by a largely middle-class Bangkok group called the PAD, saying it was necessary to do so as there was serious social disunity. However, it promised to hold elections a year later. It kept the promise and the election was held. It was considered free and fair by most though there were reports (as always) about vote buying. The electorate returned to power a party (PPP) that was a self-admitted proxy of the TRT.

and again at the end of the TRT government was at its end far away from being elected. And with more and more informations this government was obviously not democratic elected. Anyway a coup now would not be as smooth as before. Would be most probably a disaster.

[MengWan]

There is a big flaw in this poll (as often !), it is in the expression "democratically-elected government" ...

Is vote-buying "democratic" ?

I don't think so !

For this country to grow (especially by its middle-class), the scheme "I buy my way to power, then get back the costs by plundering the country" has to be broken.

I would compare this to alcoolism, one has to first stop drinking to be free of it ...

Then, maybe, there can be democracy and so a "democratically-elected anybody".

A Constitution that severely punishes electoral fraud is a very good start for a march towards democracy, it is no surprise that some powers want those articles removed ...

[tropo]

I think a coup wold be a good thing, not that it would solve anything.

Rather it would show Thailand and Thai metality for what it really is...

And for selfish reasons another coup would really dent investor confidence and possibly improve my foreign exchange rate...and keep it a cheap 3rd world country.

[cluezo]

So far I am pleased people here support Democracy.

You don't follow Thai polictics, obviously.

[cluezo]

I'm for any action that removes the present government.

[farang prince]

I don't see another coup happening anytime soon. The military leadership realized that they got in over their heads with the last coup. Another coup at this time would tear the country apart and I don't think this one would be a "bloodless coup."

[Travel2003]

I do not think it will be any new coup in the near future.

Even the most stupid politicians and (military) officers know that will not solve any thing.

The military and politicians in this country are alreay about to become the lauging stock among their foreign colleagues.

One more stunt like this (in the near future) and I will believe the financial impact will also be huge.

Only good thing for the visitors is the Thai Baht might drop like a rock in its value.

[dominique355]

I don't see another coup happening anytime soon. The military leadership realized that they got in over their heads with the last coup. Another coup at this time would tear the country apart and I don't think this one would be a "bloodless coup."

But they succeeded in increasing the military budget be 58% and - as far as I know - the present government is not cutting back now. But who knows, if the present government should cut the military budget back to it's original amount, maybe then another coup might happen. Excuses can always been fabricated:

- some leader commit lèse majesté crimes

- Thai society in disunity

- Budget cuts threaten security of the nation

- and last but not least: Now it's our turn to fill our pockets.

I am certainly not in favor of any military coup. What qualifications do the military have to run a country? They are solders used to command and to obey, not to find compromises in a democratic way. As we have seen, the last coup did not change anything. Thailand's worst problem, corruption, is still there, even more than before. What's the cost of a Judge? 2 million THB and nobody will arrest you for bribing him.

Do you remember the laws enacted by the last military government? Well, among others the Internal Security Act and the Computer and Internet Crime Act. Very convenient for muting any political opponents.

I am not a friend of Samak and his cohorts, but even less of any self appointed Saviour of the Nation.

Enough ranting for the moment.

[geriatrickid]

I voted no, overthrow cannot be justified if force of arms is used. I know that is true in Christianity, and suspect that Buddhism theoretically frowns upon killing people. The amazing thing is that the last coup, for all its faults, was non-violent. Most modern revolutions have been almost totally non-violent.

I think the PAD is laying the groundwork for another coup, even if they do not think so.

Agree with you on this except the revolution comment.

Surely you were around for some of the modern revolutions which were extremely violent and deadly;

Russia 1905 & 1917, Cuba 1956-1959, China 1931-1949, Vietnam (It started as a communist revolution),Hungary 1956, Mexico 1911, Algeria 1954-1962, Biafra 1967-1970, Eritrea (1961-1991), Sandanistas in Nicaragua 1978-79, Guatemala 1978, El Salvador 1980.

In the last decade look at Liberia, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda etc. Sure they involved genocides and civil war but they started out as conventional revolutions. One could argue that several regime changes in South America involved revolutions.

I'm rather disappointed that so many people would support a coup in Thailand. Obviously they are not believers in the concept of democracyy. No wonder they are unhappy in Thailand. perhaps arrangements can be made to help them get to Zimbabwe or North Korea where they would be more comfortable with governments that do not believe in the concept of elections.

[OlRedEyes]

Though I wouldn't call Thailand a democracy for a vast number of reasons, I have not seen any Thai government act in a way that justifies a coup. Not even bad boy Thaksin.

Zimbabwe, yes. Thailand can be sorted out by peaceful means by it's citizens, if they had the motivation and the guts.

[Crushdepth]

The sad thing about the coup was that the army government proved to be utterly useless. They had a chance to push through some reform of the system but achieved nearly nothing. Two years later, things are literally back to square one. Thaksin's back, unprosecuted, about to have his assets unfrozen, his party is re-elected under a different name and they're close to reversing the so-called 'constitutional reform'. It's truly pathetic.

I don't agree with a second coup because nothing is going until people in Thailand learn to value democracy AND good governance. That's a lesson Thailand is going to learn the hard way and I'm sure it will require plenty of blood on the floor for people to wake up and take an interest.

[sriracha john]

Most modern revolutions have been almost totally non-violent.

Surely you were around for....

Russia 1905 & 1917..

Mexico 1911..

Daaaaang, I didn't know PB was that old.

[h90]

I don't see another coup happening anytime soon. The military leadership realized that they got in over their heads with the last coup. Another coup at this time would tear the country apart and I don't think this one would be a "bloodless coup."

But they succeeded in increasing the military budget be 58% and - as far as I know - the present government is not cutting back now. But who knows, if the present government should cut the military budget back to it's original amount, maybe then another coup might happen. Excuses can always been fabricated:

- some leader commit lèse majesté crimes

- Thai society in disunity

- Budget cuts threaten security of the nation

- and last but not least: Now it's our turn to fill our pockets.

I am certainly not in favor of any military coup. What qualifications do the military have to run a country? They are solders used to command and to obey, not to find compromises in a democratic way. As we have seen, the last coup did not change anything. Thailand's worst problem, corruption, is still there, even more than before. What's the cost of a Judge? 2 million THB and nobody will arrest you for bribing him.

Do you remember the laws enacted by the last military government? Well, among others the Internal Security Act and the Computer and Internet Crime Act. Very convenient for muting any political opponents.

I am not a friend of Samak and his cohorts, but even less of any self appointed Saviour of the Nation.

Enough ranting for the moment.

Well Thaksin cut back the military budget and they just put it back to what it was before.

What qualification? Well they had good reason for the last coup, they made it perfect and without blood and than they were just too stupid to make anything.

If you have 1 year dictatorship you can do a lot things which benefit the country but are difficult to do for democratic government, but what did they do?? Nothing.

[thaigene2]

Surely you were around for some of the modern revolutions which were extremely violent and deadly;

Russia 1905 & 1917, Cuba 1956-1959, China 1931-1949, Vietnam (It started as a communist revolution),Hungary 1956, Mexico 1911, Algeria 1954-1962, Biafra 1967-1970, Eritrea (1961-1991), Sandanistas in Nicaragua 1978-79, Guatemala 1978, El Salvador 1980.

You forgot some of the bloodiest and nastiest of all. Overthrow of Chile's Allende by Pinochet (that 'nice old man'..backed by Uncle Sam wasn't he?), Argentina, the Contras in central America backed by Uncle Sam were worse than the Sandanistas, and let's not forget the grand-daddy of them all - the Spanish Civil War against right-wing fascists which the free democracy-loving people of Spain bravely fought but lost.

History teaches us a lot you're right - never forget that it is the rich who use the poor to fight their wars in order to protect and/or furtehr their own interests...that's the golden rule.

[seagull]

I am not into all these political manoveures. Who is right and wrong, who is "vote buying" and who is corrupted. But the current administration are elected democratically, (thai style), hence any removal of these government should be in the same manner, at the ballot boxes.

My TGF, who is an isaan lady of 43, has never heard of anyone that she knows that has been paid to vote for a certain party.

So what is "vote buying" ? A small token of bht 100 is sufficient to buy a voter's heart ? Or is it just a small way of re-imbursing the cost that would be incurred by the voter, by way of transportation etc. Perhaps it is only to encourage voters to vote. Cause without their vote, it would not be "democratic".

So now the people have voted. And the PPP with it's co-allition parties are in power. Can they lead and run the country, well we know that don't we. Military coup to overthrow an elected government ? When is it going to end? It must be with election at the ballot boxes. Vote buying or not, it is up to Thais whether they wishes to be bought or not. It is their country and it is their life. I am sure they knows what's best for their well-being and their children.

Seeing Samak & co in action, well, I hate to say this, bring on Thaksin. At least he can lead and run the country.

[h90]

I am not into all these political manoveures. Who is right and wrong, who is "vote buying" and who is corrupted. But the current administration are elected democratically, (thai style), hence any removal of these government should be in the same manner, at the ballot boxes.

My TGF, who is an isaan lady of 43, has never heard of anyone that she knows that has been paid to vote for a certain party.

So what is "vote buying" ? A small token of bht 100 is sufficient to buy a voter's heart ? Or is it just a small way of re-imbursing the cost that would be incurred by the voter, by way of transportation etc. Perhaps it is only to encourage voters to vote. Cause without their vote, it would not be "democratic".

So now the people have voted. And the PPP with it's co-allition parties are in power. Can they lead and run the country, well we know that don't we. Military coup to overthrow an elected government ? When is it going to end? It must be with election at the ballot boxes. Vote buying or not, it is up to Thais whether they wishes to be bought or not. It is their country and it is their life. I am sure they knows what's best for their well-being and their children.

Seeing Samak & co in action, well, I hate to say this, bring on Thaksin. At least he can lead and run the country.

If you consider fraud as democratically (thai style), than you can consider military coups also as democratically (thai style).

Without the fraud, and buying the EC at least PPP would have a few seats less and that would make Abisit the premier.

vote buying is fraud and can't be accepted. My Thai wife would be very insulated if you tell fraud is "Thai style".

But as well a military coup won't help

[rixalex]

Seeing Samak & co in action, well, I hate to say this, bring on Thaksin. At least he can lead and run the country.

Supposing that Thaksin had led and ran the country well (a big supposition in my opinion when you consider the turmoil he brought about), would you seriously be willing to forgive and forget all the wrong-doings of his administration that quickly and easily? Don't you believe in justice?

[plachon]

I am not into all these political manoveures. Who is right and wrong, who is "vote buying" and who is corrupted. But the current administration are elected democratically, (thai style), hence any removal of these government should be in the same manner, at the ballot boxes.

My TGF, who is an isaan lady of 43, has never heard of anyone that she knows that has been paid to vote for a certain party.

She's either never lived in Isaan, is deaf and blind or she is pulling the wool over your eyes. Most likely the latter. Vote buying is endemic in every village in Isaan and has been for decades, progressively getting worse over the years. To deny it is like denying the sun is hot. She must really love her FBF like yourself, who laps it all up.

So what is "vote buying" ? A small token of bht 100 is sufficient to buy a voter's heart ? No, these days it is more likely to be 500 or a 1000, depending on the area. Or is it just a small way of re-imbursing the cost that would be incurred by the voter, by way of transportation etc. No, it is a way of buying a voter's loyalty. Perhaps it is only to encourage voters to vote. Yes, to a certain extent it draws the punters out around polling day for their reward. Cause without their vote, it would not be "democratic". You got this bit right, as perfected by the likes of Toxin who thought the only indicator of a "democracy" was the number of votes bought or otherwise he could garner, no matter what despotic and dictatorial shenanigans he presided over later.

So now the people have voted. And the PPP with it's co-allition parties are in power. Can they lead and run the country, well we know that don't we. Military coup to overthrow an elected government ? When is it going to end? It must be with election at the ballot boxes. Vote buying or not, it is up to Thais whether they wishes to be bought or not. It is their country and it is their life. I am sure they knows what's best for their well-being and their children.

Seeing Samak & co in action, well, I hate to say this, bring on Thaksin. At least he can lead and run the country.

[distortedlink]

The average Joe & Jane Public, only wish to get on with their lives and not be involved in the disputes of politicians who are only concerned with feathering their own nests.

Unfortunately we end up being piggy`s in the middle of power struggles between the hierarchy.

My grandfather used to tell me how he later resented being used as cannon fodder during the First World War that was as battle between the aristocracies of Europe.

I can remember in the last coup, armed troops in the streets looking at every one with suspicion as we drove passed. Most people just looking the other way trying to avoid any problems. It's a feeling of intimidation.

Hopefully these crap politicians will just fade away and not impose their power on the general population.

Edited June 15, 2008 by distortedlink

[Gary A]

Quote;

She's either never lived in Isaan, is deaf and blind or she is pulling the wool over your eyes. Most likely the latter. Vote buying is endemic in every village in Isaan and has been for decades, progressively getting worse over the years. To deny it is like denying the sun is hot. She must really love her FBF like yourself, who laps it all up.

So what is "vote buying" ? A small token of bht 100 is sufficient to buy a voter's heart ? No, these days it is more likely to be 500 or a 1000, depending on the area. Or is it just a small way of re-imbursing the cost that would be incurred by the voter, by way of transportation etc. No, it is a way of buying a voter's loyalty. Perhaps it is only to encourage voters to vote. Yes, to a certain extent it draws the punters out around polling day for their reward. Cause without their vote, it would not be "democratic". You got this bit right, as perfected by the likes of Toxin who thought the only indicator of a "democracy" was the number of votes bought or otherwise he could garner, no matter what despotic and dictatorial shenanigans he presided over later.

Quote ----------------------------------------------

My wife will be sorely disappointed by the difference between Khon Kaen and Loei. She was offered nothing for her vote in Loei the last two major elections. I have posted prevously that regardless whether she gets paid or not, she votes how she wants.

Vote buying allegations are just an excuse. Sour grapes for those who didn't get their way. My wife seldom speaks about politics but she was quite upset that stupid Issan people voted the PPP in. Those stupid people are her neighbors. She has gotten over it now and says that maybe after people see how useless Samak is they will vote differently the next time.

[Crushdepth]

Supposing that Thaksin had led and ran the country well (a big supposition in my opinion when you consider the turmoil he brought about), would you seriously be willing to forgive and forget all the wrong-doings of his administration that quickly and easily? Don't you believe in justice?

I believe in justice but I just can't seem to find any here. What justice has Thaksin faced? Some harsh language, an extended holiday and a temporary soon to be reversed seizure of some assets that had no material impact on his quality of life at all!

Anyway, anything is better than Samak. My goldfish could run this country more effectively. I'd rather have a smart evil bastard running the country than a stupid evil bastard.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Crushdepth

[rixalex]

I'd rather have a smart evil bastard running the country than a stupid evil bastard.

Call me a dreamer but i'd say no thank you to both.

[Ulysses G.]

Seeing Samak & co in action, well, I hate to say this, bring on Thaksin. At least he can lead and run the country.

Supposing that Thaksin had led and ran the country well (a big supposition in my opinion when you consider the turmoil he brought about), would you seriously be willing to forgive and forget all the wrong-doings of his administration that quickly and easily? Don't you believe in justice?

It is a Thai tradition to forgive these bigwigs after they have left office. Why should Thaksin be the only one who is hounded forever?