What Did I Get Myself Into

[j0hnga1t]

I was in Thailand a few weeks ago and agreed to buy my girlfriend 1/2 of rai of land near her temple in Nakhon Ratchasima.  Anyway a lady at the her temple was selling half her rai and she is good friends with my gf.  Since I wasn't a large sum of money for me (1,800USD), I decided to by it.  Now comes the fun stuff.  After buying the land, I find out that the land is not Chanote or Nor Sor Sam...I take a little risk...that's fine.  After paying off the woman, I then find out that the title is in her brother's name; however, the brother has "signed over" the property to her and once she (the seller) get's the transfer approved by the local authorities, she is suppose to transfer 1/2 rai to my gf.  Oh yeah a farang friend in Phuket told me that the title on the property is the type where the govt can come in and take the property if they discover that it is illegally obtained/converted farmland.....

This morning, my gf tells me that the seller said that after she gets title, she'll have to ask permission of the govt to subdivide (i.e. it's not guaranteed).  AND if they don't allow it to be subdivided, we have to put a house on it and then petition the gov't to split the land because we need a separate address......I start to get upset.  I explained to my gf that I'm pissed coz I expected it to be a painless transaction and after the money is gone (the lady build a little house for herself), all these issues arise.  I asked her why the her friend didn't give us full disclosure up front AND I told her that if I knew it would have been like this, I wouldn't have bought the land and waited until everything was straightened out.  I don't know what will happen with the land now....

ANY ADVICE????? Yeah yeah, I should not have done the "impulse" buy.  I didn't think much of it since I've dropped more that $1,800 on impulse buys before (like watches)

[ThaiLawOnline]

Looks like I was right in:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=194856

First, verify exactly what kind of "title deed" you have.

If you build on it, it won't be "legal" but many people do it. These titles are normally for farming... But we don't know what you have...

Second, verify who is really the "possessor" and make a clear contract with his/her. Better in writting. The possessor is normally the one that pays taxes. There will be some documents that prove it.

Third, if you want to avoid problems, pay annual taxes (very low) that will show "the possession" of your girlfriend.

Fourth, rarely but you should verify with the law department, you might be able to upgrade it to Nor Sor Sam or Chanotte. If it is not the case, you have to wait until the government changed it into a proper title deed...

or start thinking about cultivating rice! Rice is going up these days!

Many people are doing what you did. You are lucky that it's only 1800$ US. I've seem people building a house of 6 million baht on one of these title deed, with a 30 years lease agreement made by a law firm... but that agreement is completely useless as it can't be registered on these title deeds.

Can you try to negotiate and cancel the sale with some money given to the owner for damages?

Depending on the area of Korat, it doesn't sound so expensive. Korat is much expensive than other cities in Isaan.

A friend bought 120 Talang Wah, about 10 km from the city, 500,000 baht last week. But it was Nor Sor Sam, near a road, with water and electricity but no construction.

[Dakhar]

Looks like I was right in:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=194856

First, verify exactly what kind of "title deed" you have.

If you build on it, it won't be "legal" but many people do it. These titles are normally for farming... But we don't know what you have...

Second, verify who is really the "possessor" and make a clear contract with his/her. Better in writting. The possessor is normally the one that pays taxes. There will be some documents that prove it.

Third, if you want to avoid problems, pay annual taxes (very low) that will show "the possession" of your girlfriend.

Fourth, rarely but you should verify with the law department, you might be able to upgrade it to Nor Sor Sam or Chanotte. If it is not the case, you have to wait until the government changed it into a proper title deed...

or start thinking about cultivating rice! Rice is going up these days!

Many people are doing what you did. You are lucky that it's only 1800$ US. I've seem people building a house of 6 million baht on one of these title deed, with a 30 years lease agreement made by a law firm... but that agreement is completely useless as it can't be registered on these title deeds.

Can you try to negotiate and cancel the sale with some money given to the owner for damages?

Depending on the area of Korat, it doesn't sound so expensive. Korat is much expensive than other cities in Isaan.

A friend bought 120 Talang Wah, about 10 km from the city, 500,000 baht last week. But it was Nor Sor Sam, near a road, with water and electricity but no construction.

Consider the 1800 as an educational expense

good luck to you

[sweetchariot]

Sounds like a scam between g/f and her friend. 60,000 baht is very expensive for 1/2 rai in Nakon Ratchisima. I would be quizzing the g/f a little bit harder, before I dumped her.

[glyph]

"Looks like I was right in <web tag removed>"

I remember you posted earlier that it was illegal for a Thai company to own land. I guess that makes it 50/50.

[LivinLOS]

I explained to my gf that I'm pissed coz I expected it to be a painless transaction and after the money is gone (the lady build a little house for herself), all these issues arise.  

You expected a painless transaction ?? On a Thai land deal..

First find out the land title... We were offered 10 rai of sor por kor for 100k and in the end turned it down simply as it wasnt the price but the title is too much hassle.

[j0hnga1t]

Isaanlawyers, I'll find out what type of title it is.  No backing out now.  She spent the money I gave her.....Shame on me for trusting a "spiritual advisor" at a buddhist temple.

I tell ya, you can't trust anyone.  I did give it some thought before agreeing to buy the land.  It was for more for my gf than for me because I'm more a big city boy.  I hoped it wouldn't be, but it maybe an educational expense....I saw a posting once that said don't invest in Thailand anything you wouldn't be willing to lose.  I don't want to think badly about my gf.  I think she is just uneducated in these matters (as am I) and she is too trusting.  

The property is nice, It's next to a road and near an interstate.  Has access to power and water with no construction.  A Big C is moving in the area.  It's not over yet......

[think_too_mut]

Sounds like a scam between g/f and her friend. 60,000 baht is very expensive for 1/2 rai in Nakon Ratchisima. I would be quizzing the g/f a little bit harder, before I dumped her.

I would be surprised if any of the girls knew the internals of land ownership mechanism. That part (the land itself) would not be the scam, IMO.

The theorethical possibility of government repossesing the land hardly if ever happens, lots of land among villagers change hands without proper paperwork following.

What might be the scam - the price paid. And if they are now getting the OP into building a house on the land to force subdivision and new address.

As the OP said, once the mistake is made, 1800$ should not kill a man. If it remains at that figure.

[lioness]

The land quite probably hasn't got a title it could be a right of use, which if you listen to everyone here will make you think you have lost your money.

For personal reasons and from personal experience I don't view it that way at all and depending on the setup between the sister and the brother just work your way through it, Most foreigners of course prefer the chanort or nor sor sarm

they want this for security, but there is a lot more to it than that in certain areas of Thailand the % of none title land can be as much as 80% but that doesn't stop folks buying and building or farming depending on the usage of the land.

Have you paid too much? well anything is only worth what you are prepared to pay for it, you were ok to pay what you did so don't bother listening to those that like to tell you you have paid too much or that you have lost your money, not necessarily so.

[think_too_mut]

The land quite probably hasn't got a title it could be a right of use, which if you listen to everyone here will make you think you have lost your money.

For personal reasons and from personal experience I don't view it that way at all and depending on the setup between the sister and the brother just work your way through it, Most foreigners of course prefer the chanort or nor sor sarm

they want this for security, but there is a lot more to it than that in certain areas of Thailand the % of none title land can be as much as 80% but that doesn't stop folks buying and building or farming depending on the usage of the land.

Have you paid too much? well anything is only worth what you are prepared to pay for it, you were ok to pay what you did so don't bother listening to those that like to tell you you have paid too much or that you have lost your money, not necessarily so.

If the land stays the way it is, that's fine. That way I would believe the locals have made some kind of (very usual and common) agreement.

For my wife, I bought 2 pieces of land, it was about 60K baht but it's farming land and (I think double the size OP paid) and she had to go to local office on 2 occassions to get the land tranferred in her name. Now, her father works one half, second (5km distant) half is rented to someone who has no idea who the owner on paper is.

What is new here is - that OP must put a house on the land if he wants it subdivided and put into his gf's name.

If he is not (and I believe should not be) worried that his gf can do with the land what she please, why not leave it as it is?

Where the house came from? Was it on the cards from day 1? Or poped up just now?

Next, why pay for shipping the materials while building the house, would not a pickup truck be handy? That is where I smell a rat.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Sorry Glyph, you are right. I didn't express myself correctly at that time and meant about using nominees. That's what some foreigners do and I don't really care. I am referring to the land code and the anti-nominee Act. We setup companies and I know how it works. Even FOREIGNERS can own land (there are exceptions, we all know). So, why not a Thai company?? But again, that's out of topic.

So, I really just didn't write what I intended to say. I express myself much better in my mother tongue, which is not English.

And I totally accept the blame.

[bratpack]

jUST RESELL IT TO A THAI AND LOSE LESS MONEY.

1800 DOLLARS IS A MERE TIP IN A GOOD RESTARAUNT.

[dave111223]

jUST RESELL IT TO A THAI AND LOSE LESS MONEY.

1800 DOLLARS IS A MERE TIP IN A GOOD RESTARAUNT.

I dunno where you're eating (~350,000 baht for a meal would seem a tad expensive).

Edited June 22, 2008 by dave111223

[GuestHouse]

I remember going on holiday to France and finding a new girlfriend there.... never fealt the need to buy her a piece of land, nor funnily enough did she suggest I should.

[otherstuff1957]

$1800 is about 60,000 baht. I didn't think you could buy 1/2 a rai of land ANYWHERE in Thailand for that little money, dodgy title or not!

[samran]

I remember going on holiday to France and finding a new girlfriend there.... never fealt the need to buy her a piece of land, nor funnily enough did she suggest I should.

So she didn't try the "my mama et papa have a malade fromage et need a new chalet in the trois valley ski resort" trick on you then? Funny, most guys fall for that one all the time.

GH. You are indeed a man of steel.

Ahh french women.....

[j0hnga1t]

This IS quite a learning experience for me.  I do trust the girl.  She was a contract worker in Saipan when I met her in 2005.  She gave cooking lessons to me and another couple I know.  She did ayurvedic massage at a reputable spa (happy endings were not an option).  We maintained our friendship since then and I've been dating her for almost a year.  I've also never left an $1,800 tip at a restaurant before (at least not while sober  ), but I am dropping $4,000 on my Mercedes for cosmetic body work.....

If things get weird later, luckily I have a friend in the area who is a Thai lawyer (now mom) and I'll have her contact the seller if things continue to go sideways to get a straight story.  I think this is an issue of a person not trying to scam me (other than the 50 talang wah mentioned in a previous post), but someone who is ignorant of the law (but in my line of work here in the US, ignorance of the law is no excuse!)

I appreciate all comments and the support

[RakJungTorlae]

for the OP.

hahahaha

Edited June 22, 2008 by RakJungTorlae

[j0hnga1t]

isaanlawyer, I spoke with my gf and she said the type of deed is tor bor 5? She said it was previously "army land" I have a feeling I'll have to grow rice on the land in lieu of a house

[Cuban]

$1800 is about 60,000 baht. I didn't think you could buy 1/2 a rai of land ANYWHERE in Thailand for that little money, dodgy title or not!

I am look at a section of land that works out at 15,000 Baht a Rai. And it's not in the wilds miles from anywhere, but it is farming land.

The OPs 120,000 Baht a Rai plot does not sound excessive - but might have been cheaper if the full story about land title was established before the money changed hands, however is there direct road access and electric & water on site? As posted elsewhere on this forum the prices for land fill are going up with fuel costs, just as well it's only 1/2 a Rai to fill.

[j0hnga1t]

Cuban, it is near a main road/interstate (less than one kilometer). I exit the property and I'm on the road that goes to the main road and it's a straight shot. I don't have to go on few roads that get to the road that gets to the main road . It does have electricity and water but no sewage...10 min scooter ride to the main town there...

[Cuban]

Not cheap - but (IMHO) not rip-off expensive.

However I would expect that the land title would be straight (Chanote) for that money. Lesson learnt move forward but get the paperwork right from now on.

Sewage will be via your own tank/soak away.

I hope the land title comes good for you, remember that you can get the house built in your own name and you should consider (strongly) getting your partner to set up an usufruct to allow you access to the land. Otherwise you might find yourself having to move your house once it is built. See thread elsewhere about man knocking down is own house. As this is now a 'family'? asset consider the legal situation for the land and any house once built in the event of your partners' or your own death or serious disablement.

The text below is from this web site.

Usufruct This is a right granted by an owner of land in favour of a usufructuary whereby the usufructuary has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of the property. Specifically, a usufructuary normally has the right to exploit forests, mines and quarries. The rules concerning usufructs are similar to those concerning leases.

HTH

[j0hnga1t]

Well, it appears that the deal is working out.  My gf told me that the seller told her that she spoke with the gov't people who handle the title transfer from her brother to her and they said she can deed part of the property to my gf .  Of course I have to have deed in hand first, but it seems to be moving in the right direction...

[stevehaigh]

Well, it appears that the deal is working out. My gf told me that the seller told her that she spoke with the gov't people who handle the title transfer from her brother to her and they said she can deed part of the property to my gf . Of course I have to have deed in hand first, but it seems to be moving in the right direction...

get friendly with the land office (i.e. pay someone off) to rush through an upgrade to Nor Sor 3 Gor and then you will have a good little investment. until you have a real title, i wouldn't spend money on building a house which will cost at least 10x what you have already spent.

[rubik101]

Having just paid 100.000 baht for a piece of building land in CM, area 100 wah or 1/4 rai, I think you did quite well! Better to get your girlfriend to get friendly with the local land office staff. Better that they aren't told a farang is involved.

Once you have that piece of parchment with the big red bird across the top, build away!

Good luck.

Edited July 10, 2008 by rubik101