Foreigners Performing Volunteer Charity Work In Thailand

[m02]

... I have never discussed with a sentient Thai who knew the process, and who was willing to move their carcass through the process. I would love for them to do it their way, the legal Thai way, but they - Thais, including a high ranking local Labour Ministry officer - did not even know how to do it.

You and I do not need to tell each other how to do it. Go tell the Thais who want our help, to learn how to do it, and simply make the effort to do it, or rely on their own people to do charity work. The mockery is that they say come to Thailand and do what we say and break our laws.

But this is not about me. It is a pervasive avoidance and violation of Thai laws by Thais who care so little about the volunteer farang that they are willing to let us twist in the wind just so that we can help Thais. I do not think you understand - are you Thai?

As I wrote above I am still not sure what your goal here is. If its just a statement and discussion about a problem then you have made a good point which it would behoove all farangs who are interested in charity work to be aware of.

Although you say "But this is not about me.", if in fact you would like to have a volunteer English teaching position complete with a WP and all the attendant legal bells and whistles then I could check with friends who have contacts with a very large and long time established organization here in Chiang Mai. I actually did volunteer work there for two years complete with a WP, the process of obtaining which included an interview at the provincial health office re: my qualifications. Besides the medical side of things they are also associated with a regular Thai school at which they have in the past posted volunteer English teachers at times. Let me know.

I won't go into the problems specific to Thai NGOs or I'll end up e-publishing another on-line magnum opus like the above... However, the reasons for what you have encountered are not unknown or very mysterious in nature; more like mundane and human. Long term resolution of course centers on education, but for the short-term you are probably looking at establishing a service association to which volunteers can turn to get the necessary paper work processed and fees paid, in lieu of the agency they would be working for doing it, which as you say are clueless in the extreme about such things. If there is a very big demand the natural development would probably occur within existing agencies, such as Sunbelt. It just needs someone(s) to jump start it and get the procedures worked out in the varying provinces. There has been quite a bit of interest demonstrated about this subject on this thread alone - maybe you could use it to start a working group to attack this problem and find some resolution...

[Old Man River]

Old Man River, I beleive you don't understand the concept of a workpermit. A workpermit allows you to work, at a specified company in a specified job. For every job you have, you need a separate WP. Even if you were to have 2 different jobs at the same company. My own WP allows me only to do volunteer work at my school. If I do volunteer work at another school without a WP for that school I break the law.

Yes, you can do charitable work and many do. But it is illigal to do so without a WP for that specific job. Meaning you can be arrested, convisted to a jail term, fined and deported.

Yes, you must be correct. Having had a work permit for more than 20 years, I must not know what it is. Am I spelling work permit correctly or can you help me with this as well?

My point is simple and I am surprised that so many are having difficulty in grasping this. Perhaps in your second paragraph you really are grasping this, so if you are, sorry for this rant. You need a work permit in Thailand to do work in Thailand, but you can still do charitable work in Thailand without having a work permit that says you are doing charitable work in Thailand. You can do this through various organizations, Lions, Rotary, Chambers etc. Are we agreeing or is there still a disconnect?

[Mario2008]

If you mean donating money, sure that is charitable too and a great way of suporting various noble causes. Indeed there are many groups of foreigners doing fundraising for noble causes and doing something to the benefit of Thailand in that way. But it isn't work, like volunteering to teach or helping at an orphanage. (And technicaly, fundraising could be considered work too if you ask money from others).

But I do recognize your point that donating money is also a good way to help.

[jts-khorat]

You need a work permit in Thailand to do work in Thailand, but you can still do charitable work in Thailand without having a work permit that says you are doing charitable work in Thailand. You can do this through various organizations, Lions, Rotary, Chambers etc. Are we agreeing or is there still a disconnect?

Attending a Lions Club Meeting and making a speech there would, at least to my understanding, be work for which you would need a work permit from the Lions Club (as a consultant?). This is surely a grey area and I rather would be wrong, so maybe Old Man River or somebody else being a member there can give us the exact definition where work starts and where it is still for 'personal use only'. I would believe if we had a sure legal definition than this would help this discussion immeasurably.

I personally was extremely surprised having the chief of the Labor Office here in Phuket quoted as saying that helping your own wife bake cookies in your own house that she might later sell is work for which you need a work permit, mowing your neighbors lawn (even if for free) as well -- and he was quite clear that you will be deported if caught, if I remember correctly. It is however not 'work' if you mow your own lawn.

This is a clear definition and guideline, I am sure there must be an equally clear one for charitable work in an organization like the Lions Club or Rotaries; this should not be difficult to find out, as lawyers and other people being better versed in legal questions tend to be members there.

[Old Man River]

If you mean donating money, sure that is charitable too and a great way of suporting various noble causes. Indeed there are many groups of foreigners doing fundraising for noble causes and doing something to the benefit of Thailand in that way. But it isn't work, like volunteering to teach or helping at an orphanage. (And technicaly, fundraising could be considered work too if you ask money from others).

But I do recognize your point that donating money is also a good way to help.

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

[PeaceBlondie]

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

Old Man River, this is not about employment (volunteer work), and the period of time has nothing to do with the Thai Labour Law - as we vaguely understand it. You are not on the same page. One work permit entitles you only to that specific work. Any work is work. It appears you have been violating the law for a long time and placing yourself and your family in jeopardy. But maybe not; how should I know what most Thais do not know?

mO2, can you please scan for us here, a current copy of a valid work permit for a farang who works in that volunteer teaching program in Chiang Mai? I will believe it after I see it, but it would prove your point, thank you.

[thaigene2]

Peace Blondie

Sorry I didn't read all four pages. But can I still volunteer (and where) anyway if I am already employed without any visa hassles?

[PeaceBlondie]

Peace Blondie

Sorry I didn't read all four pages. But can I still volunteer (and where) anyway if I am already employed without any visa hassles?

Hi gene,

I do not know. I think not. But I am no expert in Thai law. Heck, I cannot speak the language or eat the food, so how would I know? I worked here illegally for the government and for charity, but who knows? I have always understood you need a separate Labour Ministry-issued permit for each work, and each location. Others are saying surely, that one work permit for one place automatically entitles you to unlimited work at all charities in Thailand because...because they think so...or the charity told them so...or it just seems right to do good things even at the risk of deportation. In a previous country, we were scared shitless of being deported for doing charity work, but TIT, so....I do not know.

[Mobi]

If you mean donating money, sure that is charitable too and a great way of suporting various noble causes. Indeed there are many groups of foreigners doing fundraising for noble causes and doing something to the benefit of Thailand in that way. But it isn't work, like volunteering to teach or helping at an orphanage. (And technicaly, fundraising could be considered work too if you ask money from others).

But I do recognize your point that donating money is also a good way to help.

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

Sorry OMR, but I believe you are wrong.

You can donate money, you can attend rotary meetings. But the minute you involve yourself in a charitable project - be it taking some orphaned kids out for a day at the zoo, or doing some plumbing or maintenance work at a local mission, or simply helping to organise and/or run a charitable fund raising event, then you will need a work permit for such activities, and if you do not have one you could be in trouble.

I am fully aware that many highly respected farangs in our midst do all the above and much more through their rotary and lions associations, and the chances are that nothing will happen to them. But believe you me they are all breaking the law, and you never know what might happen in this increasingly anti-farang country.

If and when the country declines into economic and political chaos, more and more of their troubles will be blamed on those rich, evil foreigners, and if that happens, don't think that for one moment that your precious rotary associations will be immune.

[Old Man River]

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

Old Man River, this is not about employment (volunteer work), and the period of time has nothing to do with the Thai Labour Law - as we vaguely understand it. You are not on the same page. One work permit entitles you only to that specific work. Any work is work. It appears you have been violating the law for a long time and placing yourself and your family in jeopardy. But maybe not; how should I know what most Thais do not know?

Illegal? Are you an attorney? Some of the people who do charitable work in Thailand are. I guess they don't know the law either.

BTW, check out the various websites (chambers etc.) and see how many ex-pats are breaking the law. Maybe, just maybe, these international organizations know something you don't. Then again, you may be right and everyone else is wrong.

[sriracha john]

I have it on good authority that it wouldn't be the first time that a lawyer did something illegal.

[Huey]

I don't know man. I never had any problems going to the orphanage's out side of BKK or the old folks home founded by one of the princesses and giving money and spending time with the folks there. I guess folks can use the excuse about the legality of helping if they want too but I know the thought never crossed my mind.

[Old Man River]

If you mean donating money, sure that is charitable too and a great way of suporting various noble causes. Indeed there are many groups of foreigners doing fundraising for noble causes and doing something to the benefit of Thailand in that way. But it isn't work, like volunteering to teach or helping at an orphanage. (And technicaly, fundraising could be considered work too if you ask money from others).

But I do recognize your point that donating money is also a good way to help.

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

Sorry OMR, but I believe you are wrong.

You can donate money, you can attend rotary meetings. But the minute you involve yourself in a charitable project - be it taking some orphaned kids out for a day at the zoo, or doing some plumbing or maintenance work at a local mission, or simply helping to organise and/or run a charitable fund raising event, then you will need a work permit for such activities, and if you do not have one you could be in trouble.

I am fully aware that many highly respected farangs in our midst do all the above and much more through their rotary and lions associations, and the chances are that nothing will happen to them. But believe you me they are all breaking the law, and you never know what might happen in this increasingly anti-farang country.

If and when the country declines into economic and political chaos, more and more of their troubles will be blamed on those rich, evil foreigners, and if that happens, don't think that for one moment that your precious rotary associations will be immune.

Your comments are interesting given I know you don't have an ax to grind. I am not an attorney, but since the organizations I am referring to have been in Thailand for over 50 years, my guess is that they have been grandfathered. More often than not in Thailand when a law gets changed it is not retroactive. For sure, I have never heard of this being a problem and these organizations interface with various departments of the Thai government, military and police.

I hope the health has improved.

[Old Man River]

I don't know man. I never had any problems going to the orphanage's out side of BKK or the old folks home founded by one of the princesses and giving money and spending time with the folks there.

Good on you! Like I said earlier, if someone really wants to do charitable work they can find a way.

[sylviex]

can I still volunteer (and where) anyway if I am already employed without any visa hassles?

When you apply for a work permit, you hand the Labour Dept. a copy of your contract with your employer.

Your work permit allows you to do the job detailed in that contract, only.

[sylviex]

Like I said earlier, if someone really wants to do charitable work they can find a way.

Problem is, without any monitoring, so can a whole assortment of undesirables.

[PeaceBlondie]

We donate both time and money, but it is on a project by project basis as opposed to being "employed" long term which is what I think you are talking about. My point is that if someone wants to do charitable work, they can find a way.

Old Man River, this is not about employment (volunteer work), and the period of time has nothing to do with the Thai Labour Law - as we vaguely understand it. You are not on the same page. One work permit entitles you only to that specific work. Any work is work. It appears you have been violating the law for a long time and placing yourself and your family in jeopardy. But maybe not; how should I know what most Thais do not know?

Illegal? Are you an attorney? Some of the people who do charitable work in Thailand are. I guess they don't know the law either.

BTW, check out the various websites (chambers etc.) and see how many ex-pats are breaking the law. Maybe, just maybe, these international organizations know something you don't. Then again, you may be right and everyone else is wrong.

No, I am not a lawyer. Are you licensed to practice labour law in Thailand? Can you read legalese in Thai? Do you have a signed legal opinion on these matters, from a licensed attorney in Thailand? I couch my phrases usually with terms like "as we vaguely understand it" and "it appears" and "maybe not" and "how should I know?"

Added: for all I know, certain NGO's, foundations, and civic clubs may be exempt. Those organizations would, I assume, have on file a royal decree or a government exemption statement. I would not perform charity work just because a buddy said that his buddy's drinking partner is a nice guy.

[m02]

mO2, can you please scan for us here, a current copy of a valid work permit for a farang who works in that volunteer teaching program in Chiang Mai? I will believe it after I see it, but it would prove your point, thank you.

Okay, Blondie, I don't hang out on the forum so am not that aware of the regular's 'personalities' and mistook your 'disgruntled' complaining for something that it wasn't. I am actually laughing over letting one of my buttons get punched and reacting accordingly, so don't take me the wrong way when I say I'll go to the effort to ascertain whether or not a volunteer position currently exists complete with a WP when you buy me a beer... Lord love a duck Blondie, I wasn't trying to convince you of anything - was just offering a helping hand if you really really desired an opportunity to do what you apparently love doing - besides complaining that is...

Anyway, you are correct from one perspective about the issue you raised; however, if you don't understand the place of legal statutes, laws, in a traditional culture dominated by privilege and prestige, you are never going to understand the other aspects of it, which is pretty much the basis for your frustration with what you preceive as hypocritcal behavior by the Thais.

One of my closest Thai friends is a gal who has been confined to a wheel chair for the last fifteen years or so. From nearly becoming institutionalized she has become very active over the last three years in Bangkok with projects helping people with disabilities. While she is intimately knowledgeable about the needs of disabled people, the world of NGOs was a brand new environment for her. We often spend hours on the phone while she talks about the, to her, unbeliveable attitudes and behaviors she encounters at all levels. She wants to change things too, and she is doing so. But it is a slow, slow frustrating process that will never be completely realized. So, don't feel alone in your frustration.

[sriracha john]

I don't know man. I never had any problems going to the orphanage's out side of BKK or the old folks home founded by one of the princesses and giving money and spending time with the folks there. I guess folks can use the excuse about the legality of helping if they want too but I know the thought never crossed my mind.

It never crossed my mind either the whole time while I was volunteering. I mean, really, who would think that absurdly as to ban people from giving of themselves freely. And that persisted... until... I found out... that, incredible as it sounds... that it was, in fact, illegal... and so I attempted to get legal by following all the regulations, the forms, the various ministries, the fees, all at my own time, effort, and expense... until...I ran into a road block up the chain of command at one of the ministries, who had had a petty disagreement with an underling, who was my Thai "boss" and the entire process stopped... no recourse... and so... faced with continuing to work illegally or stopping... I chose stopping.

Edited July 15, 2008 by sriracha john

[PeaceBlondie]

mO2, thanks for your reply. Now I need to go to my favorite Thai hospital where they always do things right and cheerfully, to get my bandages changed. I think we understand each other better.

Not to argue with you, but you said empathetically, "Long term resolution of course centers on education, but for the short-term you are probably looking at establishing a service association to which volunteers can turn to get the necessary paper work processed and fees paid, in lieu of the agency they would be working for doing it, which as you say are clueless in the extreme about such thing." I ain't looking at establishing no association that in effect has to teach the Thais how to function with farang in this "..traditional culture dominated by privilege and prestige" of which I ain't got any. I am, among other things, a retired bureaucrat who knew how to do my most difficult job, and I did it. I would also need to believe that my volunteer work was beneficial. I have a buddy who took my job teaching English at the orphanage, and do not have the nerve to tell him those kids do not need to learn English.

[MarkBKK]

... Then again, you may be right and everyone else is wrong ...

No, at the moment it's just you.

[PeaceBlondie]

Why are so many posters assuming that those of us who have reasonable doubts about endangering our status here, are just malingerers with no intent of volunteering? And must we volunteer with no ability to question how worthwhile the activity is, or are we just volunteering to earn merit? What if teaching English to orphans is useless, or what if municipal offices should pay to have their staff trained professionally?

[Mobi]

Your comments are interesting given I know you don't have an ax to grind. I am not an attorney, but since the organizations I am referring to have been in Thailand for over 50 years, my guess is that they have been grandfathered. More often than not in Thailand when a law gets changed it is not retroactive. For sure, I have never heard of this being a problem and these organizations interface with various departments of the Thai government, military and police.

I hope the health has improved.

Thank you OMR, and upon reflection I apologise for the injudicious use of some phraseology.

I do feel quite strongly about this because I know for a fact that many well meaning farangs in Pattaya are risking their very existence in LOS in order to help some very deserving cases, who otherwise would not be helped.

As many have said, including the highly knowledgeable SJ, most have no idea that they are (were) breaking the law.

I frankly doubt whether the chambers etc. are exempt or have been grandfathered. It is simply that the "powers that be" have no intention at present of challenging the illegality of their charitable activities, given the number of well connected Thais who are also members / officials of these organisations. You are probably right in your advice that the "safest" way to get involved in charitable work is through these organisations. But as you well know, things can change.

Here in Pattaya we often have visits from the US navy who nearly always send squads to carry out charitable projects at the orphanages and other places in and around Pattaya. This is obvious done with the approval of the Thai government, (or maybe the Thai military?), but I'll bet you that strictly speaking what they are doing is illegal. Maybe one day the police will turn up and arrest them.

My health is slowly improving, thank you

[Old Man River]

... Then again, you may be right and everyone else is wrong ...

No, at the moment it's just you.

Contrary to your thoughts, the "everyone" else I was referring to related to the much larger group in Thailand that continue to do charitable work, not the few who continue to complain about things they could actually do something about. Legal? I don't know. Illegal, I don't know. Fun yes. Rewarding yes, but then that is just me.

[Old Man River]

Your comments are interesting given I know you don't have an ax to grind. I am not an attorney, but since the organizations I am referring to have been in Thailand for over 50 years, my guess is that they have been grandfathered. More often than not in Thailand when a law gets changed it is not retroactive. For sure, I have never heard of this being a problem and these organizations interface with various departments of the Thai government, military and police.

I hope the health has improved.

Thank you OMR, and upon reflection I apologise for the injudicious use of some phraseology.

I do feel quite strongly about this because I know for a fact that many well meaning farangs in Pattaya are risking their very existence in LOS in order to help some very deserving cases, who otherwise would not be helped.

As many have said, including the highly knowledgeable SJ, most have no idea that they are (were) breaking the law.

I frankly doubt whether the chambers etc. are exempt or have been grandfathered. It is simply that the "powers that be" have no intention at present of challenging the illegality of their charitable activities, given the number of well connected Thais who are also members / officials of these organisations. You are probably right in your advice that the "safest" way to get involved in charitable work is through these organisations. But as you well know, things can change.

Here in Pattaya we often have visits from the US navy who nearly always send squads to carry out charitable projects at the orphanages and other places in and around Pattaya. This is obvious done with the approval of the Thai government, (or maybe the Thai military?), but I'll bet you that strictly speaking what they are doing is illegal. Maybe one day the police will turn up and arrest them.

My health is slowly improving, thank you

Mobi, this conspiracy to do good things in Thailand has been going on since before either of us were born (yes that long). I find it hard to imagine that it is illegal. It may be based on a special dispensation or grandfathering of a subsequent law. Even the tax laws concerning these organizations reflect a different treatment and not only are Thai's from all walks of life involved, but also the Royal Family are intimately involved. One club I know of was actually chartered in the Palace and has had several senior members of the Royal Family as its presidents.

[Mobi]

Thailand is run by a huge, unwieldy bureaucracy. Each civil service department is a “law unto itself” and the head of each department wields enormous power.

Every department is jealous of its powers and is fiercely protective of their areas of influence. We have seen this time and time again, where one department of the civil service has taken another department to task when they have ‘interfered in their territory’, whether or not the action has been for the public good. The civil service heads tend to be extremely myopic in the operation of their departments, and for the main part, the question of what is right or moral, or what is better for the good of the nation never enters their thinking. The law is the law, and must be obeyed. (Except, of course when some ‘special consideration’ is given in return for turning a blind eye to transgressions. )

I personally doubt that the reasons that farangs are not allowed to undertake charitable work without permits has anything to do with fears of foreign intelligence infiltration, the unsuitability or fitness of the volunteers, or any of the other far fetched reasons espoused in this thread.

It has everything to do with the basic premise operated by the labour department that a farang should not take a job away from a Thai, and should not be allowed to do any job that a Thai is cable of doing. That is the law and is applied without fear or favour in respect of paid or unpaid work. Why should an organisation be allowed to ‘employ’ a farang to do a job for free when there Thais out there who can do it equally well, and get paid for so doing? It’s as simple as that. The labour department doesn’t give two hoots whether someone may suffer as a result of their laws, or that the farang may be giving some benefit to the country, or even saving lives. It just doesn’t enter their thinking. They simply apply the law. Hence the furore that surrounded the labour dept’s decision to try to stop foreigners who were helping with the tsunami relief. The whole world was focussing on the aftermath of a major disaster, but some local tin pot official decided that the law was being broken. On that particular occasion, they were obliged to back down due to worldwide outrage, but we can see the principal at play.

There was a case a year or so back when some farangs had driven their car around the world, raising large sums for charity. When they reached Bangkok they wanted to auction their car for the benefit of local charities. The customs department would have none of it – they insisted that a massive amount of duty be paid on the car, if it was to remain here, even though it would never be used on the roads. The people involved, ended up having the vehicle destroyed rather than pay the duty. There have been other equally “heartless” decisions by customs which have resulted in charities having to destroy imported goods destined for orphans and children’s homes, rather than pay the outrageous customs duties.

But from a Thai point of view, they were simply applying the law.

[MarkBKK]

... Then again, you may be right and everyone else is wrong ...

No, at the moment it's just you.

Contrary to your thoughts, the "everyone" else I was referring to related to the much larger group in Thailand that continue to do charitable work, not the few who continue to complain about things they could actually do something about. Legal? I don't know. Illegal, I don't know. Fun yes. Rewarding yes, but then that is just me.

Are you willfully missing the point, or do you have trouble reading? As PB and others have pointed out, doing voluntary/charitable work can be: Rewarding, helpful, fun, exciting, etc., etc., etc.

It is, however, illegal without a WP (or a piece of paper from the Min of Lab).

That doesn't stop it from being rewarding, helpful, fun, exciting, etc., etc., etc., it just makes it illegal. You're (very) unlikely to get caught/into trouble/deported/put into prison, but for some it's not worth the (tiny) risk. That doesn't make them bad people, nor does it stop you from doing something that you find rewarding and fun. But it doesn't make it legal either.

I find it hard to imagine that it is illegal.

Good reasoning. I don't believe prostitution or gambling are illegal either, because loads of people do them ...

[Galong]

Generally, Thais are very respectable, kind-hearted, competent to take care of Thailand in the way they think is best for Thailand.

Maybe it's time for the US and other First World countries to stop its foreign aid to Thailand since they're so capable of doing everything themselves.

I'm sure that they still want free hand-outs and I'm also sure that there are still plenty of organizations both Thai-run and foreign-run that will continue to help where help is needed. There are plenty of poor folks and disadvantaged Thais who aren't getting any help. I'm not about to sit by and do nothing if I can help. Go ahead and kick me out for helping the disadvantaged. If you are reincarnated as a dog turd, that'll be the reason why.

[girlx]

curious- i was looking for volunteer work to do in BKK to kill time, and most of what I found you actually have to pay for! so do these places all give work permits? i didn't see mention of them!

[Mario2008]

Working of aliens Act:

Section 5. In this Act,

"alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

Section 7. Subject to section 10, an alien may engage in any work which is not prohibited by the Royal Decree issued under section 6 only upon receipt of a permit from the Director-General or official entrusted by the Director-General except an alien who is permitted to enter the Kingdom for temporary stay under the law on immigration in order to engage in the work which is of necessity and urgency for period not longer than fifteen days, but such alien may engage in the work after he has notified the Director-General or official entrusted by the Director-General in writing in the forms prescribed by the Director-General.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mario2008