Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[jumnien]

If listening to people complain all the time arouses a sense of anger or resentment or judgement in oneself, I suppose one could merely stop listening to the complaints. Change channels. Switch to another forum for a while. It is not worth becoming agitated because of others lack of acceptance for the way things really are. In your pursuit to see things clearly, as they really are, perhaps you would be wise to let most other people be and just concentrate on your family and mentors and a few friends. Just a thought. I admire your path.

Sunrise, this thread is not an attempt to change anybody. It is just a question. I do find the constant belittling of Thai people a bit annoying, but I'm a big boy and have needed to deal with worse. I don't resent the malcontents so much as I'm curious about their motivations. Mind you, when I walk away from the computer I will find something more important to focus on. Good luck with path. As your friends would say; "And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation--some fact of my life --unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."

Beautiful words! It works, it really does... Sometimes, in meditation and in life as one, it is best to let noise become just noise, not identify with it, struggle against it, attempt to defeat it or change it.

[garro]

Some people here are making way to much of this thread. Criticism is fine but all this bitching and moanig about the Thai populace is tiresome. Who the he-l cares if Thais pick their noses or if young shopgirls in BKK are bitchy. Those are the topics garro is referring to, correct me if I am wrong garro.

As the thread says on the title and the OP. Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand.

I personally try and avoid all the criticism of Thailand, but my question was more general and as you stated.

[geriatrickid]

The great social reforms of the 19th and 20th century - working conditions for labourers, the anti-slavery movement, universal suffrage, major independence movements, modern nursing, mental health reform, full emancipation of the American Negro - were accomplished by brave civil activists (many of them spiritual and pacifists) who dared to challenge the status quo. Did every improvement in Thailand occur because the controllers of Siam and Thailand acted out of the goodness of their hearts, with no influence from foreigners?

Gee, next time, I should ask you to write for me. Expressed better than what i tried to write. Reading more of garro's replies, I have a better understanding of what he is saying, which is that for some, it is best to deal with what they can have an immediate impact upon. He does have a point as none of us can initiate the type of public opinion and behaviour change that many of us believe is badly needed. Perhaps if we start in our own little spaces by setting good examples and acting as role models?

I'm one of those over critical of Thailand types because I'm frustrated. I can't change anything. My pleas, suggestions, requests are ignored just as far more important and better qualified farang and Thai views are disgarded by the ruling cliques. I've told my friends that if they are so bummed out by being poor to consider a change in spending habits. Do they listen? No. they just want to get the newest consumer items. I'm at a point now where I'm sort of immune to their complaints and the working Thai's predicament. I can easily walk over a begger (bad form I know). I cope by trying to be kind to those with no voice - the local wildlife and stray kitties & doggies.

I get the feeling this is a nation that will only obtain the changes needed if it undergoes an upheaval, a Vietnam experience. As much as I dislike the commies, I think (South) Vietnam today is much better off than when it was run by regimes similar to Thailand's. People tried to initiate change there too, but were ignored and we all know the bloodshed that ensued.

[GuestHouse]

You read this site and count the number of times Thai people are referred to as lazy, corrupt, careless, lacking compassion, or otherwise evil each day - it is appalling.

You know I'm not sure that the premise here is even correct.

I'm not saying that there are no instances of foreigners making negative comments about Thais - There clearly are.

But are such comments as common as is alleged?

I'm not at all sure they are, and moreover where the negative comments are made I don't think there are many instances where an individual foreigner expresses serial negative comments in the same post/thread.

A foreigner may refer to a Thai(s) as lazy or corrupt or careless or lacking compassion or otherwise evil.

But does anyone here refer to a Thai(s) as Lazy and currupt and careless and lacking compassion and otherwise evil? - I don't think so.

So what are we discussing - The aggregate of comments made by Foreigners? And if so is this aggregate figure as high as claimed - is it at a daily level that is shocking?

And there again, if we are discussing an aggregate of foreigner comments - What is to be done? Are we to assume that negative comments are unfounded? Are we to assume they reasonable? or are we to assume something between to two?

And should we have a maximum daily tally of negative comments such that if any does have cause (founded or not) to have a gripe, they must first check the daily count to ensure they don't cross the line?

All that seems a lot of work and a great deal worry for something that is not even proven to exist.

Edited July 12, 2008 by GuestHouse

[mommysboy]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

I say yes, on the one hand it is important to get on with circumstance, on the other the poor old farang has to put up with a lot of discrimination. Not good enough to say if you don't like it go home- Earth is our home.

[mommysboy]

I say no. We are not forced to live here and anyone with basic logic can see how poorly run Thailand and it's society is, but still probably a lot more fun than back home.

Ok we're not forced to live here, but why should that stop us from criticising or complaining if we feel unfairly treated or standards are plain poor ?

[PeaceBlondie]

Let me see if I can find the middle path between being a cranky, uninvited, always negative foreigner and a rose-colored apologist for all things Thai (and who does nothing at all to improve things), no matter how atrocious conditions are. After much dialogue, maybe I heard garro and others admit that sometimes, within their limited spheres of influence, they in fact do try to work toward social improvement, locally or within their family. I may be confused with Yul Brynner, but I suspect that Anna Leonowens, Frederick Douglass, or Abraham Lincoln helped influence the end of slavery in....Siam.

Community activists in the West say "Think globally and act locally" - could that even apply to farang in Thailand? To me, one of the most frustrating things about farang trying to do something to help Thais is that volunteer work is virtually always illegal.

As a teenager, I told my neurotic mother, "If you can't do something good about it, do not worry about it." She worked at the hospital as a volunteer. But did Milton, the blind poet, say that they also serve, who only stand and wait? But do the blind and mute serve if they do nothing at all, not even discuss serious problems?

[ChiefBEM]

Those who choose to live in any country other than the country they were born and grew-up in have made their choice so they should stop complaining!

Obviously, they have found something better and that is why they are not living in their home country.

Once you understand the way the government is and you do not like it .... go home ..... or shut your yap!

Regards,

ChiefBEM

[Jingthing]

Obviously, they have found something better and that is why they are not living in their home country.

You make a good point. We probably shouldn't complain to our hosts, the Thais, but I don't see the problem with venting among other non-Thais. Who does it hurt? Of course we mostly chose to come here, but it ain't perfect, no place is, and I don't see why we have to turn off our prized critical facilities just because we crossed a border.

[ChiefBEM]

Obviously, they have found something better and that is why they are not living in their home country.

You make a good point. We probably shouldn't complain to our hosts, the Thais, but I don't see the problem with venting among other non-Thais. Who does it hurt? Of course we mostly chose to come here, but it ain't perfect, no place is, and I don't see why we have to turn off our prized critical facilities just because we crossed a border.

OK.

I concede your point, in that expats complaining within expat circles is ok.

However, each person needs to look at a mirror and take note of the good things that brought them to live in Thailand, before they condemn the government, the country, or the people.

Regards,

ChiefBEM

[ChiefBEM]

Obviously, they have found something better and that is why they are not living in their home country.

You make a good point. We probably shouldn't complain to our hosts, the Thais, but I don't see the problem with venting among other non-Thais. Who does it hurt? Of course we mostly chose to come here, but it ain't perfect, no place is, and I don't see why we have to turn off our prized critical facilities just because we crossed a border.

OK.

I concede your point, in that expats complaining within expat circles is ok.

However, each person needs to look at a mirror and take note of the good things that brought them to live in Thailand, before they condemn the government, the country, or the people.

Regards,

ChiefBEM

Just one question for everyone.

Are any of you naive enough to think that only expats are participating in these forums?

Regards,

ChiefBEM

[Naam]

Right to criticize? Depends. Is it constructive? Does it come from a place of wanting to identify a problem for the sake of understanding it and trying to make it better in some way? Or is it identified for the purpose of denigrating or disrespecting a person, or culture? I suspect that most criticism on TV is the later, couched in the former.

BINGO!

[garro]

Let me see if I can find the middle path between being a cranky, uninvited, always negative foreigner and a rose-colored apologist for all things Thai (and who does nothing at all to improve things), no matter how atrocious conditions are. After much dialogue, maybe I heard garro and others admit that sometimes, within their limited spheres of influence, they in fact do try to work toward social improvement, locally or within their family. I may be confused with Yul Brynner, but I suspect that Anna Leonowens, Frederick Douglass, or Abraham Lincoln helped influence the end of slavery in....Siam.

Community activists in the West say "Think globally and act locally" - could that even apply to farang in Thailand? To me, one of the most frustrating things about farang trying to do something to help Thais is that volunteer work is virtually always illegal.

As a teenager, I told my neurotic mother, "If you can't do something good about it, do not worry about it." She worked at the hospital as a volunteer. But did Milton, the blind poet, say that they also serve, who only stand and wait? But do the blind and mute serve if they do nothing at all, not even discuss serious problems?

Sorry PB but we seem to be talking about different things. I am talking about the constant barage of negative comments about Thailand. If the posts were more connected with individual occurences or people it would be more understandable, but I am talking about the frequent derogotarty comments about the Thai people as a whole. It would seem that a large section of TV agree with these comments (which is no suprise as so many do it) but it is nice to see that most seem not to agree with it.

I do not see this as just westerners letting off steam in a harmless way. I agree that there are very few Thais to defend themselves, but you can use any search engine and search for Thailand in connection with almost any subject and you will find links to this site. This seems a bit unfair to me.

An example of how extreme this negativity about Thailand was a thread a few months back. A poster provided a link to an article which he claimed that Thailand had the highest amount of mental health problems in the world (or such like, it doesn't really matter as I can't link to it). The thread was quickly full with the resident experts with their long winded posts about why the people of Thailand were like this. The problem was that in their eagerness to putting another boot into Thailand they failed to read the article which did not say what the OP was claiming. After it was pointed out the thread went strangely quite before being closed and later deleted. This seems to be the attitude often here. The vultures will wait for a negative thread, give their lecture. There seems to be little appetite for the positive things about Thailand.

If people want to help out in there community the rightly receive my admiration, but people who spend there time whinging about a race of people on an internet forum less so. I don't find their claims that their efforts are noble to be in any way convincing despite their often articulate posts.

[GuestHouse]

I am talking about the constant barage of negative comments about Thailand.

It has yet to be demonstrated that there is indeed a 'constant barrage'.

[garro]

I am talking about the constant barage of negative comments about Thailand.

It has yet to be demonstrated that there is indeed a 'constant barrage'.

What? Do you want me to provide links to all the posts on this site which criticise the people of Thai as a whole for the mistakes of a few?

I am sure that you will have no problem finding these posts as you are one of the more frequent posters on this type of thread.

GH, you might convince yourself that this type of criticism is somehow an noble effort to improve Thailand, but I disagree.

Threads which talk about the people of Thailand as a single entity are dumb.

People can try and excuse the regular posts which class all Thai women as prostitutes as a positive form of social activism, but I don't.

Threads like. 'do Thai women love their children' is not helpful it is an insult - at least in my view.

These type of threads are not infrequent but occur all too frequently.

I would class this is as a constant barrage.

I do believe that negativity about the Thais is way over the top and out of all proportion.

I don't expect you to see that though.

Edited July 13, 2008 by garro

[johnnyk]

Expats are only bitching to each other. The Thais don't give a dam_n what they think. Get over it or go somewhere else.

[garro]

Expats are only bitching to each other. The Thais don't give a dam_n what they think. Get over it or go somewhere else.

As far as I'm aware this is an open forum and you have no power to decide who posts or doesn't post here.

Or am I wrong?

Have you been elected the official spokesperson of something?

[Shotime]

I agree with GH, who's complaining. The only complaints I hear are from guys having problems with their "GF's." Then everything Thai bothers them. Things can be annoying anywhere if you're annoyed.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Shotime

[Dave the Dude]

Raising the issue of Human rights violations is like reporting to the police that John stole a candy so that the police will not notice that you stole a pen. Its just a matter of who got to the police first.

Countries like the US have been using this trick for so long. It used to be the Red Scare! Then it was about Drugs, Intellectual Property Issues, etc. Now the lastest baby is Human Trafficking!

All of these are just buttons to push to keep countries like Thailand, unsettled so that the superpowers can plunder other countries at will. It is a tool to deflect attention from the real issues at hand.

Just like a magician - sleight of hand, misdirection, switch and before you know it - you've been s crewed.

I saw Tommy Cooper do that once,Classic

I voted NO and wonder if any ex-pets have actually got off there @rses and complained to thier respective Embassies about the so-called Thai errors?

I bet you could count the number who have,on one hand? Otherwise why complain to people who cannot change a thing. I am not suggesting BTW that embassies have any powers here!!

Dave

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Let me see if I can find the middle path between being a cranky, uninvited, always negative foreigner and a rose-colored apologist for all things Thai (and who does nothing at all to improve things), no matter how atrocious conditions are. After much dialogue, maybe I heard garro and others admit that sometimes, within their limited spheres of influence, they in fact do try to work toward social improvement, locally or within their family. I may be confused with Yul Brynner, but I suspect that Anna Leonowens, Frederick Douglass, or Abraham Lincoln helped influence the end of slavery in....Siam.

Community activists in the West say "Think globally and act locally" - could that even apply to farang in Thailand? To me, one of the most frustrating things about farang trying to do something to help Thais is that volunteer work is virtually always illegal.

As a teenager, I told my neurotic mother, "If you can't do something good about it, do not worry about it." She worked at the hospital as a volunteer. But did Milton, the blind poet, say that they also serve, who only stand and wait? But do the blind and mute serve if they do nothing at all, not even discuss serious problems?

Sorry PB but we seem to be talking about different things. I am talking about the constant barage of negative comments about Thailand. If the posts were more connected with individual occurences or people it would be more understandable, but I am talking about the frequent derogotarty comments about the Thai people as a whole. It would seem that a large section of TV agree with these comments (which is no suprise as so many do it) but it is nice to see that most seem not to agree with it.

I do not see this as just westerners letting off steam in a harmless way. I agree that there are very few Thais to defend themselves, but you can use any search engine and search for Thailand in connection with almost any subject and you will find links to this site. This seems a bit unfair to me.

An example of how extreme this negativity about Thailand was a thread a few months back. A poster provided a link to an article which he claimed that Thailand had the highest amount of mental health problems in the world (or such like, it doesn't really matter as I can't link to it). The thread was quickly full with the resident experts with their long winded posts about why the people of Thailand were like this. The problem was that in their eagerness to putting another boot into Thailand they failed to read the article which did not say what the OP was claiming. After it was pointed out the thread went strangely quite before being closed and later deleted. This seems to be the attitude often here. The vultures will wait for a negative thread, give their lecture. There seems to be little appetite for the positive things about Thailand.

If people want to help out in there community the rightly receive my admiration, but people who spend there time whinging about a race of people on an internet forum less so. I don't find their claims that their efforts are noble to be in any way convincing despite their often articulate posts.

I for one am inclined to agree with most of what Garro has to say on the subject. There are several TV posters who criticize Thais and Thailand at every opportunity. And you kind of wonder if they even live in Thailand. Why would they live in a place they hate so much, unless they hate their home country even more. But then you do have the people who are not happy unless they are critical of some one or something. Life is to short to spend it being miserable and looking for faults in everything around you.

[GuestHouse]

What? Do you want me to provide links to all the posts on this site which criticise the people of Thai as a whole for the mistakes of a few?

I am sure that you will have no problem finding these posts as you are one of the more frequent posters on this type of thread.

GH, you might convince yourself that this type of criticism is somehow an noble effort to improve Thailand, but I disagree.

Threads which talk about the people of Thailand as a single entity are dumb.

People can try and excuse the regular posts which class all Thai women as prostitutes as a positive form of social activism, but I don't.

Threads like. 'do Thai women love their children' is not helpful it is an insult - at least in my view.

These type of threads are not infrequent but occur all too frequently.

I would class this is as a constant barrage.

I do believe that negativity about the Thais is way over the top and out of all proportion.

I don't expect you to see that though.

There you go again...

I can't say I have ever read a post on TV that even suggested that all Thai women are Prostitutes and I can only recall one post asking 'Do Thai [people really] love the their children' - in which the Poster raised the point that many Thais disregard the most basic of safety with their children - Not, I would say, and unreasonable observation.

I've read plenty of post denigrating the whole of 'Western Womanhood' - but those don't seem to bother you.

[Shotime]

or the whole of the USA (citizens and it's politics). Maybe he's talking about the uni girls uniforms, and I only saw one person critical of that.

[GuestHouse]

My observation is that while there are occasionally members who post nothing but negative views (they don't usually stay around long) and there are occasionally members who post nothing but gushingly positive views (usually wears off when they've been in Thailand a while longer) most members post a balanced mixture of views +ve on some aspects of life in Thailand -ve on others.

I'd also note that many of the critical comments are from people who genuinely care about Thailand and the Thai people they live with.

Concerned that things are better for all, including Thais, rather than happy that things are left as they are so that they may enjoy their own 'private privileges'.

So I suspect that most posts reflect the real life experiences of members in Thailand.

If that is so, and it does not seem unreasonable, then it begs a question.

Are the negative posts a reflection of real experience?

That, I think is a far more interesting question - and doesn't step on anyone's right to have and express an opinion.

But of course the answers might not be comfortable.

'

[garro]

What? Do you want me to provide links to all the posts on this site which criticise the people of Thai as a whole for the mistakes of a few?

I am sure that you will have no problem finding these posts as you are one of the more frequent posters on this type of thread.

GH, you might convince yourself that this type of criticism is somehow an noble effort to improve Thailand, but I disagree.

Threads which talk about the people of Thailand as a single entity are dumb.

People can try and excuse the regular posts which class all Thai women as prostitutes as a positive form of social activism, but I don't.

Threads like. 'do Thai women love their children' is not helpful it is an insult - at least in my view.

These type of threads are not infrequent but occur all too frequently.

I would class this is as a constant barrage.

I do believe that negativity about the Thais is way over the top and out of all proportion.

I don't expect you to see that though.

There you go again...

I can't say I have ever read a post on TV that even suggested that all Thai women are Prostitutes and I can only recall one post asking 'Do Thai [people really] love the their children' - in which the Poster raised the point that many Thais disregard the most basic of safety with their children - Not, I would say, and unreasonable observation.

I've read plenty of post denigrating the whole of 'Western Womanhood' - but those don't seem to bother you.

There you go again, not answering the substance of the post but instead nit-picking at the small details and changing the subject. I often find what you don't say in response to other posters far more interesting than what you do say.

In regards to western woman. I have never criticised western women on these forums, and I have always defended them when the times I saw any nasty/disrespectful comment. I don't think these type of comments should be tolerated, but they are far fewer and less critical than those directed at Thais. I actually once started a thread asking why posters were so critical of women generally but it was quickly deleted. Your attempt at this switch of subject is just lame.

Edited July 13, 2008 by garro

[garro]

Oh and Guesthouse, in regards to your claim that you have never seen a post which suggested that all Thai women are prostitutes. Maybe you should look harder. I didn't even try to look, but found one straight away;

Thai women dont like farang they just like their money.

I couldn't take a wife who only wanted an easy life and a free ride but really all she is waiting for is me to die so she can go home and make a house and marry the thai she has always told me is her little brother or cousin.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Farang-Kon-Thai-t199213.html

Was this comment so easy to find due to mere chance - I just happened to find the one type of comment like this on the forum?

Or is this type of comment made so frequently that you can't help but run across them.

[PeaceBlondie]

garro, thanks for reminding us of many things, and for starting this discussion. It all seemed like such a simple poll, too simple"

"Should ex-pats be so critical of Thailand?"

Not to nit-pick, but you asked our opinion about moral judgment, "Should" rather than "Are," thus opening the discussion to moral rights, legal rights, etc. It became largely a debate of many things at the same time. I honestly thought you and others were saying that we had no moral or legal right to say one negative thing about Thailand.

You all realize, of course, that it violates a standard ThaiVisa rule to be extremely negative about Thailand or the Thai people.

3) ....extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated. If you think that comments violate that rule, report the post and let the moderators decide. I nearly started a rant last week about criticism of non-Thais,. I am more sick of jokes against stupid Americans than the Irish and Welsh may be sick of jokes against their fellow citizens. However, note the adverb in the bolded phrase: extremely. You can comment that sidewalks in Bangkok are filled with street vendors, or that the sky in Chiang Mai gets rather smoky in March, or that Thai education is less than perfect.

garro, I apologize that after I read each one of your many posts in this thread, I kept thinking you honestly believed we all should have left our brains at the airport, along with our voices. You do not mean that.

[Shotime]

You mean stupid jokes about Americans, I'm sure.

[Maigo6]

Are the complaints about all things Thai by posters a true reflection of their lives here ?

I doubt it very much.

Would a sane person would subject themselves to a life of unhappiness in Thailand if they had the price of an airfare out.

Thailand ain't a Penal colony, you are free to leave whenever you want to. The majority of Thai people don't have that freedom of choice.

[GuestHouse]

Oh and Guesthouse, in regards to your claim that you have never seen a post which suggested that all Thai women are prostitutes. Maybe you should look harder. I didn't even try to look, but found one straight away;

Thai women dont like farang they just like their money.

I couldn't take a wife who only wanted an easy life and a free ride but really all she is waiting for is me to die so she can go home and make a house and marry the thai she has always told me is her little brother or cousin.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Farang-Kon-Thai-t199213.html

Was this comment so easy to find due to mere chance - I just happened to find the one type of comment like this on the forum?

Or is this type of comment made so frequently that you can't help but run across them.

While something of a bitter view of Thai women, it falls short of calling anyone a prostitute.

Maybe you are a tad too sensitive on this issue.

[garro]

garro, thanks for reminding us of many things, and for starting this discussion. It all seemed like such a simple poll, too simple"

"Should ex-pats be so critical of Thailand?"

Not to nit-pick, but you asked our opinion about moral judgment, "Should" rather than "Are," thus opening the discussion to moral rights, legal rights, etc. It became largely a debate of many things at the same time. I honestly thought you and others were saying that we had no moral or legal right to say one negative thing about Thailand.

You all realize, of course, that it violates a standard ThaiVisa rule to be extremely negative about Thailand or the Thai people.

3) ....extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated. If you think that comments violate that rule, report the post and let the moderators decide. I nearly started a rant last week about criticism of non-Thais,. I am more sick of jokes against stupid Americans than the Irish and Welsh may be sick of jokes against their fellow citizens. However, note the adverb in the bolded phrase: extremely. You can comment that sidewalks in Bangkok are filled with street vendors, or that the sky in Chiang Mai gets rather smoky in March, or that Thai education is less than perfect.

garro, I apologize that after I read each one of your many posts in this thread, I kept thinking you honestly believed we all should have left our brains at the airport, along with our voices. You do not mean that.

I am sorry that after reading my many posts on this thread that you thought I wanted people to leave their brains at the airport. I obviously wasn't clear enough. I was actually advocating that people use their brains before publishing every thought in their head on the internet.