Unreasonable Searches Of Americans Laptops By Us Govt

[Jingthing]

Finally, a voice of reason about this incredible invasion of privacy of traveling American citizens.

This is Thai related because there is anecdotal evidence that Americans returning from Thailand are among the most targeted travelers for these laptop (and camera memory card) invasive WITHOUT CAUSE searches. In my view, such extreme invasions of privacy are the kind of thing done by TOTALITARIAN regimes of the left and right (Stalinist Russia, Hitler's Germany, today's Burma and North Korea).

The government has the right to take reasonable steps to control what comes into the country, but the laptop-search program's invasions of privacy go far beyond what is reasonable.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/10/opinion/edlaptop.php

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[britmaveric]

Good on the yanks - looking for pedo(s).

Nothing to hide and if I did they wouldnt be able to access it. Notebooks never been searched once in all my travels.

[Jingthing]

The topic is about AMERICANS returning to the US from abroad. Our government spying on its own citizens. It is wrong. It is downright un-American. As the article correctly states, it is in effect the same thing as the government knocking your door down without cause, and rifling through your private files and papers, except these are soft copy private files and papers. It is outrageous.

You know the country song "I'm proud to be an American because at least I know I'm free?" No, you are not.

Libertarians and constitutional purists get their panties in a bunch about their so called right to carry firearms in urban America. That doesn't even compare to the government spying on your private files without cause and due process.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[britmaveric]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

[h90]

Finally, a voice of reason about this incredible invasion of privacy of traveling American citizens.

This is Thai related because there is anecdotal evidence that Americans returning from Thailand are among the most targeted travelers for these laptop (and camera memory card) invasive WITHOUT CAUSE searches. In my view, such extreme invasions of privacy are the kind of thing done by TOTALITARIAN regimes of the left and right (Stalinist Russia, Hitler's Germany, today's Burma and North Korea).

The government has the right to take reasonable steps to control what comes into the country, but the laptop-search program's invasions of privacy go far beyond what is reasonable.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/10/opinion/edlaptop.php

"(and camera memory card)" really???

but if I park my data at mail.ru (not google or yahoo of course) it is not searched. and the bad guys don't know that?

[Jingthing]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

Nope. I don't even own a laptop. Are you British? How could you understand American's ideas of privacy rights? You do not need to have anything to hide to be opposed to totalitarian government tactics. If I did have something to hide, I wouldn't be so stupid as to carry it across a border anyway. This goes beyond having something to hide. Read the article. Consider what people keep on their laptops, personal emails, financial data, passwords etc.

Yeah, I mentioned the camera cards because it is clearly a related issue and there have been many reports of travelers having their cards read (and or film developed).

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[Moonrakers]

I could see how some people may see it as an invasion of privacy, although for me personally if the UK started then it wouldn't bother me as all they would find would be games, music, games, music and possibly the odd work related document.

There have been a few cases recently where offenders have been caught out because of incriminating images on their PC's/laptops and so it could also be effective.

[Crushdepth]

The topic is about AMERICANS returning to the US from abroad. Our government spying on its own citizens.

Since I'm not a US citizen I kind of resent them spying on everyone else. At least now we can all suffer equally :-)

If it bothers you, could be a good time to start encrypting your hard drive. Have a look at truecrypt, its free and dead easy to use and offers 'plausible deniability' (there is a nice podcast explaining how it works available at GRC).

[Jingthing]

They force people (at least I have read this) to unlock data and I would also assume to unencrypt data (supply passwords) and if you don't, you are in a heap of trouble. Of course, you could hope they don't know enough about what to look for, and that is no doubt sometimes the case. Yes, I agree without cause invasive searches are bad for everybody. This isn't opening your suitcase to look for whisky. This is looking at private files.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[Crushdepth]

Last I heard they couldn't force people (well, US people) to decrypt things etc but I understand there has been a fair amount of overly paranoid legislation passed in the last few years. Anyway, have a look at the plausible deniability feature. Another way to handle it would be to just leave your confidential data at home and if you need it, access it remotely over a VPN (Hamachi, also dead simple to set up and there's a podcast on that too).

Edited July 12, 2008 by Crushdepth

[RakJungTorlae]

A lot of website are flagged these days. Once you enter them your IP is flagged. Then they will “Try” and keep you in there sights. Not just U.S!- U,K UE AU ect. There’s no real affective way to keep track of Freaks thou for long term unless the can catch them with more evidence. Normally its photos that will get people PIND. but I think it’s a good idea to search hard drives

I’m for it- these bad guys should not get away with it, my only problem is I hope they don’t fine me for 10,000 MP3

[j0hnga1t]

Border searches....I have been to Thailand the four times in the past year. When I returned home last month from visiting my gf, I was searched. The person with Customs and Border Protection was very nice and I had a nice chat with her. I understand that there is a problem with childporn (cp) and I fit a profile.... single middle-age male traveling a lot to Thailand....crazy huh? Not everyone who goes there is into cp and I find it outrageous to think that they think that; however, I know that there it is a hugh problem, Thailand is one of those "hotspots" for this type of activity BUT they are just doing their job. cp is sick and I don't mind the inconvience

I had a secure thumbdrive with me last June when I returned. It's the type the self-destructs after 10 attempts to enter a password. It was in plain view. If they wanted me to open it, I would have coz I have nothing to hide. Understand that a lot of people into cp, as well as security conscious people like me, use these type of thumbdrives.

Understand that when crossing the border, you have no rights. If you have a computer and they want to look at it, they have every right to look at it. If you don't want to give them a password, they can take it and hold it until you do.

[Moonrakers]

What about the random luggage searches at airports that have been going in for years? Same principal applies yet nobody bitches about their privacy rights their because it is accepted as necessary.

No doubt they look for other things aside from drugs and a few naughty polaroids would land somebody in big trouble.

The world has gone digital now and so random checks are having to adapt accordingly.

[Spee]

US citizens are constitutionally protected against these tactics by the Bill of Rights, specifically the 4th amendment to the constitution:

"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Anything that is open and available can and possibly will be searched. I would interpret this to include non-encrypted disks such as camcorder and camera solid state memory, memory sticks, other flash memory, etc. On the other hand, one should not be obligated to provide a log-in password, just as one would is not obligated to allow police into one's house. Be polite but firm and tell 'em to get a warrant.

Non-US citizens may not be afforded the same rights (unless of course one is a terrorist detainee).

IMHO, this should be evidence that every picture taken should be put on the laptop or uploaded to some other device rather than be left in the camera.

Also, people need to be aware of all the evidenciary back doors that are built into modern electronic devices. Every piece of paper printed, every file stored to memory, every picture taken, etc., has data embedded in it. This data provides traceability to the model and serial number of the device. A JPEG is more than just a JPEG.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Spee

[sleir]

Americans are just nuts when it comes to travelling in and out of their country. The very reason why I won't go there, despite being able to fly to NY for about 100 USD from Switzerland. But a biometric passport that is only valid for 2 years and costs me three times the amount of a normal one (already expensive in CH) ?... Applying a long time in advance for a Visa, together with a heap of money, picture, docs filled out etc etc... ? Undressing for some crazy Yank just because he can't properly search someone (like it happened to a friend of mine) ? No, thanks

We on the other hand give US citizens a visa on arrival for 90 days, no routine body searches, friendly airport police...

Let's see how this works for the US when it comes to tourist and business travel. I've heard a lot business people get their visas refused, or are being sent back after arrival.. mostly no reason given whatsoever.

[Jimjim]

Yeah, I mentioned the camera cards because it is clearly a related issue and there have been many reports of travelers having their cards read (and or film developed).

They probably target those returning from Thailand because of high profile pedophile cases and/or statistics. Not so bad to try and get those who commit one of the most disgusting crimes you can commit in this world.

As for developing film, I'd be all for it. Free film developing at U.S. Customs! They should advertise this for travelers returning from Thailand. I'll be sure to have some undeveloped film next time.

[Spee]

I've heard a lot business people get their visas refused, or are being sent back after arrival.. mostly no reason given whatsoever.

Oh yeah??

What have you heard? From where have you heard it? Specifically.

[Jimjim]

I've heard a lot business people get their visas refused, or are being sent back after arrival.. mostly no reason given whatsoever.

Oh yeah??

What have you heard? From where have you heard it? Specifically.

No reason to get defensive. It happens. The U.S. immigration has become much more strict under Bush and after 9/11.

Ask one of the longtime posters Naam on this very board. You'll get your answer. Oh yeah, you will. Oh yeah. He'll give you your specific answer.

[Spee]

there have been many reports of travelers having their cards read (and or film developed).

As for developing film, I'd be all for it.  Free film developing at U.S. Customs!

Specificity please? What reports? From where?

With no supporting evidence or search warrant, this seems clearly to be unreasonable siezure and search.

I doubt quite seriously that undeveloped personal film is being confiscated and taken into evidence without there being the makings of a case prior to the actual event.

[cophen]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

Nope. I don't even own a laptop. Are you British? How could you understand American's ideas of privacy rights?

As an aside Google is finding that the British idea of privacy rights is rather wider than they bargained for. Their 'Streetview' photography is causing a bit of a hoo-haa over here.

Edited July 12, 2008 by cophen

[Spee]

I've heard a lot business people get their visas refused, or are being sent back after arrival.. mostly no reason given whatsoever.

Oh yeah??

What have you heard? From where have you heard it? Specifically.

No reason to get defensive. It happens.

Not getting defensive, just asking for something other than what appears to be mindless speculation or blog droning.

Although I have my issues with some of what Bush has done recently, by and large he has been effective. But I would tend to agree with anyone who suggests the Dept of Home Sec has become completely over the top.

I'm a conservative but I'm a constitutionalist first. The Constitution and Bill of Rights takes precedence over any and all political leanings. If there is evidence that the Dept of Home Sec may be acting unconstitutionally, then people have a right to know about it.

[Jingthing]

I'm a conservative but I'm a constitutionalist first. The Constitution and Bill of Rights takes precedence over any and all political leanings. If there is evidence that the Dept of Home Sec may be acting unconstitutionally, then people have a right to know about it.

Here here. A case where a conservative and a liberal completely agree.

[Jimjim]

I really think this whole thread is a stretch to be Thailand related and very likely will turn into a talk about American politics completely irrelevant to life in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

there have been many reports of travelers having their cards read (and or film developed).

As for developing film, I'd be all for it. Free film developing at U.S. Customs!

Specificity please? What reports? From where?

With no supporting evidence or search warrant, this seems clearly to be unreasonable siezure and search.

I doubt quite seriously that undeveloped personal film is being confiscated and taken into evidence without there being the makings of a case prior to the actual event.

I can't cite any links on this. I have read reports on other forums of first hand experiences, particularly photo memory cards being read in the same way a laptop would be scanned. I also recall reading about cases of film being developed as part of the process when a person is put into higher level screening, for example, full luggage search and body search. I do suspect the memory card thing is much more common but I would assume that airport immigration ports have photo developing capabilities. Why wouldn't they? Perhaps someone else has a source for this info, to confirm or deny.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I really think this whole thread is a stretch to be Thailand related and very likely will turn into a talk about American politics completely irrelevant to life in Thailand.

Fair enough. But keep in mind that most of the reports I have read about photo memory cards being read are about Americans returning from THAILAND. I have also read a number of first hand reports of the same class of travelers having their laptops scanned. It is pretty clear Thailand is one of their more targeted countries. Nothing new or controversial about that.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing

[MengWan]

I am puzzled by reading that many times said "I have nothing to hide ..."

I would kindly ask of those "good citizens" to post their bank accounts numbers, their passwords and all other personal data they do not have to hide

Privacy is a simple thing but, sadly, it seems that more and more people do not even understand what it is !

[j0hnga1t]

Hey MengWan,  

I have nothing to hide from the US Govt when they make an official inquiry (like the type they do when you cross the border)  Don't get this confused with stupidity.

Spee,

Don't be talking about or arguing about your fourth amendment right when Customs and Border Protection starts to look in your bag because you won't win.  It's by statute/law that they can search your stuff w/o probable cause.  The extent of the search (tearing up the lining of your luggage, waiting for you to take a poop or x-raying you, searching your person, imaging your electronic media vs just looking at what pictures are saved on your computer/camera) is another issue and should be reasonable (this is probably where the 4th amendment kicks in).  The assumption is that a normal citizen would be co-operative and if you are not, they can make your life miserable.  The border is one of those "exceptions" to the fourth amendment.

[Spee]

Don't be talking about or arguing about your fourth amendment right when Customs and Border Protection starts to look in your bag because you won't win.  It's by statute/law that they can search your stuff w/o probable cause.

I never said they didn't have a right to search. What I said was the 4th gives protection against unreasonable search and seizure.

Here is an example. Let's say I do sensitive work and my laptop has an encrypted hard drive to protect the contents. Or even if my laptop requires a password for access. I am not obligated to anyone to provide that password without cause, such as a search warrant. They can turn it on, examine the hardware, scan it, x-ray it, whatever. But they have no rights to the content without showing cause. Period. End of story. If they want to detain me, then so be it but be prepared for the consequences of overzealousness.

Don't get me wrong. I want these people doing their job well just as much as the next guy. But they also are not above the law and must be accountable for their actions.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

US citizens are constitutionally protected against these tactics by the Bill of Rights, specifically the 4th amendment to the constitution:

"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Anything that is open and available can and possibly will be searched. I would interpret this to include non-encrypted disks such as camcorder and camera solid state memory, memory sticks, other flash memory, etc. On the other hand, one should not be obligated to provide a log-in password, just as one would is not obligated to allow police into one's house. Be polite but firm and tell 'em to get a warrant.

Unfortunately, the 4th amendment does not apply with equal force when you are at a U.S. border crossing. You can be detained as long as 48 hours and your memory device can be held indefinitely. Such detentions only require a reasonable suspicion of contraband smuggling on the part of customs agents, not probable cause. U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985) (holding border agents must only have reasonable suspicion of alimentary canal smuggling to justify a body cavity search and 48-hour detention). More recently, in U.S. v. Romm, 455 F.3d 990 (9th Cir. July 24, 2006), the most liberal appellate court held that forensic analysis of laptops and external memory devices may be conducted as a routine part of a border search.

U.S. v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606 (1977)

That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border should, by now, require no extended demonstration. The Congress which proposed the Bill of Rights, including the Fourth Amendment, to the state legislatures on September 2, 1789, 1 Stat. 97, had, some two months prior to that proposal, enacted the first customs statute, Act of July 31, 1789, c. 5, 1 Stat. 29. Section 24 of this statute granted customs officials "full power and authority" to enter and search "any ship or vessel, in which they shall have reason to suspect any goods, wares or merchandise subject to duty shall be concealed. . . ." This acknowledgment of plenary customs power was differentiated from the more limited power to enter and search "any particular dwelling-house, store, building, or other place . . ." where a warrant upon "cause to suspect" was required. The historical importance of the enactment of this customs statute by the same Congress which proposed the Fourth Amendment is, we think, manifest. This Court so concluded almost a century ago. In Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 623 (1886), this Court observed: "The seizure of stolen goods is authorized by the common law; and the seizure of goods forfeited for a breach of the revenue laws, or concealed to avoid the duties payable on them, has been authorized by English statutes for at least two centuries past; and the like seizures have been authorized by our own revenue acts from the commencement of the government. The first statute passed by Congress to regulate the collection of duties, the act of July 31, 1789, 1 Stat. 29, 43, contains provisions to this effect. As this act was passed by the same Congress which proposed for adoption the original amendments to the Constitution, it is clear that the members of that body did not regard searches and seizures of this kind as 'unreasonable,' and they are not embraced within the prohibition of the amendment."

This interpretation, that border searches were not subject to the warrant provisions of the Fourth Amendment and were "reasonable" within the meaning of that Amendment, has been faithfully adhered to by this Court. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925), after noting that "[t]he Fourth Amendment does not denounce all searches or seizures, but only such as are unreasonable," id. at 267 U.S. 147, recognized the distinction between searches within this country, requiring probable cause, and border searches, id. at 267 U.S. 153-154:

"It would be intolerable and unreasonable if a prohibition agent were authorized to stop every automobile on the chance of finding liquor, and thus subject all persons lawfully using the highways to the inconvenience and indignity of such a search. Travelers may be so stopped in crossing an international boundary because of national self-protection reasonably requiring one entering the country to identify himself as entitled to come in, and his belongings as effects which may be lawfully brought in. But those lawfully within the country . . . have a right to free passage without interruption or search unless there is known to a competent official authorized to search, probable cause for believing that their vehicles are carrying contraband or illegal merchandise.[/url]"

More recently, we noted this longstanding history in United States v. Thirty-seven Photographs, 402 U.S. 363, 376 (1971): "But a port of entry is not a traveler's home. His right to be let alone neither prevents the search of his luggage nor the seizure of unprotected, but illegal, materials when his possession of them is discovered during such a search. Customs officials characteristically inspect luggage, and their power to do so is not questioned in this case; it is an old practice, and is intimately associated with excluding illegal articles from the country."

In United States v. 12 200-Ft. Reels of Film, 413 U.S. 123, 125 (1973), we observed: "Import restrictions and searches of persons or packages at the national borders rest on different considerations and different rules of constitutional law from domestic regulations. The Constitution gives Congress broad, comprehensive powers '[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations.' Art. I, § 8, cl. 3. Historically such broad powers have been necessary to prevent smuggling and to prevent prohibited articles from entry."

Finally, citing Carroll and Boyd, this Court stated in Almeida-Sanchez v. United States, 413 U.S. 266, 272 (1973), that it was "without doubt" that the power to exclude aliens "can be effectuated by routine inspections and searches of individuals or conveyances seeking to cross our borders." Border searches, then, from before the adoption of the Fourth Amendment, have been considered to be "reasonable" by the single fact that the person or item in question had entered into our country from outside. There has never been any additional requirement that the reasonableness of a border search depended on the existence of probable cause. This longstanding recognition that searches at our borders without probable cause and without a warrant are nonetheless "reasonable" has a history as old as the Fourth Amendment itself.

Edited July 12, 2008 by zaphodbeeblebrox

[cloudhopper]

Customs went through every single one of my photo prints the last time I went through. Resistance is futile. Most of my fellow Americans never leave the US, not to mention the county they were born in, so giving travelers and expats heat at the border does not have much political consequence.