Unreasonable Searches Of Americans Laptops By Us Govt

[Naam]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

and visiting the U.S. is not a must (for us foreigners)

[thomast]

Get used to the idea. As a one world govt is planned, so will Thailand also be involved, say in a year or two. Not only will your laptop be seized but your micro-chip will signal you with a bye http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...lE5SK2wLd6JGoAQ

[Mario2008]

A bout a month ago there was news that Dutch customs also searches memory devices. They stated they do that to see if some one has child porn.

[Shotime]

I don't see where in the article this search has anything to do with catching pedophiles. It seems more related to 9/11. Also, it didn't really explain the seizure part. I can't believe the security people doing the searches have the brains to conduct such an inspection. It must take forever. Things have certainly changed.

[Mario2008]

In this tread there has been mentioning of memeory cards for camera's been checked and even films being developed. Also there was mentioning of an interest in people coming from Thailand.

Of course it is also related to post 9/11, but child porn is another thing they are keeping an eye out for.

[Shotime]

In this tread there has been mentioning of memeory cards for camera's been checked and even films being developed. Also there was mentioning of an interest in people coming from Thailand.

Of course it is also related to post 9/11, but child porn is another thing they are keeping an eye out for.

Then they should be checking their computers when they leave their respective countries.

[thomast]

I don't see where in the article this search has anything to do with catching pedophiles. It seems more related to 9/11. Also, it didn't really explain the seizure part. I can't believe the security people doing the searches have the brains to conduct such an inspection. It must take forever. Things have certainly changed.

I hope you are not one of those that believe in the conspiracy theory that an Arab in a cave in Afghan. shut down the hald trillion dollar US air defenses with his laptop, then free fell three buildings, including unstruck WTC 7.

[tartempion]

They probably target those returning from Thailand because of high profile pedophile cases and/or statistics. Not so bad to try and get those who commit one of the most disgusting crimes you can commit in this world.

Statistics Yeah

Statistics prove that the vast majority of paedophile offenders are to be found in the family or nearby social circle of the victims.

So targeting returning tourists from a Thailand vacation is the easiest way to go, upsetting 99.999% of people who have no exposure to paedophiles, in no way the best one, rather a despicable one as suited to a stupid administration.

I travelled over 200 times to the US (worked 10 years for a cargo airline, 2x month to USA) and experienced the worst customs officers in my working career .

I for one think the methods used are to scare honest folks, we should all tremble of fear for the bad terrorists targeting the good administrations. Take the stupid liquid controls at airports as an other example: hundreds of millions of people disturbed and frightenedf or daring carrying some water in your pack. It's a sad joke we all need to undergo this "homeland security" crap.

[tartempion]

Customs went through every single one of my photo prints the last time I went through. Resistance is futile. Most of my fellow Americans never leave the US, not to mention the county they were born in, so giving travelers and expats heat at the border does not have much political consequence.

Anyone who travels is a potential terrorist

[Shotime]

I don't see where in the article this search has anything to do with catching pedophiles. It seems more related to 9/11. Also, it didn't really explain the seizure part. I can't believe the security people doing the searches have the brains to conduct such an inspection. It must take forever. Things have certainly changed.

I hope you are not one of those that believe in the conspiracy theory that an Arab in a cave in Afghan. shut down the hald trillion dollar US air defenses with his laptop, then free fell three buildings, including unstruck WTC 7.

Heh? That's quite a leap! Not the free fall thing, but from what I said. Maybe you just wanted to say what you said. What's "hald" mean? Oh, "half." Where did that come from?

[NotNew2You]

In my view, such extreme invasions of privacy are the kind of thing done by TOTALITARIAN regimes of the left and right (Stalinist Russia, Hitler's Germany, today's Burma and North Korea).

What do you think US society and government has degenerated to under the Bush regime. Accused terrorists thrown in jail without recourse to counsel, people picked up around the world and thrown into the dark whole of Gitmo, never to be seen or heard from again. Suspension of habeas corpus in many instances. Warrant wiretapping of telephone conversations. Warrentless monitoring of individual's financial transactions. All this and more ratified by the US electorate in the re-election of their fascist overload.

And maybe most sadly, much of it also endorsed by your boy, Obama. Witness his cave on the FISA surveillance and retroactive telecoms immunity bill (for their unlawful cooperation with illegal government spying) he recently voted for!

However, if one has their private date securely encrypted (something like PGP or True Crypt) then one is safe from these government unreasonable searches and seizures. One cannot be forced to reveal the pass codes to un-encrypt an encrypted drive without the government having probable cause for suspecting evidence of a crime is contained therein. Being a returning tourist or expatriate resident of any country in and of itself is not sufficient probable cause.

In the worst case, if there was sufficient other evidence of a crime and they wished to examine a hard-dirve for additional evidence (say financial records to support a tax evasion case), one can always "forget" the pass codes. The most the Feds could do would be to seize the drive, but if properly encrypted, it's most likely they could not extract any useful data from it.

[j0hnga1t]

Shotime, They do have the ability to analyze your computer/recover deleted files.  The person may not be posted at the airport, but rest assured they are in the same city.

Spee, Sorry for not reading your posting carefully.  Yes, I agree with you regarding "unreasonable"  However in the end you still have to show them and there will be no repercussions if they can articulate why they had reasonable suspicion....Like the traveller would not tell us his password and said "I have sensitive information on the computer" or "I have information that is propriety to my company" or "trade secrets" blah blah blah.  I guess pedophiles don't give those type of reasons for not giving up passwords.....Plus I heard from a guy at Immigration and Customs Enforcement that pedophiles are using encrypted hard drives and encrypted thumb drives........

I expect to be searched everytime I come back from Thailand.  Do I like it? No, but I accept it because of where I travel to.  WE THE INNOCENT ONES are punished and inconvenienced because of those evil people. It's a crazy world we live in

Such is life

[Shotime]

Someone said this would turn into a USA bashing thread.

Since you're letting it continue, I would just like to add that you should try to look at the USA as a reflection of European ideals (or the opposite), politics, and business practices. What kind of name is Cheney? He doesn't look like an American Indian to me. What do you think, the USA invented this shit?

The UK had it's day. Spain was brutal. Don't even want to discuss Germany.

Misdirected anger should be discussed with your Therapist.

"Shotime, They do have the ability to analyze your computer/recover deleted files. The person may not be posted at the airport, but rest assured they are in the same city. "

I don't understand. The second sentence anyway.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Shotime

[Crushdepth]

Border searches....I have been to Thailand the four times in the past year. When I returned home last month from visiting my gf, I was searched.

I have lived in Thailand for a fair while now and I *always* get pulled up and questioned by immigration when returning to Australia. It irritates me because I'm a government employee, and they were the bastards that sent me here in the first place!

Here is an example. Let's say I do sensitive work and my laptop has an encrypted hard drive to protect the contents. Or even if my laptop requires a password for access. I am not obligated to anyone to provide that password without cause, such as a search warrant. They can turn it on, examine the hardware, scan it, x-ray it, whatever. But they have no rights to the content without showing cause. Period. End of story. If they want to detain me, then so be it but be prepared for the consequences of overzealousness.

I agree. And I think laws that 'force' people to decrypt things will only catch garden variety criminals anyway (eg. MP3 bandits). Who is going to be so stupid to carry encrypted plans for building Weapons of Mass Hysteria through a hostile immigration checkpoint, together with the key?

Maybe I'll put a big close up photo of my arse on the laptop.

[thaigene2]

Yes..well they have a right to protect themsleves and know who's attempting to cross their frontier. Maybe the next step will be to take a DNA sample from your dirty underwear?

Anyone who lives in, or has recently travelled to, the USA will notice how the entire media 'experience' as they like to call everything nowadays, is about 'security' or something to scare you or put you on edge. Just look at TV and all the shows about missing people, UFOs, terrorists, pedophiles, etc, etc, etc..The daily 'news' is also a complete scare tactic - with foreign news notably absent - except when it's about, you guessed it, terrorism, foreign spies and military-rivals (like China).

Gee, if I didn't 'know better' I'd say Americans are being conditioned for something. But for what? An attack on Iran? A pre-planned long generational future of foreign enemies and wars? It really smacks of Orwell's 1984 doesn't it? Over-paranoia - day on day on day. It never stops.

[Shotime]

You're actually correct. Fear is a very old tactic to control the people. A couple of mistakes have, maybe, turned things around. First on the list is the price of gas. I don't care how scared the people are, you fuc_k with their pockets, they will get pissed. In the USA anyway.

[Crushdepth]

The rhetoric about attacking Iran is hot air and chest beating. The resulting increase in oil price would totally torpedo the US economy and they know it. Anyway I digress: There's no doubt that the US government used 9/11 hysteria to push through a whole bunch of privacy-eroding legislation. At the end of the day I don't think they will benefit from it.

[j0hnga1t]

Okay, my last comment in this thread...NO US bashing in it.  Shotime, what I was saying was that Customs and Border Protection have people available near the airport who are training in computer forensics and have the ability to analyze computers.  This is in reference to your comment - I can't believe the security people doing the searches have the brains to conduct such an inspection. It must take forever.  The normal officers at the airport doesn't have the ability nor the equipment to conduct the inspection other than to turn on your camera and look through the pictures...

[britmaveric]

^Small % I presume, the hundreds of times I have been in/out of Yankland - notebook never been searched, nor camera, infact never been searched in anyway full stop. I have to think they have a set profile, been tipped off, or the person in question is acting strange.

Like I said previously, there are encryption programs that its not blatantly obvious if you are that worried about it.

[pampal]

with the exception of a few encryption programs notably PGP, the NSA can decrypt anything they want as they have a law in the US pertaining to backdoors built into encryption schemes that allow the NSA to see anything they want, encryption in the USA is certified by the NSA so guess what, they can see it all, if they want to

[Jingthing]

It is not relevant that most people are never searched. The issue is about our constitutional rights as Americans and how our government has overstepped acceptable boundaries. The article I referred to talks about laptop searches only. I don't know if the writer of that would see camera memory cards as a symptom of the same issue, or not. After all, those cards do not contain financial data, emails, passwords, trade secrets, etc. However, I would assert they are the same issue. What is in your camera could be seen as a visual parallel to your email, which of course should be private. For example, say you have a Thai wife and family and you visit them in Isaan. You take pictures of your Thai relatives at the swimming pool. US customs sees this and some of those relatives appear under age 18: you are a suspect.

Also to emphasize: nobody is questioning the right of authorities at any border to conduct physical searches WITHOUT CAUSE, or even more invasive searches such as laptop scans WHEN THERE IS SPECIFIC CAUSE, in other words, when a specific person is part of an existing investigation based on police evidence.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[huggybear]

Good on the yanks - looking for pedo(s).

Nothing to hide and if I did they wouldnt be able to access it. Notebooks never been searched once in all my travels.

But you don't trample EVERYONE'S rights for the sake of looking for pedo's or "terrorists". Like the article says, 1000's of people have private financial records,international banking info, etc. that should not just be free for the Feds to stop you and look at.

Typical of the current U.S. administartion, just read where they just upheld some wiretapping laws that are truly despicable. Yes, the U.S. right now is a totalitarian machine.........

[Crushdepth]

For example, say you have a Thai wife and family and you visit them in Isaan. You take pictures of your Thai relatives at the swimming pool. US customs sees this and some of those relatives appear under age 18: you are a suspect.

Or you share a laptop with other people at work and one of them downloaded something nasty. Or more likely, they installed some crapware that downloads or links to something *really* nasty. And you have 'imported' it. Yay for you: Ignorance is no excuse, you should have known donkey porn is illegal, yadda yadda.

[Pierrot]

The issue is about our constitutional rights as Americans and how our government has overstepped acceptable boundaries.

That's what I love about you "Americans". "Freedom" "Rights" ... it's just for you and you alone . And I'm lucky as I'm an European and not some "suspicious looking" guy from the middle east or Asia.

So now you have a taste of your own medecine? It's bitter isn't it ?

Btw, what's the relation with Thailand ?

Edited July 13, 2008 by Pierrot

[lomatopo]

Longish thread on this subject…

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Customs-Stop...ps-t160885.html

My comments from that thread…

CBP and ICE can 'secondary' anyone entering the U.S.A. and search their belongings, including cameras and PC's without warrant or probable cause. They can also ask you any questions they choose. I assume there is some profiling, sex/age/countries visited (male, 45-65, Thailand) and even some targeting (watch list, tip), that leads to extensive secondary searches. There are some first-hand reports in several travel-related forums. For some, say carrying confidential business documents, it can get quite tricky.

www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=719265

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=2671

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?Men...ContentID=36317

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/200.../laptopsearches

“Are they looking for porn?”

As it applies to the specific topic under discussion in this thread, yes. Specifically, "...or other article which is obscene or immoral...", which is more or less defined as child pornography.

See 19 U.S.C. § 1305 for additional details.

§ 1305. Immoral articles; importation prohibited

(a) Prohibition of importation

All persons are prohibited from importing into the United States from any foreign country any book, pamphlet, paper, writing, advertisement, circular, print, picture, or drawing containing any matter advocating or urging treason or insurrection against the United States, or forcible resistance to any law of the United States, or containing any threat to take the life of or inflict bodily harm upon any person in the United States, or any obscene book, pamphlet, paper, writing, advertisement, circular, print, picture, drawing, or other representation, figure, or image on or of paper or other material, or any cast, instrument, or other article which is obscene or immoral, or any drug or medicine or any article whatever for causing unlawful abortion, or any lottery ticket, or any printed paper that may be used as a lottery ticket, or any advertisement of any lottery. No such articles whether imported separately or contained in packages with other goods entitled to entry, shall be admitted to entry; and all such articles and, unless it appears to the satisfaction of the appropriate customs officer that the obscene or other prohibited articles contained in the package were inclosed therein without the knowledge or consent of the importer, owner, agent, or consignee, the entire contents of the package in which such articles are contained, shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture as hereinafter provided: Provided, That the drugs hereinbefore mentioned, when imported in bulk and not put up for any of the purposes hereinbefore specified, are excepted from the operation of this subdivision: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Treasury may, in his discretion, admit the so-called classics or books of recognized and established literary or scientific merit, but may, in his discretion, admit such classics or books only when imported for noncommercial purposes: Provided further, That effective January 1, 1993, this section shall not apply to any lottery ticket, printed paper that may be used as a lottery ticket, or advertisement of any lottery, that is printed in Canada for use in connection with a lottery conducted in the United States.

I meant to add that obscene is currently defined as bestiality or child pornography.

Edited July 13, 2008 by lomatopo

[britmaveric]

Paranoia...

[Crushdepth]

George Carlin on airport security.

[lomatopo]

http://www.dhs.gov/journal/leadership/2008...p-searches.html

[Jingthing]

The issue is about our constitutional rights as Americans and how our government has overstepped acceptable boundaries.

That's what I love about you "Americans". "Freedom" "Rights" ... it's just for you and you alone . And I'm lucky as I'm an European and not some "suspicious looking" guy from the middle east or Asia.

So now you have a taste of your own medecine? It's bitter isn't it ?

Btw, what's the relation with Thailand ?

Sorry, this topic is mostly of limited interest to traveling Americans. As a non-American, you can choose to never travel to the USA.

Bitter? Not really. We know we are hated, nothing new, we are used to it.

Relation to Thailand: already mentioned multiple times! BTW, a huge percentage of Thaivisa logins are from the good ole USA.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[Mario2008]

I don't think the legality of the searches are being questioned. Regarding customs everywhere in the world you only have one right, the right to remain silence. What is being questioned is if it is right that the government holds so much power to invade our privacy without cause.

Well, beter wake up. Governments all over the world have that power for many, many years al ready and with laptops and all kind of digital devices we just take more and more private data with us when crossing a border.