Thai Troops Enter Disputed Territory On Thai-cambodian Border

[MrSnrang]

Oh, no. Hopefully, taking Angor Wat from Thai territory and giving it to Cambodia doesn't become an issue as well.

There are more than a few Thais around that still argue that the parts of Malaysia up to Penang were once part of Thailand/Siam, and most of Laos as well...

And at the Cambodian border are many disputed spots that wait to be exploited by the boys from the PAD, and maybe picked up by the Democrats in Parliament. We have years of fun ahead of us...

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. You don't see Mexico's government threatening to take back the west coast, do you?

They just can't accept that they lost some land that if reclaimed, they wouldn't have much use for anyways.

[roygsd]

Referring to a plan by members and supporters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), an anti-government group, to protest at Preah Vihear on Thursday ...

How long are we going to let these people destroy this country?

Hi

For ever, its a domestic matter for the thais to resolve, certainly it is not for expats to seek to interfere

roy gsd

[samran]

Oh, no. Hopefully, taking Angor Wat from Thai territory and giving it to Cambodia doesn't become an issue as well.

There are more than a few Thais around that still argue that the parts of Malaysia up to Penang were once part of Thailand/Siam, and most of Laos as well...

And at the Cambodian border are many disputed spots that wait to be exploited by the boys from the PAD, and maybe picked up by the Democrats in Parliament. We have years of fun ahead of us...

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. You don't see Mexico's government threatening to take back the west coast, do you?

They just can't accept that they lost some land that if reclaimed, they wouldn't have much use for anyways.

of course the leaders of the PAD and the democrats accept it. I doubt they really even care. But for the time being, it is a nice political stick with which to beat the government over the head with.

Admittedly it is very dangerous to play the nationalist card, but does anyone here doubt that if the positions were reveresed it wouldn't be Mr Thaksin himself storming up those steps at the temple to plant the biggest Thai flag he could find???

[Tony Clifton]

Oh, no. Hopefully, taking Angor Wat from Thai territory and giving it to Cambodia doesn't become an issue as well.

There are more than a few Thais around that still argue that the parts of Malaysia up to Penang were once part of Thailand/Siam, and most of Laos as well...

And at the Cambodian border are many disputed spots that wait to be exploited by the boys from the PAD, and maybe picked up by the Democrats in Parliament. We have years of fun ahead of us...

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. You don't see Mexico's government threatening to take back the west coast, do you?

They just can't accept that they lost some land that if reclaimed, they wouldn't have much use for anyways.

They're already jumping the fence at the border in record numbers, claiming it back is so passé.

[sabaijai]

Are you saying the 'Damned' PAD in such a way as to condemn them or is it just a way of talking

I say that because the PAD always had an ultra-nationalist agenda from the beginning. Their main card played in the campaign against TRT and now PPP was the Nation/Religion/Monarchy issue - the lowest common denominator of Thai Nationalism, and always effective.

Read early criticism by Thongchai Winitchakul or Giles Ungpakorn, or recent criticism by Supinya - all very early opponents of TRT/Thaksin, and strong opponents of Samak as well.

This is just the latest stunt of the PAD, the try get to get rid of a lousy, though elected government, on the expense of the stability of the country, and now even threaten the stability of the region by trying to force a war over an almost comical non issue.

This is a very dirty and dangerous game, especially as the whole border is a hornet's nest with many similar sites waiting to be exposed in a similar fashion. Shame on the Democrats for using this issue in parliament and making some short term gains - now they have again proven themselves to be a party that is at least a decade away from being able to govern Thailand. And we will be stuck with PPP/TRT for a long time for lack of alternatives, or another row of military coups.

All thanks to the PAD.

Agree. The PAD should have stuck to the orignal issue that brought them back onto the streets, constitutional revisions.

[sabaijai]

The Thai Side:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Phrea Vihear

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The Cambodian Side:

----------

1 - 4: Associated Press

5 - 6: Reuters

very strange pictures.....

Why "strange" h90?

look quite normal tahaan praan and Cambo regulars to me.

Seems the Cambodian side are quite happy to give access to AP and Reuters up the cliffside or is the Thai press blockade not quite as rigid as they would like to admit?

I was thinking that this could be the next Ban Romklao, but there the media really were blocked from taking pics or reporting on what turned out to be a really nasty little war with chemical weapons used and plenty of body bags (600 by some accounts) sent back to Pitsanoloke under Chavalit's guard. Hopefully, this conflict won't come to that, and nationalistic fervour can be minimised.

Strange.....looks very different than european military...

Different guns on the Thai people (even a AKA if I am not wrong).

The cambodian carry their weapons in a strange way.....look like camping.....

But I don't know about Asian armys, just look strange to me.

I'm pretty certain some of those Thai soldiers aren't normal soldiers but their version of elite Army rangers and special forces. Thailand does have a very competent well trained special forces unit that is regularly involved in operations along the border. They also train a lot with U.S. special forces and navy seals.

The mix of weapons (specially with the AKA 47) looks more like paramilitary/reservists or? Or maybe local reservists as they know the area best??

The black uniforms are Rangers (Thahan Phran, literally 'Hunter Soliders'), always irregularly equipped but said to be very effective in action. But with a chequered past, not unlike the Texas Rangers in America's wild west days.

[Old Man River]

of course the leaders of the PAD and the democrats accept it. I doubt they really even care. But for the time being, it is a nice political stick with which to beat the government over the head with.

Admittedly it is very dangerous to play the nationalist card, but does anyone here doubt that if the positions were reveresed it wouldn't be Mr Thaksin himself storming up those steps at the temple to plant the biggest Thai flag he could find???

The PAD though always was far more nationalist than Thaksin, and the Democrats under Abhisit have proven themselves to be a party that opportunistically jumps at every bandwagon that gives them short term political gain on the expense of their long term future, and catapulting themselves out of the possibility to form a government via elections in the near and mid future.

Sad, really. That way we will be stuck with TRT/PPP - not because they are great, but because the alternatives are even messier.

Well, the Democrats are the opposition party aren't they?.

The Democrats, in their constitutional role as the opposition party, were the ones that brought up the issue of Noppadol illegally signing the communique. This was during the censure debate that they called for. Are you against censure debates as well? Following the Democrats request that the courts look into the signing of the communique, it was ruled by the courts that Noppadol had violated the constitution.

While you may not like where this whole thing is headed, you should be applauding the opposition party for properly performing its role in bringing up illegal activities.

[samran]

of course the leaders of the PAD and the democrats accept it. I doubt they really even care. But for the time being, it is a nice political stick with which to beat the government over the head with.

Admittedly it is very dangerous to play the nationalist card, but does anyone here doubt that if the positions were reveresed it wouldn't be Mr Thaksin himself storming up those steps at the temple to plant the biggest Thai flag he could find???

I very much doubt that.

Thaksin of course used the nationalist card, as every Thai politician does, has to.

But Thaksin was far too aware of the complex relationship, especially considering business, to have risked a war that easily. If you care to remember - Thaksin was heavily criticised by his slow response to the Mae Sai border skirmish between Burma and Thailand.

Whatever Thaksin faults were, and many there were/are, warmongering for reasons of extreme nationalism were not part of it, unless forced into.

The PAD though always was far more nationalist than Thaksin, and the Democrats under Abhisit have proven themselves to be a party that opportunistically jumps at every bandwagon that gives them short term political gain on the expense of their long term future, and catapulting themselves out of the possibility to form a government via elections in the near and mid future.

Sad, really. That way we will be stuck with TRT/PPP - not because they are great, but because the alternatives are even messier.

ah, but then we don't have a fully reversed situation there then do we? Thaksin's business interests in Burma are well known. As are his Cambodian ones. If it wasn't for these things, he'd be draping himself in red white and blue

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that the Dems or the PAD actually are any better. But they do smell when politcal blood is in the water, and the PAD especially, is showing itself to be an excellent gureilla politcal movement....

[sriracha john]

Admittedly it is very dangerous to play the nationalist card, but does anyone here doubt that if the positions were reveresed it wouldn't be Mr Thaksin himself storming up those steps at the temple to plant the biggest Thai flag he could find???

If he didn't have all those billions of Thai taxpayers' money tied up in his new Cambodian casino and Thaksinville, it would be easy to see him playing King of the Hill.

[PeaceBlondie]

But if we enlightened farang see the bloody dangers of extreme nationalism, our great-grandparents or their grandparents did not see it. A hundred million Americans (and millions of Mexican citizens) still think that nationalism is divinely holy, worth sending your sons to die for. Modern Buddhism in Southeast Asia did not prevent the bloodsheds of Vietnam, Cambodia, or even massacres in Southern Thailand. They prefer bloodshed in the name of their country over devotion to their religion, and Westerners have not been civilized enough for the last 1,600 years to lecture them against extreme nationalism. In my arrogant pacifst opinion.

[Pierrot]

How long are we going to let these people destroy this country?

Hi

For ever, its a domestic matter for the thais to resolve, certainly it is not for expats to seek to interfere

roy gsd

Agree, but part of my family is leaving here and I have also some investments in Thailand, so I can't really stay on the side and watch.

[thaigene2]

I thought the Victory Monument in BKK was reference to the Thais who died in WW1. Apparently Thailand was a combatant? Could be wrong..

[Jingthing]

I thought the Victory Monument in BKK was reference to the Thais who died in WW1. Apparently Thailand was a combatant? Could be wrong..

Not exactly,

the Victory Monument is about something, but there was no victory ... from Wiki. Sounds like they were having some kind of Mussolini moment, bless their hyper-nationalist hearts.

The monument was erected in June 1941 to commemorate the Thai victory in the brief war with the French colonial authorities in Indo-China, which resulted in Thailand annexing some territories in western Cambodia and northern and southern Laos. These were among the territories which the Kingdom of Siam had been forced to cede to France in 1893 and 1904, and patriotic Thais considered them rightfully to belong to Thailand.

In fact the fighting between the Thais and the French in December 1940 and January 1941 had been brief and inconclusive. Only 59 Thai troops were killed, and the final territorial settlement was imposed on both parties by Japan, which did not want to see a prolonged war between two regional allies at a time when it was preparing to launch a war of conquest in South East Asia. Thailand's gains were less than it hoped for, although more than the French wished to concede. Nevertheless the Thai regime of Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram decided to celebrate the war as a great victory, and the monument was commissioned, designed and erected within a few months.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[Old Man River]

Well, the Democrats are the opposition party aren't they?.

Yes, they do perform their role as opposition party rather well, stirring the shit, sniping at MPs of the government. Unfortunately they perform their role so well, that the way how they are going - they will stay in the opposition for a long time to come. Unfortunately.

Being masters in political trenchwarfare unfortunately does not mean that such a party is qualified to govern the country. For that they have to prove to the electorate that they can be better than the other parties. And there the Democrats lack.

The Democrats are the oldest political party in Thailand. They are the closest thing to a political party in Thailand that this country has to offer. It is comprised of individuals who believe in democracy for Thailand and don't run and join the party of the month to further their own personal interests. The Democrats do lack in favor in the northeast as they believe in fiscal responsibility in managing the country (which is why they were entrusted with bringing the country out of the 1997 bankruptcy). TRT/PPP believes in quick giveaways for votes (populist policies) and that repayment of all this will be someone else's problem in the future. Seriously, is this what you support?

[sriracha john]

Probably a good thing as he's likely to have blurted out to the Cambodian Defence Minister, "Who did your wife have sinful sex with last night?"

Samak Won't Attend Meeting with Cambodia Himself

Prime Minister and Defence Minister Samak Sundaravej assigned Supreme Commander General Boonsrang Niampradit to attend the General Border Committee meeting on Monday.

- Thailand Outlook

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Normally, the General Border Committee meetings are conducted with the respective Defence Minister from each country.

[dumball]

I just would like to add - the situation is even more explosive because the other country that claims the pile of rocks has also not exactly what one can call a sane government.

oh, well...

It is not realy 'A government' it is the striving of an individual with an obssesed individual thought patern of absolute power over all comers with a large , personal , well trained army behind him to achieve it , the Thais would be well advised to take a few steps to the rear in something of a hurry , this person is no pussy cat with few qualms to prove his point for his country .

[dumball]

Agree. The PAD should have stuck to the orignal issue that brought them back onto the streets, constitutional revisions.

Yet, though, certain revisions of the constitution are necessary, not exactly only as the government wants, but to finally get Thailand a constitution that could prepare the way to a proper democracy.

And that is one of the reasons that the PAD will not get much of a force onto the streets, had to resort now to hiring many of their street supporters, and desperate bids of "national integrity" such as the temple issue.

The PAD has proven itself to all but the most hopeless fanatics to be a maybe even larger part of the problem than the government (difficult as it may seem... ), and not part of the solution to Thailands coming crises.

This whole issue is about much more than 'a few crumbling stones on a hill-top' , this is more to do with the credibility of the Cambodians as a soveriegn nation and thier individual destiny . Pad be warned , pad be wary , you are biting off much more than you may be able to chew , even Thais are against you on this issue .

[bartender100]

Are more people going to die in the name of religion. Sad, I don't think that's what the Lord Buddha had in mind.

[thaigene2]

Many of the Democrats have their hearts in the right places - unfortunately, even these people are cut from the same family guanxi/bureacratic nepotism cronyist class. If you don't like PPP/TRT (which I don't like either, but which are the only ones who ever threw a bone to the 80% of the population - i.e. the poor), then you are stuck with the cronyist, yellow flag waving bloodsucking Democrats. Wow - what a choice!

"Be happy - Be poor" seems to be their message. Meanwhile the rest of their cronys will be spending their "tax savings" at Paragon tomorrow. The craven little pouting daughter brigade spending some of bureaucrat-daddy's ill-gotten booty.

Edited July 18, 2008 by thaigene2

[thaigene2]

All the usual suspects are trying to turn the tables and blame this on PPP/TRT. Funny.

Look, you:

l - o - s - t -- t - h - e -- e - l - e - c - t - i - o - n

Get over it!

Edited July 18, 2008 by thaigene2

[thatguy]

"Not so sure if we're talking about the same thing, but because it's in this thread I believe you refer to the incident when local villagers were trying to stop PAD members to create more trouble.

It was local villagers who live in peace with their neighbours. Why, because you were born on one side of a line, should you hate and kill people people born on the other side? For these local villagers, PAD people are the foreigners, not the Cambodians.

Go to the top of the pageReport Post

+Pierrot may have touched on a real problem here.

I'm told that the villagers around the temple on the cambodian side of the "border" speak Thai and consider themselves Thai, but the Thai government denies them any rights. (move onto real Thai soil, ID etc). The Cambodians are wary of these "Thais" in Cambodia. This leaves them in a quasi stateless limbo similar to the hilltribes in the west who although born in Thailand may be denied schools, healthcare, etc.

does anyone have any insight on the truth?

Petty national bickering may have a real human cost here.

[dumball]

Are more people going to die in the name of religion. Sad, I don't think that's what the Lord Buddha had in mind.

I do not think this has much to do with religion , more about an over zealous concern for patrionism that is very misguided by dark influences at this time , spurred on by mini-brained individuals not realy aware of the possible impending consequencies .

[sabaijai]

Agree. The PAD should have stuck to the orignal issue that brought them back onto the streets, constitutional revisions.

Yet, though, certain revisions of the constitution are necessary, not exactly only as the government wants, but to finally get Thailand a constitution that could prepare the way to a proper democracy.

And that is one of the reasons that the PAD will not get much of a force onto the streets, had to resort now to hiring many of their street supporters, and desperate bids of "national integrity" such as the temple issue.

The PAD has proven itself to all but the most hopeless fanatics to be a maybe even larger part of the problem than the government (difficult as it may seem... ), and not part of the solution to Thailands coming crises.

No doubt many revisions are desirable. Only not the ones that the PPP want, ie, ones designed specifically to bring Thaksin and other TRT leaders back. That was the PAD's original agenda. Too bad they took up every cause that came along, making themselves look foolish in the process.

[sabaijai]

Are more people going to die in the name of religion. Sad, I don't think that's what the Lord Buddha had in mind.

Nothing to do with religion or the temple. Everything to do with the land it sits on.

[dumball]

Are more people going to die in the name of religion. Sad, I don't think that's what the Lord Buddha had in mind.

Nothing to do with religion or the temple. Everything to do with the land it sits on.

Thailand should have joined Cambodia in the quest for naming it a heritage site and thus share in the prosperity it can bring to all manner of both Thai and cambodian people , ancient history should be buried along with the axe that is too often wielded in the name of patrionism .

[Nampeung]

That would be patriotism

[sriracha john]

As the PM is the leader of this country and not PAD, he's the one that sets the tone and determines policy and this is what he says...

That's our territory; Thai PM

In his reply to Cambodian counterpart Hun Sen, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej insisted Friday that the areas where Thai troops are stationing are in Thai soil.

The area of Keo Sikha Kiri Svara Pagoda (known as Preah Vihear) as mentioned in the Cambodian Prime Minister's letter is within the Thai territory, Samak said in his letter.

Hun Sen wrote a letter to Samak Thursday, calling for Thailand to withdraw some 400 troops from 'disputed area' following the military stand off along side with a protest by a group of Thai people over the listing of the Preah Vihear as World Heritage Site.

- The Nation

[jumnien]

No doubt many revisions are desirable. Only not the ones that the PPP want, ie, ones designed specifically to bring Thaksin and other TRT leaders back. That was the PAD's original agenda. Too bad they took up every cause that came along, making themselves look foolish in the process.

I do not think that PPP revisions are only designed to bring Thaksin back. Apart from the obvious admirers of Thaksin and the ones who simply benefit from his money, there are also many people in TRT/PPP who do see Thaksin for what he is, but view him as a somewhat necessary evil.

Supporters of the constitution try to force politicians and political parties to clean up their act - though ignoring that all institutions in Thailand are equally corrupt. At least politicians can be voted out. Judocracy will be staffed by members that nobody can elect.

In this way Thailand has already lost for many years to come some of its most able politicians under the 111 (and several crooks as well, who anyhow can appoint their look nongs). More and more power is taken away from the people, and handed back into the hands of the elites. This will only strengthen a modern incarnation of Sakdina, but won't lead to the process of democratization.

The PAD though is now exposing themselves for what i have viewed them always - a bunch of nationalist extremists, both from the left and the right. As much as Thailand needs political activists - the PAD though are not the ones that try to make a more just society, and never were.

What is now that ridiculous debate on "new politics"? Simply an infantile understanding of politics, nothing else.

The ironies are tremendous, like their attack on Samak because of 6/10/76 - Chamlong, core leader of the PAD was at least as guilty in '76 as Samak was.

From the beginning of their protests their agenda was a mix of rightful criticism of Thaksin, comical exaggerations, and offering as only solutions extreme nationalism, now increasingly alienating many of their former supporters. They have managed to completely split the NGOs, they have split and almost destroyed the already very weak union movement. All the damage they have done to Thailand is far more than Thaksin did, and this is yet the lowest - using a very sensitive issue to force a near war between Thailand and Cambodia, now creating also regional instability.

One Ranger has already lost his leg - thanks to their dirtiest game so far. Lets hope there won't be more blood spilled.

The PAD does seem to be losing what little respect it had amongst non-paid employees of the Sondhi-Chamlong goon squad. Their backs are up against the wall and the fireworks are about to start, IMHO. The PAD have worked so hard to distract the Samak administration; the PAD complain so loudly that the Samak administration is distracted from the business of government. Duh!

[nickynomates]

We are now seeing the nationalistic card played by some key players.

This is just the start.

If it starts to get much worse here you will see this nationalistic sentiment start to creep in against many areas.

Thai will never blame themselves its will always come down to someone else fault anything foreign is the easy target.

I can't see this one going away at the moment and only getting worse for anything non Thai.

[Johpa]

We are now seeing the nationalistic card played by some key players.

This is just the start.

If it starts to get much worse here you will see this nationalistic sentiment start to creep in against many areas.

Thai will never blame themselves its will always come down to someone else fault anything foreign is the easy target.

I can't see this one going away at the moment and only getting worse for anything non Thai.

Crikey, they should just blame their self-imagined woes on the Jews like everyone else on the planet and just move forward with their lives.