Buddhism Dying Out In Japan

[camerata]

In Japan, Buddhism May Be Dying Out

OGA, Japan — The Japanese have long taken an easygoing, buffet-like approach to religion, ringing out the old year at Buddhist temples and welcoming the new year, several hours later, at Shinto shrines. Weddings hew to Shinto rituals or, just as easily, to Christian ones.

When it comes to funerals, though, the Japanese have traditionally been inflexibly Buddhist — so much so that Buddhism in Japan is often called “funeral Buddhism,” a reference to the religion’s former near-monopoly on the elaborate, and lucrative, ceremonies surrounding deaths and memorial services. But that expression also describes a religion that, by appearing to cater more to the needs of the dead than to those of the living, is losing its standing in Japanese society.

Full article at the New York Times.

[jumnien]

Impermanence!

[camerata]

This is not happening in Japan alone but globally. The reason were that 'the younger Generation' felt that religion is a burden to them with much restriction in their lives, so they tend to spare no times in learning.

Right. People don't see the value of religion to themselves so they don't bother with it. But I think to a large extent this increasing secularization has come about as a result of science and, more recently, individualism and consumerism. I suspect the current popularity of Buddhism in the West is probably just a minor blip rather than a major trend.

Personally, I don't think there is any hope at all for Japanese Buddhism. Its decline didn't start after WW2, it started at the beginning of the Edo period (17th century) when the military government forced priests into the role of minor officials who took care of registration of births and were expected to spy on the populace. Donations dried up and temples had to support themselves via income from funerals.

[dutchguest]

I think all the religions will die out, at least in so far as they are institutionalisized, linked with churches, worldly power, hierarchical structures. I think in Buddhism is some content which will stand the tooth of time, in the other religions I see nothing.

If you try to see religions in a world-historic perspective you can see some tendencies:

- in the beginning there was animism, nature was animated, people lived in tribal organisation and their view of the world was restricted to their own tribe and may be a few surrounding tribes. Understanding of the laws of nature was limited (but in some respects much deeper than we have), so they thought nature was ruled by spirits. Their view of the world was monistic, their were no gods or metafysical powers outside the nature. Descent was generally in the female line, which is more natural than descent in the male line which supposes a much complexer social organisation. Property was common, people shared everything. There was a great sexual freedom.

- in the course of history things changed, not synchronous on the whole world: in many places people still live in tribal organisation. In the western world the Greek civilisation is thought to be the beginning. States and the great religions were founded (in a theory, which I believe in, the dowry and the beginning of private property is an important transforming power). People got a broader, more nationalistic, view of the world. The religions were institutionalisized and strongly connected to the worldly power and were almost exclusively a man’s business. Also family and heredity law generally changed in favour of the man. Property became private and the sexual freedom was restricted to secure inheritance within the family. The sexual moral only accepted sex within a marriage, which was supposed to be monogamous and livelong (at least as far as the woman are concerned).

- Now, in the western world (and in a globalizing world western values tend to become global values), there is a tendency that institutionalized religions and autonomous states are losing ground (states to transnational organisations, religions to science, rationality, more individual, spiritual movements), there is again a greater participation of woman in all fields (outside the traditional place in the kitchen), there comes more sexual freedom outside the traditional form (other kind of relations become possible, sex before marriage becomes less a problem, divorce becomes easier etc.). I think we are going towards equality of man and woman, to a greater sexual freedom, and the traditional religions are disappearing, just as the traditional states. We are going towards a world community.

- In Thailand there is still a strong bond between worldly power, traditionally represented by the monarchy, and the spiritual power of institutionalized Buddhism. These can be seen as the unifying force of the state, source of nationalistic feelings. In the west these combined power diminished when democratic forces became stronger and feudalism was ending. State and religion were separated and religion is slowly fading away as an institution.

[camerata]

From what I've read on other forums, most non-Japanese practitioners of Japanese Buddhism thought the article was exaggerated and far too much of a generalization. For example, it didn't mention the most popular sects, Pure Land and Nichiren, or organizations such as Soka Gakkai and Rissho Kosei-kai.

[AwakenOne]

In Japan, Buddhism May Be Dying Out

I think the reply in the Letter to the Editors of the New York Times for this Article was much more informative and more enlightening.

Here is a reply from Buddhist writer, Timothy Harada, who also has a podcast in Japan, called "Peace in the Far East."

Dear editor(s) In regard to the article entitled, "In Japan, Buddhism May Be Dying Out." I must say, as a life long Buddhist from the US, who has now lived in Japan for the past 4 plus years, there could be nothing further from the truth. Buddhism in Japan is defiantly not dieing out. Buddhism is alive and flourishing in Japan! I have been to Soka Gakkai ([sGI] the largest lay Buddhist organization in the world, with millions of members in Japan alone) meetings all over Japan. The article claims, "…interest in Buddhism is declining in urban areas." This has been disproven by the large growth of SGI members in both urban and rural areas, where new community centers are opening all the time. For the 3 years I lived in Sendai (two hours north east of Tokyo by bullet train), the 10th largest city in Japan, I have been to international SGI meetings with groups of people from many countries practicing Buddhism in Japan. I have been asked to speak or perform at 7 different SGI community centers through out Sendai in front of audiences ranging from 100s of people to smaller gathering of just a hand full of people. I have also participated in a number of group, Buddhist, discussion meetings in people's homes all over Sendai. On top of that, I organized a monthly English Buddhist study meeting in Sendai that kept increasing in monthly participation. I also had two opportunities to travel to the Itoh Peninsula (south of Tokyo) to take part in the annual English-speaking, Buddhist 2-day seminars, which takes place every October. Each time I went, I met English-speaking, Buddhist members who live all over Japan, who have had similar experiences I've had in Sendai. I also have been to many large and small SGI Buddhist meetings throughout Tokyo, in Hachioji City, Shinanomachi City and in other areas of metropolitan Tokyo. In all these meetings there was a large participation from not only young and old Japanese people, but from people from all over the world, who are now living in Japan, or who were just visiting Japan at the time. After living in Sendai, I recently moved to Niigata (which is a smaller city than Sendai) but I have seen the same active participation of SGI members in Buddhist meetings in people's homes and at the many community centers I've visited in Niigata City, Nagaoka City, Sanjo City and Shibata City. Elsewhere, in both Sendai and Niigata, I have had the opportunity to speak at gathering of junior high school and high school members of the SGI, where hundreds of young people were gathered to study and practice Buddhism very enthusiastically. I have many SGI friends from around the world, who are now living in even more remote places in Japan than I have lived, like Aomori, who share with me the great participation they are witnessing of young and old Buddhist practitioners in many Buddhist prayer, study and discussion activities in their areas. This article misses the main point that priesthoods in Japan are dieing out due to the incredible growth of Buddhist lay organizations in Japan and this is a very welcome thing to the growth of Buddhism in Japan and to the great evolution of Buddhism in Japan. Buddhism was never meant to be horded by one class or caste of society. The most famous Buddhist teacher in Japanese history, Nichiren (1222-1282), although a monk, didn't have a temple (until his later retirement years), yet he had loyal follows all over Japan, whom he met on his two exiles, first on the Izu Peninsula, and then on the Island of Sado (off of Niigata). He also converted many followers to his form of Buddhism on his journeys from Kamakura, the Shogun capital at the time, to the main seat of Buddhism for many centuries, Mt. Hiei in Kyoto, where he studied in the top Buddhist sutra libraries at Enryaku-ji Temple. Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha of India also had no formal temple for most of his 50 years of teaching Buddhism. He traveled all over what is now India and Nepal on foot. He conducted outdoor seminars, meditation retreats, and question and answer sessions at Eagle Peak and in the bamboo grove, among other places. The institutionalization of Buddhism into professional clergy, who hide away in temples and monasteries and are removed from everyday life, is reminiscent of one branch of Buddhism (Theravada), which has been labeled by its critics, Hinayana (meaning lesser vehicle). Another branch of Buddhism, Mahayana (meaning greater vehicle) is a branch of Buddhism, which believes Buddhism should be an active part of the practitioners' daily lives. In this article, Norimitsu Onishi, states the statistics: "In 1999, 62 percent still held funerals at home or in temples, while 30 percent chose funeral homes, according to the Consumers' Association. But in 2007, the preferences were reversed, with 28 percent selecting funerals at home or in temples, and 61 percent opting for funeral homes." However, he may not be aware of what has contributed to this drastic change. In 1999, the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood, which enjoyed the greatest growth of any sect in Japan after World War II (thanks to its affiliation with the Soka Gakkai) decided to excommunicate the 10 million plus Soka Gakkai members. Since then, those millions of SGI members in Japan and around the world have discovered that having priests be involved in funerals and marriages is a useless formality, which has no basis in the Buddhist sutras. Over the past 10 years, since what we in the SGI now call our "independence day" from the Nichiren Shoshu's form of "funeral Buddhism," the SGI has not seen any decline in participation in our activities. We have seen the same growth that has been occurring since our organization was founded before World War II. If the interviewed chief priest, from the article, Giju Sakamoto of Chorakuji in Akita, went down the street to one of the local Akita SGI Community Centers, he would see that Buddhism is still flourishing in his area as well. In the Lotus Sutra, which is the preeminent text of many sects of Buddhism in Japan, the historical Buddha (Shakyamuni) states, "In the beginning, I made a vow to make all people equal to me, with no distinctions." Priesthoods have been formalities that have existed long before Buddhism came into existence. They are a product of caste and feudalistic societies-a formality that Buddhism should have shaken a long time ago, in order to live up to Shakyamuni's vow. In Buddhism, all people are Buddhas and there should be no distinctions between priests and laity, nor between male of female priests or male or female lay persons (perhaps this is why the first person to attain enlightenment in the Lotus Sutra was a women [the dragon king's daughter]). The growth of lay Buddhist organizations in Japan, along with the development of the printing press, universal literacy, and now the internet has superannuated the need for professional religious people in Buddhism or in any other religion. Historically, the priesthood's role in Buddhism has been to copy, transcribe, and translate Buddhist texts and to interpret them for the illiterate public. This was needed in a feudalistic society, where most people were illiterate and most people worked all day and they only had one day each week (if that) to get involved in religious activities. Devoid of a legitimate purpose by the above-mentioned developments of society, we have seen priesthoods in many religions fall into decadence. The death of "funeral Buddhism" in Japan will hopefully start a wave of the death of priesthoods in all religions, which are no longer needed in our modern world. This will hopefully be the awakening of religions to their true purpose, which is the spiritual enhancement of lay people's everyday lives and the betterment of society. Timothy Harada www.timharada.com Author of the Buddhist Discovery Novel, Myth Shattering, amoung other books on Buddhism, culture and politics.

[phetaroi]

I think all the religions will die out, at least in so far as they are institutionalisized, linked with churches, worldly power, hierarchical structures. I think in Buddhism is some content which will stand the tooth of time, in the other religions I see nothing.

- Now, in the western world (and in a globalizing world western values tend to become global values), there is a tendency that institutionalized religions and autonomous states are losing ground...We are going towards a world community.

- In Thailand there is still a strong bond between worldly power, traditionally represented by the monarchy, and the spiritual power of institutionalized Buddhism. These can be seen as the unifying force of the state, source of nationalistic feelings...State and religion were separated and religion is slowly fading away as an institution.

Some interesting points. I agree that institutionalized religion is struggling at the present, and probably in decline. Church attendance in the US, for example, seems to be waaaaay down. In my home town when I was a kid we had 2 masses every day and 4 on Sunday. Now my home town doesn't even have a priest. The population of the town has stayed rather steady, with perhaps a very slight increase since I lived there. Yet, 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christians.

I don't agree that there is an overall movement toward a world community, in fact I think things are becoming more splintered. I do think people are becoming more independent in their religious thinking.

Your last paragraph about Thailand was interesting. Yesterday I went to that new art museum across from MBK. Overall, quite impressive. As I walked away and thought about the things that I saw, my feeling was that the museum was -- intentionally or not -- trying to identify "Thai-ness". It got me thinking that Thailand is now, more than anytime in recent history, facing a period of substantial transition. It may have been back in '92 when I went to the National Gallery in the old part of the city. Every painting, every statue, every piece of art was somehow directly related to Buddha or Buddhism. Yesterday, not one statue or painting or piece of work was related to Buddhism, although there may have been some Buddhist imagery in the background of photos about the King and Queen. Instead, the displays tended to be about tradition (Khon dancing and costumes), Thailand's place in the world based on the travels of the King and Queen (particularly in the 1970s), and the monarchy. All very well done. All very positive and interesting.

This is not a criticism, but rather an honest question -- was your phrase "the tooth of time" a typo, or is that a saying?

[Xangsamhua]

Mainstream Christianity is moribund in the developed world. Its ethics and social role have been taken over by the welfare state. It's still quite strong in Africa and may take off in China.

Pentecostal Christianity, however, is booming in the developed and developing world, as it adapts more to people's deep-felt need for identity, community and some kind of spirituality. It has moved on from its cult phase and apparently isn't much interested in fundamentalism, as it focuses on the "spirit" and emotional experiences rather than textual orthodoxy. I read recently in an article by an Australian academic that one Pentecostal ministry "Christ for all Nations" in Africa had added 100 million new adherents since 2000! http://www.terraspiritus.com.au/member/sam...id=304&m=23

Buddhism as we know it may fizzle out, too, in some places e.g. Korea, as it did in India and in areas where Islam moved in, but I can't see the teachings dying out. Perhaps they'll become absorbed into some new form of religion, or into secular philosophy and civil society.

In Thailand, who knows? I'm told younger and better educated people will flock to teachers of authentic dhamma, the better educated and more challenging clergy. The Dhammakaya sect is clearly very popular among people who like that kind of mass movement. Santi Asoke seems to me to be healthy and challenging. I guess mainstream Buddhism has done a deal with magic, miracles and the supernatural here to keep people happy and able to have it both ways. I think there are enough checks and balances in Thai Buddhism and enough tolerance of diversity that it won't fade away for a good while.

[dutchguest]

Some interesting points. I agree that institutionalized religion is struggling at the present, and probably in decline. Church attendance in the US, for example, seems to be waaaaay down. In my home town when I was a kid we had 2 masses every day and 4 on Sunday. Now my home town doesn't even have a priest. The population of the town has stayed rather steady, with perhaps a very slight increase since I lived there. Yet, 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christians.

I don't agree that there is an overall movement toward a world community, in fact I think things are becoming more splintered. I do think people are becoming more independent in their religious thinking.

Your last paragraph about Thailand was interesting. Yesterday I went to that new art museum across from MBK. Overall, quite impressive. As I walked away and thought about the things that I saw, my feeling was that the museum was -- intentionally or not -- trying to identify "Thai-ness". It got me thinking that Thailand is now, more than anytime in recent history, facing a period of substantial transition. It may have been back in '92 when I went to the National Gallery in the old part of the city. Every painting, every statue, every piece of art was somehow directly related to Buddha or Buddhism. Yesterday, not one statue or painting or piece of work was related to Buddhism, although there may have been some Buddhist imagery in the background of photos about the King and Queen. Instead, the displays tended to be about tradition (Khon dancing and costumes), Thailand's place in the world based on the travels of the King and Queen (particularly in the 1970s), and the monarchy. All very well done. All very positive and interesting.

This is not a criticism, but rather an honest question -- was your phrase "the tooth of time" a typo, or is that a saying?

- The "tooth of time" is a Dutch saying, which I translated litterally into English, not knowing if it is also an English saying, but I think it speaks for itself.

My opinion has changed a little since I wrote this: I now think that every religion has the same "eternal" essence, only the visible forms differ. Some religions are so much caricatures of what their founders meant that it has obscured my views.

I think the role of present forms of religion, the churches etc. is diminishing, not the role of the founders. Welfare state, social security replace the charity of the churches, public education takes the place of religious schools and indeed also the art becomes less religious and more mundane.

I also think religion becomes more and more an individual case.

[camerata]

In Japan, Buddhism May Be Dying Out

I think the reply in the Letter to the Editors of the New York Times for this Article was much more informative and more enlightening.

Here is a reply from Buddhist writer, Timothy Harada, who also has a podcast in Japan, called "Peace in the Far East."

His answer comes across mostly like SGI propaganda to me. But he does have a point that lay Buddhist organizations are flourishing. Let's face it, since the beginning of the Edo period "traditional" temple-centred Buddhism didn't offer much other than funerals and post-mortem Buddhist names to the public. He also makes a good point that there shouldn't be any priests in Buddhism, but that's a feature of Mahayana Buddhism - especially Japanese Mahayana. The original Buddhism relied on monks, who were renunciants, rather than priests.

[camerata]

Buddhism as we know it may fizzle out, too, in some places e.g. Korea, as it did in India and in areas where Islam moved in,

I can't resist this... Buddhism didn't exactly "fizzle out" in India, it was shoved aside by the resurgence of often militant Vedic Brahmanism and finished off by the wholesale massacre of monks by Turkish Muslims who also burnt the greatest university in the world and all its scriptures.

[Samuian]

This is not happening in Japan alone but globally. The reason were that 'the younger Generation' felt that religion is a burden to them with much restriction in their lives, so they tend to spare no times in learning.

Right. People don't see the value of religion to themselves so they don't bother with it. But I think to a large extent this increasing secularization has come about as a result of science and, more recently, individualism and consumerism. I suspect the current popularity of Buddhism in the West is probably just a minor blip rather than a major trend.

Personally, I don't think there is any hope at all for Japanese Buddhism. Its decline didn't start after WW2, it started at the beginning of the Edo period (17th century) when the military government forced priests into the role of minor officials who took care of registration of births and were expected to spy on the populace. Donations dried up and temples had to support themselves via income from funerals.

Sorry, sir - there is no "value to onesself in Religion" it's a package, a tour guide.

Religion is definitely NOT the "treasure", it's a certain brand name for certain behavior

under certain distinctions.

Religions have caused a lot of trouble to mankind and it's development!

Religion is designed by men to hold power over their fellow brethren!

Religion is simply adding to the delusion of mankind, it's not it's salvation, it's being

successfully sold over Millenia, to tie the people down at will, in it's extremes till in sucessful

use today!

Even if one or the other particular Religion might stand out from others it's NOT the way, it's not

the gate, it's not the treasur to be found!

That is the core teaching of the teaching of the enlightened one, which Buddhism has been founded on!

Yes, as a one other poster worte: "Impermanence" is what are even Religions and their Gods are exposed to....

Who do the lillies in the field, the sparrows in the cedar, the pigeons on the roof, the tiger in the jungle,

the fish in the water, the bats in the caves ..... pray and bow to?

What asana, mudra, mantra or yama, what secret insight they are exercising day by day?

[phetaroi]

Sorry, sir - there is no "value to onesself in Religion" it's a package, a tour guide.

Religion is definitely NOT the "treasure", it's a certain brand name for certain behavior

under certain distinctions.

Religions have caused a lot of trouble to mankind and it's development!

Religion is designed by men to hold power over their fellow brethren!

Religion is simply adding to the delusion of mankind, it's not it's salvation, it's being

successfully sold over Millenia, to tie the people down at will, in it's extremes till in sucessful

use today!

Even if one or the other particular Religion might stand out from others it's NOT the way, it's not

the gate, it's not the treasur to be found!

That is the core teaching of the teaching of the enlightened one, which Buddhism has been founded on!

Yes, as a one other poster worte: "Impermanence" is what are even Religions and their Gods are exposed to....

Who do the lillies in the field, the sparrows in the cedar, the pigeons on the roof, the tiger in the jungle,

the fish in the water, the bats in the caves ..... pray and bow to?

What asana, mudra, mantra or yama, what secret insight they are exercising day by day?

I found your many, many, many cliches confusing.

[Samuian]

Sorry, sir - there is no "value to onesself in Religion" it's a package, a tour guide.

Religion is definitely NOT the "treasure", it's a certain brand name for certain behavior

under certain distinctions.

Religions have caused a lot of trouble to mankind and it's development!

Religion is designed by men to hold power over their fellow brethren!

Religion is simply adding to the delusion of mankind, it's not it's salvation, it's being

successfully sold over Millenia, to tie the people down at will, in it's extremes till in sucessful

use today!

Even if one or the other particular Religion might stand out from others it's NOT the way, it's not

the gate, it's not the treasur to be found!

That is the core teaching of the teaching of the enlightened one, which Buddhism has been founded on!

Yes, as a one other poster worte: "Impermanence" is what are even Religions and their Gods are exposed to....

Who do the lillies in the field, the sparrows in the cedar, the pigeons on the roof, the tiger in the jungle,

the fish in the water, the bats in the caves ..... pray and bow to?

What asana, mudra, mantra or yama, what secret insight they are exercising day by day?

I found your many, many, many cliches confusing.

Sorry, those cliches aren't "mine", nor have I made them up,

they're what they are, but at least you found yourself confused!

breathe deeply and relax...watch the breath, moving in, moving out...

confusion will vanish and clarity will arise!

Ordinary, ignorant worldly people are under the

impression that there is this religion and that religion, and that

these religions are different, so different that they're opposed to

each other. Such people speak of "Christianity," "Islam," "Buddhism,"

"Hinduism," "Sikhism," and so on, and consider these religions to be

different, separate, and incompatible. These people think and speak

according to their personal feelings and thus turn the religions into

enemies. Because of this mentality, there come to exist different

religions which are hostilely opposed to each other.

Those who have penetrated to the essential nature of religion

will regard all religions as being the same. Although they may say

there is Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Islam, or whatever, they will also

say that all religions are inwardly the same. However, those who have

penetrated to the highest understanding of Dhamma will feel that the

thing called "religion" doesn't exist after all. There is no

Buddhism; there is no Christianity; there is no Islam.

-Bikkhu Buddhadasa on "No Religion"-

Source:

If there is essentially no religion - how can it "die" then?

Sorry, if this may incur even more confusion - hope it switches on the lights!

edited to add Quote from Buddhadasa.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Samuian

[Xangsamhua]

Buddhism as we know it may fizzle out, too, in some places e.g. Korea, as it did in India and in areas where Islam moved in,

I can't resist this... Buddhism didn't exactly "fizzle out" in India, it was shoved aside by the resurgence of often militant Vedic Brahmanism and finished off by the wholesale massacre of monks by Turkish Muslims who also burnt the greatest university in the world and all its scriptures.

Geez, I need to do some reading, don't I!

[camerata]

This is not happening in Japan alone but globally. The reason were that 'the younger Generation' felt that religion is a burden to them with much restriction in their lives, so they tend to spare no times in learning.

Right. People don't see the value of religion to themselves so they don't bother with it. But I think to a large extent this increasing secularization has come about as a result of science and, more recently, individualism and consumerism. I suspect the current popularity of Buddhism in the West is probably just a minor blip rather than a major trend.

Personally, I don't think there is any hope at all for Japanese Buddhism. Its decline didn't start after WW2, it started at the beginning of the Edo period (17th century) when the military government forced priests into the role of minor officials who took care of registration of births and were expected to spy on the populace. Donations dried up and temples had to support themselves via income from funerals.

Sorry, sir - there is no "value to onesself in Religion" it's a package, a tour guide.

Religion is definitely NOT the "treasure", it's a certain brand name for certain behavior

under certain distinctions.

I take your point but I was speaking from the perspective of the average guy on the street who is asking "What's in it for me?" about everything - including what is labeled "religion" - without looking into it very deeply. And because of this superficial view of things, he misses what is really of value at the heart of the religion - the core principles and psychology that enhance our lives.

I probably should revise my comment about there being no hope for Japanese Buddhism, since I wasn't really thinking of lay Buddhist organizations when I wrote it.

[camerata]

Geez, I need to do some reading, don't I!

Don't worry, it's all in Warder's Indian Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

Mainstream Christianity is moribund in the developed world. Its ethics and social role have been taken over by the welfare state.

Welfare state & better education.

In many universities Christianity is taught as mythology.

In Thailand, who knows? I'm told younger and better educated people will flock to teachers of authentic dhamma, the better educated and more challenging clergy. I guess mainstream Buddhism has done a deal with magic, miracles and the supernatural here to keep people happy and able to have it both ways. I think there are enough checks and balances in Thai Buddhism and enough tolerance of diversity that it won't fade away for a good while.

Ideally, Buddhism should break away from the offering of religious like services such as funerals, weddings, good luck blessings, magic, miracles & the supernatural, & concentrate exclusively, practicing & teaching of authentic dhamma as taught by the Buddha.

Then I realized the need for funding & food, thus their soul (magic, miracles & the supernatural ) has been sold.

Edited September 25, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

Geez, I need to do some reading, don't I!

Don't worry, it's all in Warder's Indian Buddhism.

Better get off my backside and get that order off to Amazon (this weekend - promise).

[phetaroi]

Samuian...I'm just not clear what YOUR position is.

[phetaroi]

Ideally, Buddhism should break away from the offering of religious like services such as funerals, weddings, good luck blessings, magic, miracles & the supernatural, & concentrate exclusively, practicing & teaching of authentic dhamma as taught by the Buddha.

To make no effort to fulfill the everyday needs of people would surely make it fade away.

[Xangsamhua]

Ideally, Buddhism should break away from the offering of religious like services such as funerals, weddings, good luck blessings, magic, miracles & the supernatural, & concentrate exclusively, practicing & teaching of authentic dhamma as taught by the Buddha.

To make no effort to fulfill the everyday needs of people would surely make it fade away.

Phetaroi, I think Rocky's saying that the authentic dhamma would not suffer from the sangha withdrawing from rites of passage, blessings, magic, etc. But if that happened who would officiate at these ceremonies and minor functions?

I expect that in the Northeast, as in Laos, the mor porn would do it. Weddings and bacis (for good luck, homecomings, reconciliations, farewells, weddings, etc) don't involve the monks at all in Laos (and in Isaan?). The mor porn (who I guess is evolved from the shaman, but is usually just an elder who does these things when required) is a key figure in Lao rites.

I'm not sure if in Central Thailand this kind of functionary still exists. But if he does and if he took on the ritual function (and it's the same for every occasion), the people would be happy and it would take the load off the monks, enabling them to focus on dhamma and be perceived as doing so.

I'm sure if the monks withdrew the people would come up with someone to serve the purpose.

[phetaroi]

Ideally, Buddhism should break away from the offering of religious like services such as funerals, weddings, good luck blessings, magic, miracles & the supernatural, & concentrate exclusively, practicing & teaching of authentic dhamma as taught by the Buddha.

To make no effort to fulfill the everyday needs of people would surely make it fade away.

Phetaroi, I think Rocky's saying that the authentic dhamma would not suffer from the sangha withdrawing from rites of passage, blessings, magic, etc. But if that happened who would officiate at these ceremonies and minor functions?

I expect that in the Northeast, as in Laos, the mor porn would do it. Weddings and bacis (for good luck, homecomings, reconciliations, farewells, weddings, etc) don't involve the monks at all in Laos (and in Isaan?). The mor porn (who I guess is evolved from the shaman, but is usually just an elder who does these things when required) is a key figure in Lao rites.

I'm not sure if in Central Thailand this kind of functionary still exists. But if he does and if he took on the ritual function (and it's the same for every occasion), the people would be happy and it would take the load off the monks, enabling them to focus on dhamma and be perceived as doing so.

I'm sure if the monks withdrew the people would come up with someone to serve the purpose.

I don't see Buddhism as being "for monks". I see it being "for people", and to break a bond between the people and the temple is not advisable in my opinion. Additionally, I visit many temples, and the monks appear to have lots of time on their hands...time enough to wander around Pantip Plaza, for example. There's plenty of time for their personal meditation.

[rockyysdt]

I don't see Buddhism as being "for monks". I see it being "for people", and to break a bond between the people and the temple is not advisable in my opinion. Additionally, I visit many temples, and the monks appear to have lots of time on their hands...time enough to wander around Pantip Plaza, for example. There's plenty of time for their personal meditation.

I've heard it said that it can take 20 - 30 years of dedicated vipassana (mindfulness) practice to get close to attaining the ultimate goal.

I viewed the monkhood as an opportunity to devote oneself to practicing the Buddha's teachings.

I suspect a large percentage of monks aren't making best use of their time.

I can see negative khamma being accumulated through the practice of magic, lucky charms, animism & circus tricks which deviate from authentic Buddhist teaching.

In fact, saddled with the burden of their inherited customs, perhaps many monks might be worse off in terms of available resource than non ordained individuals.

If they focus on their core goal, the result might lead to greater numbers of enlightened ones who could then circulate & facilitate new momentum.

Edited September 25, 2009 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

I don't see Buddhism as being "for monks". I see it being "for people", and to break a bond between the people and the temple is not advisable in my opinion. Additionally, I visit many temples, and the monks appear to have lots of time on their hands...time enough to wander around Pantip Plaza, for example. There's plenty of time for their personal meditation.

I've heard it said that it can take 20 - 30 years of dedicated vipassana (mindfulness) practice to get close to attaining the ultimate goal.

I viewed the monkhood as an opportunity to devote oneself to practicing the Buddha's teachings.

I suspect a large percentage of monks aren't making best use of their time.

I can see negative khamma being accumulated through the practice of magic, lucky charms, animism & circus tricks which deviate from authentic Buddhist teaching.

In fact, saddled with the burden of their inherited customs, perhaps many monks might be worse off in terms of available resource than non ordained individuals.

If they focus on their core goal, the result might lead to greater numbers of enlightened ones who could then circulate & facilitate new momentum.

The Sangha are certainly dependant upon the support of the local community.... and should give back what the people need.... by teaching them the dhamma and being good examples themselves..... not happening very much nowadays on average.

Although it might take many years of Vipassana to reach the ultimate goal and a monks life is ideally suited to that, we laymen can still reach Stream-entry in our more limited time-scale. A more reachable goal for this lifetime.

[rockyysdt]

Although it might take many years of Vipassana to reach the ultimate goal and a monks life is ideally suited to that, we laymen can still reach Stream-entry in our more limited time-scale. A more reachable goal for this lifetime.

Camerata has also indicated this.

Why limit your goal?

Isn't that creating an artificial ceiling for yourself?

[Samuian]

This is not happening in Japan alone but globally. The reason were that 'the younger Generation' felt that religion is a burden to them with much restriction in their lives, so they tend to spare no times in learning.

Right. People don't see the value of religion to themselves so they don't bother with it. But I think to a large extent this increasing secularization has come about as a result of science and, more recently, individualism and consumerism. I suspect the current popularity of Buddhism in the West is probably just a minor blip rather than a major trend.

Personally, I don't think there is any hope at all for Japanese Buddhism. Its decline didn't start after WW2, it started at the beginning of the Edo period (17th century) when the military government forced priests into the role of minor officials who took care of registration of births and were expected to spy on the populace. Donations dried up and temples had to support themselves via income from funerals.

Sorry, sir - there is no "value to onesself in Religion" it's a package, a tour guide.

Religion is definitely NOT the "treasure", it's a certain brand name for certain behavior

under certain distinctions.

I take your point but I was speaking from the perspective of the average guy on the street who is asking "What's in it for me?" about everything - including what is labeled "religion" - without looking into it very deeply. And because of this superficial view of things, he misses what is really of value at the heart of the religion - the core principles and psychology that enhance our lives.

I probably should revise my comment about there being no hope for Japanese Buddhism, since I wasn't really thinking of lay Buddhist organizations when I wrote it.

As the very foundation of my believe now , is that one is not different from each other, concluding that we easily are able to share the same reality and face it as is!

Any more pushing this or that truth isn't bringing anyone any genuine progress!

One may have to move away from the old relics in the attic, the dusty and worn out rags, the fading volumes, look at the kids of today, why move most of them away from Religion, ask them... if they are willing to give an answer many think it's not "cool" anymore, but then tell/show them something about yoga postures, martial arts exercises and they are with it - why?

Not to mention that the practice of today's Buddhism has again resorted to an abundance of rituals!

Try and view how all this, in what it really has developed into - try to look at it from the point the Gautama, the Tathagatha, or the man from Nazareth, yes I am sure even the man from Medina would be in utter shock what people have made out of their teachings - look at it how the enlightened beings would look at the scenes one can observe in most temples, churches, mosques of today....

Just everyone with a wee bit of a critical eye, have a good look at the monk hood, the doctrine, the the behavior,

could this REALLY be it?

What could Religion, a service, surrender to the lord really mean?

Would it be all about how much artefacts and golden tiles are stored in the house or grounds of worship - hasn't it gone all way beyond it's primary target.... isn't it about liberation?

Of whom?

Truth's there are by now so many - that everyone of us could start a whole sale business, but still won't get

anyone enlightened - why is this so?

my 2 Cent's for the weekend...and sorry, Vipassana, Meditation, realization of the oneness, emptiness,

the brahman, that what is beyond, name it - doesn't need no temple, no certain colored robes no code of conduct only a strong will which must have been succeeded by the wish to "to do something', "to make a change" with some it may start with loneliness, boredom, the wish to get fit, healthy and some might experience something else... which might be the cause for further changes, for a willingness to study, to understand, to go further, to explore, to learn... what this wonderful gift of life really is all about - but hence this "desire", question hasn't been felt, nor has it risen.... not a 1000 Elephants will be able to make the tiniest move......

Edited September 26, 2009 by Samuian

[dutchguest]

Ordinary, ignorant worldly people are under the

impression that there is this religion and that religion, and that

these religions are different, so different that they're opposed to

each other. Such people speak of "Christianity," "Islam," "Buddhism,"

"Hinduism," "Sikhism," and so on, and consider these religions to be

different, separate, and incompatible. These people think and speak

according to their personal feelings and thus turn the religions into

enemies. Because of this mentality, there come to exist different

religions which are hostilely opposed to each other.

Those who have penetrated to the essential nature of religion

will regard all religions as being the same. Although they may say

there is Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Islam, or whatever, they will also

say that all religions are inwardly the same. However, those who have

penetrated to the highest understanding of Dhamma will feel that the

thing called "religion" doesn't exist after all. There is no

Buddhism; there is no Christianity; there is no Islam.

-Bikkhu Buddhadasa on "No Religion"-

Source:

I have read the link and I think Bikkhu Buddhadasa expresses my view better then I could have done it myself - if that is possible.

He also gives a -for me- acceptable interpretation of "rebird": it all takes place within the (fysical) lifetime of a person, life and dead concern not the fysical but the mental side. Being reborn as a higher or lower being is a direct consequence of your behaviour in this lifetime.

Being mentally dead means being empty of everything society has learned, of every conditioning. It is in a way the universal, eternal side of the human consciousness. There is no content, no "I", nothing that can dy or be reborn, that can be sick or healthy. It is a state of mind beyond dualism.

In the words of Bhikku Bhudhadasa:

The words "birth" and "death" require the same discrimination

regarding language. In people language, the word "birth" means to be

born from a mother's womb. In Dhamma language, however, the word

"birth" means some form of attachment is born. This kind of birth

happens every time we allow the arising of a thought or feeling which

involves grasping and clinging to something as "I" or "mine," such as,

"I am," "I have," "I think," and "I do." This is the birth of the "I"

or the ego.

For example, think like a criminal and one is instantly born

as a criminal. A few moments later those thoughts disappear, one

thinks like a normal human being again and is born as a human being

once more. If a few moments later one has foolish thoughts, right

then one is born as a fool. If one then thinks in an increasingly

foolish and dull manner, one will be born as an animal immediately.

Whenever an attachment is felt intensely--when it burns inside

one with the heat of fire--one is born as a demon in hel_l.

Whenever one is so hungry and thirsty that one could never be

satiated, one is born as an insatiably hungry ghost. When one is

overly cautious and timid without reason, one is born a cowardly

titan.(*) Thus, in a single day one can be born any number of times

in many different forms, since a birth takes place each and every time

there arises any form of attachment to the idea of being something.

Each conception of "I am," "I was," or "I will" is simultaneously

a birth. This is the meaning of "birth" in Dhamma language.

Therefore, whenever one encounters the word "birth," one must be very

careful to understand its meaning in each particular context.

[bankei]

It is interesting to note that there are no monks in Japan and haven't been any for hundreds of years. ie no Bhikkhu or Bhikshu fully ordains according to vinaya. It seems the die out started as early as the founding of the Tendai sect, around 8th century from memory. Saicho and his followers wanted to do away with vinaya ordination which was control by powerful temples in Nara. So they introduced ordination solely by taking the Bodhisattva precepts.

These days the "monks" are actually priests who are usually married and pass their temple down to their sons.

Soka Gakkai is a major "old new religion", a break away of the Nichiren sect - but their teachings are that you can be reborn in the pure land by reciting the name of a book. Namyo Hoorengekyou - hail the Lotus Sutra. Far removed from the teachings of the BUddha.

[AwakenOne]

In Japan, Buddhism May Be Dying Out

I think the reply in the Letter to the Editors of the New York Times for this Article was much more informative and more enlightening.

Here is a reply from Buddhist writer, Timothy Harada, who also has a podcast in Japan, called "Peace in the Far East."

His answer comes across mostly like SGI propaganda to me. But he does have a point that lay Buddhist organizations are flourishing. Let's face it, since the beginning of the Edo period "traditional" temple-centred Buddhism didn't offer much other than funerals and post-mortem Buddhist names to the public. He also makes a good point that there shouldn't be any priests in Buddhism, but that's a feature of Mahayana Buddhism - especially Japanese Mahayana. The original Buddhism relied on monks, who were renunciants, rather than priests.

How a person's personal experience can be called "propaganda" I don't know, but I think that is just the knee jerk reaction often written by non-SGI buddhists, to anyone sharing their personal experience of the SGI, unless in the rare case it's negative experience. Originally Buddhism was not just monks. In the Sangha of the historical Buddha (Shakyamuni, Gautama), were about as many lay male and female members as their were female and male clergy (call them nuns, priest, monks or whatever nomenclature you want to call them) but they were very active in everyday life in their communities and they didn't hide away in monasteries or temples. Read Buddhism the First Millennium by Daisaku Ikeda. It's a great book whether your SGI or not and it is used in many university classes.