Cost Of University Education

[laphroaig]

I am a firm believer that helping those with less money than myself (hypothetically speaking, thai woman with 9 year old son) is not a case of throwing money at them. A consideration may be to assist or pay for the sons University education in an effort to give him the best opportunity available and ulitmately get away from the generation after generation of Issan farming routine.

I realise there are many options, courses and career paths to follow but is there anyone who can give an indication as to the likely costs of supporting someone through a University qualification course that may set them up for a 'career'. What are the pitfalls of such an action for a 'sponsor' not present in Thailand? What do they need to qualify for the University course in the first place by way of schooling examination passes etc.

Thanks

Edited July 15, 2008 by Tonykiwi

[AFKAFSinLOS]

He needs to have completed Matayhom 6. That's up to 18-ish, similar to Baccalaureat, A-Level, Sixth Form etc depending on where you come from.

As an indication tuition fees range from around THB 3,000 a year at somewhere like Rahmkamheng as a govt university, to THB tens of thousand per term at the top private universities like ABAC - say THB 100k ball park per year for a BA. Obviously depends on the course. Then there's books (photocopies are common and not expensive), living expenses etc.

Nice intentions and nice thoughts... it can and does work for some people...and to you it needn't be a lot of money, but could give someone at least a chance. There are some successes out there...

On the other hand to throw in a few negatives, a degree doesn't guarantee very much here... Some people just throw away the money on other things, or their family does it on their behalf. Social structure of society often means that if you're from Issaan it doesn't matter about your education you're not going to be allowed to go anywhere anyway in terms of career, and you'll always be lower down the ladder until your next life etc etc You have to remember Thailand is not a meritocracy... Although you might like him to have the best and send him somewhere like ABAC and think it is worth paying more, you have to bear in mind many of the students there would look down on him for being poor, and being there from a farang sponsor etc. Sad but true...

Edited July 15, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[samran]

He needs to have completed Matayhom 6. That's up to 18-ish, similar to Baccalaureat, A-Level, Sixth Form etc depending on where you come from.

As an indication tuition fees range from around THB 3,000 a year at somewhere like Rahmkamheng as a govt university, to THB tens of thousand per term at the top private universities like ABAC - say THB 100k ball park per year for a BA. Obviously depends on the course. Then there's books (photocopies are common and not expensive), living expenses etc.

Nice intentions and nice thoughts... it can and does work for some people...and to you it needn't be a lot of money, but could give someone at least a chance. There are some successes out there...

Yes there are.....

The Thai goverment does it all the time for civil servants to go study overseas..quite a fair chunk from humble backgrounds (I was once asked by a guy going to study Law in the UK on full government scholarship whether they had houses with stilts to keep chickens under...I kid you not).

I also know that the CFO of one of Thailands biggest publically listed companies with a market cap of $4.0billion is a female Thai muslim who started out as a phone receptionist for the company 30 years ago....and she started out with a simple accounting degree from a not so crash hot university.

[poshthai]

Nepotism is the norm here so i fear that the little guy would get loads of hassle from the more upyourass family children.However why not try to get the little fella into a private school away from the upcountry poor schools so he has a chance.I admire you for this and wish that a few on here would do the same instead of boasting how much they need to live.Sometimes i still think i am listening to thick essex guys and gals on here.Part of my budget is not spent on me, for the ones who will try to have a dig.

[samran]

Nepotism is the norm here so i fear that the little guy would get loads of hassle from the more upyourass family children.However why not try to get the little fella into a private school away from the upcountry poor schools so he has a chance.I admire you for this and wish that a few on here would do the same instead of boasting how much they need to live.Sometimes i still think i am listening to thick essex guys and gals on here.Part of my budget is not spent on me, for the ones who will try to have a dig.

no doubt nepotism is big here...but I'm an optomist and have seen enough people with the right educational background (+ that bit of 'spark') do quite well for themselves too.

[JOHN2]

He needs to have completed Matayhom 6. That's up to 18-ish, similar to Baccalaureat, A-Level, Sixth Form etc depending on where you come from.

As an indication tuition fees range from around THB 3,000 a year at somewhere like Rahmkamheng as a govt university, to THB tens of thousand per term at the top private universities like ABAC - say THB 100k ball park per year for a BA. Obviously depends on the course. Then there's books (photocopies are common and not expensive), living expenses etc.

Nice intentions and nice thoughts... it can and does work for some people...and to you it needn't be a lot of money, but could give someone at least a chance. There are some successes out there...

On the other hand to throw in a few negatives, a degree doesn't guarantee very much here... Some people just throw away the money on other things, or their family does it on their behalf. Social structure of society often means that if you're from Issaan it doesn't matter about your education you're not going to be allowed to go anywhere anyway in terms of career, and you'll always be lower down the ladder until your next life etc etc You have to remember Thailand is not a meritocracy... Although you might like him to have the best and send him somewhere like ABAC and think it is worth paying more, you have to bear in mind many of the students there would look down on him for being poor, and being there from a farang sponsor etc. Sad but true...

Mate,your last paragraph is bang on the money,you can take the kid out of isaan etc...

A friend told me that a degree here is NOT recognised worlwide (no idea if that is true or not?) if they really want to get ahead in the world it is better for them to study overseas and at the same time broaden their minds too.

[Old Man River]

He needs to have completed Matayhom 6. That's up to 18-ish, similar to Baccalaureat, A-Level, Sixth Form etc depending on where you come from.

As an indication tuition fees range from around THB 3,000 a year at somewhere like Rahmkamheng as a govt university, to THB tens of thousand per term at the top private universities like ABAC - say THB 100k ball park per year for a BA. Obviously depends on the course. Then there's books (photocopies are common and not expensive), living expenses etc.

Nice intentions and nice thoughts... it can and does work for some people...and to you it needn't be a lot of money, but could give someone at least a chance. There are some successes out there...

Yes there are.....

The Thai goverment does it all the time for civil servants to go study overseas..quite a fair chunk from humble backgrounds (I was once asked by a guy going to study Law in the UK on full government scholarship whether they had houses with stilts to keep chickens under...I kid you not).

I also know that the CFO of one of Thailands biggest publically listed companies with a market cap of $4.0billion is a female Thai muslim who started out as a phone receptionist for the company 30 years ago....and she started out with a simple accounting degree from a not so crash hot university.

Good example. There are success stories like this all over the country. In the "old" days going to the right university was important. That has changed, big time.

[steveromagnino]

Some people would love to believe in the rampant racism etc, but there are a ton of successful guys and women from Isaan doing just fine with degrees from Ram U etc. Newin Chidchob is not the only one 55555

The real wealth generator is becoming an entrepreneur, not some manoot ngern duan so the most important think is to generate that ability to want to improve oneself.

Just paying for a degree isn't neccessarily going to help that since obviously he could borrow to do all the things you are describing.

If he is smart/clever/hard working he can go to university etc himself on scholarship or student loan; the tough thing though is he is being surrounded most likely by people devoid of education and ambition.

I'd say more important is to get him into a decent school system/get him tutoring etc at this age; by the time he reaches 18, if he isn't eligible to get into say Khon Kaen U (best U in Isaan) then it is probably too late to develop much intellect. And besides there is every chance he will revert to being part of his family and want to be a rice farmer - there is nothing wrong with being a farmer!

Edited July 15, 2008 by steveromagnino

[jbowman1993]

A friend told me that a degree here is NOT recognised worlwide (no idea if that is true or not?) if they really want to get ahead in the world it is better for them to study overseas and at the same time broaden their minds too.

Its not. They are.

[JOHN2]

A friend told me that a degree here is NOT recognised worlwide (no idea if that is true or not?) if they really want to get ahead in the world it is better for them to study overseas and at the same time broaden their minds too.

Its not. They are.

So getting a degree here is just as good as obtaining a degree in a civilised country like the UK or the US for example?

If that is true i wonder why so many daddys little rich boys/girls go overseas?

Still,it's good to know that thais have the same recognised qualifications than their western counterparts.

[Mario2008]

Recognized is not the same as appreciated. Degrees of some universities open more doors than degrees from other universities.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mario2008

[AFKAFSinLOS]

Some people would love to believe in the rampant racism etc, but there are a ton of successful guys and women from Isaan doing just fine with degrees from Ram U etc. Newin Chidchob is not the only one 55555

I'd actually like to believe there wasn't rampant racism... Unfortunately there is. Sure there are always exceptions, but in all the companies I've ever worked I don't recall ever seeing a Chinese maid in Thailand... As for board level management in sizeable companies in Thailand, there are a few exceptions, but not many from Isaan.

Taking inequality a step further, Sakdina type principles are very much alive and well in Thailand... There's a system and most people know their place. A few do have the courage to stand out, but it's a minority...Although I'd like to hope one day the minority becomes the majority on this subject...that's where the future lies and its largely up to Thais to change it...

General western thinking: Everyone is (should be) equal. General Thai thinking: everyone is not equal and further no two people are equal, there is always a pi and a nong... If one group starts with 1+1=2, and another starts with 1+1=something else. No wonder the overlapping maths goes wrong sometimes...

Hence people like OP do have a chance to make a difference and help give chances. Just the odds are stacked against them. Proportionally very few Thais consider this type of thing, really helping someone else who is not family and wanting nothing in return except to see someone else do well... yes i Know, there are exceptions though...

[laphroaig]

Thanks heaps for the input and advice, and particularly for the sincerity and tone of the replies. It has given me a lot to think about but certainly clarified a lot. Some comments of my own now.

• I did not intend to belittle rice farmers and if that is their wish then I have nothing but total respect for them and their chosen culture, way of life. My desire to help is only driven by the feedback received for the present generation who are working very hard, for little return, and constantly struggling to make ends meet. I hoped to offer some opportunity to end the cycle for at least one person.
  
• In my initial thoughts, I had not given sufficient consideration to what would drive the boy to want to do this. Thanks for alerting me. It seems the biggest driver is his mindset, and of course that of those around him so maybe some discussion with his mother would start to paint a different picture. I realise that maybe Thai culture is more short term vision than long term vision so we would have to take that into consideration.
  
• I accept and understand it is not simply a cost of funding, however believe that this would make the path much easier. I was thinking of a trust fund of some sort, with clear defined terms for use of the money.
  
• The private school idea for the present time is well worth exploring, so thank you again for this advice.Getting into the right mindset at 9 could set a far better platform for later (assuming he has the goods too.) If i understand correctly, the importance of this schooling is threefold. Firstly, to mix with others with a similar future goal in mind and perhaps remove the stigma of being poor issan guy later when it will count, secondly, to gain a higher level of education aimed at those who will move on to University. and lastly, to build his character beyond the cultural person he has become in the first 9 years of his life. The family home is close to Ban Phai, Khon Kaen so I can start some rsearch.
  

The greatest message to me is to get confirmation his own desire to progress well in education and subsequent career, and furthermore see evidence of family support for this. Without this, no amount of support and assistance from anyone else would be of benefit. It is comforting to know that many from the same kind of background have made successes in life. This could be harder than I first thought, but what good is life without a challenge

Thanks again

(By the way Poshthai, I am from Essex , ha ha

Edited July 15, 2008 by Tonykiwi

[steveromagnino]

I'd actually like to believe there wasn't rampant racism... Unfortunately there is. Sure there are always exceptions, but in all the companies I've ever worked I don't recall ever seeing a Chinese maid in Thailand... As for board level management in sizeable companies in Thailand, there are a few exceptions, but not many from Isaan.

Hence people like OP do have a chance to make a difference and help give chances. Just the odds are stacked against them. Proportionally very few Thais consider this type of thing, really helping someone else who is not family and wanting nothing in return except to see someone else do well... yes i Know, there are exceptions though...

Entire families like the Bunnag clan are not Thai Chinese; there are some board level mgt from Isaan, but reality is that the poorest people with the least education are the least likely to end up in board level positions.... if we were to apply that logic then we would have to say every country and every business centre around the world is 'racist'!

It isn't racism that causes it, it is poverty and the resultant lack of education and opportunities stemming thereafter. And anyway, we are all Thai, so I guess I think perhaps 'discrimination' might be a better word. Incidentally, you don't see many Chinese maids for the same reason that you don't see many Chinese in jail in New Zeaand vs. Maori. For one, there are fewer Chinese in THailand than people from Isaan; for the other....most Chinese migrants were self selected as self starters and motivated; something you will certainly struggle to find in much of Isaan (and I say that coming from a family at least partly based in Isaan).

As for the idea that very few Thais consider this type of thing..... I respectfully disagree. On the contrary I think the reality that many many Thai companies makes trips, almost every Thai university makes trips with the individuals on the trip donating and contributing to rural communities etc personally every year would suggest quite the opposite.

If you mean should a Thai man start paying for the well being of a woman's family that isn't his wife and has a child, then I think you might also be surprised how many are willing to do so :-) perhaps with similar circumstances to the OP, and in some cases, as a 'Pee Liang'

Incidentally, with regards to family, the World Bank noted that the effects of the Asian Crisis at least in Thailand were somewhat mitigated by the willingness of the family network to assist and help. In this family's case, sounds like they are all too engrained in the way they live life now to change.

The single worst thing is to provide a few gifts, giveaways and not follow through; better to do nothing than to give some crumbs and superficial encouragement which lets the family sit back and relax now; the thing Isaan people need, probably more than anything else, is a massive dose of motivation to be HUNGRY for self improvement. Sadly, that will never happen with the current government structure; in fact the reverse has occured over the last 5 years.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

I'd actually like to believe there wasn't rampant racism... Unfortunately there is. Sure there are always exceptions, but in all the companies I've ever worked I don't recall ever seeing a Chinese maid in Thailand... As for board level management in sizeable companies in Thailand, there are a few exceptions, but not many from Isaan.

Hence people like OP do have a chance to make a difference and help give chances. Just the odds are stacked against them. Proportionally very few Thais consider this type of thing, really helping someone else who is not family and wanting nothing in return except to see someone else do well... yes i Know, there are exceptions though...

Entire families like the Bunnag clan are not Thai Chinese; there are some board level mgt from Isaan, but reality is that the poorest people with the least education are the least likely to end up in board level positions.... if we were to apply that logic then we would have to say every country and every business centre around the world is 'racist'!

It isn't racism that causes it, it is poverty and the resultant lack of education and opportunities stemming thereafter. And anyway, we are all Thai, so I guess I think perhaps 'discrimination' might be a better word. Incidentally, you don't see many Chinese maids for the same reason that you don't see many Chinese in jail in New Zeaand vs. Maori. For one, there are fewer Chinese in THailand than people from Isaan; for the other....most Chinese migrants were self selected as self starters and motivated; something you will certainly struggle to find in much of Isaan (and I say that coming from a family at least partly based in Isaan).

Steve

The choice of the word racist was originally yours not mine. I'm just telling it the way I see it after many years here and elsewhere. Discrimination and racism go hand in hand. While I like many things about Thailand, I am not a fan of the prevalence of these two.

It's a little bit naive to say its all down to poverty and education. The systems in Thailand are often designed to serve a privelege few (of which the Chinese aree one element but not the only one), and perpetuate that same poverty and lack of education to the advantage of the priveleged minority. You've got to ask, where that poverty and lack of education comes from in the first place, and why does it perpetuate here, unlike countries elsewhere.

And no the same logic does not apply to developed countries to the same extent. Other countries have equal opportunties in practice as well as simply in name. Perhaps the most visible example is recruitment and the adds you see.

Thailand has some wonderful things about it. But no point kidding yourself and living with the self denial. It's a developing country that has a long way to go in terms of equality, wealth distribution, discrimination, racism, skin colour etc etc. These issues also still exist in so called developed countries like US/UK. The difference is probably about two generations in thinking... The attitudes of Thais remind me of my granparents on many issues. Some of that is positive, but some of it I'd have to admit, I'd cringe at my grandparents attitudes to some things...

Back to OP. Some very good intentions... go for it. But don't be disappointed if things don't work out as expected... Sometimes they do, often they don't... you might experience a few things along the way that will challenge why you bothered and have you done the right thing.

Small example: On arrival, my heart and gut instinct told me to give money to the poor disabled, uneducated and impverished beggar on the street. So you do. You then later learn there are people behind this who deliberately maim beggars so they can make money from them. You're then left with the dilemma of do I give money and try to help; or do I walk on by because if I do give money I'm perpetuating the circles... I can honestly say I never encountered this personally where I was brought up, nor would I even dream of it... Similar may happen "back home" but in Thailand it's much more prevalent.

So while the intentions are honourable, be careful you're not creating your own Frankstein or Pygmallion, because at the end of the day some of the attidues here belong to similar eras...

... the thing Isaan people need, probably more than anything else, is a massive dose of motivation to be HUNGRY for self improvement. Sadly, that will never happen with the current government structure; in fact the reverse has occured over the last 5 years.

Totallly agree with this... The irony when applied to OP's situation is that, if it his motivation and not their motivation that sets the ball rolling then is he simply sticking plasters on a much bigger issue. You've got to wonder sometimes whether in the long term it might be better to stay out of it, let the suffering continue, so there might just be the ®evolution there needs to be...

A second irony is that this can be another reason why foreigners are sometimes not wanted here.. they upset the balance and "natural" systems with their good intentions of things that Thais think they don't understand...

Edited July 16, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[chiangmaibruce]

I just wanted to comment on the statement made earlier that Thai uni degrees are not recognised elsewhere. The same comment was also made in a recent Chiang Mai thread.

I don't know the process for other countries but I can relay the process in Australia, as my wife went through it a while back. This process is one of evaluating overseas qualifications within the context of the Australian system of qualifications.

In Australia the applicant has the choice to go through a relevant federal agency or the relevant state agency. The application fee for the fed agency is reasonably high unless the applicant already has been granted permanent residency. The state route was either free or only a nominal cost for someone on a spouse visa - even if no PR yet.

The applicant provides details of their Thai qualification and transcript and at some stage has an interview. Basically the agency has a huge database of overseas unis and their courses, and at the end of the evaluating process they issue a letter stating the equivalent Australian level of qualification. For example my wife had a degree in business admin (accounting) from a chiang mai uni. The evaluation process made the finding that this was in fact equivalent to an Australian uni degree. With this letter/certificate the applicant is then in a better position to apply for jobs - the potential employer has at least some guide as to what the piece of paper with Thai writing on it means.

Does this mean that person with the Thai qualification has the same chance of getting a job as someone with a degree from melbourne university? Quite possibly not. As someone stated earlier, there is a difference between being recognised and being appreciated.

Someone asked, if Thai degrees are recognised why do Thais travel overseas for degrees. Various possible reasons including:

1. One reason is pure snob value when applying for positions back in Thailand, it gives them a definite advantage I am told.

2. Better quality of instruction + better appreciated degree means better chance of getting a job outside Thailand

3. It is sometimes a backdoor approach to later getting permanent residency in the country in which they study.

4. Some Thais get good scholarships from the overseas uni.

etc

[steveromagnino]

1. One reason is pure snob value when applying for positions back in Thailand, it gives them a definite advantage I am told.

2. Better quality of instruction + better appreciated degree means better chance of getting a job outside Thailand

3. It is sometimes a backdoor approach to later getting permanent residency in the country in which they study.

4. Some Thais get good scholarships from the overseas uni.

etc

plus this major three IMHO;

5. smart people overseas degree usually means english proficiency and often better quality education (particularly at post grad level) which gets them a better job when they return e.g. Oxford, Harvard, Yale, SMU

6. specialist people overseas degree is more relevant e.g. MIT for environmental engineering for when they return

7. too stupid to get into a good Thai university; overseas unversities are happy to accept the entries and take the cash e.g. most universities worldwide

Most of the students at the upper levels tend to drift back towards Thailand I would say e.g. almost all the medical profession seem to have studied at least some of their time abroad.

As for recognised university degrees, most (I would guess almost all) countries recognise these ones, the rest are less clear:

- Chaing Mai

- Chula

- Thammasaht

- Srinakarin

- Mahidol

- Khon Kaen

- ABAC

- Silapakorn (arts/architecture)

Somewhere like RBAC or Turakij Bundit is a less likely to be recognised; although that said my cousin used his bachelors from Piyab to get into some fancy Sydney university, then got his masters and then got his PR that way. Will hang out there a while longer before returning I think....almost all the guys in NZ I studied with have returned already.(some after 10 years but eventually).

[drk]

May I humbly suggest India.

We do get lots of students from thailand, right from primary education to higher studies.

And the trade off between the price you pay and the quality of education you get in private schools and colleges/Universities is probably best anywhere.

Another advantage is English.

40 years ago, way back in my medical college days, we had students form malasia, indonesia, iran, tanzania, mauratius, all my class fellows. The standard has only gone up ever since.

Currently i am a foster father to two lovely girls ( their parents and grand parents are of indian origin but thai citizens ) stydying here in boarding school in their Xth standard class.

[egg6447]

The real wealth generator is becoming an entrepreneur, not some manoot ngern duan so the most important think is to generate that ability to want to improve oneself.

Just paying for a degree isn't neccessarily going to help that since obviously he could borrow to do all the things you are describing.

If he is smart/clever/hard working he can go to university etc himself on scholarship or student loan; the tough thing though is he is being surrounded most likely by people devoid of education and ambition.

I'd say more important is to get him into a decent school system/get him tutoring etc at this age; by the time he reaches 18, if he isn't eligible to get into say Khon Kaen U (best U in Isaan) then it is probably too late to develop much intellect. And besides there is every chance he will revert to being part of his family and want to be a rice farmer - there is nothing wrong with being a farmer!

i ve no idea how much money the op intends to throw at this boy. without some of the above he,ll get nowhere. heres another idea. get a thai english teacher to teach the whole village extra lessons . as i do . you will see the potential coming through, maybe not. we/i have one good student out of 13. only one boy out of the village is interested, fortunately hes not very bright, but man does that kid try, hes probably the slowest in the class. the one girl that shows promise knows she wants to be a teacher, well it beats looking after buffalo. the good thing is she is thinking of the future, ask around and thats a rarity in its self. haveing singled her out by natural selection i can push her on to uni. maybe. i cant but wonder how much desire is linked to genes, for sure some, some peer pressure of course. i often contemplate the peasant stock syndrome, even peasants turn out geniuses, so maybe we are all equal after all , just different choices/chances .i do believe entrepreneurial tendencies are genetic but you still need other qualifications to go with it.

[KhaoNiaw]

Someone asked, if Thai degrees are recognised why do Thais travel overseas for degrees.

A lot go overseas to do a master's after doing their bachelor degree in Thailand. So, first degrees from many Thai universities are recognized well enough by western universities. Of course, most wouldn't get into a top university (just like students from anywhere else), but I know Thai students from mid-level Thai universities who've gone on to do well enough at mid-level universities in the States and the UK.