How Do You Make A Move On A Guy?

[kat]

As a follow up to the emotions/response thread, I'm interested in how you demonstrate or conveyed attraction to your Thai males. Were you passively or pro-actively flirtatious and let him come to you, or did your female instincts propel you to make the first move? Did this differ from your usual modes of attraction with Western men? If so, why? Tell us all about it. Do you think Thai males or men in general really like it when women make the first move, or is that just more propaganda?

I am not really asking about all the guys that came onto you, but rather how attraction unfolded or was consummated with the guy of YOUR choice - big difference, which I'm sure most women will immediately understand.

As for myself, I tend to wait or appear "passive" because I am disinterested or unsure, until there is a reason to pounce, and then I go right for what I want. In contrast to other features of Thai culture, I found that the direct approach worked much better in initiating with Thai men than the indirect approach, and not necessarily only because of language. I tend to be the same way with Western men, but both approaches work fine, possibly because we understand the same subtle cues.

What say you?

[Boo]

Gawd Kat, it was so long ago since I last practiced my moves I can hardly recall

But lets see, the old favorite, Eye contact, excuses to walk past their table or engage conversation (worked well when I smoked, "do you have a light please" whilst holding eye contact for a bit too long, lol so cheesy but amazingly effective ) hair touching, arm touching (theirs) but to be honest, most of the time they were part of my group or freind of a freind so already had an in & if the attraction was obviously mutual then a bit of dutch courage & bombs away

[sbk]

I'm the same as Boo, kat, been so long I don't know if I even want to say! But, I do recall that my husband made his interest pretty clear so I didn't really have to make the first move at all. Didn't date any other Thai guys and since he wasn't shy, I guess I would have to say I didn't do anything differently than I would have at home with a cute guy who showed interest.

[seville]

Play harder to get here and more careful in making sure we are in complete understading of the other. Hopefully, I'm not going to be dating anymore and keeping this one. He is a beauty.

[Thaddeus]

the old favorite, Eye contact, excuses to walk past their table or engage conversation (worked well when I smoked, "do you have a light please" whilst holding eye contact for a bit too long, lol so cheesy but amazingly effective ) hair touching, arm touching (theirs) but to be honest, most of the time they were part of my group or freind of a freind so already had an in & if the attraction was obviously mutual then a bit of dutch courage & bombs away

They have pretty much all worked on me in the past (and a few others)

I know this is the ladies forum, but I hope you won't mind if I chip in with one remark.

Differences in culture and attitude are only brought to light in this situation when you consider the genders, I don't like to use the words hunter and prey but I can't think of any better at the moment, the male hunter is always disadvantaged, even moreso when in unfamiliar waters. When the female becomes the hunter, the male prey is pretty much Prêt-à-Porter, most, if not all the time.

Men have two brains, once you have the attention of the small one, you nail us every-time (it's so unfair)

[RueFang]

Previous to my husband, I was with another Thai guy and that was some outrageous flirting and fun before we hooked up...he was of the island variety though and had experience relating to farang women. With my husband (who is a village boy through and through), it was pretty much a conversation along the lines of "I really like you" and since I felt the same, it just swung into an instant serious relationship (and nine months later a wedding ). In my opinion, it NEVER would have worked like that with a western guy!! So simple, yet effective

[kat]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Thaddeus, I have a question in there for men as well, so feel free to jump in.

Boo: yeah, the old coquettish charm and eye contact. Does work every time, but for me - believe it or not - I'm too shy to use that approach in the beginning with a guy to which I am genuinely attracted, or crushing on. I can flirt with the best of them when the stakes don't seem very high, but when a real attraction is there, whether possible or not, I can't do it, except of course for the unconscious or involuntary cues that I may give off. I am too subtle and usually try to connect intellectually or verbally, which put me at a disadvantage in Thailand. I think that is why the direct approach on my part worked well with the two Thai guys that I dated. Of course, there were those with language skills that *made the first move on me, but they were usually off limits because they were students (of mine) or players. With Burmese guys I dated, there was no barrier language or not, they all made the first move.

SBK: the "passive" approach works well when the one chasing is the one you are interested in, but I am rarely that lucky. All the guys that I am interested in are usually the guys that hang back, and I usually have to go and get them. I don't know why that is.

Seville: so, you do go about things slightly differently in Thailand. My problem is that I can't "play" anything, I either am or I'm not. When I usually "play" at flirting, it's because it really is just play. However, it is fun when a playful flirtation turns into a major attraction. That has been known to happen, but with me it's usually an accident.

Rue: so, with the previous guy, the flirting was not much different from anyone else? I know what you mean about the simplicity of directness. That's exactly how it was with the Thai guy that I ended up dating. We would've swung into serious dating mode if it wasn't for the slight inconvenience and oversight of his having a wife. (that I didn't know about previously).

Where's girlx? I'm sure she has some feedback to share on this topic.

*edit

Edited July 23, 2008 by kat

[girlx]

i'm the same as you, kat. i can flirt with someone i am not really interested in but if i really like someone i clam up and send out all the wrong signals! the exception though is when i feel a really strong instant 'click', love at first sight or whatever, and in that case my personality does a 180 and i will actually go right for them, kamikaze style! i find with thai guys, they are very straightforward about whether they like you or not. if you want them, you got them, whether they are already hooked up or not! i have never found it a challenge to talk to or hook up with any thai guy i liked. it's western men who are the challenge. sexually of course it is easy to pick up, but if you are looking for something more, western guys are much more careful and discerning. i miss that actually! more intellectual flirting i guess it is.

i read recently though (was flipping through the book 'he's just not into you' at the bookstore) that the majority of relationships that start out with the woman being aggressive fail!!!!

[kat]

Yeah, we sound similar in that way because I think we are both air signs.

In terms of the book's assertion that "the majority of relationships with the women as aggressors fail", that is a sobering statistic. But, I'd have to say in my case, when I WASN'T the initiator they failed, because I just wasn't that into him.

Seriously, all of my 5 major love relationships except for two were where *I had to go and get him. Of course, I already knew that they wanted me, but they weren't making the move. I don't know if that still counts as me being the "aggressor". They weren't doing anything, but wanted to, and I sensed it and couldn't wait for them any longer. It was either going to happen, or it wasn't. These were the major loves of my life. We broke up for entirely different reasons, that all other couples break up over, aggressor or not.

So, I think that book is a crock of <deleted>.

What say you guys?

*I have to say, this was very efficient for non-love relationships as well, lol.

Edited July 23, 2008 by kat

[girlx]

(yes, i am an air sign too )

& yeah, my relationships ended no matter who was initially the aggressor... i guess that book was just making the point that if he was really into you, he would find some way to get you himself and you wouldn't have to do all the work.

[kat]

Yeah, like "The Rules" book and all. It may be partly true in some circumstances, but the problem with those books is that they don't take stock of the full range of scenarios or people. Like the ones who are not cookie-cutter, rules people. For example, there are plenty of guys who make the first move who are not necessarily interested in you, and there are lots of guys who are who never make the first move.

I'm not very good at the coquettish game, so I would be stuck with all of the guys who choose me, who I may not choose myself. There are a lot of men who never make any overt moves.

[britmaveric]

Sure its flattering being pursued by women, so I would think the same is true for women. Well that's if its wanted pursuit.

[kat]

Yes, precisely. There have to be some clues or instincts going on to know if it's wanted, and taking a risk. If not, it's a harmless compliment and perfectly healthy.

[girlx]

Sure its flattering being pursued by women, so I would think the same is true for women. Well that's if its wanted pursuit.

isn't it funny though (and quite sad) that we are all quite happy to be pursued by someone we are attracted to, but if we're not attracted to them they are a creepy stalker?!

[sgtpeppers]

guy input.

unless you want to emasculate the poor fellow best to let him make THE MOVE first. by all means encourage him.

[Thaddeus]

I don't know if that still counts as me being the "aggressor". They weren't doing anything, but wanted to, and I sensed it and couldn't wait for them any longer. It was either going to happen, or it wasn't. These were the major loves of my life. We broke up for entirely different reasons, that all other couples break up over, aggressor or not.

A long time ago in the UK I had a real crush on a girl, but was incredibly inexperienced and shy (I had not long since divorced my childhood sweetheart, at that point the only girl I had ever slept with) after six months of late night dinners and some boozy vodka sessions she got fed up of me beating around the bush and just said "look, are you going to kiss me or not"

We ended up having an open and very honest relationship for fifteen years, which was only really terminated when I moved here, as far as I am concerned, as long as the attraction is mutual and sustainable, it doesn't matter one jot who gets the ball rolling.

[shikonjewel]

In my experience, I didn't make the first move. Although I was 17 and in high school, I remeber him trying to tell me how I was doing something wrong in gym class, really giving me pointers. But I was annoyed because, well, I was a teenage girl and when do we ever want our flaws in anything brought to our attention. Mostly I was probably thinking though... 'who is this exchange kid and what the heck is he saying?' He started to follow me around after that and we became friends, his intentions clear, mine not interested for a while. Gradual affection I guess.

In hitting on him? Now, I do just that, hit on him. Usually by flirting I guess, sometimes probably a little too much depending. I'm comfortable with him though, if something happened and I had to play the dating field though, I would probably revert back to being passive. I have a friend though who can just walk up to any guy she fancies and start flirting.. shes never been detered by rejection. Something I've always looked at her in awe for.

When I was in thailand though, we did manage to go to a bar one night, (and I mean 1 night!) where I got a too flirty for a Thai bar I guess? We were with a bunch of his friends and his brother, mostly male. I didn't even know until he said something to me after we had left, not out of embarassment or anything though, I think he liked the attention or something cause whatever I did, I surprised a couple of his friends and there were a few giggles. I'm really not sure what I did to this day. It's not like I was dancing up on him or anything like someone might see in a club here.

What would anyone consider flirting too much/ going to far by thai standards versus a western way of going about things anyway?

[kat]

guy input.

unless you want to emasculate the poor fellow best to let him make THE MOVE first. by all means encourage him.

How does that emasculate him? His masculinity comes from within, it is just a fact of his existence, so there is nothing that he needs to do to "maintain" it or risk having it taken away that easily.

We ended up having an open and very honest relationship for fifteen years, which was only really terminated when I moved here, as far as I am concerned, as long as the attraction is mutual and sustainable, it doesn't matter one jot who gets the ball rolling.

Yeah, that is the how a lot of relationships get the ball rolling.

[sgtpeppers]

guy input.

unless you want to emasculate the poor fellow best to let him make THE MOVE first. by all means encourage him.

How does that emasculate him? His masculinity comes from within, it is just a fact of his existence, so there is nothing that he needs to do to "maintain" it or risk having it taken away that easily.

But his masculinity is expressed outwards, particularly in the way he interacts with his female.

ladies flirt, guys make THE MOVE.

if the role is reversed it is the beginning of what usually ends up as an unsatisfy relationship. inthe statistic mentioned by girlx backs this up.

[midasthailand]

guy input.

unless you want to emasculate the poor fellow best to let him make THE MOVE first. by all means encourage him.

How does that emasculate him? His masculinity comes from within, it is just a fact of his existence, so there is nothing that he needs to do to "maintain" it or risk having it taken away that easily.

But his masculinity is expressed outwards, particularly in the way he interacts with his female.

ladies flirt, guys make THE MOVE.

if the role is reversed it is the beginning of what usually ends up as an unsatisfy relationship. inthe statistic mentioned by girlx backs this up.

Although not something that happens to me too often these days, I can say with some authority that I never felt "emasculated" if the woman made the first move, quite the contrary, I felt very flattered and wanted. Unfortunately in relationships there is no one size fits all method, what works well for you with one guy could blow up in your face with the next. But the chase is half the fun so go for it.

[girlx]

What would anyone consider flirting too much/ going to far by thai standards versus a western way of going about things anyway?

in a lot of cases if you are a girl talking to a boy, the thais will assume you have a romantic interest in him. as mentioned earlier, the sexes are pretty segregated in thailand and thai men don't have women "friends" in the way we do in the west. if you guys plan a night out together, you are definitely dating, and everyone will assume he is your boyfriend.

going too far- thais look down on the lack of modesty far more than they do promiscuity. in other words, dress appropriately, don't be too loud and brash, don't drink or smoke, and keep your affections behind closed doors, and then you will be a "good girl".

[RueFang]

Rue: so, with the previous guy, the flirting was not much different from anyone else?

Not so different, all the same cues, eye contact, touching, etc. Like I said though, he was quite the ladies man, so knew how to effectively give chase. He also had radar for women who found him attractive too which a lot of men seem to lack (lack of self esteem maybe?).

I've been told by a couple of exs that men hate making the first move because of the fear of rejection. My first love told me he was pretty much in love with me (while we were still in flirting stage) but he never would have made the first move (into real relationship mode) because he couldn't handle it if I said no! I think men's egos are more fragile then they ever let on and regardless of all the clues we give off to ask us out, they aren't 100% we'll say yes, so they don't do it. Perhaps women don't take it so bad if they are turned down. I've asked a few people out in the past and been rejected once cos he had a gf and even though I was disappointed, I was kinda pleased with myself for having the courage to ask him out!

I much prefer the direct approach rather then all the game playing..but it depends where you are in life at the time..the game can be fun if all you want is some flirting and a bit of a light relationship, but if you have strong feelings for each other, I don't see the point in wasting months of time by not coming out and saying how you feel.

[kat]

guy input.

unless you want to emasculate the poor fellow best to let him make THE MOVE first. by all means encourage him.

How does that emasculate him? His masculinity comes from within, it is just a fact of his existence, so there is nothing that he needs to do to "maintain" it or risk having it taken away that easily.

But his masculinity is expressed outwards, particularly in the way he interacts with his female.

ladies flirt, guys make THE MOVE.

if the role is reversed it is the beginning of what usually ends up as an unsatisfy relationship. inthe statistic mentioned by girlx backs this up.

No, I completely disagree with you Pepper. The "statistic" from the book that girlx mentions is not a scholarly social science hypothesis, but simply an advice book. It doesn't hold much water for me, because there are tons of alternative scribes that say exactly the opposite. And, my personal experience backs it up. My personal experience and instincts are significant for me, because that is what guides me to the men for me. It is not as if women who make the first move are acting out of nowhere, but usually out of their own instincts for what is going on with him. There are tons of guys who never do but are attracted, and I think the female instinct is the natural order of things. By far, these guys are very masculine to me, and I am very female, and if they are following their natural order and I'm following my own, then we are exactly as we need to be as a male and female together, following our own natural instincts and ways, and not some made up rules or external perceptions about "masculinity" and "femininity". And my guys usually hang back. But, I never do all of the work, but usually will drop a big enough hint for them to follow up on, or am sometimes very direct. I cannot stand playing games, and I am not attracted to fake machos, so there you go. I have ended up with some hot men whom I've loved, so there must be something right about trusting your instincts and inner self.

Rue: so, with the previous guy, the flirting was not much different from anyone else?

Not so different, all the same cues, eye contact, touching, etc. Like I said though, he was quite the ladies man, so knew how to effectively give chase. He also had radar for women who found him attractive too which a lot of men seem to lack (lack of self esteem maybe?).

I've been told by a couple of exs that men hate making the first move because of the fear of rejection. My first love told me he was pretty much in love with me (while we were still in flirting stage) but he never would have made the first move (into real relationship mode) because he couldn't handle it if I said no! I think men's egos are more fragile then they ever let on and regardless of all the clues we give off to ask us out, they aren't 100% we'll say yes, so they don't do it. Perhaps women don't take it so bad if they are turned down. I've asked a few people out in the past and been rejected once cos he had a gf and even though I was disappointed, I was kinda pleased with myself for having the courage to ask him out!

I much prefer the direct approach rather then all the game playing..but it depends where you are in life at the time..the game can be fun if all you want is some flirting and a bit of a light relationship, but if you have strong feelings for each other, I don't see the point in wasting months of time by not coming out and saying how you feel.

's

Yes, agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. About the first guy, or the "ladies' man", that is exactly why the guys that are a little too comfortable making moves like that don't attract me as much. Their smugness is a bit of a turn off and an indication for me. But again, my instincts are my guide, so I let them judge what to do. Of course, libido factors in there, but if that differs from common sense then common sense will intervene at some point as well.

[Amyji]

Hey Kat, can I jump on board? Found this topic a bit late in the game...

I never did get to make any moves on Thai guys during my years living in Bangkok. When I had moved there I was wounded on the whole dating scene and I had on my shell of armour. I think that guys could sense that, so I didn't get any attention.

A few years later I think I got my confidence back because suddenly I was being asked out left and right, and fortunately for me, it was from guys who I found attractive! I didn't have the gumption to make first moves, but the signals I was sending out (erect posture, eye contact, smiling) must have made it clear that I was available.

Earlier, shikonjewel had asked, "What would anyone consider flirting too much/ going to far by thai standards versus a western way of going about things anyway?"

Before I dated the man who was to become my husband, I went on a few dates with a Thai guy who was the colleague of my co-worker's husband. He took me home in his car after we all had big group dinner together, and on the way, he stopped his car on the side of the small dark soi to make out with me. It got rather hot and heavy and the thought did cross my mind in a near panic "Do Thai men take no for an answer?" I backed off quick and said no, and fortunately for me, he respected my boundaries.

I think that since I was far less familiar with Thai men and the culture of courtship in Thailand, I was far less assertive and more coy, letting the guys take the lead. It worked out well since I ended up marrying a Thai man! (and like RueFang, my courtship with hubby was whirlwind and we've been happily together over four years now.)

Edited July 23, 2008 by Amyji

[wolfmanjack]

Yeah, like "The Rules" book and all. It may be partly true in some circumstances, but the problem with those books is that they don't take stock of the full range of scenarios or people. Like the ones who are not cookie-cutter, rules people. For example, there are plenty of guys who make the first move who are not necessarily interested in you, and there are lots of guys who are who never make the first move.

I'm not very good at the coquettish game, so I would be stuck with all of the guys who choose me, who I may not choose myself. There are a lot of men who never make any overt moves.

I was the same as Kat. I could flirt with any girl i was not really interested in but when it came time to talk to a girl i really liked i would get tongue tied.

As for the subtle clues i was clueless. There were many girls that liked me where i had no clue. A friend of theirs usually told me if i did not figure it out for myself.

In regards to the book all of my relationships failed except for the one i am in now regardless of who was the agressor. It is kind of like the key that works is always the last one you try.

[kat]

As for the subtle clues i was clueless.

Thanks wolfieman. Great post.

[sylvafern]

Back to the original question .... does your style change when you move to Thailand .... for me I don't think I really had a style but moving to Thailand definitely didn't change anything. I only ever had one boyfriend before I moved to Thailand when I was 24 and a few casual flings .... I was always far too shy to make a move and, if I did, alcohol played a part in it. Even when I got together with my ex (who was thai) it was a typical scene of meeting on the dance floor of a bar and (more than) a few drinks were involved.

Now, at 35, I'm just getting back into the single scene (even though I've been single for 2 years ... it's taken me that long to build up confidence in myself) and I still have no clue. I thought that I'd totally gone off all Thai men forever, but all of a sudden my interest has seemed to pounce back and I keep seeing gorgeous guys everywhere. At the moment I really fancy one particular guy but, as he's actually the instructor of the class I go to at the gym (cliche, I know!), I don't exactly get the chance to talk to him. Throughout the class we exchange smiles a lot, but I have no idea how to read the signs (if any) ... perhaps he's just smiling at me because I'm the only farang in the room?? At the end of class I try to take as long as possible to put away my equipment to give him a chance to come up to me but it's not worked so far.... I don't think there's much chance of it progressing past smile stage as I'm too shy to approach him and I get the feeling, if he doesn't already have a girlfriend, he is too shy to approach me.

Now that I'm older (not that I feel it ... feel 25 not 35!) it's harder to know if a guy is single or not. At least when you're younger, there's a much higher chance that a guy you're keen on could also be single. It doesn't help that most Thai men don't wear wedding rings ... at least with a western man that can give you some clue. Also, I find with Thai men in particular (with Thai people in general) it's much harder to judge the age.... it would be a bit embarrassing (for me) to finally pluck up the courage to flirt/ask a guy out and then find out he's 10 or 15 years younger than yourself!

[kat]

Yeah, you have to watch out for those instructors at the gym. Sounds a lot like someone I knew at my gym in Bangkok, hmmmm.

At any rate, if you are interacting and/or mutually flirting with someone who is an obvious adult, I would enjoy the flirtation and not worry about age unless or when it became an issue. Set yourself free woman!

[eek]

Good luck with that instructor sylvafern! If he is a gym instructor maybe you can ask if he is also a personal trainer..if he is, and not expensive, you could ask him to work out a fitness programme with you. That way, when you are exercising and/or working out a programme, you can ask him some more detailed questions (leading up to do you have a wife/children/etc type questions), all under the guise of just chit-chat. That will hopefully give him enough clues that you are interested and give him opportunity to make a move (such as going for a drink afterwards).

-----

My first and only experience of asking a guy out was when i was 16. I was turned down and mortified! The embarrassment stuck with me and I vowed never to do that again. After that I have just relied on giving cues. Smiles, longer eye contact, body language, and if talking to a guy then being animated, interested in what he has to say, asking leading questions, and keeping my focus on him (no wandering eyes). I have found that if he is interested in me too, he picks up on those signals. I also think signals come out automatically, without actively meaning to. It works for me, so im sticking to it. I plan only to keep using those signals as a way of showing subtle appreciation to the man I am with now tho.

..which brings up a point actually..do you keep using those flirtation signals/techniques even after a relationship is established? I personally think it helps a relationship when you are still a bit coy and flirtatious. I think men enjoy the feeling.

[pop_corn]

Well.. if I do like someone I just make it simple.. and I would say pretty directly.. "Wow, did I told you? ... You are looking great today, lucky girl who gets to kiss you *grins* "

hahahahaha