Wai Oh Wai

[Naam]

I think Tywais has covered everything spot on in his post.

BINGO!

[AFKAFSinLOS]

Just curious... Would he "judge" you in the same way on compliance with the arbitrary list I posted above of some other elements of Thai behviour...?

Sorry, I just skimmed over your post earlier. But looking at it I find it too stereotypical, that is not all Thais adhere to all the items. Don't want to take up space itemizing each of them but I know several he would not do nor agree to.

...And that's also bang on the mark, for some of the reasons why I chucked up an arbitrary list...

- Judging someone on whether they wai or not is simply another form of stereotyping and judging, as are all the other items on the list...

- Different people have different values and do things for different reasons. That some Thais follow some of them and not others takes it further...

- At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter whether he (or anyone else) agrees with them or not...

BTW The fact that he's a university professor is pretty irrelevant just one opinion in billions around the world...

Edited July 24, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[allyfu]

This is an interesting topic for me. For the last 15 years I've been training in Muay Thai in the UK, and I Wai both my Kru and fellow student all the time, this gesture of respect is instilled from day one, as it is in Karate/TaeKwondo etc by bowing.

I only visited Thailand to train for the first time last year, and I found myself instinctively 'Wai-ing' all the time, moreso to my pad-holders, but also in shops, hotels and every time someone 'Wai'd' me!

I'm sure 99% of the time it was unnecessary/uncalled for, but I do it subconciously, and half the time I'm unaware that I've even done it.

[Tywais]

The other side of the coin, is when you treat a maid, a cleaner, or a security guard with "more respect than they deserve" in a Thai's eyes...

Observe who a Thai says thank-you to and who they don't... Observe who they exclude and who don't exclude...

Personally I like to treat people equally. Most Thais I've met struggle to really understand what that means and how it feels. I like to make people feel part of a group, rather than to exclude them or make them feel lower for whatever reason. I also don't like to exclude people based on income, age or status.

I don't like to devalue one person based on values that Thais use. Inherently I accept people and try and treat people the same regardless of race, sex, nationality, religion. I also rarely cast judgement... except perhaps on those that judge others... At the end of the day... all just some of my beliefs.. take them or leave them as I feel free to do with other people's...

You have some good points there and thanks for bringing them up, it got me thinking about your point on our imported values. I'm pretty much in line with your comments on equality. That has always been a strong issue for me. However, it is necessary to 'modify' them in this new environment (Thailand) even though I'm not comfortable with it. I'm only guessing here, but I suspect the Thais in the categories you mention expect it and don't consider it as wrong or right or take it personally, just it is what it is. Of course, I could be wrong about what they are thinking since I haven't tried discussing it with my maid/barber/waitress.

The bottom line, I still treat each with respect unless otherwise indicated by their actions or lack of. I don't wai the local mini-mart lady, we've known each other for years but I will thank her for her assistance (and she thanks me for my patronage). This is what I would do anywhere and have not found it inappropriate or unappreciated even in Thailand.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

The other side of the coin, is when you treat a maid, a cleaner, or a security guard with "more respect than they deserve" in a Thai's eyes...

Observe who a Thai says thank-you to and who they don't... Observe who they exclude and who don't exclude...

Personally I like to treat people equally. Most Thais I've met struggle to really understand what that means and how it feels. I like to make people feel part of a group, rather than to exclude them or make them feel lower for whatever reason. I also don't like to exclude people based on income, age or status.

I don't like to devalue one person based on values that Thais use. Inherently I accept people and try and treat people the same regardless of race, sex, nationality, religion. I also rarely cast judgement... except perhaps on those that judge others... At the end of the day... all just some of my beliefs.. take them or leave them as I feel free to do with other people's...

You have some good points there and thanks for bringing them up, it got me thinking about your point on our imported values. I'm pretty much in line with your comments on equality. That has always been a strong issue for me. However, it is necessary to 'modify' them in this new environment (Thailand) even though I'm not comfortable with it. I'm only guessing here, but I suspect the Thais in the categories you mention expect it and don't consider it as wrong or right or take it personally, just it is what it is. Of course, I could be wrong about what they are thinking since I haven't tried discussing it with my maid/barber/waitress.

The bottom line, I still treat each with respect unless otherwise indicated by their actions or lack of. I don't wai the local mini-mart lady, we've known each other for years but I will thank her for her assistance (and she thanks me for my patronage). This is what I would do anywhere and have not found it inappropriate or unappreciated even in Thailand.

That's the tough part, modifying your behaviour so that you are still comfortable with it... I continually modify my behaviour and even my beliefs and values as you say, but I still need to be comfortable with them and that's the bit that doesn't usually change...One exception to that one usually being that I can do things I'm uncomfortable with if it's for certain other special people like my wife...

I think you're right that the "lower" Thais expect it and generally accept it, without taking it personally. If you do ask they usually say never mind or that's just the way it is, or sometimes don't really understand what you are getting at or why. But you also know that they do think about what it would be like if the roles are reversed and they were the "high" person. Like anyone else from time to time they feel life is sometimes unfair, so you know if it doesn't hit them there and then, there's still a good chance you're contributing to it later, so you still that feeling of discomfort...One exception to that one being that sometimes causing people discomfort could be exactly the thing to cause a change for the better

Comes down to whatever you do. Do for the right reasons. (Or perhaps what you think are the right reasons... ).

BTW Cheers for replying to this. I messed up and deleted this bit of the post when editing above...

Edited July 24, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[fred2007]

Unless you know the exact way to 'wai' and to whom, it is best just to acknowlege with a nod.

I only 'wai' when grovelling to the immigration, land office etc.

And you guys, NEVER 'wai' to a bar girl.

Is that you in your av Erika? V nice funbags

I could wai to them all day long

[AFKAFSinLOS]

...One last thing and that is waiing children. Some think it is never appropriate. My ajarn friend explained that he will return a wai to a child (he will not initiate it), his reasoning is if he doesn't the child will grow up thinking it is not important. In other words, he leads by example. Funny enough, seems I see more higher class Thais returning wais to kids then others.

...

Man,

Over the years I've just about worked out where I stand on this topic and what my views are, and I was pretty comfortable with them...

Now I've got to think about what example I should be setting the kids...To be honest I'd always imagined our daughter just inheriting it from her mum, and quite liked that image... even though I prefer not to myself...

Edited July 24, 2008 by AFKAFSinLOS

[Payboy]

if you ever notice how many thais exit a restroom without washing their hands, you would prefer wai's to handshakes anyday....

[Tod Daniels]

It's sad to read how so many people show such little respect to other peoples culture and traditions while staying in their country and interacting with local people.

Let's say you lived in a country where it was the culture and even the tradition of all the inhabitants to routinely kick every dog they walked passed; in your head long rush to respect "other peoples cultures and traditions" would you begin to do it?

In my mind; accepting the mythical and/or alleged cultural idiosyncrasies exhibited by a country's inhabitants for what they are; behavior that's pounded into their heads from birth, is far more important than embracing them as my own, and/or parroting their mannerisms to 'fit in' with the natives. That would be even sadder still, don't you think?

Silly farang; wais are for thais*

*(for those that don't know that is a play on words from the Trix breakfast cereal tag line; Silly rabbit; Trix are for kids)

DON'T BE A:

[rgs2001uk]

i was taught, you wai up not down.

i was also taught there are certain times you do not need to return the wai, eg , the girl at the tesco lotus check out gives a wai, no need to return it.

as much as it may not be pc to discuss it, most of the the time it is percieved to be a way of distinguishing status.

i like to listen to two thais who have never met before, to westerners the questions may appear to be rude, however for the thais the questions are a way to recognise status, and are perfectly normal.

listen to the tone of the language in the conversation once it has been established who in the thais mind is superior and inferior.

always with an open mind on this subject, and waiting for those more informed to quantify.

[Tinkelbell]

After been through several threads about the 'WAI'.

I have to say I was quite taken by posts from 'AFKASinLOS' 'intumult' 'Niranam'

'Sarburioz' 'tod-daniels' 'Twais' 'mistresserika' 'rgs2001'.

Couldn't put it better myself. You guys (or gals) are really know what you talking about the wai. It mirrors the ' Thai etiquette of wai ' the same way I grew up with, I spent twelve years in boarding school owned by the late Price Kasemsri.

Now I wonder, if you're not a Thai, then it posible that your lifestyle routine comes into contact with or associates with those Thais who considered to be in a social class. What ever that be, you each had learned and present yourself rightly and nicely.

[Carib]

I wai, therefore I am....I must be, because they wai me..

[wolfmanjack]

It has a lot to do with what you are doing in thailand. I have a business and have to deal with thai business people. I also have to deal with pompous government officials. if a wai will help move things along or smooth things over then i will do it. I am also a relatively polite person so if a person wais me i usually wai them back or at least smile and nod if my hands are full.

Naaah,

It has as much do with what you are doing in Thailand as you want it to... It's one small thing among a million others I can't ever recall a foreigner losing out on a business deal just because they didn't wai someone...

In business the only time as a foreigner, I'd consider I ought to wai, and it would really make a difference, is if I was in a meeting with mixed foreign and Thai participation, and everyone in the whole room, including all the other foreigners, wai'd a particular person...

Your last sentence is much more on the mark. Simple polite acknowledgement of a wai with a nod or a smile is enough in 99%+ of cases...

So you admit that in certain cases you will wai someone before they wai you as in the case you pointed out above. I can't think of any time that i have initiated a wai. I don't run in those circles.

As I said, in my experience, it helps smooth things over when dealing with government officials and many of the Thais that I engage in business to return a wai . When i first started my business i did not wai. Now that I do things move along much more quickly. To me it is the same as tea money. I have to pay every month the same as the Thai people do.

Now if i was rich, had powerful friends, drove a benz and the government officials knew this then i would not have to wai them back

[AFKAFSinLOS]

It has a lot to do with what you are doing in thailand. I have a business and have to deal with thai business people. I also have to deal with pompous government officials. if a wai will help move things along or smooth things over then i will do it. I am also a relatively polite person so if a person wais me i usually wai them back or at least smile and nod if my hands are full.

Naaah,

It has as much do with what you are doing in Thailand as you want it to... It's one small thing among a million others I can't ever recall a foreigner losing out on a business deal just because they didn't wai someone...

In business the only time as a foreigner, I'd consider I ought to wai, and it would really make a difference, is if I was in a meeting with mixed foreign and Thai participation, and everyone in the whole room, including all the other foreigners, wai'd a particular person...

Your last sentence is much more on the mark. Simple polite acknowledgement of a wai with a nod or a smile is enough in 99%+ of cases...

So you admit that in certain cases you will wai someone before they wai you as in the case you pointed out above. I can't think of any time that i have initiated a wai. I don't run in those circles.

As I said, in my experience, it helps smooth things over when dealing with government officials and many of the Thais that I engage in business to return a wai . When i first started my business i did not wai. Now that I do things move along much more quickly. To me it is the same as tea money. I have to pay every month the same as the Thai people do.

Now if i was rich, had powerful friends, drove a benz and the government officials knew this then i would not have to wai them back

Yes, I'm happy to admit, there are a very small number of situations where I will initiate a wai, and there are a very small number of situations where I'll respond, even though it doesn't necessarily feel right...That's why I raised it. Just in the same way my wife will frequently wai, but occasionally choose not to...

It's a personal thing and for me comes back to the wai being as important as you want it to be, and doing it for your own (what you think are) right reasons... As Tywais pointed out you need to modify your behaviour sometimes and keep an open mind. His comments about the example to children also gave me a some more food for thought, and a few other things to think about...

Besides... there are (usually) always exceptions to every rule...

For me the important thing is not judging someone else's actions, such as whether they wai or not. But it is worth understanding their intent behind their actions though... It's a fact Thais and foreigners often behave and act differently.... and you're forever going to get wound up if you keep judging people as right or wrong on those different acts...Looking at intent is more difficult, but there's often a lot more in common...

[wolfmanjack]

It has a lot to do with what you are doing in thailand. I have a business and have to deal with thai business people. I also have to deal with pompous government officials. if a wai will help move things along or smooth things over then i will do it. I am also a relatively polite person so if a person wais me i usually wai them back or at least smile and nod if my hands are full.

Naaah,

It has as much do with what you are doing in Thailand as you want it to... It's one small thing among a million others I can't ever recall a foreigner losing out on a business deal just because they didn't wai someone...

In business the only time as a foreigner, I'd consider I ought to wai, and it would really make a difference, is if I was in a meeting with mixed foreign and Thai participation, and everyone in the whole room, including all the other foreigners, wai'd a particular person...

Your last sentence is much more on the mark. Simple polite acknowledgement of a wai with a nod or a smile is enough in 99%+ of cases...

So you admit that in certain cases you will wai someone before they wai you as in the case you pointed out above. I can't think of any time that i have initiated a wai. I don't run in those circles.

As I said, in my experience, it helps smooth things over when dealing with government officials and many of the Thais that I engage in business to return a wai . When i first started my business i did not wai. Now that I do things move along much more quickly. To me it is the same as tea money. I have to pay every month the same as the Thai people do.

Now if i was rich, had powerful friends, drove a benz and the government officials knew this then i would not have to wai them back

Yes, I'm happy to admit, there are a very small number of situations where I will initiate a wai, and there are a very small number of situations where I'll respond, even though it doesn't necessarily feel right...That's why I raised it. Just in the same way my wife will frequently wai, but occasionally choose not to...

It's a personal thing and for me comes back to the wai being as important as you want it to be, and doing it for your own (what you think are) right reasons... As Tywais pointed out you need to modify your behaviour sometimes and keep an open mind. His comments about the example to children also gave me a some more food for thought, and a few other things to think about...

Besides... there are (usually) always exceptions to every rule...

For me the important thing is not judging someone else's actions, such as whether they wai or not. But it is worth understanding their intent behind their actions though... It's a fact Thais and foreigners often behave and act differently.... and you're forever going to get wound up if you keep judging people as right or wrong on those different acts...Looking at intent is more difficult, but there's often a lot more in common...

So right you are. I never even thought about judging any one on the basis of whether they Wai or not until i started reading this thread. I spend most of my time out here in the boonies and am not exposed to other falangs that much so i did not give it much thought.

[Tinkelbell]

quoted from 'sweetchariot'.............Watch the Thai's faces when a farang wai's a bargirl or waitress, priceless....."

Love your definition of this word - priceless.

Have you seen some farangs wai to retail store salegirl ?

[JetsetBkk]

being a Farang who visited Thailand for the first time 35 years ago, having later spent numerous times my holidays in this country and now living in Thailand since nearly four years i am dàmn sure that my wife and me have lost face (unknowingly and unintentionally) a zillion times...

Kudos to you Naam! You found a way around the automatic "bad word filter" with "dàmn".

[RAZZELL]

Pretty much every time this topic pops up it gets the same crowd.

1. Those who don't wai at anything

2. Those that only wai a certain category of people

3. The backpacker wai - wais everything, even the local soi dog.

4. The culturally aware, which appears to be a small minority.

I have been coming to Thailand for over 35 years, working here nearly 16 years and 99.9% of my interactions are with Thai, from the lowest class to the highest class you can imagine. I made/make an effort to know the culture and its' meaning to make my daily life more pleasant. I'm at a point where I instinctively know when, where and how to wai. Not to say that I don't occasionally make a faux pax, but when I do I usually realize it immediately and kick myself for a while for doing it (in other words, I should have known better).

I talked to a Thai ajarn friend of mine at the university regarding his thoughts on farangs and waiing or not waiing. First I asked if it was a tourist or a visiting professor and he did not return a wai, what would he think. His comment was he wouldn't think anything of it knowing the person is culturally unaware. Now he made a point though and used me as an example (as an analogy for the opposite farang group). He said if he was standing somewhere out of sight and saw a Thai approach me and waied me but I didn't return the wai, he would be quite upset.

The reason is he knows me, that I have been here a long time and understand the culture, I speak the language and have a Thai wife. In other words, there is no excuse for my behavior with this person. Same with some other Thais at the university, if you refuse to wai then you do not respect the culture or the people (again, if you have been here for an extended period and not the casual visitor).

Now these are highly educated Thais who make a distinction between the various farang categories. Now try to think of lessor educated Thais and I suspect their thoughts are a little less forgiving.

One last thing and that is waiing children. Some think it is never appropriate. My ajarn friend explained that he will return a wai to a child (he will not initiate it), his reasoning is if he doesn't the child will grow up thinking it is not important. In other words, he leads by example. Funny enough, seems I see more higher class Thais returning wais to kids then others.

Handshake vs wai. Yes, not the same thing in either meaning or effect. Though having said that, it seems I remember reading that the wai originated in the same fashion as the handshake. That is, it was to show your enemy you were not holding a weapon. I'm still trying to find the history and the where and why of how the wai started. My colleague believes it originated in India.

My 2 satangs.

Excellent post

Only timed I've ever "wai'd" is when I met the gf's aunt's.

They "wai'd" me...I smiled...One dig in the ribs later I "wai'd" back

RAZZ

Edited July 27, 2008 by RAZZELL

[harleyclarkey]

Complicated puppy this.....so Wai bother?

Seems the idea is to keep the Wai as a gesture of respect....not so much a greeting?? I only ever Wai back if the other person initiates it.

[OlRedEyes]

I have yet to meet, see or hear of any Thai that will ever accept a westerner as an integrated part of Thai society, whether he wai's his butt off or not. Taking this sad fact into consideration, why on earth would I participate in a cultural activity that goes directly against the grain of my absolute belief that I am neither superior nor inferior to anyone that has ever tread this earth.

The wai is not simply a show of respect. It is in great measure a statement of social 'level'. Like so many things in this country, a carry-over of a uneducated past that should have evolved long ago. And I dare say, something that helps those that exploit the people of this country so effectively, and keeps them under control and in their power.

[DP25]

The only person I'll wai is my girlfriend's mother. Mainly because she'll (the girlfriend, not the mother) hold out the sex if I don't. I do not wai anyone else.

[Maigo6]

I done a WAI to a bargirl in Soi 6 Pattaya and afterwards got the best head I've ever had, am I wrong , or should I take note of all the plebs on Thai Visa ?

I mean c'mon.... I never saw the girl again, what the fawk does it matter, you guys are scared of your own shadows.

[Maigo6]

I have yet to meet, see or hear of any Thai that will ever accept a westerner as an integrated part of Thai society, whether he wai's his butt off or not.

Old Red, I knew you was always a miserable old fart, but really, this takes the biscuit.

Tell me, what is that keeps you in Thailand, every post you ever make is negative, are you here under duress, can you never return home, are you kept in Thailand at gunpoint ?

I'd love to meet you and try to get inside your mind, you obviously hate Thailand, Thai people, and your own life, yet you still remain here.

Do you need a loan for an air ticket out ?

I wish I could be as happy and content as you are.....................

Edited July 27, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

The wai is not simply a show of respect. It is in great measure a statement of social 'level'. Like so many things in this country, a carry-over of a uneducated past.

And you came to Thailand for the Intellectual stimulation ?

Go on I dare you to tell me that you did.

[JetsetBkk]

^ ^^ and ^^^

You're a class act Maigo6.

[Maigo6]

You're a class act Maigo6.

I've always thought so too, but until now I've never had it confirmed.

[solent01]

Keep it civil please Maigo6, thankyou.

[arco27]

when I was in preschool in Bangkok 40 years ago I was told to wai at anyone older then me and anyone that commands respect. Nowadays that I spend about 6 month a year here after 30 years in other countries, I still find it appropriate to way at older people or persons that command my respect. I also return all wais, even to children or the check out girl at Tesco or Paragon. Maybe some of my wais make me look foolish, but I think overall my way is appreciated by most of my Thai friends and in general. I little respect and returned courtesy often goes a long way (wai)

[Maigo6]

Keep it civil please Maigo6, thankyou.

Sorry Mr Moderator.

[RAZZELL]

I done a WAI to a bargirl in Soi 6 Pattaya and afterwards got the best head I've ever had

I'm sorry, but that is quite funny

RAZZ