Koh Tao

[highdiver]

Buisiness owners like Claude are free to make their own decisions. If they consistently have bad experiences with one particular group, then it's certainly his decision whether or not to exclude business dealings with said group. It's his money and his business. I don't view it as racist, it's business.

i wonder... if those business owners will will feel the same way if they knew that there was a post or a recommendation spreading around not to come to this business because the owner is French or German. (no offense to either nationality just given as an example) would that be good for business as well??

[Jingthing]

It is especially offensive to target Jewish people this way, especially Europeans. Haven't you learned from history?

[teej]

Jingthing, there will always be some argument similar to yours re: business practices such as Claude's.

"So this girl broke up with me, now is it right to hate all girls!?!"

or

"A tuk tuk driver ripped me off, now is it right to hate all thais?!!?!?"

Frankly, you're always going to be able to come up with something to question the "fairness" of something such as Claude's decisions.

But we're not in the post-adolescent-idealistic stage of life anymore, at least most of us. And some of our experiences affect our future decisions. To what degree you allow them to influence your character could be the difference between "racism,""classism," whatever, and just an informed choice.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, right. I don't know how some of you can look at yourselves in the mirror.

[teej]

Buisiness owners like Claude are free to make their own decisions. If they consistently have bad experiences with one particular group, then it's certainly his decision whether or not to exclude business dealings with said group. It's his money and his business. I don't view it as racist, it's business.

i wonder... if those business owners will will feel the same way if they knew that there was a post or a recommendation spreading around not to come to this business because the owner is French or German. (no offense to either nationality just given as an example) would that be good for business as well??

You never know highdiver. If French or German buisiness owners on Samui have a bad reputation (deseved or not), then whatever is spreading around the internet regarding these guys would be backed up by experience, otherwise it's just bashing the French or German owners for bashing's sake.

It is highly likely that Claude's business is doing better because of his "restrictions." He may lose his potential Israeli clients, but at a minimal cost.

Now for Japan not to sell cars to the USA because they hate round eyes would have an affect on business surely to the point where they'd have to do business whether they liked it or not.

Let's not be overly idealistic here.

[Jingthing]

Or overly racist or anti-semitic either.

[teej]

Or overly racist or anti-semitic either.

Why makes Claude's business decision so clearly racist and anti-semitic to you?

He said he's had problems with Israeli guys at his place. He said he doesn't have problems with Scandies, etc. So he's making a business decision. It's not like he's out there waving the Nazi flag calling for genocide. He's just a <deleted> small business owner.

[mssabai]

Or overly racist or anti-semitic either.

Hang on, and I don't particularly agree with the "No Israelis" thing, but having a grudge against Israelis in no way makes you anti semitic. Being against the French would not make me anti catholic would it?

[samuibeachcomber]

No Israeli bashing - I just try to understand:

Israelis are not only surrounded by their muslim enemies but they also have a very though time at the army. While coming here for holidays after army service some of them might have no experience on how to deal nicely with locals or with other farangs because they are still aggressive and suspicious against foreigners.

DO ME A FAVOUR!................these poor israeli army guys,come on jerks are jerks whoever they are

[highdiver]

Buisiness owners like Claude are free to make their own decisions. If they consistently have bad experiences with one particular group, then it's certainly his decision whether or not to exclude business dealings with said group. It's his money and his business. I don't view it as racist, it's business.

i wonder... if those business owners will will feel the same way if they knew that there was a post or a recommendation spreading around not to come to this business because the owner is French or German. (no offense to either nationality just given as an example) would that be good for business as well??

You never know highdiver. If French or German buisiness owners on Samui have a bad reputation (deseved or not), then whatever is spreading around the internet regarding these guys would be backed up by experience, otherwise it's just bashing the French or German owners for bashing's sake.

It is highly likely that Claude's business is doing better because of his "restrictions." He may lose his potential Israeli clients, but at a minimal cost.

Now for Japan not to sell cars to the USA because they hate round eyes would have an affect on business surely to the point where they'd have to do business whether they liked it or not.

Let's not be overly idealistic here.

I agree with you on the concept but not the details.

if a tourist had a bad experience with a German or french hotel owner and decided that "all" hotels owned by german and french should be boycotted.... then it the same example i was giving.

i wonder how those hotel managers will feel if an inquiry for reservation would also inquire as to the nationality of the owner or manager and then replied"sorry" we don't stay at hotels owned or manged by this nationality.

the fact that a hotel owner who services public decides to avoid guests based on nationality is racist. As much as if tourist will avoid a hotel just because it is owned by a German or a french.

no matter how you try to rationalize it at the end of the day any decision taken against a group of people based on nationality religion etc.. is racist.

I think if you dig hard enough you may find that the same people who tend to be racist towards others and give out the best explanations for it are the same ones that are first to be offended and often complain when they get the same treatment from racist Thais.

[samuibeachcomber]

That did'nt take long for the "racist" word to crop up did it????!!!!

No, just telling it the way i see it. Simple. (ask a Thai what they think...i just did) Same Same.

Are you a little racist??

Well in that case, most business people in KS are racists If we hear or see the word "Israel", we say "fully booked", try KPG.

It is a sad fact that 50 % of the Israeli's cause problems, from which 25 % quite serious ones. Has nothing to do with racism, we just try to protect our business and other customers.

I don't understand very well this attitude against Israeli people. After that we'll start to complain about russian, italians, arabs, etc.? Which country do you prefere?? Only white people? From some country only? Do you write outside your business "Israeli not Welcome"?

I simply think there is some bad apple everywhere. But not for this you can generalize a whole country is not welcome.

And, Marcus, "f we hear or see the word "Israel", we say "fully booked", try KPG. ", I think better talk for yourself and not for the whole community.

I repeat, it sounds to me like racism.

It is simple : let's say Scandinavians, Germans, French, Americans, Australians, Hong Kong, South Africa and the rest of the world - almost never problems, Israeli's : many problems. No, we don't have a sign "Israeli not welcome". But, with limited rooms in my hotel, I prefer to give the room to everyone except an Israeli - sorry, but that's a pure business decision. And if I say "we", this means I can not even provide a decent service to Israeli customers.... The car rental company we use refuses Israeli's, same same for the motorbikes and several tours.

I really feel sorry that it has to be like this : there are a lot of Israeli's visiting Thailand, but they have really to many rotten apples, like the OP found out. I also want to mention that over the years I met many very nice people from Israel, but due to the behavior of some idiots, we have to take these drastic measures.

GOOD FOR YOU(there's not a person on thai visa who is not a little racsist in some way if they are honest with themselves)

[teej]

By that account then, highdiver, everybody on ThaiVisa is pretty much "racist" against the Thais. So many threads about "don't date this type' "stay away" "i dont' want some somchai fixing my car" "can somebody build my house, my father in law is trying to take advantage of me" all of these things could be considered "racist" if define with a broad enough stroke.

Making a decision based on nothing is one thing. Making decisions based on experience is another.

For somebody so idealistic like jingthing, he's very quick to judge and label. Claude doesn't house Israelis? Racist? Teej sees Claudes reasoning as it pertains to his bottom line? Racist. He doesn't know a thing about Claude or me, and yet he's oh so quick to judge and even throw in the "I don't know how you look at yourselves in the mirror" as if we're skinhead serial killers. Calling somebody "racist" is a pretty hefty charge.

[highdiver]

and on the same note and logic ....

there is not a Thai person in Thailand who is not a little racist in some ways if he is really honest with himself....

so all those foreign little racist will not be offended anymore when a Thai little racist gives them bad service or refuses them based on the fact that they are foreign nationals from a certain country.

[highdiver]

By that account then, highdiver, everybody on ThaiVisa is pretty much "racist" against the Thais. So many threads about "don't date this type' "stay away" "i dont' want some somchai fixing my car" "can somebody build my house, my father in law is trying to take advantage of me" all of these things could be considered "racist" if define with a broad enough stroke.

Making a decision based on nothing is one thing. Making decisions based on experience is another.

For somebody so idealistic like jingthing, he's very quick to judge and label. Claude doesn't house Israelis? Racist? Teej sees Claudes reasoning as it pertains to his bottom line? Racist. He doesn't know a thing about Claude or me, and yet he's oh so quick to judge and even throw in the "I don't know how you look at yourselves in the mirror" as if we're skinhead serial killers. Calling somebody "racist" is a pretty hefty charge.

i can not speak on JINGTHING behalf and i don't think you should discuss him personally. we can debate the issue with out getting personal.

There are indeed many racist posts on Thai visa. many of them are plain Thai bashing...

if you don't like a certain shop and want people to avoid it is fair to do so but if you advise people not to go to a shop because the owner is from a certain nationality because you think all those from the same nationality are jerks then its racist.

if a certain hotel manager decides that he does not want young backpackers but would rater have older people its ok but then that decision is only based on nationality its racist.

i total respect those owners can do what ever they want.. its their business and they can make any decisions they want...

i hope they too will respect the decision of tourists not to come to the hotel because the owner is from a nationality they don't like.

[teej]

no matter how you try to rationalize it at the end of the day any decision taken against a group of people based on nationality religion etc.. is racist.

That depends on whether the decision was based on some sort of information.

Consider this:

You MUST loan out your LIFE SAVINGS to 2 out of 3 people. The only thing you know about them is their Nationality. You must exclude one person:

Person 1: Swedish

Person 2: Japanese

Person 3: Nigerian

Which 2 are you gonna chose? Everybody knows the answer whether or not they admit it or not, so fine, everybody is a little "racist." Don't kid yourself here.

Then consider you have more information:

Person 1: Swedish - drunk, rapist, theif, murderer

Person 2: Japanese - former banker, now a monk, started free veterinary clinic.

Person 3: Nigerian - successful businessman with law degree, takes on pro bono law cases on the side and has a children's charity among others.

Which 2 are you going to choose now? Again, everybody knows the answer. This time the decision has nothing to do with nationality, the decision is based on other information.

I'm not going to argue the idea of "racism" on this thread, that wasn't the point. My friend is doing fine now, his stitches came out today - and like I said before, we're probably not going to hang out with some Israeli dudes on an island anytime soon. That must make us totally racist.

[Jingthing]

Hang on, and I don't particularly agree with the "No Israelis" thing, but having a grudge against Israelis in no way makes you anti semitic. Being against the French would not make me anti catholic would it?

Your logic doesn't follow. France is a multi-culti country with alot of Catholics. There are scores of other countries with lots of Catholics. Israel, on the other hand, is the one and only Jewish state in the history of the modern world, and Jews happen to be a people (a tiny minority, less than 1 percent of the world) who have experienced persecution and genocide for thousands of years. Get the difference now between France and Israel? Good.

no matter how you try to rationalize it at the end of the day any decision taken against a group of people based on nationality religion etc.. is racist.

Well, mostly but not exactly. If you discriminated against Americans, it wouldn't really be racist because America is not identified by a specific race or religion. Israel is. The Vatican is.

GOOD FOR YOU(there's not a person on thai visa who is not a little racsist in some way if they are honest with themselves)

That is probably true. But our better selves should RESIST taking action on the sickness that is racism. Idealistic? Maybe.

BTW, if a guesthouse made a policy, no groups of backpackers over five people because they are afraid they can't control that many wild young people, that is a reasonable and fair business decision. No Israelis. That is anti-semitism.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[Barolo69]

I'm lucky enough to live near a nice resort on Koh Phangan, the only rule they have on their resort is "NO ISRAELIS", all they do is complain, complain, complain, complain.

They do national service with the military in their country and from day 1 to the day they leave, it is engrained into them "YOU ARE THE GREATEST, YOU ARE THE GREATEST, YOU ARE THE GREATEST", then they come out all hyped up and come to Thailand. I have unfortunatly seen a few fights here on Koh Phangan and 80% are started by the Israeli's. I have also seen in the past some resorts (which will remain nameless) also put under their resort name "Israeli's Not Welcome". And when I have been to meet friends at the pier I see most of the touts giving them a wide birth too.

This is unfortunate as I have met some rearly nice Israeli people and it's a shame that some of their idiotic country folk ruin it for the rest of them. When will they ever learn? Maybe one day someone will teach them a lesson the won't forget. Let them cross a few Chelsea supporters, they'll give them a lesson they won't forget.

I haven't been to Koh Tao for 4 years, maybe 3.5 to be more precise.

My American/Thai friend and his Brasilian girlfriend are in BKK visiting and I suggested Koh Tao as I don't like particularly like Samui or PG. They wanted to go to one of these islands.

He came back to BKK beaten to all hel_l. HUGE cut over his eye, black eye, broken tooth, broken rib, and just looking like hel_l. His gf had a bruise on her arm in the exact shape of a grip of fingers.

They said they were walking down the beach (from Koh Tao Cabana) and when they got to the area more densely populated (with beach candles and people drinking) a group of guys were making comments to his gf. "Hey you" whisling, laughing, just being obnoxious he says. He turned to approach and a Thai guy came up to him and said "No. No" My friend speaks Thai and asked "Tummai? (why?). The Thai then said "mai thong dee gwa, chua tuh" which is like "don't do it, trust me." Then the Thai guy said "puak Israel, mai yoong dee gwa" which is "Israeali, better not to bother."

Well I guess one of the guys had gotten up and grabbed his gf's arm and was saying some shit that pissed off my friend. Push, shove, and then as he describes, "It was like they all jumped me at once, kicking punching, who knows, I can't even remember" (he doesn't drink btw).

Thai guys helped drag my friend out and his gf was screaming and yelling at the Israeli guys and she said they were just talking more shit and laughing.

My friend didn't even go to the hospital there, just went back to his room, and came back to BKK the next day and I took him to the hospital as soon as I saw him. I feel so bad for recommending Koh Tao, because of what happened. He really doing anything at all (and I believe him) and he got jumped. I know this is just one incident, but what makes me wonder is that since the Thai guy said "don't do it, trust me" and "Israelis, better not bother" that must mean that the Thai guy must have had some previous experience.

I've heard about the Israelis on Hadrin, etc, but on Koh Tao?! It's not a "rowdy" place, at least I didn't think so. I'm not knocking Israelis (except for the fckers that beat up my friend), but have the "rowdy" crowd moved in to Koh Tao nowadays?

[Jingthing]

With racist business owners like that about, I would say the Israelis have good grounds to complain.

I am sure there are indeed plenty of bad apple Israelis, but can you imagine arriving at an island and seeing signs like that about your race/religion, especially assuming you are a reasonable person?

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[ClaudeFeller]

With racist business owners like that about, I would say the Israelis have good grounds to complain.

I am sure there are indeed plenty of bad apple Israelis, but can you imagine arriving at an island and seeing signs like that about your race/religion, especially assuming you are a reasonable person?

You have no idea of what you are talking.

The signs have a reason and dont mention racism or anti-whatever. Rubbish.

I dont rent my holiday homes to either Israelis or British youths because I am too much bored to repair everything, to paint the whole walls and to clean out their rubbish. They cost me more than they had to pay me. And they enjoyed to discuss refund because the grid power was failing for 1 hour (yes, Israelis!!).

I need money to survive, I am not crazy and I have three kids - no reason to rent to youth peoples without respect for myself and for my holiday homes. BTW I would not rent to Thais or to Arabs for the same kind of reasons. Understand or call me racist for not making business with several nationalities. I am not.

[Jingthing]

Excuse me, do the signs say No Israelis or do they say No Rowdy Youths? Perhaps I have this wrong and they are not SCAPEGOATING Jews. If so, I apologize.

Or perhaps you do not acknowledge that to most people, Israeli = Jewish state = Jews

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[teej]

Excuse me, do the signs say No Israelis or do they say No Rowdy Youths? Perhaps I have this wrong and they are not SCAPEGOATING Jews. If so, I apologize.

Or perhaps you do not acknowledge that to most people, Israeli = Jewish state = Jews

BTW, if a guesthouse made a policy, no groups of backpackers over five people because they are afraid they can't control that many wild young people, that is a reasonable and fair business decision. No Israelis. That is anti-semitism.

Jingthing, you're confusing discrimination with "racism." And you're in fact saying that discrimination is ok when it applies to your backpacker example but not ok (and up the rating to "anti-semitism" when it comes Israelis). The backpacker example is discrimination as is the other case, you just didn't add that the inference in the "No Israelis" case exactly similar to the backpacker case, aka "they are afriad they can't control them."

No backpackers over five people = discrimination

No Israelis = discrimination

No backpackers over five people because we haven't been able to control them = business decision

No Israelis because in our experience they trash our rooms and complain = business decision

Next issue:

Race? First of all, no such word. Period full stop. Per your example above Israeli = Jewish = Jews and you're touting "racism" against Israelis which is tantamount (according to your equation) to saying "racism" agains Jews. So Jews are a "race" now? Pray do tell how many "races" there are in this "racist" world of yours, and please name these "races."

[teej]

Another thing Jingthing:

Since you brought up the word "scapegoating": The term "racist" is the biggest scapegoat of them all. Utterly abused and totally contrived out of convenience to describe what people can't grasp as ethnic differences.

It's just far too easy to throw down the word "racist" and have the PC crowd clam up in fear, isn't it? It's the people with the least understanding of cultural/ethnic differences (and dare I say, the World) that throw around the word "racist" because in contemporary culture it's such a loaded word.

You jump so quickly to cry "racist" and confound real issues as those of "race." To me, that's a sign that you've shown your cards. Your statements defiantly imply ignorance in others, but in fact the truth is that what you say and how you say it only reveals your own ignorance.

And I'd lke to hear your answer to the question I posed above: Pray do tell how many "races" there are in this "racist" world of yours, and please name these "races."

[OriginalPoster]

Excuse me, do the signs say No Israelis or do they say No Rowdy Youths? Perhaps I have this wrong and they are not SCAPEGOATING Jews. If so, I apologize.

Or perhaps you do not acknowledge that to most people, Israeli = Jewish state = Jews

BTW, if a guesthouse made a policy, no groups of backpackers over five people because they are afraid they can't control that many wild young people, that is a reasonable and fair business decision. No Israelis. That is anti-semitism.

Jingthing, you're confusing discrimination with "racism." And you're in fact saying that discrimination is ok when it applies to your backpacker example but not ok (and up the rating to "anti-semitism" when it comes Israelis). The backpacker example is discrimination as is the other case, you just didn't add that the inference in the "No Israelis" case exactly similar to the backpacker case, aka "they are afriad they can't control them."

No backpackers over five people = discrimination

No Israelis = discrimination

No backpackers over five people because we haven't been able to control them = business decision

No Israelis because in our experience they trash our rooms and complain = business decision

Next issue:

Race? First of all, no such word. Period full stop. Per your example above Israeli = Jewish = Jews and you're touting "racism" against Israelis which is tantamount (according to your equation) to saying "racism" agains Jews. So Jews are a "race" now? Pray do tell how many "races" there are in this "racist" world of yours, and please name these "races."

Suppose I run a business and put up a sign that says "no blacks allowed", would that be discrimination, racism, or a business decision?

I'm a little surpised how right wing the people are on this forum. I've certainly heard the argument that "this is a free country, I have the right to discriminate against anyone that I want" before, but generally those words have come from toothless American southeners and not from supposedly enlightened and well-educated Europeans and Australians.

[Jingthing]

No backpackers over five people = discrimination

No Israelis = discrimination

I think most intelligent people will be able to tell the obvious difference between these two things.

One is based on a mode of travel that tends to attract lower end spenders and youth, of ALL races, religions, and nationalities.

The other specifically scapegoats anyone of any age of any travel mode from the one and only Jewish state in modern history.

And yes, thanks, for the blacks example. To say no Israelis means No Jews and is just as offensive as no blacks. If you think either is acceptable, well, be prepared to be judged as a hater.

This difference speaks for itself.

BTW, to those who condone these religion/race based policies, do you really really want to be associated with what that means, considering history?

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[teej]

Suppose I run a business and put up a sign that says "no blacks allowed", would that be discrimination, racism, or a business decision?

And yes, thanks, for the blacks example. To say no Israelis means No Jews and is just as offensive as no blacks.

I figured somebody would think they are smart and go this route. Don't be ridiculous and try to apply thousands of years of history (in the case of Israel) and hundreds of years (in the case of blacks) to the issue we are discussing about Koh Samui, KPG, or Koh Tao. It's like grabbing for straws and trying to pull the "racist" card again. Samui has no history of ethnic conflict as it pertains to Israelis or blacks or whatever.

15 years ago I doubt any Thai resident of Samui knew what "Israel" was and had probably never even heard of the word. Between then and now, I doubt they've been reading Nazi propaganda and subscribing to anti-semite newsletters and reading up on their new hatred of Jews. What happend then?

What happened was that in that short period of time, the residents of Samui had had enough bad encounters with Israelis for them to formulate their own opinion of them, based on nothing but their behavior, not some radical "racist" "anti-semite" agenda as you would so love to believe. Of course there were some good Israelis I'm sure, but clearly the bad were bad enough for the residents of Samui to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So in a short period of time, one groups bad behaviours have made them out of favor with the residents (even moreso than any drunk Brits, whoever) strictly on the basis of their consistently poor behavior. As I'm sure the residents of Samui aren't Nazi sympathizers, they have come up with their conclusion based on what was happening in front of their eyes, and hence made their business decisions, not based on any historical "racism" or other radical belief that you'd like to appoint to them, but just from a lot of bad experience with one very specific group of people.

To try to apply examples from hundreds/thousands of years of conflict among groups to this situation in Samui is ridiculous and won't work.

Go ahead and keep trying to pull out examples of the "race" card - but it simply doesn't apply to Samui/KPG/Tao.

[MSingh]

Another thing Jingthing:

Since you brought up the word "scapegoating": The term "racist" is the biggest scapegoat of them all. Utterly abused and totally contrived out of convenience to describe what people can't grasp as ethnic differences.

It's just far too easy to throw down the word "racist" and have the PC crowd clam up in fear, isn't it? It's the people with the least understanding of cultural/ethnic differences (and dare I say, the World) that throw around the word "racist" because in contemporary culture it's such a loaded word.

You jump so quickly to cry "racist" and confound real issues as those of "race." To me, that's a sign that you've shown your cards. Your statements defiantly imply ignorance in others, but in fact the truth is that what you say and how you say it only reveals your own ignorance.

And I'd lke to hear your answer to the question I posed above: Pray do tell how many "races" there are in this "racist" world of yours, and please name these "races."

Best & most realistic, sensible & truthful post i've seen for a long while on ANY Forum topped off with a question that will maybe prove that the Poster who the question is directed at, is talking out of their bottom & look rather silly & rightly so as, coming from someone who has been an ethnic minority for all of his Life ( but now argubly a majority in East London ), the race card does ghet thrown around FAR too easily by both sides of the coin, the people who are " alleged " victims of racism, & 2 bob PC Imbeciles who use the term to try to make a point as they haven't got any other valid pioint to actually raise or win them an arguement, thumbs down to both ..

Edited August 1, 2008 by MSingh

[OriginalPoster]

[Jingthing]

Yes, but are you European? Then, you can, can't you?

Translation: Jews are not welcome here

Best & most realistic, sensible & truthful post i've seen for a long while on ANY Forum topped off with a question that will maybe prove that the Poster who the question is directed at, is talking out of their bottom & look rather silly..wink.gif

Funny, that read like total GIBBERISH to me, and didn't even seem worthy of a reply. You have to have a reasoned argument if you expect a rebuttal.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[angiud]

From Barolo 69: "Maybe one day someone will teach them a lesson the won't forget. Let them cross a few Chelsea supporters, they'll give them a lesson they won't forget."

You are a fascist.

And racists are who say not to rent to thai, arab, israeli etc etc

And last, I don't understand why any moderator, or admin, or whatever, don't take any position on an a subject I think interesting and important.

[teej]

I see you've lowered yourself to posting what amounts to propaganda. Simple fact of the matter is your precious "race" argument does not apply in the Samuian case.

And before you go on, please answer my simple question that I've kindly asked you twice to answer:

Pray do tell how many "races" there are in this "racist" world of yours, and please name these "races."

Your refusal to answer the question, a question that your whole rant of "race" and "racism" is based upon will only indicate to me that we are on different intellectual levels, perhaps in orders of magnitude.

I won't reply until you've addressed this question, and you can keep posting examples of "hate" from other societies and other times that have absolutely nothing to do with Samui. Like I said, you've shown your cards. Throwing around the word "racism" so defiantly yet so casually just solidifies your ignorance in the matter.