Why Are Their So Many Ladyboys In Thailand ?

[lannarebirth]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

I know they're not the same thing. I think it has to do with a very small lack of differentiation between the sexes here, whereby a 21 year old woman here can look pretty similar to an 11 year old boy from many of our home countries. It's an androgenous culture, but people don't seem to like that answer as it seems to them like THEY are being judged for THEIR choice in partner, which I'm not doing. A couple people that have visited here a couple of times say that it's not so, but I'm not prepared to take their word for it.

Edited August 3, 2008 by lannarebirth

[TheDon]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

I know they're not the same thing. I think it has to do with a very small lack of differentiation between the sexes here, whereby a 21 year old woman here can look pretty similar to an 11 year old boy from many of our home countries. It's an androgenous culture, but people don't seem to like that answer as it seems to them like THEY are being judged for THEIR choice in partner, which I'm not doing. A couple people that have visited here a couple of times say that it's not so, but I'm not prepared to take their word for it.

I have no idea what your even talking about? Your saying a 21 year olf girl looks like a 11 year old farang boy? What the hel_l are you on about? Actually its probably better that you dont tell me.

[sgtpeppers]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

hey man. you got to loosen up.

just cos you and a few others stamp your feet and say they are different doesnt make it so.

we can agree to disagree, im happy with that. are you ?

[Ulysses G.]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

I have nothing against gays - I think that it is biological - and a lot of respect for Jingthing, but I am also pretty sure that all of this stuff about ladyboys and gays being so different is mostly trendy nonsense. They are all homosexuals, but have just chosen different ways to express it due to current styles. It is more fashionable nowdays to dress up like manly men and shag each other senseless, but if they were born in another era, they would have all been wearing dresses and lipstick and calling themselves "she".

Edited August 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

The mods have made it clear this thread is to be kept to the topic of LADYBOYS. I wrote what I thought were some very inspired posts about the theories of homosexuality when it did go there, and then they were all deleted. The mods have spoken that they agree with me: LADYBOY topic. Not homosexuality topics. And if you refuse to understand that a man who cuts off his dick and/or becomes the role of a WOMAN is NOT anything like a man who loves other men, then you are in my view HOMOPHOBIC and just married to your IGNORANCE. Now I do realize there are levels of ladyboys. Those who feel compelled to cut their dick off, some not. But I am telling you, ask any homosexual who is not a ladyboy if they have ever even THOUGHT of cutting off their dick! They haven't, I can assure you. In your hetero-centric view, a ladyboy is just MORE gay than a masculine gay men. No, that is not correct. They are totally different phenoms. You don't know. Homos know and ladyboys know, a hetero cannot know, so maybe you will learn something, maybe you won't.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Jingthing

[sgtpeppers]

hey jingthing.

Just a reminder from the original post..............

and quoted from a THAI TRANSGENDER CAMPAIGNER of all people

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7529227.stm

<snip>

I asked Suttirat Simsiriwong, who became a campaigner for transgender rights after she was barred entry to a nightclub at an international hotel in Bangkok last year.

Poised, articulate and very feminine, it is hard to tell that she was not born a woman.

"Maybe the numbers of gays, of people with sexual identity issues, might be the same as in other countries," said Suttirat, "but because Thai society and culture tend to be very sweet, very soft, and the men can be really feminine, if we tend to be gay, many of us tend to be transgender."

<snip>

[Jingthing]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

[lannarebirth]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

I know they're not the same thing. I think it has to do with a very small lack of differentiation between the sexes here, whereby a 21 year old woman here can look pretty similar to an 11 year old boy from many of our home countries. It's an androgenous culture, but people don't seem to like that answer as it seems to them like THEY are being judged for THEIR choice in partner, which I'm not doing. A couple people that have visited here a couple of times say that it's not so, but I'm not prepared to take their word for it.

I have no idea what your even talking about? Your saying a 21 year olf girl looks like a 11 year old farang boy? What the hel_l are you on about? Actually its probably better that you dont tell me.

Hi Don,

Hey, you ever take a close look at a Buddha statue?

[OriginalPoster]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

You're starting to sound like a hyperventilating liberal. Why is confounding homosexuality and transgenderism so offensive to you, what is the big deal?

Edited August 3, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[Ulysses G.]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

This is also a load of fashionable PC bullsh*t. I lived in San Francisco for almost 20 years during the Gay Power days and 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps. What they are is obvious, which is why I think that it is biological.

They often dress up all macho like The Village People, but as soon as they talk, it becomes obvious that they are screamers.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[TheDon]

Here you guys go again! Confusing the etiology of homosexuality and the etiology of transgenders as if they are the SAME thing. They are not! BTW, the USA has a huge percentage of single parent homes with the mother as the only parent, and absent always at work father homes, and yet not exactly ladyboy central. This topic is supposed to be about LADYBOYS and why Thailand has so many visible ones which of course they do, not homos. Is it impossible for people to learn this fact that homosexuality and transgenders are NOT the same thing? Why are you people so SLOW?

I know they're not the same thing. I think it has to do with a very small lack of differentiation between the sexes here, whereby a 21 year old woman here can look pretty similar to an 11 year old boy from many of our home countries. It's an androgenous culture, but people don't seem to like that answer as it seems to them like THEY are being judged for THEIR choice in partner, which I'm not doing. A couple people that have visited here a couple of times say that it's not so, but I'm not prepared to take their word for it.

I have no idea what your even talking about? Your saying a 21 year olf girl looks like a 11 year old farang boy? What the hel_l are you on about? Actually its probably better that you dont tell me.

Hi Don,

Hey, you ever take a close look at a Buddha statue?

nope? but you sound a little twisted. Please stop talking to me. I find it weird that you think od 11 year old boys when you see a 21 year old girl.

[cophen]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

This is also a load of fashionable PC bullsh*t. I lived in San Francisco for almost 20 years during the Gay Power days and 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps. What they are is obvious, which is why I think that it is biological.

They often dress up all macho like The Village People, but as soon as they talk, it becomes obvious that they are screamers.

How can you tell that 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps? Are you simply assuming that all men who aren't effeminate and/or don't have lisps are straight? You are very very wrong.

[TheDon]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

This is also a load of fashionable PC bullsh*t. I lived in San Francisco for almost 20 years during the Gay Power days and 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps. What they are is obvious, which is why I think that it is biological.

They often dress up all macho like The Village People, but as soon as they talk, it becomes obvious that they are screamers.

How can you tell that 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps? Are you simply assuming that all men who aren't effeminate and/or don't have lisps are straight? You are very very wrong.

Well they definately walk a little different. But im not sure if that is caused my something else. But IMO ladyboy are just gay men who have taken it to the extreme. Some are just more gay they others which leads them to want to be ladyboys

[farang prince]

Maybe it has something to do with so many boys here in Thailand being brought up without their fathers around -- lack of strong male role models, hence effeminate behaviour -- that's a possibility, don't you think?

This is my Thai wife's opinion and I think there's some merit in it...

Well it would have merit if it were correct. But it is not. If ladyboys were the result of a lack of role models, then half the young men in the United States would be ladyboys because more than 50% of American marriages end up in divorce. Lots of boys are brought up in female dominated families, but are totally straight. This happens the world over. I think the reason there are so many ladyboys in Thailand is that the "third sex" has always had a place in Thai culture. As a result, transgendered people are accepted in Thai society (perhaps tolerated is a better word) and so the social barriers that prevent many young men in other countries from becoming a transsexual do not exist here.

My wife is a Thai ladyboy who knew at the age of 6 that she wanted to be a woman. This is consistent with what other ladyboys have told me...not just in Thailand but also in Brazil and the Philippines. My wife has a loving family. A father who was at home and had a respectable job...a mother who was a businesswoman and an older brother who was also a ladyboy. My wife's older brother is now completely transgendered and is dean of a college in Isaan. My wife became an entertainer when she was 18 and was a headline performer at a cabaret show in Bangkok when we met. She has travelled extensively to China, Japan and England.

The simple fact is that you can't pigeonhole ladyboys any more than you can pigeonhole straight people or gays or bisexuals. They are human beings and each is unique. The vast majority of ladyboys don't decide to change their gender because "they can make more money in the sex industry" as several idiots on this board have said. Rather, some of them gravitate into the sex industry because they can't find suitable work elsewhere...the same reason other Thais (women and men) go into the sex industry.

It is a very difficult life. If a ladyboy is lucky, they will find a man who will "accept them for what they are." This is not easy. Usually the partners of ladyboys are straight or bisexual men. Gay men are not attracted to ladyboys because gay men are attracted to other men. In fact, transsexuals and gay men really belong in totally different categories and it is an ongoing source of irritation to gays that they are lumped together with ladyboys. Most ladyboys in Thailand have a close set of other transsexual friends along with straight women and some gay men.

One thing most ladyboys have in common is that they are highly narcissistic. The Farang Princess will spend several hours in front of a mirror before going out in public. In fact, one of the funniest things I have ever witnessed was the Farang Princess and three of her ladyboy friends getting into an argument about who was going to hail a taxi during a classic Bangkok rainstorm. As I watched from our balcony of the condo, I could see that there were only two umbrellas for the four ladyboys and whoever ventured out from underneath the awning to flag down the taxi was going to get soaking wet and their makeup was going to run. No one wanted to move. It was classic. Finally they talked a passerby into flagging down the cab.

About once every three months someone starts a thread about Thai ladyboys. The is a boring commonality to these threads. First, you get those people who are really insecure about their sexuality posting sarcastic and nasty comments about ladyboys. Then you get the quasi-intellectuals who will expound on thier "learned" opinions about why a person chooses to be a transsexual or why men love them. Their theories are laughable but at least these quasi-intellectuals will be happy that they have illustrated their great intelligence. Third, you get those people who use the topic of ladyboys to post negative comments about Thailand. And fourth, you get the occasional person who really knows the world of ladyboys and tries to post something that will educate other posters about "The Third Sex" in this wonderful land. These posts usually get ignored or the poster is the target of a lot of negative comments.

Since so many posters seem to enjoy reading about ladyboys, I would suggest that when they are in Thailand, they actually go out of their way to meet one or two. They won't bite (at least while in conversation) and you might actually learn something.

[Ulysses G.]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

This is also a load of fashionable PC bullsh*t. I lived in San Francisco for almost 20 years during the Gay Power days and 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps. What they are is obvious, which is why I think that it is biological.

They often dress up all macho like The Village People, but as soon as they talk, it becomes obvious that they are screamers.

How can you tell that 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps? Are you simply assuming that all men who aren't effeminate and/or don't have lisps are straight? You are very very wrong.

Because gays in San Francisco don't try to hide it, and in 20 years, I met only one or two guys who were gay that were not overly effeminate in a very obvious way. I have met a small number of straight men who are overly effeminate in this manner, but I would guess that quite a few of them are just hiding the truth from themselves and a few just had very bad luck.

I'm not saying that there are no exeptions to this rule, but gays who naturally act the same as heterosexual men are few and far between.

[Jingthing]

Excellent post, Prince. That says almost everything.

Someone asked me why I care to be sure people realize that regular gay men are different than transgendered males.

The reason is because of homophobia and anti-female prejudice in most world cultures, including Thailand.

The heterosexual power structure is offended by gay men, not just because of their obsessive disgust with anal sex, but also because they can't fathom how a man would give up his power position in a society where men are on top, women on the bottom. So they label gay men as women, and they hate gay men.

All I am saying is that gay men are MEN. Men who love men. Hate us or don't understand us but we are not women and we don't WANT to be women.

Transgender people DO want to be women, or at least play the female role, again I am talking socially and appearance, not anal sex positions.

That said, to be clear, I am for equal rights and understanding for ALL sexualities, gay, straight, trannies, whatever as long as it is consensual and doesn't hurt people. Cheers.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

Befrore there was makeup, pharmaceutically prescribed hormones and modern surgery what was the chief difference in practice between a gay man and a ladyboy?

[Jingthing]

Befrore there was makeup, pharmaceutically prescribed hormones and modern surgery what was the chief difference in practice between a gay man and a ladyboy?

Look, tranny people will usually say and think: I am a woman in man's body.

Regular gay men do not say or think this.

This is INTERNAL, psychological, so your question is not even cogent. If the tranny has the means and desire to make what is inside his head SHOW up on the outside of his head, good for he/she if he/she wants it.

But the regular gay man is a he/he not a he/she. He knows inside that he is man, he is different than heteros because he is drawn sexually and in love relationships to other males.

I find it amazing that people are not getting and accepting this. It just shows how deeply ingrained homophobia is in some of you.

Two other points:

I admit I am talking in generalities. Every person's sexuality is different. Every CULTURE is different. There are true bisexuals. There are degrees and levels for every sexuality. There are hyper masculine gay men and hyper feminine straight, and v.v. And if I have sounded like I am attempting to speak for all gay men, I apologize, because that is not my intention. And I certainly can't speak for ANY ladyboy or any lover of a ladyboy because I am nothing like a ladyboy and I would never have any attraction to any ladyboy as I do not fancy WOMEN! BTW, if I ever got really drunk and decided to "walk on the wild side" and try out sex with a female, it would be a REAL woman with REAL lady stuff!

Edited August 3, 2008 by Jingthing

[Shotime]

I was just going to tell him the same thing.

In answer to the OP's question, are there a larger number of ladyboys in Thailand than in other countries, and if so, why?

Edited August 3, 2008 by Shotime

[Steve2UK]

I'll add my thanks to Farang Prince for some first-hand "straight-talking" fresh air in a thread that has been depressingly full of noxious re-cycled hot air so far - 230+ posts and 4,500+ viewings. Maybe get ready to cut and paste it the next time the topic comes up?

[TheDon]

I was just going to tell him the same thing.

In answer to the OP's question, are there a larger number of ladyboys in Thailand than in other countries, and if so, why?

I think it has to do with acceptance in Thailand, in australia I know ladyboys get laughed at etc while gay blokes are starting to be accepted hence more blokes are out of the closet then say 20 years ago, same thing with ladyboys, in Thailand they dont get laughed at as much these days and will be accepted. Also I notice a HUGE number of ladyboys around the redlight places, so im sure many go under the knife for the money hence more ladyboys are made for the market.

[Ulysses G.]

The heterosexual power structure is offended by gay men, not just because of their obsessive disgust with anal sex, but also because they can't fathom how a man would give up his power position in a society where men are on top, women on the bottom. So they label gay men as women, and they hate gay men.

Most men over 40 years old were brought up to think that being a homosexual was the worst thing possible for a man to be and people have thought that for centuries. "Queer" was the biggest insult that you could use on someone and you better fight if someone called you one. In fact, at that time most people looked down on gays more than child molesters and they were thought of in much the same way that pedophiles are now.

On top of that, the Christian religion said that every homosexual was sick and would roast in hel_l and we were all Christians (and no one realized that many of the "good" fathers were inclined that way themselves).

It is not easy to get rid of that kind of conditioning in just a few years and questionable but trendy gay rationalizations and propoganda (like quoted above) do nothing to help us understand each other more.

It will be quite some time before homosexuality will be accepted and understood by straights or gays.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[lannarebirth]

Befrore there was makeup, pharmaceutically prescribed hormones and modern surgery what was the chief difference in practice between a gay man and a ladyboy?

Look, tranny people will usually say and think: I am a woman in man's body.

Regular gay men do not say or think this.

This is INTERNAL, psychological, so your question is not even cogent. If the tranny has the means and desire to make what is inside his head SHOW up on the outside of his head, good for he/she if he/she wants it.

But the regular gay man is a he/he not a he/she. He knows inside that he is man, he is different than heteros because he is drawn sexually and in love relationships to other males.

I find it amazing that people are not getting and accepting this. It just shows how deeply ingrained homophobia is in some of you.

Two other points:

I admit I am talking in generalities. Every person's sexuality is different. Every CULTURE is different. There are true bisexuals. There are degrees and levels for every sexuality. There are hyper masculine gay men and hyper feminine straight, and v.v. And if I have sounded like I am attempting to speak for all gay men, I apologize, because that is not my intention. And I certainly can't speak for ANY ladyboy or any lover of a ladyboy because I am nothing like a ladyboy and I would never have any attraction to any ladyboy as I do not fancy WOMEN! BTW, if I ever got really drunk and decided to "walk on the wild side" and try out sex with a female, it would be a REAL woman with REAL lady stuff!

I agree with everything you say, I was just windiing you up. I already gave the reason why it's so prevalent here, but people would much rather believe it's a "gay" issue, because they don't identify themselves as gay and it's easy for then to take potshots.

[lannarebirth]

A few things I didn't know in here:

http://www.cpamedia.com/culture/thailand_kathoey/

[cophen]

And that is your proof, what one Thai person says who isn't even a native English speaker?

Look, if you are talking about EFFEMINATE men, I have met many, and most of them are HETEROSEXUAL.

This is also a load of fashionable PC bullsh*t. I lived in San Francisco for almost 20 years during the Gay Power days and 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps. What they are is obvious, which is why I think that it is biological.

They often dress up all macho like The Village People, but as soon as they talk, it becomes obvious that they are screamers.

How can you tell that 98% of gay men are effeminate and many have lisps? Are you simply assuming that all men who aren't effeminate and/or don't have lisps are straight? You are very very wrong.

Because gays in San Francisco don't try to hide it, and in 20 years, I met only one or two guys who were gay that were not overly effeminate in a very obvious way. I have met a small number of straight men who are overly effeminate in this manner, but I would guess that quite a few of them are just hiding the truth from themselves and a few just had very bad luck.

I'm not saying that there are no exeptions to this rule, but gays who naturally act the same as heterosexual men are few and far between.

Unless you met every gay in San Francisco then your argument doesn't hold water.

[cophen]

Maybe it has something to do with so many boys here in Thailand being brought up without their fathers around -- lack of strong male role models, hence effeminate behaviour -- that's a possibility, don't you think?

This is my Thai wife's opinion and I think there's some merit in it...

Well it would have merit if it were correct. But it is not. If ladyboys were the result of a lack of role models, then half the young men in the United States would be ladyboys because more than 50% of American marriages end up in divorce. Lots of boys are brought up in female dominated families, but are totally straight. This happens the world over. I think the reason there are so many ladyboys in Thailand is that the "third sex" has always had a place in Thai culture. As a result, transgendered people are accepted in Thai society (perhaps tolerated is a better word) and so the social barriers that prevent many young men in other countries from becoming a transsexual do not exist here.

My wife is a Thai ladyboy who knew at the age of 6 that she wanted to be a woman. This is consistent with what other ladyboys have told me...not just in Thailand but also in Brazil and the Philippines. My wife has a loving family. A father who was at home and had a respectable job...a mother who was a businesswoman and an older brother who was also a ladyboy. My wife's older brother is now completely transgendered and is dean of a college in Isaan. My wife became an entertainer when she was 18 and was a headline performer at a cabaret show in Bangkok when we met. She has travelled extensively to China, Japan and England.

The simple fact is that you can't pigeonhole ladyboys any more than you can pigeonhole straight people or gays or bisexuals. They are human beings and each is unique. The vast majority of ladyboys don't decide to change their gender because "they can make more money in the sex industry" as several idiots on this board have said. Rather, some of them gravitate into the sex industry because they can't find suitable work elsewhere...the same reason other Thais (women and men) go into the sex industry.

It is a very difficult life. If a ladyboy is lucky, they will find a man who will "accept them for what they are." This is not easy. Usually the partners of ladyboys are straight or bisexual men. Gay men are not attracted to ladyboys because gay men are attracted to other men. In fact, transsexuals and gay men really belong in totally different categories and it is an ongoing source of irritation to gays that they are lumped together with ladyboys. Most ladyboys in Thailand have a close set of other transsexual friends along with straight women and some gay men.

One thing most ladyboys have in common is that they are highly narcissistic. The Farang Princess will spend several hours in front of a mirror before going out in public. In fact, one of the funniest things I have ever witnessed was the Farang Princess and three of her ladyboy friends getting into an argument about who was going to hail a taxi during a classic Bangkok rainstorm. As I watched from our balcony of the condo, I could see that there were only two umbrellas for the four ladyboys and whoever ventured out from underneath the awning to flag down the taxi was going to get soaking wet and their makeup was going to run. No one wanted to move. It was classic. Finally they talked a passerby into flagging down the cab.

About once every three months someone starts a thread about Thai ladyboys. The is a boring commonality to these threads. First, you get those people who are really insecure about their sexuality posting sarcastic and nasty comments about ladyboys. Then you get the quasi-intellectuals who will expound on thier "learned" opinions about why a person chooses to be a transsexual or why men love them. Their theories are laughable but at least these quasi-intellectuals will be happy that they have illustrated their great intelligence. Third, you get those people who use the topic of ladyboys to post negative comments about Thailand. And fourth, you get the occasional person who really knows the world of ladyboys and tries to post something that will educate other posters about "The Third Sex" in this wonderful land. These posts usually get ignored or the poster is the target of a lot of negative comments.

Since so many posters seem to enjoy reading about ladyboys, I would suggest that when they are in Thailand, they actually go out of their way to meet one or two. They won't bite (at least while in conversation) and you might actually learn something.

Post of the month!

[Ijustwannateach]

This topic is also, I'm afraid, not going to veer into any kind of discussion about pedophilia in Thailand. I think I've made it pretty clear that this is not a thread on which to go off-topic; those who can't take hints will pay a price.

"S"

[stuandchris]

After page 6 of this thread I moved to the end so forgive me if I missed something.

Having been around here for thirty odd years off and on, Katoeys, Kai Tai's whatever are a norm here. Stop trying to put western values of trannies etc onto them.

They are what they are, accept the fun that most nice ones want, avoid the nasty ones and live and let live.

[cophen]

After page 6 of this thread I moved to the end so forgive me if I missed something.

Having been around here for thirty odd years off and on, Katoeys, Kai Tai's whatever are a norm here. Stop trying to put western values of trannies etc onto them.

That's a good answer for a large proportion of the posts that are made on Thaivisa.

[Allyt]

To refer to Thai transgender people and speak in terms directly aligned to their understanding of transgendered individuals in places like the UK & the US, is indeed totally misguided.

Society is radically different and if girls or boys at a young age here in Thailand, feel they wish to live their lives in the gender roles they feel most comfortable with, then society is more accommodating than in any 'western' areas and they are able to live from that early age in that role. In later life they are more adjusted to their role for example, at age 40, the age it seems in recent years that their counterparts in the west have needed to wait until before they feel, wise enough and pained enough, to make that transition to their preferred role.

Sadly in western societies, until only recently in some places, young girls and boys have felt guilty and unable to show their preferred and 'felt' gender until later in life, by which time they are entrenched into their surroundings, attending schools, places of work and even conforming to family value characteristic requirements, for fear of rejection, guilt and without support. These poor folks live a life of turmoil and pain and then, when they are brave enough, they try to make their life 'complete'. It is then, that heartbreaks and agony of the surrounding communities start and the tables are turned upon the situation. The transgender individual is often ostracized and isolated and the families and friends seen stampeding in all directions. It's at this time, if friends & family around the individual have left them, they in turn feel they should be the ones to move on and make a new life somewhere away from their past acquaintances and hope to be able to live their lives a little easier.

Here in Thailand, the turmoil, if any at all, is dealt with earlier in life and family & society just gets on with it. There are no ''jump these hurdles' national health scheme doctors challenging mental stability and questioning the individuals motives. There is no enforced 'Live the role for 2 years' before being able to be prescribed assisting medications and thats before even being considered if 'the system' will help finance any surgery. No, because here, every corner pharmacy sells the medication over the counter and very cheap in comparison. The effect of the meds can be appreciated early in life and as for surgery, why do so many people come to Thailand for their operations? It is a 3rd of the cost and without prescription! However, people in western countries have the ability to change their passports and every other document, to reflect the correct gender. But Thai people cannot. Only recently did the law change enabling divorced women to revert their titles fully back to 'Miss' from 'Mrs', so it might take a while for the gender issue to be tackled.

The term that is inappropriately used so freely when discussing this topic, 'sexuality', is better understood if related to a scale. Hetrosexual is at one end, bisexual in the middle and homosexual at the other end. Some people if they are honest will admit to have experienced various positions along the scale, either in fantasy or reality and some people sway between one end and the other.

People are often confused by others using the term sexuality so often when in fact they should be using the term 'gender' There are only 2 genders, one is female and the other is male. Whether a person is male of female they will have sexual persuasions on the scale above but they still remain male or female. And gender is about what organs you have or do not have.

Having put the above so clearly, it is evident that some folks just don't understand the clothing issue. Clothing is a uniform. It's a means to an end, it provides the tools to complete the job. Here in Thailand, the girl that wants to live as a tom boy needs the short hair & harder looks. But the boy wanting to reveal what he feels is his inner self, brings the uniform out to dress the body and help the role become clearer. However, what we experience here in Thailand with freedom of expression is now becoming mainstream entertainment (Miss Tiffany & tourist/entertainment forms of employment) which then confuses so many inquisitive people and probably confuses those that need order and 'sterotype' to lead their lives.

Thankfully science is now providing evidence to clarify the issue. At least for male to female transsexuals, tests are showing that parts of the brain of M-F transsexuals, once dead and investigated under the microscope, are more recognisable as day1 born females than a male brain. So forget the theory that a M-F transsexual has learned their behaviour and just feeling like they want to wear different clothes.

Well I am glad I got all that down in some semblance of order! I started writing this post as a 2 line response but now I hope you do not think I have lectured you.

Ally