Foreign Exchange Rate When Using An Atm Card

[vagabond48]

I have used SCB for the last 2 years until they decided to charge a 20 baht fee recently and never thought about this until someone mentioned about the different rates posted at banks when exchanging foreign hard currency. I have always assumed that the rates posted were different from ATM rates.

I did a search but didn't see any clear answer to the following question.

If I used my ATM card to withdraw cash from ATM machines of a different banks within the same hour time frame, will I get the same or extremely close exchange rate?

Please read the following before answering,

I would be using a ATM debit card NOT a credit card.

I would be using a card issued to a USA bank through Visa.

My USA bank DOES NOT charge any fee WHATSOEVER.

Visa does charge their current standard 1% foreign exchange fee WHICH MY BANK does not reimburse.

Only include Thai banks that DO NOT charge an ATM fee of any sort when using a foreign ATM card, so SCB would be excluded.

I wanted to make sure that there was no room for assumptions so I can get a clear answer. Hopefully I covered all bases. Please no guessing.

Thanks.

[Daffy D]

I’m in the same situation. Been using SCB ATM to withdraw money from UK account, never worried too much about exchange rate thought it was all about the same.

Since SCB started the 20bt charge I have used Siam City bank ATM as they happen to be just across the road and do not charged the 20bt.

I have since wondered if there was a difference in the banks exchange rate and as it happens as I need to withdraw some money today am going to withdraw half from each bank and see if there is a difference in rate.

Unfortunately the transaction will not show up in my account for a couple of days so will not know till then.

If this subject is still alive in a couple of days I’ll post the results.

[vagabond48]

Unfortunately the transaction will not show up in my account for a couple of days so will not know till then.

If this subject is still alive in a couple of days I’ll post the results.

You sure? When I do an ATM withdrawal, if I go online within an hour, I can see the withdrawal transaction posted. This is at both banks I use. I once logged on within 10 minutes and saw that the balance was reduced although the actual transaction hadn't posted yet.

[Daffy D]

Yes my bank HSBC off shore and it is a couple of days before the transaction shows up on my internet banking.

[vagabond48]

Yes my bank HSBC off shore and it is a couple of days before the transaction shows up on my internet banking.

Both of the banks I use are off shore as well. In fact, one of the "banks" is really a brokerage firm so they offer banking services through another bank.

[JimGant]

Only include Thai banks that DO NOT charge an ATM fee of any sort when using a foreign ATM card, so SCB would be excluded.

Actually, using the same card at SCB plus a bank that doesn't charge an ATM fee (e.g., Bangkok Bank) would be instructive. Why? Because maybe SCB has a lower forex rate that more than makes up for the 20 baht fee, at least at a certain level of withdrawal. And since many ATM issuing financials (including USAA Federal Savings) reimburse fees such as those charged by SCB, you could be ahead in such a situation.

Just add the 20 baht to the withdrawal amount before dividing by the dollar charge and you'll have an accurate comparison of the two banks' forex rates.

And if they differ, well, it says their hidden fees are different. Why? Well, using the same ATM/debit card with the Visa logo at about the same time of day, you should get the same Visa PLUS network wholesale exchange rate from both banks. And, the OP's issuing bank is passing on, in both cases, the 1% Visa PLUS foreign transaction fee. So, any difference between the two banks' forex rates is strictly a difference in their hidden fees for ATM usage.

And to get a feel for what their hidden fees are in absolute, not relative, terms, go to this site to get the baseline for measuring actual fees (after adjusting for the 1% foreign transaction fee):

Visa Interbank Rates

And it's possible your issuing bank has some fees also hidden in this forex "spread." They often don't talk about it, and usually won't admit to it when asked -- although this is mostly a problem of talking to low level employees, in my experience.

You sure? When I do an ATM withdrawal, if I go online within an hour, I can see the withdrawal transaction posted.

That's usually a 'placeholder.' When you go back a day or two later, you'll find the amount has changed somewhat to reflect a later-day exchange rate, which is the rate for the day the transaction is actually processed.

[Chaimai]

You sure? When I do an ATM withdrawal, if I go online within an hour, I can see the withdrawal transaction posted.

That's usually a 'placeholder.' When you go back a day or two later, you'll find the amount has changed somewhat to reflect a later-day exchange rate, which is the rate for the day the transaction is actually processed.

Are you REALLY sure - my Nationwide ATM withdrawals appear to real-time and I have never noticed the balance subsequently change because of rate adjustment. I can understand that principle for credit card transactions where the transactions are no doubt pooled, and a daily rate applied, but not for ATM cash withdrawals.

[jfchandler]

Most of my U.S. Bank/ATM withdrawals here have posted to my online accounts by the time I finish walking home from the ATM... I have one bank that's an exception, where everything done here seems to show up 3 days later... But for all others, it's virtually instantaneous....

Re exchange rates, I recently did some different withdrawals on the same day with very different results... not sure why... PS - Every time I do a sizeable withdrawal, I do the exchange rate calculation when I get back home, so I'm frequently checking just what rate I ultimately receive for my withdrawals.

On Aug. 5, I used an ATM/VISA debit card from a smaller U.S. bank at a BKK Bank ATM in BKK (no fee surcharge) that netted an exchange rate of 33.49.

On the same day, I used a non-VISA HSBC ATM card at a BKK Bank ATM in BKK (again, no Thai surcharge) that netted a 32.33 rate...

I've always had the feeling somehow the U.S. version of HSBC has pretty bad exchange rates, or are taking out a fee somewhere for ATM withdrawals here... But in my online banking, it only showed a single withdrawal amount... no fees shown there or on my paper ATM receipt.

[vagabond48]

Most of my U.S. Bank/ATM withdrawals here have posted to my online accounts by the time I finish walking home from the ATM... I have one bank that's an exception, where everything done here seems to show up 3 days later... But for all others, it's virtually instantaneous....

Re exchange rates, I recently did some different withdrawals on the same day with very different results... not sure why... PS - Every time I do a sizeable withdrawal, I do the exchange rate calculation when I get back home, so I'm frequently checking just what rate I ultimately receive for my withdrawals.

I've always had the feeling somehow the U.S. version of HSBC has pretty bad exchange rates, or are taking out a fee somewhere for ATM withdrawals here... But in my online banking, it only showed a single withdrawal amount... no fees shown there or on my paper ATM receipt.

My balance as well, has never changed.

When I have used my fee free Visa ATM cards from Bank of Internet and Fidelity back in minutes at SCB, I got the same exchange rate.

I use USA HSBC for easy transfer of my domestic money but did not get their ATM card because they were not fee free. I thought they even charged $1 or $1.50 for using their ATM machine internationally so I don't know why it wouldn't show up. They only have one location in Thailand, so for me, it wouldn't be very usefully in an emergency, here in CM.

When I need some more cash I will go to 2 or 3 different banks and test drive my 2 cards.

[Lancelot]

I called Bangkok once and asked how they determined the exchane rates ofr ATM withdrawls. The rep told me that they use the rate set by Visa.

Since then I've compared the rate I got with the Visa rate and I get the "gross" rate less 20 to 25 basis points.

Below is the link to the Visa Currency Exchange site

http://www.corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_...er_ex_rates.jsp

Happy ATM ing

[JimGant]

Are you REALLY sure - my Nationwide ATM withdrawals appear to real-time and I have never noticed the balance subsequently change because of rate adjustment.

Sounds like things happen differently for different banks and/or different networks. My ATM uses the Cirrus network. Now, whether the placeholder is a product of Cirrus, or of my bank, I don't know. Maybe someone else whose ATM rides Cirrus could do a look-see.

On the same day, I used a non-VISA HSBC ATM card at a BKK Bank

Wow, quite a difference in exchange rates. What network does this non -VISA ATM card ride? If it's Cirrus, I've got some serius decisions to make.

It's interesting that the Oanda Interbank Exchange rates (See: OANDA FX) differ considerably from the Visa Wholesale rates (see:VISA $ Forex Rates) For example, today, Aug 10, Visa posts a 33.70 dollar/baht rate while Oanda posts an Interbank Exchange rate of 33.93. Quite a difference, particularly when many reports say Visa and MasterCard exchange rates "approximate/same" as the Interbank Exchange Rate. Who knows. And I can't find anywhere the MasterCard (thus Cirrus network) wholesale rate..

Maybe that's because their rates suck. It's either that -- or my bank is taking me to the cleaners, as I'm paying nearly a 2.5% discount off the published Visa foreign exchange rate -- and my bank says they only take out the 1% foreign transaction fee, but nothing else......

And I know it's not Bangkok Bank over feeding, based on jfc's post about the 33.49 he got on Aug 5. In fact, based on Oanda's rate for that day, jfc paid only a 1% fee, which leaves no room for Bangkok Bank to have collected anything -- assuming jfc's bank collects for reimbursement of the Visa foreign transaction fee.........?

[jfchandler]

I checked, and the HSBC Bank (U.S. version) ATM card of theirs that I referenced above in using a BKK Bank ATM (and received quite a low exchange rate for) carries the Cirrus and Maestro logos only on the back side...

I'm a bit perplexed though, because I've also used the same HSBC ATM card at HSBC's BKK branch ATMs in the past, and seemed at the time their rate was competitive... But I don't have any current withdrawals from their HSBC ATMs there to use for comparison.

[jfchandler]

So...is this the correct understanding...

The VISA site for Aug. 10 shows their U.S. $/Thai baht exchange rate as 33.70 baht to $1.

If VISA is typically taking a 1% fee....that would equate to a cut of about .34 basis points.

Thus the net cash received for ATM withdrawals (assuming no other bank fees are being added in) would be about 33.36.

And that's just what my various ATM withdrawals lately from BKK Bank have been netting, using any variety of VISA network ATM and debit cards....

HSBC, on the other hand, is a different story. I recall someone posting an e-mail message they had received from HSBC here lately... As best as I recall, the HSBC rep was saying they were charging a 3% rate.... 1% going to the network and 2% for HSBC...

If you figure a 3% commission rate would equal about a 1 baht per $ rate cut at the current exchange rate, that about makes sense for the 32.33 rate I received from HSBC -- just about 1 full baht below the corresponding VISA 1% rate.

[vagabond48]

I called Bangkok once and asked how they determined the exchane rates ofr ATM withdrawls. The rep told me that they use the rate set by Visa.

Since then I've compared the rate I got with the Visa rate and I get the "gross" rate less 20 to 25 basis points.

Below is the link to the Visa Currency Exchange site

http://www.corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_...er_ex_rates.jsp

Happy ATM ing

I have been using the Visa site for about 8 months thinking it was accurate but recently I discovered that they don't update the site regularly and keep the same rate for several days so I went back to using Thaivisa's baht conversion site.

[JimGant]

Thus the net cash received for ATM withdrawals (assuming no other bank fees are being added in) would be about 33.36.

And that's just what my various ATM withdrawals lately from BKK Bank have been netting, using any variety of VISA network ATM and debit cards....

Interesting. This says all the banks issuing your Visa ATM/Debit cards *appear* to only charge you the 1% Visa/PLUS foreign transaction fee (which says you're with the right financial outfits). But, it also says you're probably getting a better rate than the daily one posted by Visa. And you do say you are getting a real-time exchange rate (i.e., no placeholder like I'm getting), so that the Visa one-day aggregate rate wouldn't apply (and this aggregate rate does consistently come in below those published by Thaivisa, Oanda, and B of Thailand).

And another indication you're getting a better rate is that you have to be paying something higher, albeit slightly, than just the 1% foreign transaction fee. Why? Because Bangkok Bank didn't install all those machines as goodwill. And since they don't charge a fee, they're getting something from the foreign transaction game (as may too the issuing banks.......). So, what appears to be only a 1% pass on fee would be somewhat more with a higher exchange rate.

I checked, and the HSBC Bank (U.S. version) ATM card of theirs that I referenced above in using a BKK Bank ATM (and received quite a low exchange rate for) carries the Cirrus and Maestro logos only on the back side...

Maybe Cirrus sucks. Again, they don't publish their exchange rates (at least that I can find). I guess it's time I talk to my bank to see who's stickin' it to me (they swore last time, when it seemed a little high, that they only pass on the 1%).

I wonder if there's still some element of the offshore/onshore rate dilemna (?). That could explain why Oanda's Interbank rate is so much higher than BofT's -- and maybe indicate something similar going on with the MasterCard/Cirrus and Visa/Plus networks.....

The only rate I know that is consistently right-on is the Bangkok Bank telex rate. And, with large sums wired, the fixed fees are sufficiently absorbed to beat any rate I can get with my USA ATM, debit, and credit cards. However, with a sinking baht, the advantage is quickly wiped out (but it was nice when it went the other way )

[jfchandler]

Jim...this is giving me a headache...

I have an SCB exchange booth near where I live...so I'm always passing their display board...which shows their exchange rate for traveler's cheques.... It's been bouncing around 33.3-4-5-6-7 lately....

I haven't actually sat down and compared the rate I'm getting from BKK Bank ATMs with the exchange rate BKK Bank lists daily on their web site. But the net rates I've been getting in real cash from their ATMs have been a bit below the rate shown for travelers checks at the SCB booth.

Maybe the next thing to do...is see how the BKK Bank cash ATM withdrawal rates compared to BKK Bank's posted web site exchange rate...

[Daffy D]

Survey result!

On Saturday 9th I withdrew cash from my UK account at ATM of two different banks within moments of each other in order to find out about possible differences in exchange rates.

My bank HSBC takes a couple of days for the transaction to appear on my statement so I only got the results today Monday 11th.

I did not use a credit card just the plain bank card that debits my account directly.

The first ATM was with Siam Commercial where the exchange rate was 62.05 to the UKP

The second bank was Siam City where the exchange rate was 62.18.

So the difference between the two banks is negligible for ATM amounts.

The Siam Commercial bank of course now has a 20bt surcharge on these transactions so the winner for ATM withdrawals of foreign currency is:-

Siam City Bank.

[aurelius]

The bank of the cardholder pays a 1USD fee to the bank that owns the ATM in the case of an international transaction - these fees are determined and settled by VISA. All cardholder transaction fees are deducted by the carholder's bank and none are supposed to be deducted by the ATM owning bank. This is intended to prevent local rip-offs and ensure full disclosure to card holders.

So why is SCB charging 20 bt on top? MasterCard has recently changed their rules and has started charging the bank with the ATM (duh!). As a consequence, SCB is trying recover this cost, even though its technically not allowed by the card company rules. Other banks are eating the same cost and petitioning MC to revise their policy. The final outcome is yet to be seen.

In NZ some years ago, the banks were bundling the ViSA charges with their own mark-ups so customers could not determine how much each was - this was successfully prosecuted and the banks had to pay back to customers millions in non-disclosed fees that had been charged.

[NowImEasy]

Would someone be so kind as to tell me the maximum daily limit that can be withdrawn in baht in LOS from a US bank?

[Lancelot]

On Aug 10 I with drew B16,500 from a Bangkok Bank ATM using my US issued Master Card credit union (non-profit member bank.)

My checking account was debited $498.61 USD.

On Aug 10 the www.xe.com site listed B33.69 / $1 as the "mid-market" rate.

B16,500/33.69 = $489.76

I think I was ripped for about $8.85. I'm not sure if it is Mastercard, my credit union or both of them.

Bank to using my vanguard Visa card

PS-No 20 baht fee at Bangkok bank ATM

Edited August 12, 2008 by Lancelot

[jfchandler]

Would someone be so kind as to tell me the maximum daily limit that can be withdrawn in baht in LOS from a US bank?

The answer really depends mostly on your U.S. Bank and what limit they have, or you have set with them, for that particular card/account.... Standard limits of $250 or $300 per day are common for U.S. banks, but each sets their own limits, or allows customers to request changes.

As best as I recall, the Thai ATMs do have some limit on the number of bills you can withdraw in one transaction... so many 1000 baht notes max... But if the account you're taking from is a U.S. account, that's where the daily limit would come into play.

[JimGant]

The bank of the cardholder pays a 1USD fee to the bank that owns the ATM in the case of an international transaction..........MasterCard has recently changed their rules and has started charging the bank with the ATM (duh!).

So, the bank with the ATM is still getting the 1USD -- but MasterCard is saying 'hand it (or part of it) over to us?'

Couldn't squeeze any other part of the sytem but the ATM owner? Or, maybe ATM owners deserved to get squeezed.....

[JimGant]

The first ATM was with Siam Commercial where the exchange rate was 62.05 to the UKP

The second bank was Siam City where the exchange rate was 62.18.

Either way, you're getting screwed by HSBC -- big time!

Whether or not your transaction was effective on 9 Aug -- or 11 Aug, when it was first reported -- makes no difference for the following observation, as I use 65 GBP, the lowest exchange rate found amongst these dates and forex reporters.

So, using your winner -- Siam City at 62.18........

divided by 65....

you get.....the fact that you're paying a 4.34% fee!!!...of which only the 1% foreign transaction fee is explainable. HSBC -- as JFC also reports -- ain't doing you any favors.

The SCB 20 baht caper pales next to these crooks....

Time to move on.

[JimGant]

As best as I recall, the Thai ATMs do have some limit on the number of bills you can withdraw in one transaction... so many 1000 baht notes max...

Bangkok Bank maxes out at 25 bills. They're usually 1000 baht variety, but a couple of times I had to get 12,500 when they only had 500 notes to load (this fact was well indicated in English).

Some other banks, I understand, only have 20 bill slots. Not sure which ones, or whether or not this is old data.

[gk10002000]

Been to LOS 8 times. Each time used my Check debit card, visa logo, my bank is Etrade. The exchange rates for the ATM were always as good as anything I could see on the street that took paper money. I would naturally have expected that since no people were involved. I never used my credit card and wouldn't consider it. Too much slop in how I heard they do exchange rates.

Etrade used to charge just the normal ATM fee then they recently added a 1 % foreign ATM fee. On a $500 USD withdrawal that would be $5. However, Etrade immediately refunds all of my ATM fees because I meet their "ATM refund criteria".

Etrade has several ways where they won't charge you any ATM fees and will reimburse any ATM fees charged by anybody. Total of $50,000 across your accounts, etc.

I brink a combination of Cash and my ATM when I visit the LOS. I just try to minimize overseas transactions and for various reasons try to avoid any and all. But, sometimes I am there long enough where I have to make a withdrawal. Not that I am hiding anything, I just don't see the need for Uncle Sam and big brother to know where I am at any given time. I stopped telling my Mom where I was going to play about 40 years ago!

[hyperdimension]

You sure? When I do an ATM withdrawal, if I go online within an hour, I can see the withdrawal transaction posted.

That's usually a 'placeholder.' When you go back a day or two later, you'll find the amount has changed somewhat to reflect a later-day exchange rate, which is the rate for the day the transaction is actually processed.

Are you REALLY sure - my Nationwide ATM withdrawals appear to real-time and I have never noticed the balance subsequently change because of rate adjustment. I can understand that principle for credit card transactions where the transactions are no doubt pooled, and a daily rate applied, but not for ATM cash withdrawals.

It is correct that the entry is a "placeholder", though it depends on the account with the bank. From my experience with withdrawing from various accounts, if the ATM transactions will incur fees then yes, it is a placeholder and you'll have to wait a day (or more?) for the actual amount to appear. If there are no fees, then the amount will stay the same. Is this in line with the experiences of you guys?

Edited September 11, 2008 by hyperdimension

[hyperdimension]

Like you guys, I've been doing research on the Thai Baht exchange rates across different banks and ATMs.

I've been using this particular web site lately to compare the exchange rates of Thai banks: http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net

I think the bank with the best exchange rate at any moment varies throughout the day, so this web site helps to determine which one to use when actually doing the transaction.

Edited September 11, 2008 by hyperdimension

[brianb1944]

I called Bangkok once and asked how they determined the exchane rates ofr ATM withdrawls. The rep told me that they use the rate set by Visa.

Since then I've compared the rate I got with the Visa rate and I get the "gross" rate less 20 to 25 basis points.

Below is the link to the Visa Currency Exchange site

http://www.corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_...er_ex_rates.jsp

Happy ATM ing

I have been using the Visa site for about 8 months thinking it was accurate but recently I discovered that they don't update the site regularly and keep the same rate for several days so I went back to using Thaivisa's baht conversion site.

[brianb1944]

You guys in USA are in Hog Heaven with ATM charges, Bankwest in Oz charges me 3% Foreign Exchange fee and $5 per overseas atm transaction

[jfchandler]

There are U.S. banks that charge similar fees like that, including the huge Bank of America outfit... And they are not the only one. Quite a few of the MAJOR U.S. banks are now at 3%... Fortunately, there are still alternate choices available where the fee is 0% or even 1%..... Nothing special about the U.S. in that regard.