The Wife May Lose Her Green Card

[Martian]

DrDave,

I sincerely sympathize with you and your wife's situation and respect the complexity of the situation you two are trying to manage. I took some time to read the following page and you are correct about giving the impression about being out of the country up to a year.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/men...00045f3d6a1RCRD

I think I recall the 6 month time frame being talked about in context with qualifying for naturalization as well, but I do know that I read it somewhere with regard to green cards too and it made such an impression on my wife and I that we both agreed that it was an important benchmark not to break to achieve our ultimate goal. I've been sure to cross our T's and dot our I's and that goal may be achieved this next Friday if things go as expected.

Good luck to you and hope things work out. If there's ever any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Regards,

Martian

[jayceenik]

How about a naturalized citizen losing his US citizenship because of not maintaining permanent abode in the US! Days before being shipped over to the Vietnam War in 1970 (I had enlisted in the US Army in 1969) I was naturalized (what an expression!). Came back and was honorably discharged after an extended tour of combat duty (18 months). Couldn't find a good job stateside, went to Canada and from there to Indonesia. Renewed US passport five years later at the US consulate in Jakarta and in short order received a letter from INS telling me that since I had left immediately after being sworn in as a new citizen (I was sent to the Nam by the US Army!) and not having permanent abode in the US they were considering cancelling my citizenship. Through a friend's connections Senator Barry Goldwater (God bless his soul) intervened in my behalf and the matter was dropped but I was so flustered with this affair (having come close to being stateless as I had automatically lost my former citizenship upon acquiring the US one) that I immediately took the legal steps to regain my former European citizenship and then formally renounced my US citizenship at a US consulate.

[Pseacraft]

Wow that/this sucks. I guess my wife is screwed then because she has been living in LOS since December 06 with our two boys (natural born US citizens) while I am over in the desert on a long term contract for the DOD. I guess we will have to make a trek down to BKK and surrender her card and the apply for the 10 year. We really do not have the intention to return to the US, the only thing we have there is our bank accounts and investments, we sold our house in FL when I retired from the military and got a civilian job elsewhere. And we file joint returns annually. Humm...wonder how this will go on my security clearance when it's time to re-vet.

INS, or what ever they are called these days, are a typical bureaucracy; Red tape and multiple interpretations to everything. But as mentioned previously the system is much better than other countries!

OP - Thanks for posting this question. I didn't realize this myself.

Eric

[grandpa-m]

we just went to america , my wife lived in america 3 years and had green card, but we were told by usa consulate that if she was out of country for 6mths or more she was required to turn in her green card at home land security right across the street from us embassy . which we did and we filled out form I-407 called abandonment of lawful permanent resident satus, then back to us embassy and had interview and was given a 10 year vistors visa stamp so we would'nt have to go through all this again , and when we went through home land security everywhere they ask for pass port we hand to show copy of this form hope this helps answer you questions if not and need more help e-mail me at [email protected] grandpa -m

[tuffy]

It seems there are never any easy answers!

So basically to sum up what the options are:

1) Do nothing and let immigration take here green card at arrival back in the States (worst option)

2) Surrender the green card and try to get a visa ASSUMING a green card can be applied for later on

3) Apply for the I-131 travel permit which gives us 2 years before we have to move back to the States and take the time to get naturalized. This would involve being physically in the US 18 months out of 3 years (3 years in which she returns to the US every 5 or 6 months.

In this case (#3) i wonder if the 3 years of continuous residency can be started while still over here with the I-131 and returning every 5 months or so, then returning for the last 18 months to live in the US?

What a pain in the A#$

[tuffy]

we just went to america , my wife lived in america 3 years and had green card, but we were told by usa consulate that if she was out of country for 6mths or more she was required to turn in her green card at home land security right across the street from us embassy . which we did and we filled out form I-407 called abandonment of lawful permanent resident satus, then back to us embassy and had interview and was given a 10 year vistors visa stamp so we would'nt have to go through all this again , and when we went through home land security everywhere they ask for pass port we hand to show copy of this form hope this helps answer you questions if not and need more help e-mail me at [email protected] grandpa -m

grandpa-m,

Where did you do this and when? That sounds like it may be the most user friendly option. Did they mention to you whether she would be eligible to reapply for a green card in the furture?

My biggest concern is in the future things may change for the worse and she won't beable to move back (if we ever decided to)

[dingdongrb]

The Green Card is for aliens resident in the USA. A certain amount of time is allowed for trips outside the USA, for trips to return to the country of origin. But it is expected that the main place of residense wil be in the US.

A friend of mine had a similar problem when he worked in Saudi Arabia. He was on a two year contract, with housing provided. He had a Thai wife, who had a Green Card and was living with him in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He filed his US income tax jointly with his wife (for a tax break filing jointly versus filing two individual returns). He claimed that he was living in Saudi. When he did he recieved a letter form the Immigration people claiming that his wife could not be listed on his tax return, since she had a green Card as a US resident. The choices were to:

1. File two individual returns = higher tax bill

2. She could give up her Green Card...then they could file a joint tax return as living in Saudi

Because it was financially better to file a joint tax return, she gave up her Green Card.

That is an amazingly inaccurate storey.

1. Why would immigration have anything to do with her income tax filing status?

2. All the Form 1040 ask is for a SSN, which as a green cared holder she should have. Does not ask if citizen or permanent resident.

3. The Form 2555 for the Foreign Income Exclusion does not ask for any information on the spouse so her being in Saudi instead of the US would have no affect on eligibility of the husband to file it.

I just wonder where such stories come from.

TH

I totally agree with thaihome, my Thai wife currently has a permanent residence card but it is with the two year conditional status. We have been living in LOS for almost 2 years now and I have filed the I-795 form to remove the conditions. For the past two years we have filed a USA joint tax return using my wife’s SSN. And we will continue doing this.

Now just this last Friday (8/15/08) I was on the phone with a USCIS officer discussing the process of getting the conditions removed living abroad. I was told this could not happen outside of Thailand unless I went to the US Embassy directly in BKK and spoke with an officer there. She said it is purely their decision there whether this could be done or not. It is also their decision at the US Embassy in BKK whether or not we could have the biometrics performed there.

I told the officer on the phone that I would speak with the US Embassy in BKK to pursue this route instead of going all the way back to the states just for a quick interview and fingerprinting. The officer on the phone was much more than helpful. She had even gone into the system while I was on the phone with her and pushed the expiration date for my wife’s I-795 application out until June of 2009.

[Martian]

How about a naturalized citizen losing his US citizenship because of not maintaining permanent abode in the US! Days before being shipped over to the Vietnam War in 1970 (I had enlisted in the US Army in 1969) I was naturalized (what an expression!). Came back and was honorably discharged after an extended tour of combat duty (18 months). Couldn't find a good job stateside, went to Canada and from there to Indonesia. Renewed US passport five years later at the US consulate in Jakarta and in short order received a letter from INS telling me that since I had left immediately after being sworn in as a new citizen (I was sent to the Nam by the US Army!) and not having permanent abode in the US they were considering cancelling my citizenship. Through a friend's connections Senator Barry Goldwater (God bless his soul) intervened in my behalf and the matter was dropped but I was so flustered with this affair (having come close to being stateless as I had automatically lost my former citizenship upon acquiring the US one) that I immediately took the legal steps to regain my former European citizenship and then formally renounced my US citizenship at a US consulate.

I've never come across this requirement to maintaining citizenship. It was my understanding that one can only lose their citizenship if found to have obtained citizenship illegally, been a part of a "subversive" organization, such as the NAZI party or concealing or misrepresenting a material fact in obtaining citizenship. I wouldn't call "where" you intend to live as a material fact because that can change quickly.Here's a excerpt from the USCIS site explaining that:

for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate, respectively:

I think the USCIS has much more important priorities than to go after a naturalized citizen who chooses to live abroad with their citizen spouse, unless of course that place abroad is Cuba....lol.

Martian

[Martian]

I haven't seen this problem pop up yet here on TV, maybe it has and I missed it.

Here is the deal, the wife lived with me in the USA long enough to get her Green Card, then we decided to move back to LOS.

Now when she goes back if it's not more than every 5 months or so she is going to lose it.

Are there any American's out there that have had to deal with this.

Is it possible to get her citizenship while still living here most of the time . I don't want to move back to be honest, But I don't want her to lose he right to go back either.

Any insights?

I hope this helps, but I am afraid you have already fell behind..

Suggest you go into your computer and read "Welcome to the United States, A guide for new Immigrants" published by the U.S.Citizenship and Immigration Services.. pgs 10,93(very important), 94 and 99. You will find that your wife, to become "Naturalized" must live in the U.S. for a "continuous" amount of time.. to be considered a "continuous resident".. Three years if married to a U.S. citizen.. Every time you leave the States, your time is broken and must be started again when you return to the U.S. before you can even apply for naturalization. (See pg 94) Further, pg 93 states the conditions very plainly.. Time in States requirement , out more than six months..possibly broken.. Out more than one year...broken.. and you have to start counting all over again..

This information can be found on USCIS website at "http://www.uscis.gov".

Oh, I am married to a Thai citizen, 41 years, with a green card (PRC). She goes back to our home in Thailand every two years and stays 11 months.. Never had a problem coming back..

Good luck... Bobbyphon... Florida

Bobbyphon,

First off, I am hoping for everyone in Florida that the possible storm coming will pass without much destruction or casualties! I just returned from two years in Venice, FL and not much more than a tropical storm came through while I was there...and that was when my wife and I were in LOS....lol!

Anyway, Unless I am not understanding the context of your following statement, I have to respectfully disagree with it:

"Every time you leave the States, your time is broken and must be started again when you return to the U.S. before you can even apply for naturalization".

I believe there are "stipulations" about how much time you can be out of the USA during the time you are trying to satisfy the "continuous residency" requirement. My wife (and I) took an annual holiday back to Thailand during each of the 3 years of "continuous residency" and there is even a place on the citizenship application to list those trips....and her application was accepted and an interview has been arranged. Her trips were once a year for anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks and were duly noted on the application.

Page 18 (2nd row down) of manual M-476 (guide to naturalization) , in accordance with the 3 years of marriage requirement on the left side, makes the following statement on the right side in the column titled "continuous residence":

"3 years as a Permanent Resident without leaving the United States for trips of 6 months or longer".

So, my interpretation is that while trying to establish the 3-year continuous residency requirement, one can leave the States as long as any one trip does not exceed 6 months.

As I said, if I am misunderstanding the context of your post...excuse me, but I didn't want people to get the idea that you are "trapped" here for 3 straight years in order to meet the continuous residency requirements.

Technically, it sounds as if one can leave for almost 6 months, re-enter the USA for a day then leave for another trip not exceeding 6 months and still qualify....I say technically. I wouldn't recommend it!

Guide to naturalization: http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf

Regards,

Martian

Edited August 17, 2008 by Martian

[Martian]

It seems there are never any easy answers!

So basically to sum up what the options are:

1) Do nothing and let immigration take here green card at arrival back in the States (worst option)

2) Surrender the green card and try to get a visa ASSUMING a green card can be applied for later on

3) Apply for the I-131 travel permit which gives us 2 years before we have to move back to the States and take the time to get naturalized. This would involve being physically in the US 18 months out of 3 years (3 years in which she returns to the US every 5 or 6 months.

In this case (#3) i wonder if the 3 years of continuous residency can be started while still over here with the I-131 and returning every 5 months or so, then returning for the last 18 months to live in the US?

What a pain in the A#$

Tuffy,

With regard to the last part of your option #3, I don't think that is "technically" required. Please read the second row on page 18 of manual M-476:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf

You could interpret the statement in the far right column titled "continuous residence" as meaning any one trip can't be more than 6 months so...............as I said in a previous post, if this is a sound "legal" interpretation, your wife could enter the USA and use that basis as starting her continuous residency and then leave a few days later and then return not more than 6 months later for a few days...repeat the process for 3 years and then apply for citizenship. A return flight to Los Angeles and a couple nights in an airport hotel or with some friend might be worth the investment to gain naturalization IF USCIS accepts that interpretation of their own rules. Your first hurdle would be to get the green card accepted if she's been out since 2006....might not be possible but if it is, maybe this idea can work for you. Did I make any sense there?

As they say in LOS: up to you! lol

Regards,

Martian

Edited August 17, 2008 by Martian

[TypicalAnonym]

Every time you leave the States, your time is broken and must be started again when you return to the U.S. before you can even apply for naturalization.

Nonsense.

My wife received US citizenship 10 months ago after 3 years of being a green card holder. We went on plenty of international vacations during that 3 year period. The naturalization application even has a section where you must specifically document periods spent abroad.

[thaihome]

A close friend of mine surrendered her green card, and got some kind of special US visa. She is free to visit the US for up to 3 months at a time, good for 10 years, with renewal available after the 10 years are done. Oh, and if she ever decided to move back to the US she would be eligible for the green card again, no hassle. So I have heard. I didn't pay much attention to the details, sorry.

She got a 10 year multi entry B2 tourist visa.

TH

[flying]

Nonsense.

My wife received US citizenship 10 months ago after 3 years of being a green card holder. We went on plenty of international vacations during that 3 year period. The naturalization application even has a section where you must specifically document periods spent abroad.

Were any of your international trips longer than 6 months?

Thanks

[tuffy]

It seems there are never any easy answers!

So basically to sum up what the options are:

1) Do nothing and let immigration take here green card at arrival back in the States (worst option)

2) Surrender the green card and try to get a visa ASSUMING a green card can be applied for later on

3) Apply for the I-131 travel permit which gives us 2 years before we have to move back to the States and take the time to get naturalized. This would involve being physically in the US 18 months out of 3 years (3 years in which she returns to the US every 5 or 6 months.

In this case (#3) i wonder if the 3 years of continuous residency can be started while still over here with the I-131 and returning every 5 months or so, then returning for the last 18 months to live in the US?

What a pain in the A#$

Tuffy,

With regard to the last part of your option #3, I don't think that is "technically" required. Please read the second row on page 18 of manual M-476:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf

You could interpret the statement in the far right column titled "continuous residence" as meaning any one trip can't be more than 6 months so...............as I said in a previous post, if this is a sound "legal" interpretation, your wife could enter the USA and use that basis as starting her continuous residency and then leave a few days later and then return not more than 6 months later for a few days...repeat the process for 3 years and then apply for citizenship. A return flight to Los Angeles and a couple nights in an airport hotel or with some friend might be worth the investment to gain naturalization IF USCIS accepts that interpretation of their own rules. Your first hurdle would be to get the green card accepted if she's been out since 2006....might not be possible but if it is, maybe this idea can work for you. Did I make any sense there?

As they say in LOS: up to you! lol

Regards,

Martian

Martin,

In the same referenced document above...M-476.pdf there is a Naturalization Eligibility Worksheet, under Attachment A, one of the questions states "During the past three years, I have not been out of the country for 18 months or more".

If false then not eligible for naturalization (page 54 of 65).

This is where the grey area or "interpretation" whether it is less than 6 month absences or 18 months in the US over 3 year period. I am sure it is up to the immigration agent reviewing the case as to which side of the fence she falls.

Does anyone know for sure if she surrenders her Green Card, what is the eligibility of getting a new one later on and also what are the chances of not being given a 10 year visa after suirrenderign the GC?

Without a green card can we still file a joint tax return assuming she has a social security # already? I would think that isn't a problem, there has never been any question about her Green card before on tax documents.

[jayceenik]

How about a naturalized citizen losing his US citizenship because of not maintaining permanent abode in the US! Days before being shipped over to the Vietnam War in 1970 (I had enlisted in the US Army in 1969) I was naturalized (what an expression!). Came back and was honorably discharged after an extended tour of combat duty (18 months). Couldn't find a good job stateside, went to Canada and from there to Indonesia. Renewed US passport five years later at the US consulate in Jakarta and in short order received a letter from INS telling me that since I had left immediately after being sworn in as a new citizen (I was sent to the Nam by the US Army!) and not having permanent abode in the US they were considering cancelling my citizenship. Through a friend's connections Senator Barry Goldwater (God bless his soul) intervened in my behalf and the matter was dropped but I was so flustered with this affair (having come close to being stateless as I had automatically lost my former citizenship upon acquiring the US one) that I immediately took the legal steps to regain my former European citizenship and then formally renounced my US citizenship at a US consulate.

I've never come across this requirement to maintaining citizenship. It was my understanding that one can only lose their citizenship if found to have obtained citizenship illegally, been a part of a "subversive" organization, such as the NAZI party or concealing or misrepresenting a material fact in obtaining citizenship. I wouldn't call "where" you intend to live as a material fact because that can change quickly.Here's a excerpt from the USCIS site explaining that:

for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate, respectively:

I think the USCIS has much more important priorities than to go after a naturalized citizen who chooses to live abroad with their citizen spouse, unless of course that place abroad is Cuba....lol.

Martian

At the time I applied for naturalization (1970), in the application form there was indeed the question "Do you intend to make the USA your permanent abode?" (or something to the effect). Learned about the importance of that question (to which I had obviously answered by "Yes") only when I got the INS letter which was, the INS Director (I went to DC to see him, so mad and concerned I was) told me, was initiated by the (overzealous?) US consul in Jakarta who must have taken a dislike at me (my Vietnam military service? my European origin?).

And, yes, I had to declare all my whereabouts since getting my very first passport five years earlier. In your quote there is the "willfull misrepresentation" clause which was indeed used against me by the INS claiming that I had demonstrated that I had no intention to permanently "abode" in the USA and so had lied on my application. Not true, really, I had tried hard to get a job stateside after my discharge. And it was ridiculous in the extreme to go after a straight guy just trying to make an honest living.

BTW I was filing IRS tax returns all the five years; while in the Army, working in Canada and then Indonesia and, being single, had no permanent abode anywhere; just company lodgings.

This abode requirement may have been dropped since then.