Just Immigration Questions

[vagabond48]

In about 4 months, I will be going for my 1st retirement extension.

I was going to drop in at the immigration office but perhaps the question below can be asked at this meeting.

I plan to bring a notarized letter from the consulate stating that I have over 65kbaht per month income (non pension) from various USA financial sources. I know I may be asked by immigration, to show proof. I want to avoid having to bring a lot of unnecessary paper work such as 12 months of income statements from a number of financial sources.

My questions are,

(1) Will they accept the USA IRS 1099 form that would show the total yearly interest income earned from a specific financial institutions?

(2) If YES, would they accept 1099s from 2007 tax year since I would be applying for the extension before the 1099 for tax year 2008 become available at the end of January 2009.

Thanks

[moneyshot]

In about 4 months, I will be going for my 1st retirement extension.

I was going to drop in at the immigration office but perhaps the question below can be asked at this meeting.

I plan to bring a notarized letter from the consulate stating that I have over 65kbaht per month income (non pension) from various USA financial sources. I know I may be asked by immigration, to show proof. I want to avoid having to bring a lot of unnecessary paper work such as 12 months of income statements from a number of financial sources.

My questions are,

(1) Will they accept the USA IRS 1099 form that would show the total yearly interest income earned from a specific financial institutions?

(2) If YES, would they accept 1099s from 2007 tax year since I would be applying for the extension before the 1099 for tax year 2008 become available at the end of January 2009.

Thanks

I had to get a 'proof of income letter' for Chiang Mai immigration and was told the letter needs to be no more than one month old before your visa application. A new letter from the embassy will be needed every year for a new extension.

[vagabond48]

I had to get a 'proof of income letter' for Chiang Mai immigration and was told the letter needs to be no more than one month old before your visa application. A new letter from the embassy will be needed every year for a new extension.

I am aware of the timeliness of the notarized letter but I wasn't asking about this letter but about the acceptance of USA IRS 1099 end of year tax form as proof.

[Greenside]

I had to get a 'proof of income letter' for Chiang Mai immigration and was told the letter needs to be no more than one month old before your visa application. A new letter from the embassy will be needed every year for a new extension.

I am aware of the timeliness of the notarized letter but I wasn't asking about this letter but about the acceptance of USA IRS 1099 end of year tax form as proof.

I think the point is that the letter from your consulate/embassy is the proof that CM Immigration requires not the tax papers or pension info from your home country. I took along the supporting documents I used to get my letter from the UK consulate just in case but they never asked for them. I believe your question should be asked of the US Consulate.

PS. They seemed to enjoy skimming through copies of my bank book but quite what they learned from it I don't know, except perhaps that regular withdrawals and almost no deposits probably reinforce the fact that one isn't working. I find that pattern somewhat depressing, personally .

[Ajarn]

It was announced at the Expats Club's last meeting that the Immigration Office has resumed issuing these certificates. I cannot personally confirm but that is what was announced.

Could anybody confirm ? Because my embassy charges THB 1'800,00 for this f..... certificate ( a rip off when you think it's just 3 lines on a piece of paper) . So it would be nice if the IO would issue it again.

I suggest you go there and ask, if pressed, or call them up. They do have a telephone number and do speak English. Or wait until the next meeting of Chiang Mai Friends and ask the colonel himself. People have been asked to submit questions in advance.

Now, one of the questions I am interested in has to do with those who are unable to physically travel to the office or who can not, because of stroke, perhaps, not even complete and sign a 90-day residence application. Given the average age of the expat community and the the high level of alcohol lovers, "fry up" freaks and cinamon roll fanatics, I think that is a reasonable question.

For now, a simple question. Anyone actually thought of this, or are people in denial --- except for the next "fry up?!"

Mapguy, I send my housekeeper each time to take care of my ninety day thing, and once a year, for my visa. For the last three years, there has been no problem from immigration. This is one of the reasons I love living in Thailand, not all the 'rules' are enforced unless needed.

[vagabond48]

I think the point is that the letter from your consulate/embassy is the proof that CM Immigration requires not the tax papers or pension info from your home country. I took along the supporting documents I used to get my letter from the UK consulate just in case but they never asked for them. I believe your question should be asked of the US Consulate.

Unlike other embassy/consulates, the US consulate does not require or ask for any supporting documents, just your sworn statement. Since the immigration people know this, they may ask for supporting documents (or not), so I am back to the questions regarding 1099s, which I hope will be asked at the September meeting by a US citizen.

Thanks anyway for the suggestions.

[sylviex]

Now, one of the questions I am interested in has to do with those who are unable to physically travel to the office or who can not, because of stroke, perhaps, not even complete and sign a 90-day residence application.

You get a medical certificate to cover the relevant period. Best have someone else take it in and explain the situation rather than wait until you can.

As Ajarn indicates, this seems not to cause problems so long as you communicate with the dept.

[Bill97]

I think the point is that the letter from your consulate/embassy is the proof that CM Immigration requires not the tax papers or pension info from your home country. I took along the supporting documents I used to get my letter from the UK consulate just in case but they never asked for them. I believe your question should be asked of the US Consulate.

Unlike other embassy/consulates, the US consulate does not require or ask for any supporting documents, just your sworn statement. Since the immigration people know this, they may ask for supporting documents (or not), so I am back to the questions regarding 1099s, which I hope will be asked at the September meeting by a US citizen.

There are many good reasons not to ask about 1099's or other supporting information.

It is not an issue since people are generally not asked for any supporting information.

The questions should not be asked because they contain downside risks and no upside benefit since the answer today is not necessarily enforced tomorrow.

[Mapguy]

Now, one of the questions I am interested in has to do with those who are unable to physically travel to the office or who can not, because of stroke, perhaps, not even complete and sign a 90-day residence application.

You get a medical certificate to cover the relevant period. Best have someone else take it in and explain the situation rather than wait until you can.

As Ajarn indicates, this seems not to cause problems so long as you communicate with the dept.

Thank you, Sylviex and Ajarn, for helpful suggestions which are in agreement with anything I have heard elsewhere. When mobility alone is difficult, I think the "housekeeper approach" would make sense for a 90-day notice. After all, that can be done in any case by mail. If further disability is a problem, then I suggest a medical certificate is in order. If it appears that an investigation is merited, then an officer might travel to the person's abode. Those on other than retirement visas have come under more careful scutiny.

All this suggests something larger. If you don't play games with the Immigration authorities and have a genuine need in a situation beyond your control, they really are very helpful. Yes, I know about the mounds of paper, purported inefficiency, et cetera, but, as I have said before, it has taken me less than an hour the last two times I visited the Chiang Mai office to extend a visa. No one there has ever been anything less than helpful.

I further suggest that they not be told how to run their business, which is more complex than an expat might suppose --- often because of expats gaming the system. And that does not begin to consider the larger immigration issues facing Thailand involving surrounding countries. I often think we expats have our noses buried in our navels in considering our personal needs.

[Bill97]

I often think we expats have our noses buried in our navels in considering our personal needs.

If that is close to having their heads up their <deleted>, good point, quite often.

[vagabond48]

There are many good reasons not to ask about 1099's or other supporting information.

It is not an issue since people are generally not asked for any supporting information.

The questions should not be asked because they contain downside risks and no upside benefit since the answer today is not necessarily enforced tomorrow.

Would you mind sharing what the downside risks are, in asking?

Since the US consulate does not require supporting docs, what if immigration asks for supporting docs? What do you do then?

Kinda similar to not having 20k when crossing the border back to Thailand because they rarely ask for it. If they did, what would you do?

[Bill97]

There are many good reasons not to ask about 1099's or other supporting information.

It is not an issue since people are generally not asked for any supporting information.

The questions should not be asked because they contain downside risks and no upside benefit since the answer today is not necessarily enforced tomorrow.

Would you mind sharing what the downside risks are, in asking?

Since the US consulate does not require supporting docs, what if immigration asks for supporting docs? What do you do then?

Kinda similar to not having 20k when crossing the border back to Thailand because they rarely ask for it. If they did, what would you do?

Would you mind sharing what the downside risks are, in asking?

Yes but a hint is that most are related to making problems for other people .....

Since the US consulate does not require supporting docs, what if immigration asks for supporting docs? What do you do then?

As I stated, they do not ask, or very very rarely but in your case, they might because Type A people are their favorites, so what you do is duh go get the documents they ask for and return with them or tell them that the US Government has also certified your income and they are asking for a lot of trouble screwing with Uncle Sam or run like hel_l until you cross a border. The later is recommended as the safest.

Kinda similar to not having 20k when crossing the border back to Thailand because they rarely ask for it. If they did, what would you do?

I do not put myself in that situation which is not at all similar. But if I did and they did, I would run like hel_l until I crossed a border because that is almost always the safest choice.

Did you ever get your PO Box? This is kinda similar to that.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Bill97

[vagabond48]

Yes but a hint is that most are related to making problems for other people .....

Let sleeping dogs lie?

As I stated, they do not ask, or very very rarely but in your case, they might because Type A people are their favorites

You got me pegged. Perhaps I am a bit of an "A" type but I like to keep things as simple as possible and minimize problems. Remember, this is my 1st time so I'm an extension virgin. I probably was a lawyer in another life.

Did you ever get your PO Box?

Yep. Decided that "bird in hand was better than two in the bush" so I went for the available box at the smaller PO rather then wait for the larger PO.

[Bill97]

I like to keep things as simple as possible

Great idea but not what you are doing.

[vagabond48]

I like to keep things as simple as possible

Great idea but not what you are doing.

your opinion, of course.

[PeaceBlondie]

I am a retired IRS bureaucrat who thinks that Forms 1099 would not be understandable to a Thai police officer.

On my first retirement extension, I was a Nervous Nellie. I got my certified pension statement at the Chiang Mai US consulate, and photocopied my bank statements that showed the deposits of my pension. I think he kind of glanced at them the first year. I did not do that for the 2nd year, and he did not ask for them. I go back in four more weeks, and do not plan to copy those documents.

It does no good to remind the Thai authorities that the embassy requires no proof.

[Greenside]

It does no good to remind the Thai authorities that the embassy requires no proof.

A can of worms best left firmly closed or some bright spark will be demanding certification from Price Waterhouse or the like. I'll think I'll keep copies of my bank book handy but no more than that unless requested specifically.

By the way, the object of this thread was to come up with a list of questions to be put in advance of the meeting. I don't have time to review the posts now but my impression is that we haven't come up with many (that is quite a lot have been answered here). More simply put questions please because I'll have to get a summary done soon now.

[Mapguy]

It does no good to remind the Thai authorities that the embassy requires no proof.

A can of worms best left firmly closed or some bright spark will be demanding certification from Price Waterhouse or the like. I'll think I'll keep copies of my bank book handy but no more than that unless requested specifically.

By the way, the object of this thread was to come up with a list of questions to be put in advance of the meeting. I don't have time to review the posts now but my impression is that we haven't come up with many (that is quite a lot have been answered here). More simply put questions please because I'll have to get a summary done soon now.

Well, you've had a thoughtful idea, Greenside, but I don't see much of a list. It does seem that people must be well-versed in the law! I posted the complete police order in two places and, as of last night, there had been only nine downloads!

As to what particular piece of paper seems to be required as "proof" of the necessary financial wherewithall, there are many, many possibilities, I suppose. If I were the colonel, I'd feel put upon to be asked to come up with any particular list. The most obvious and, I believe, the most referred to documentation would be bank books and statements showing deposits and transfers. Simple enough.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Mapguy

[Bill97]

Greenside,

Along with what ever questions you submit should be a brief explanation that the questions come from individuals, not from any group, large or small. And of course a very hearty thank you for all the kind service, wonderful help and great patience dealing with ignorant farang that the immigration department has provided for many years. (or something to that effect which will give them a good laugh and express our sincere appreciation)

[vagabond48]

I thought I was fairly clear but apparently not.

I go back in four more weeks, and do not plan to copy those documents.

It does no good to remind the Thai authorities that the embassy requires no proof.

What ever supporting documents I would take, I certainly would not have presented the documents unless asked. I was only trying to determine what is the least amount of paperwork to bring.

I didn't plan to remind immigration that the US consulate didn't require proof, although perhaps, I give them too much credit thinking, they might know this already.

I am a retired IRS bureaucrat who thinks that Forms 1099 would not be understandable to a Thai police officer.

Why? If they can read English, I would think a short one page 1099 form might be easier to understand than 12 months of multiple statement pages from several banks but I have not had any experience with immigration other the border crossings.

Sorry, if it looks like I am complicating things.

[Bill97]

They do not want to look at your 1099 or bank statements or anything other than the consulate letter because they know that if you lied in your sworn statement to the US government official at the consul, you have seriously violated laws here and there which could easily land you in jail, and everybody knows that. So they expect you know that too and that you have enough brains not to risk jail over such a simple thing but clearly they are giving you and perhaps some others too much credit for knowledge and common sense because of their kind hearts.

[Mapguy]

I thought I was fairly clear but apparently not.

I go back in four more weeks, and do not plan to copy those documents.

It does no good to remind the Thai authorities that the embassy requires no proof.

What ever supporting documents I would take, I certainly would not have presented the documents unless asked. I was only trying to determine what is the least amount of paperwork to bring.

I didn't plan to remind immigration that the US consulate didn't require proof, although perhaps, I give them too much credit thinking, they might know this already.

I am a retired IRS bureaucrat who thinks that Forms 1099 would not be understandable to a Thai police officer.

Why? If they can read English, I would think a short one page 1099 form might be easier to understand than 12 months of multiple statement pages from several banks but I have not had any experience with immigration other the border crossings.

Sorry, if it looks like I am complicating things.

Yes, you are complicating things.

[bunta71]

A couple points the folks here are trying to point out here "quietly" are these, which don't seem to be getting through to you:

We have no way to ascertain who may be reading this forum at any given time. May happen that sometimes immigration employees read this and come up with new nightmares for us to deal with. Nightmares that they weren't aware of YET.I am referencing the whole IRS can of worms.

Another subtle point is that myself or other posters responding here have never had to come up with more extemporaneous "proof". Although "it could happen" as you say....no one in living memory has ever had to do so while re-newing a retirement ext. Another reason to not bring it up. I am certain of that. I could though be wrong on the "No one in living memory" thing.

Long story ...short is that it is commendable that you would never produce these documents unless asked, the mention of them here on this forum is bad form.

I am posting this while trying to be helpful and not cynical at all. Really is directed at future posts. Good luck

[vagabond48]

dam_n,

bill97 your message time 2008-08-26 17:57:35

mapguy your message time 2008-08-26 17:58:36

you sure you guys aren't tied at the waist.

[Bill97]

dam_n,

bill97 your message time 2008-08-26 17:57:35

mapguy your message time 2008-08-26 17:58:36

you sure you guys aren't tied at the waist.

I aint tied to nobody and am sure Mapguy is tied to somebody much prettier than me.

I hope the hel_l you are done now.

[vagabond48]

A couple points the folks here are trying to point out here "quietly" are these, which don't seem to be getting through to you:

We have no way to ascertain who may be reading this forum at any given time. May happen that sometimes immigration employees read this and come up with new nightmares for us to deal with. Nightmares that they weren't aware of YET.I am referencing the whole IRS can of worms.

Another subtle point is that myself or other posters responding here have never had to come up with more extemporaneous "proof". Although "it could happen" as you say....no one in living memory has ever had to do so while re-newing a retirement ext. Another reason to not bring it up. I am certain of that. I could though be wrong on the "No one in living memory" thing.

Long story ...short is that it is commendable that you would never produce these documents unless asked, the mention of them here on this forum is bad form.

I am posting this while trying to be helpful and not cynical at all. Really is directed at future posts. Good luck

I understand your concerns now. I am new with the extension procedure but most of the information I wrote here I got from the very knowledgeable folks on the "Thai visas, residency and work permits" sub forum, which I began monitoring and participating in several months ago. No one on that forum voiced the concerns that apparently exists here, that is why I thought I was being helpful in sharing the information I learned there. If the immigration guys are reading TV, they would most likely read that sub forum 1st.

I do appreciate your polite words and read you loud and clear.

[bunta71]

Well said Billy...whew!!!

[vagabond48]

I hope the hel_l you are done now.

take 3 deep breaths. I have.

[Mapguy]

dam_n,

bill97 your message time 2008-08-26 17:57:35

mapguy your message time 2008-08-26 17:58:36

you sure you guys aren't tied at the waist.

I aint tied to nobody and am sure Mapguy is tied to somebody much prettier than me.

I hope the hel_l you are done now.

Yes, MUCH prettier, I am sure!

[mcgriffith]

Well, although I am not a Thai immigration law expert, nor an attorney, etc. I will weigh in in this topic, before I move it to where it properly resides in the Thai Visa & Immigration sub forum.

2 salient points- the first one is a positive for vagabond48.

How Thai immigration laws are applied by different offices, and immigration officers, varies across the Kingdom. What works in Phuket might not work in Jomtien. Read the above mentioned sub forum for a while and you will get a sense of this.

The bad news is: if you are going the "pension" route, ie using a consular notary statement that says you swear under penalty of perjury (USA legal terms; different terms for UK, EU, etc.) that you have a minimum of 65K B in monthly income, or more.....no, they don't want to see a jumble of 2 or 5 or 7 financial statements from various banks (interest income), insurance companies (annuities), brokerage accounts (sale of equities, bond income, etc.)

They are looking for a clear-cut simple easy-to-comprehend pension statement from:

Your home country government, or

Your previous corporate employer,

or something similar.

It is not an amalgam of multiple sources of income from various investments, rental properties, brokerage accounts, etc.

Not to diminish or disagree with other poster's advice....but there is a 3rd factor here. I call it the "grandfather factor" (no pun intended).

Those who were here many years ago, have been able to successively renew (I believe) under parameters that would not be accepted should they be new applicants today. They have been issued extensions for years; the officers know them and recognize that the extensions have been issued by the self same office.

The rules have have changed as of Oct 2006. Some say it is just an enforcement of existing rules which were ignored previously. Who knows.

My advice is that if you don't have the 800K in a Thai bank account to qualify for the "#2 option", that you contact a Thai attorney or similar specialist to help you out in this process, as it appears your documentation of income falls into a somewhat gray area. Not to say that it won't all work out perfectly.

Best wishes and good luck!

Topic moved to Visa forum.