The Thai Justice System - Do You Have Faith In It?

[roamer]

Guesthouse, you need to expand on this a little. Speaking from experience the Thai civil court system works quite well, certainly a lot better than a lot of other places (try taking a Russian company to court) but I certainly wouldn't want to try my luck in the criminal justice system.

[roamer]

I'd rather not find out the hard way....too many variables. I know of two people personally ( both Thais ) who did not recieve justice. The first, got 2 years imprisonment for buying a fan off a friend for 300 baht. His 'friend' neglected to tell him it was stolen and he was charged with accepting stolen goods. He had no legal representation at all. The second is a friend who runs a travel agents near Khao Sahn Road. She took a lease out on a building for 3 years. After 1 year the owner changed his mind and wanted to evict her to develop the sight. She hired a lawyer to fight the case. He told her she was sure to win. She believed him, lost the case and ended up 500,000 baht worse off.She had every faith in the law before the case....but none now. Its a lottery made worse by trying to find legal representation you can trust at a price you can afford. Best not to put it to the test.

Read the bit in bold type.

Rest my case m,lord.

[siamamerican]

Has anyone been gravely mistreated by the Thai justice system? All the posts so far tell of others that have not received justice or for some other reason don't have any faith in Thai justice. The manner Thais handle petty crimes and traffic offenses are entertaining and fraudulent, but doesn't cause me any sleepless nights.

My only instance of dealing with Thai justice was 6 years ago. My bicycle was stolen from the police storage after an accident. After a few meeting with the police chief, I was given around 120k bt. I didn't feel comfortable with how they dealt with the situation in back room meeting and no documentation, but in the end justice was served.

Also, the police wanted the person to pay my hospital bills. I chose to pay the bills myself. Funny, the family never made any hospital visits after I told them not to worry about the bills.

[Heng]

Heng, the reason there are 3 generations is because you haven't had any trouble with the justice system. When they lock you up here, it probably is the end of the family line!

If they locked up all branches of the at the same time, sure. A handful of Shinawatras in exile, but did you know that there are literally hundreds of Shinawatras?

[MaximumSecurity]

Well we discuss crime quite a bit - but what about Justice - What are your views on the Thai Justice System?

Surprisingly, I and my second law firm were able to get my first lawyer, who cheated me, disbarred for life. I never would have thought that possible, but at least in some cases it worked well.

[MaximumSecurity]

She hired a lawyer to fight the case. He told her she was sure to win. She believed him, lost the case and ended up 500,000 baht worse off.She had every faith in the law before the case....but none now. Its a lottery made worse by trying to find legal representation you can trust at a price you can afford. Best not to put it to the test.

I had an identical situation while still living in Hawaii. My lawyer took on four civil matters concerning my house. After $20,000 in fees, he "won" only one case but against my urging would not stop that defendant from packing up his business and fleeing the state, so I collected nothing of the $27,000 judgement. Then I came to Thailand and while I was here he filed papers saying I owed him $10,000 more in fees (which was a lie). Since I didn't know about this I couldn't present my evidence so the judge (a good buddy of his). He was awarded my Harley which was being customized and worth $40,000 when finished. So lawyers everywhere may share the same competance, chicanery and self-interest.

[GuestHouse]

Guesthouse, you need to expand on this a little. Speaking from experience the Thai civil court system works quite well, certainly a lot better than a lot of other places (try taking a Russian company to court) but I certainly wouldn't want to try my luck in the criminal justice system.

I think the question I asked is pretty specific - It relates to Crime.

[Andrew Hicks]

Well we discuss crime quite a bit - but what about Justice - What are your views on the Thai Justice System?

I am relieved that I have not yet found myself at the mercy of Thai justice but I follow the press and have a few observations to make.

First of all justice and a well functioning legal system is immensely expensive and Thailand does not devote sufficient resources to it.

Secondly, this is not a society where the rule of law is paramount. Power derives from hierarchy and wealth and to a degree grows out of the barrell of a gun.

Thirdly, assumptions regarding justice are fundmentally different. Here society is everything and the individual is secondary. While in the West there is a strong presumption of innocence and it is though better that nine guilty men are acquitted than that a single innocent person is convicted. In Asia generally the collective interest demands that you nail the nine, even if occasionally the innocent man is wrongly convicted.

Everywhere a person is innocent until proven guilty but when exactly is that guilt determined? In imperial China and under Mao the 'police' would investigate and catch the criminal, thus determining his guilt. He would then be dragged before the mandarin and summarily sentence... no not-guilty pleas, no defence lawyers. The police had decided on his guilt already. The primary purpose of this brief hearing was to see to what extent he repented his crimes, thus to decide how harsh a punishment he deserved to bring him back into line.

Elements of this approach remain strong throughout Asia. That's what makes it more acceptable for the police to go in and gun down suspected drug runners as it is they who determine guilt.

I often think that when western critics have a go at Thai justice and the Thais are defensive of their system, it is these fundamental assumptions that make us have such divergent views on the matter.

Are individual rights fundamental or is it the collective interest of society that is paramount, even if sometimes individual rights must be sacrificed?

My own view of my own British justice is that in putting the individual first, that best serves the collective interest of society... but then making that work is extremely expensive and perhaps only a developed society can afford it.

We talk much of promoting democracy throughout the world, but in truth I think it's the rule of law that's even more fundamental and in this respect many developing nations still have a long way to go to throw off the feudal past.

[JiveTalker]

Weird, most people don't trust the Thai justice system but they still chose to live here.

Weird indeed

I don't trust it one bit.

I do however love (most) Thai people, the food, the culture, the scenery and my general day to day existence here. This is why I stay.

That's not too difficult to understand now, is it?

[grantbkk]

We have beat the criminal justice system and personal safety issues to death on Thai Visa. The reason many expats choose Thailand as their home is a varied as the individuals that choose to live here. Part of the allure is the people, a different way of life, economics and a chance to live in the tropics. If Thailand had in place a judicial system that was fair to us and moved cases efficiently many of us would have to take Thailand off of our wish list of places to live. Before you call me crazy just think for a minute the number of government employees, judges, lawyers and yes, even the police that would have to work together to make they system run efficiently. Included in the costs would be addition jails, judicial buildings and other infrastructure necessary to operate this system.

Paying a living wage to all involved would be quite expensive. Like some of the other posters, deep down inside, I like having the option of "the payoff" if, heaven forbid, I make a mistake. Corruption in this feudal society is here to stay for at least a few more generations. There are some very honest people somewhere in the judicial system but there are far more that take bribes and favor the rich. The key to an expat operating within the Thai judicial system is not to ever become involved in it at all. Many of us here like to live life on the edge anyway and we shouldn't go crying to the police for every infraction of the law. From what I read the people from the UK tourists have a greater chance of being killed here than any other holiday destination but they keep coming.

Watch your back and take minimal security precautions so we can at lest stay alive and enjoy our time here.

[Bangyai]

I'd rather not find out the hard way....too many variables. I know of two people personally ( both Thais ) who did not recieve justice. The first, got 2 years imprisonment for buying a fan off a friend for 300 baht. His 'friend' neglected to tell him it was stolen and he was charged with accepting stolen goods. He had no legal representation at all. The second is a friend who runs a travel agents near Khao Sahn Road. She took a lease out on a building for 3 years. After 1 year the owner changed his mind and wanted to evict her to develop the sight. She hired a lawyer to fight the case. He told her she was sure to win. She believed him, lost the case and ended up 500,000 baht worse off.She had every faith in the law before the case....but none now. Its a lottery made worse by trying to find legal representation you can trust at a price you can afford. Best not to put it to the test.

Read the bit in bold type.

Rest my case m,lord.

Precisely.! Before she had hired a lawyer she told me of her intention and said she was going to teach the landlord to abide by his contracts. She felt sure she would prevail as she had the original documents ( lease ) and that the lawyer agreed saying it was an open and shut case. I expressed some reservations on the grounds that if the landlord owned a lot of property in the area he was likely to be rich and with good connections. She was most indignant at my implying that the legal system could not be trusted so I let it go. I've heard so much about dodgy lawyers that I'm disinclined to trust any unless they come with a strong recommendation from someone I know. As Maximum Security pointed out, this is not just a local problem. Sorry about your Harley.

[Pierrot]

As far as I'm concerned, the law in Thailand seems to be fair. The people I know are mostly upper middle class, they have their fair share of trouble with the law, by that I mean when they behave inappropriately, they got into trouble like anybody else.

Then we have the usual story, poor against rich, poor lose because they are poor, rich win because they are rich …. Now just forget your Robin Hood mentality and look as the equation the other way around. Rich are rich because they win, poor are poor because they lose. Most of the losers (poor) have a very weird idea of the law, they see some "moral" stuff when it's only rules and regulations.

It's always the same, if you want to play, first understand the rules. If you join a poker table, you've to play following poker rules. Bridge is a nice game, but if you want to play bridge, you have to join a bridge table.

Sounds stupid ? But that's how I see most people troubles. They join a poker table and expect to play bridge. And when they lose their money, they blame the other players.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pierrot

[taxexile]

Sounds stupid

very.

[Pierrot]

Sounds stupid

very.

Most probably why you feel life is pain

[Pierrot]

Double post

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pierrot

[sriracha john]

Heng, the reason there are 3 generations is because you haven't had any trouble with the justice system. When they lock you up here, it probably is the end of the family line!

If they locked up all branches of the at the same time, sure. A handful of Shinawatras in exile, but did you know that there are literally hundreds of Shinawatras?

[poshthai]

Even the average thai cannot get justice from a rich hi-so thai so what chance have we got.The only good thing for us is thwt we can buy ourselves out of trouble to a certain extent

[Pierrot]

Heng, the reason there are 3 generations is because you haven't had any trouble with the justice system. When they lock you up here, it probably is the end of the family line!

If they locked up all branches of the at the same time, sure. A handful of Shinawatras in exile, but did you know that there are literally hundreds of Shinawatras?

SJ, what you do with your ... "wife", honnestly we're not so interested

[Pierrot]

Heng, the reason there are 3 generations is because you haven't had any trouble with the justice system. When they lock you up here, it probably is the end of the family line!

If they locked up all branches of the at the same time, sure. A handful of Shinawatras in exile, but did you know that there are literally hundreds of Shinawatras?

Wrong thread to post your family pictures !

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pierrot

[sriracha john]

SJ, what you do with your ... "wife", honnestly we're not so interested

sorry, chownah.. but I was offering a possible reason the Shinawatras having such a large brood of misfits.

btw, as they aren't thaivisa members, unlike myself, they aren't protected from flaming.

[sriracha john]

Wrong thread to post your family pictures !

refer to the above post

[Pierrot]

SJ, what you do with your ... "wife", honnestly we're not so interested

sorry, chownah.. but I was offering a possible reason the Shinawatras having such a large brood of misfits.

btw, as they aren't thaivisa members, unlike myself, they aren't protected from flaming.

SJ, I'm such an a$h@le, I'm not that nice with you and you answer by calling me "Chownah"

I really miss the guy, bad temper but he uses to write some very interesting posts. Does anybody know what happend to him ?

Btw, when you say "unlike myself, they aren't protected from flaming" you're joking right ? Temptation, temptation .... Your'e bad S J !

PS : I'm looking for an emoticon "bar brawl" . Any suggestion ?

Edited August 24, 2008 by Pierrot

[sriracha john]

SJ, what you do with your ... "wife", honnestly we're not so interested

sorry, chownah.. but I was offering a possible reason the Shinawatras having such a large brood of misfits.

btw, as they aren't thaivisa members, unlike myself, they aren't protected from flaming.

SJ, I'm such an a$h@le, I'm not that nice with you and you answer by calling me "Chownah"

I really miss the guy, bad temper but he uses to write some very interesting posts. Does anybody know what happend to him ?

Btw, when you say "unlike myself, they aren't protected from flaming" you're joking right ? Temptation, temptation .... Your'e bad S J !

PS : I'm looking for an emoticon "bar brawl" . Any suggestion ?

chownah is not missed, although he's no doubt been replaced.

Sorry if I miscalled you chownah, that must have just been a Freudian slip from force of habit as he and you share many of the same attributes.

[Pierrot]

chownah is not missed, although he's no doubt been replaced.

I miss him, and I know I'm not the only one.

Sorry if I miscalled you chownah, that must have just been a Freudian slip from force of habit as he and you share many of the same attributes.

Please, stop it ...

[Heng]

Heng, the reason there are 3 generations is because you haven't had any trouble with the justice system. When they lock you up here, it probably is the end of the family line!

If they locked up all branches of the at the same time, sure. A handful of Shinawatras in exile, but did you know that there are literally hundreds of Shinawatras?

How's that new agro-biz turning out for ya?

[Bangyai]

Just finished reading about the Aussie guy sentanced to 4 years for murdering an American tourist in Chiang Mai ( missed it earlier ). Another example of the Thai Justice system not delivering the goods.

[wintermute]

Thai justice. That's kind of an oxymoron.

[dal1962]

i spent one year in udon thani prison - without money, i would be dead now... from the police to the jugde to the prison warder - they all wanted a share.....

[tigerboy]

Most of the losers (poor) have a very weird idea of the law, they see some "moral" stuff when it's only rules and regulations.

I thought that was where all of the G*d Da*n rules and regulations originated from, that "moral" stuff. Is it only just a bunch of dribble coming from twits, <deleted>, and bureaucrats then?

OK here's an idea, justice is supposed to be blind right? (Imagine the blindfolded lady with the scales and the sword OK?) And there are more than enough "sight impaired" people walking around Bangkok, and Thailand too for that matter, so why not put them to use? Let them be the judges!

Oh, and things would be a lot quieter on the streets as well as less people to dodge on the sidewalks too...

Edited for text format issues....

Edited December 22, 2008 by tigerboy

[Bangyai]

Yes, some recent decisions have done nothing to restore my faith in Justice.

A Pro Democracy demonstrator , a middle-aged woman , Ms Boonyuen, has just been given a 12 year sentance ( reduced to 6 as she pleaded guilty ) for alleged remarks she made at Sanam Luang.:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=933

She has been very severely dealt with, as is usual with small fish. Big fish like Sondhi or Veera Musikapong manage to get away with this sort of thing. I suppose this is a demonstration of the evenhandedness Aphisit likes to talk about. Clearly more evenhanded towards some than others.

How refreshing to know that the PAD will be brought to justice by the democrats. Sometime ,later .......never it seems.

Both demonstrators in the above article were arrested by the previous govournment who were actually on the same side of the political fence.

It would be nice if this govournment were to show the same evenhanded approach in dealing with its own erstwhile allies instead of just ' talking the talk .'

Strange to reflect on the fate of the Australian man who pumped 3 bullets into an American in Chiang Mai last year.....what was his sentance......4 years ???

Edited January 10, 2009 by Bangyai