PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[ubonjoe]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

[h90]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

And as well they never openly support PAD. So for what do they stay? There is just one reason to vote for the Democrats: "The other parties are worse".

Fight with the PPP, but don't make them too much angry. Support the PAD, but not too much, between blaming them that they are not democratic.

That way they will lose the next election as well.

[geovalin]

I talked with a PAD member during the weekend. At first she insisted that they wanted to overthrow the govt. because it was elected by vote buying and all real Thai hated Thaksin (they only voted fr him and PPP because of being given money). When I said I had met many Thai's who genuinely seemed to love Thaksin she admitted this was true. But the thing is these Thai's come from Issan and are apparently of 'low intelligence' (her words). According to her it is a known fact that the North east population is too dumb to be able to choose anything as important as a government. She gave me some Thia proverb about how they only know eating rice morning and evening (I couldn't really understand it).

Hence, as she explains it, any votes from Issan can't be seriously considered as part of a democratic process.

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

[Samuian]

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

Well then read this, there are differing "opinions"....why the democrats as the oldest party "loses" the "elections"....

The facts about vote-buying and the patronage system

By Chang Noi

Published on September 1, 2008

Over the last couple of years, concern about vote-buying has been on the rise. The story goes like this. Voters upcountry are too poor and too poorly educated. Some sell their vote for cash on the spot. Others are victims of "the patronage system" and obey the instructions of a patron on how to vote in return for continuing patronage of various kinds.

The argument then continues: vote-buying and the patronage system mean that one-man/one-vote elections cannot work in Thailand. There needs to be some "Thai-style" alternative. This might be some corporatist method of representation such as the People's Alliance for Democracy proposed. It might mean diminishing the power of the elected Parliament, and returning more power to the bureaucracy.

According to legend, vote-buying began in spectacular fashion in Roi Et in 1981, engineered by people in the military. It then swelled over the following two decades. At election time, banks calculate massive rises in money circulation, and journalists love describing complex systems involving lotteries. A brilliant study done in Ayutthaya in the mid-1990s showed that monks, gunmen, and local officials were all deeply involved. Vote-buying is part of the political culture; of that there is little doubt.

But vote-buying is not a simple matter. The practice has been in place for a quarter-century. The number of elections has multiplied - for Parliament, Senate, municipality, provincial council, sub-district council, and so on. Thais have become some of the most experienced voters in the world. There has been a lot of learning about how to use the vote.

Source:

THAI TALK

Thaksin the puppeteer is pulling the strings again

By Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

Published on August 28, 2008

WHATEVER the outcome of the storming of Government House by the People's Alliance for Democracy on Tuesday, Thaksin Shinawatra will plunge back into Thai politics in full force.

It's the same game he has played in Thai politics all along. Thaksin was willing to do anything "as long as it doesn't change anything else". In other words, if he retains his enormous influence within the ruling party, he would be willing to go through the motion of pledging "not to get involved in politics ever again".

Full Article:

So much about Thai Politics, it's all or nothing, no matter what, they "know" best, don't they?

[RadioCityMike]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

Don't worry UbonJoe. It is a common phrase. I have heard it many times. I did wonder for a moment if you were writing for the Bangkok Post. And I also agee with the article.

[ando]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

I have to disagree with part of the authors assessment in that link.

In particular I refer to the reasons why Samak seems powerless to stop PADs illegal occupation of Government House.

The writer said, -- " Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's role in the October 1976 suppression also constrains him from being seen as trigger-happy. As a result, Mr Samak has allowed the PAD to rule the streets and illegally occupy Government House. "

And.

" Mr Samak cannot crack down on the illegal occupants of Government House for fear of what is perceived as his past sins and the potential for a broad-based confrontation and violence."

I don't believe this is true at all. Samak was quite prepared to use riot police to remove protesters from government house until the court folded to PADs resistance and withdrew its eviction order giving Samak legal authority to use force. This was a failure of the courts to perform their lawful duty and left Samak on dubious legal and moral ground if he had proceeded to clear the occupiers by force. I don't believe Samak is worried about his tough guy image at all. In fact the great majority of the countries voters would no doubt support him if he was to use reasonable force to remove PAD from government house. After all, its what any responsible leader in any developed democracy would do and indeed would be obligated to do.

Another factor of course is that a violent clash between riot police and PAD protesters would run the risk of initiating a military coup against the government.

It has been reported that the military chiefs have refused to comply with any directive to remove the protesters if Samak declares a state of emergency, but have instead suggested Samak should resign. Although this attitude may change after the military reshuffle.

It has also been reported in the media that in his audience with the King on Saturday, Samak was directed to avoid violence and to go softly and gently against the protesters.

With the courts, the military and the King all refusing to back a forceful eviction of the protesters Samak has little choice but to sit this confrontation out.

"

[Samuian]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

[ubonjoe]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

Don't worry UbonJoe. It is a common phrase. I have heard it many times. I did wonder for a moment if you were writing for the Bangkok Post. And I also agee with the article.

Thanks

At least anybody that reads the article from this forum has a definition of "in cahoots with"

[animatic]

I think that many of the PAD people do believe that they are fighting the good fight-

Of course they do, but no one explained to them that in a democracy you don't fight for change, you vote for it. It's not a perfect system by any means, but the alternatives are worse.

Democracy means that you can demonstrate without being afraid to go to jail (or worse).

Democracy means equal rights for everyone and not just for a small, rich, group

Democracy means the opportunity to think critically.

Democracy means the chance to be assertive.

Democracy means fair elections, a valid and reliable choice of government.

You really think that Thailand is a democracy?

Sadly this describe several 'democraciesi around the world.

The question is more can a democracy put in enough strong teeth

to fight rampant corruption while a small percentage of actual population

is enough to put in a government?

16 million put in the current government? Yes? Not 50% of the voters

Less than 40% of the country voted for PPP. it is not a majority.

If one allows for vote buying on some arbitrary percentage say 5%

then that figure goes even lower, we have had convictions from PPP

for vote buying at the highest levels. So likely that percentage,

if ALL incidents came to light, would be much higher.

And thus the governments 'mandate' much much lower.

PPP did nothing more than win the right to first chance to cobble together

a coalition government. And vote of no confidence can render it asunder

easily enough. The only things keeping this coalition together is the

prospects of a piece of the pie from quickly announced 'Mega-Projects'

and periodic calls from Dr. T. reminding them of his largeses in the future

if they play ball in the present.

It has been said the Legal Government has 'no need of tactics'

Of course this is absurd ALL goverrnments use tactics and stategy

to gain advantage even with HUGE majorities. Jeaques Chirac won 80%

of the vote in a french election, because the alternative was Jen Marie LePen

singularly a bad choice on most eyes. That didn't stop him from using tactics

and strategy for the rst of he term. An absurd argument.

There is no argument that a purely democratic government is the utopian best choice.

But in the short term how to put in place strong enough measures to get a

PROPER and FIT democratic government is open for debate. i think the 70:30 ratio

bandied about is not the best choice, but the discussion of it brings out alternative ideas.

People say the army will make those choices, but that doesn't seem to be the only option.

Right now the army IS doing the same thing that some, not all, from PAD has been suggesting

in the 70:30 scenario. This doesn't seem to change the staus quo a jot. Same role for the army as now.

And it never gets mentioned that a higher authority would likely be signing off on the lists.

In any case what we have now is not working. It has been said let the government go back to work.

I can think of shockingly little they have successfully done in the last 6 months for the benefit of the

country. One can not blame PAD in their earlier role as talking heads for the ineptitude of the last

6 months. Most governments have groups as loud baying at them and still function.

Thsi government has been singularly inept at functioning. to the point of having charges brought

for malfesance in office and lack of understanding of the cdonstitution enough to sign off in illegal

treaties, in such an incorect manner that the FM had to resign in disgrace and since the

WHOLE cabinet voted on an illegal treaty they are equally culpable and incompetent also.

But they were legally voted in? Ok, are they doing the job legally? Competently? Even handedly?

Seem pretty clear the only answer is no.

At the end of the joint session Kuhn Samak said

"I'm not the problem and I'm not a bad guy,"

I remember Mr Nixon saying something similar.

"I am not a crook." about 6 months before he

resigned rather than face impeachment and disgrace.

Those that cling to power even at the risk of fracturing the country

risk a legacy much worse than their loss of power by bowing out gracefully.

But Mr, Samak's bulldog instincts to fight to the BITTER end, certainly were

part of Dr. T.s calculation when cherry picking him from retirement for the

role of PM spoiler in chief. He doesn't back down no matter what

collateral damage is caused. This IS bitter to be sure.

Democary with out personal responasability to your electorate AS A WHOLE

is not proper democracy.

Mr T. saying; if your district doesn't vote for me, don't expect ANY development funds,

is not proper democracy

Attempting to retroactively rejigger the laws so those in power can avoid losing power

is NOT proper democracy.

I see a consistent effort to tar the messenger if you don't like the message

and a consistent effort to laud the 'legitimate government', without directly

contradicting the negative elements of the 'legal' bodies problems.

They are legal, for the moment, so can do what they want, the people have spoken.

The question must be asked what did the people expect in return for their vote?

are they getting it now?

I think both questions are answered in contradictions not affirmations.

Yes ideas, not events, not people. Sometimes people are the events,

and the ideas they represent are in serious need of discussion.

The idea that Kuhn Samak can improve the lot of the country MORE

by bowing out gracefully and allowing a new coalition to take over,

without dissolving parlement and causing new elections is a viable one.

Not because it abrogates democracy, but because it USES democracy

in one of it's harder aspects for the betterment of the populace as a WHOLE

not for the small interest group he particularly represents.

The divisions are too deep and he can lead the healing if he is wise.

or he can fight to the bitter end claoked in democracy,

without using democracy to bring the country together.

HE alone has this choice.

Edited September 1, 2008 by animatic

[blaze]

Wait a Minute! THE Government did not ,and does not need to use Tactics! IT IS the Government elected by a majority in a Democracy.It IS therefore Legitimized and Legal.It has already the supporting Mandate of the overwhelming public.And has seemingly thus far stood by the laws of the land and even Bent over backwards to afford peaceful resolve.If this were most other countries the Legal force would have been Hard!The Government is NOT a Faction it IS The Government!

wait a minute! this government is not legal. like you are not allowed to open a bank account for someone else (maybe a terrorist) you are not allowed to play the pm for your puppetmaster (maybe a bailjumping warranted fugitive) have you people all forgotten 'honesty', 'integrity', 'reliability', 'responsibility'? all words samak obviously doesn't know and never knew. his 'credo' seems to be 'greed', 'power', 'treachery', 'callousness' & 'corruption'. 'helterskelter' (what a name!) can use as much big words as mr josef goebbels, it does not make them better. i sometimes suspect, he wants to 'liberate' thailand as gwb did 'liberate' iraq. a corrupt regime, allowing you to make best business is not, what 'democracy' means. it means = "the people rule" and not = "rule the people". when will you ever learn?

Who finally determines whether or not a government in Thailand is legal? Sondhi? You? As long as institutions of even more gravitus than the court have determined this government is legal, then that's what we have to live with. And by royal proclamation, as well as by the fact that the courts have not ruled this government to be illigitamte (yet) then you can protest it's policies, it's principles (or lack thereof) but not it's legitimacy. (using legitimacy in the strictest sense of the word) and legal right to govern..

excuse me blaze. it was you who started that argument by calling this corrupt votebuying undemocratic regime 'legal', 'elected', 'legitimized' and what not.... i just tried to demonstrate, that you cannot decide on that! only thai people can and will finally, amongst them the pad protesters and not you! i think,you've got the message, coz you're protesting wildly, when somebody uses your senseless argument just upside down......never mind, mai pben rai

I think you missed my point: the Thai people don't decide if the government is legitimate- legitimate meaning 'legal'- and I certainly don't decide that either. That decision is made by the courts. If this government is illegitmate, the courts will make that decsions- hopefully on the basis of law and not the basis of its popularity. If the PAD is demanding that the courts evaluate the legality of the current government, that is fine- they have my support. But that's NOT what they are demanding- they have taken it upon themselves to serve as judge, jury and executioner.

[joe beets]

@ Journalist -

re: Post #3115

Thanks for sharing that. Good reading.

Glad I didn't succumb to temptation and block your posts.

I wish your family a safe trip.

Peace.

[Moonrakers]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

I have noticed that alot of Isaan people refer to their home as "My country", as opposed to Up-country, my home ect.

Of course this could just be down to a lack of English skills or something lost in the translation, or could it be something more significant?

[catmac]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

My opinion, too, Ubonjoe. If the Democratic Party had contested the 2006 election, instead of boycotting it after realising that they didn't stand a cat's chance in hel_l of not being humiliatingly defeated by TRT we might not be in the mess we are.

[blaze]

A very good article.

One paragraph really got my attention though.

"The forces in cahoots with the PAD are now conspicuous. The Democrat party, which has lost the elections time and again and is still unable and unwilling to focus on appealing policies, has never categorically rejected the PAD methods and objectives. Leading Democrats have visited the PAD at Government House, and a Democrat MP has been a PAD organiser from the outset. "

I swear that I did not read this article before posting a reply to a question about the term "in bed with" before changing it to "in cahoots with".

This is an opion that I have had since the Democrat party boycotted the elections April of 06.

Well then read this, there are differing "opinions"....why the democrats as the oldest party "loses" the "elections"....

The facts about vote-buying and the patronage system

By Chang Noi

Published on September 1, 2008

Over the last couple of years, concern about vote-buying has been on the rise. The story goes like this. Voters upcountry are too poor and too poorly educated. Some sell their vote for cash on the spot. Others are victims of "the patronage system" and obey the instructions of a patron on how to vote in return for continuing patronage of various kinds.

The argument then continues: vote-buying and the patronage system mean that one-man/one-vote elections cannot work in Thailand. There needs to be some "Thai-style" alternative. This might be some corporatist method of representation such as the People's Alliance for Democracy proposed. It might mean diminishing the power of the elected Parliament, and returning more power to the bureaucracy.

According to legend, vote-buying began in spectacular fashion in Roi Et in 1981, engineered by people in the military. It then swelled over the following two decades. At election time, banks calculate massive rises in money circulation, and journalists love describing complex systems involving lotteries. A brilliant study done in Ayutthaya in the mid-1990s showed that monks, gunmen, and local officials were all deeply involved. Vote-buying is part of the political culture; of that there is little doubt.

But vote-buying is not a simple matter. The practice has been in place for a quarter-century. The number of elections has multiplied - for Parliament, Senate, municipality, provincial council, sub-district council, and so on. Thais have become some of the most experienced voters in the world. There has been a lot of learning about how to use the vote.

Source:

THAI TALK

Thaksin the puppeteer is pulling the strings again

By Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

Published on August 28, 2008

WHATEVER the outcome of the storming of Government House by the People's Alliance for Democracy on Tuesday, Thaksin Shinawatra will plunge back into Thai politics in full force.

It's the same game he has played in Thai politics all along. Thaksin was willing to do anything "as long as it doesn't change anything else". In other words, if he retains his enormous influence within the ruling party, he would be willing to go through the motion of pledging "not to get involved in politics ever again".

Full Article:

So much about Thai Politics, it's all or nothing, no matter what, they "know" best, don't they?

Too bad you didn't include Chiang Noi's concluding sentence: " The bleating about vote-buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working."

[medegen]

The Bangkok Post is PPP's Monkeyboy. The Nation isn't as one sided as The Bangkok post is.

[ubonjoe]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

I have to disagree with part of the authors assessment in that link.

In particular I refer to the reasons why Samak seems powerless to stop PADs illegal occupation of Government House.

The writer said, -- " Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's role in the October 1976 suppression also constrains him from being seen as trigger-happy. As a result, Mr Samak has allowed the PAD to rule the streets and illegally occupy Government House. "

And.

" Mr Samak cannot crack down on the illegal occupants of Government House for fear of what is perceived as his past sins and the potential for a broad-based confrontation and violence."

I don't believe this is true at all. Samak was quite prepared to use riot police to remove protesters from government house until the court folded to PADs resistance and withdrew its eviction order giving Samak legal authority to use force. This was a failure of the courts to perform their lawful duty and left Samak on dubious legal and moral ground if he had proceeded to clear the occupiers by force. I don't believe Samak is worried about his tough guy image at all. In fact the great majority of the countries voters would no doubt support him if he was to use reasonable force to remove PAD from government house. After all, its what any responsible leader in any developed democracy would do and indeed would be obligated to do.

Another factor of course is that a violent clash between riot police and PAD protesters would run the risk of initiating a military coup against the government.

It has been reported that the military chiefs have refused to comply with any directive to remove the protesters if Samak declares a state of emergency, but have instead suggested Samak should resign. Although this attitude may change after the military reshuffle.

It has also been reported in the media that in his audience with the King on Saturday, Samak was directed to avoid violence and to go softly and gently against the protesters.

With the courts, the military and the King all refusing to back a forceful eviction of the protesters Samak has little choice but to sit this confrontation out.

"

Because of the events that occured in 1992, 1976 and at at other times where the reaction to protests and demonstrations that lead to the deaths of many that has been highly publicized in recent years any Prime Minister, General or goverment would be highly reluctant to use force because of the publics reaction to it. We have seen that this week where they were accused of "brutality" by a lot of people. When in reality overall did it in a very restrained manor.

Edited September 1, 2008 by ubonjoe

[blaze]

The Bangkok Post is PPP's Monkeyboy. The Nation isn't as one sided as The Bangkok post is.

Chiang Noi's column, concluding that the notion of an election bought by the PPP is a myth propulgated by people who fear democracy, was printed in the Nation.

[Old Man River]

The Bangkok Post is PPP's Monkeyboy. The Nation isn't as one sided as The Bangkok post is.

Chiang Noi's column, concluding that the notion of an election bought by the PPP is a myth propulgated by people who fear democracy, was printed in the Nation.

Below is the link to Bangkok Pundit's posting of the Chang Noi article:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/09/...mocracy-is.html

[ando]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

It is no secret that the people of Issarn, which comprises several Thai provinces in the North East of the country, are ethnically different from Central and Southern Thais. They even speak their own dialect more akin to the Lao language than Thai. The people of Issarn comprise almost one third of Thailands population and so are a powerful voting bloc in a democracy. Hence PADs aim to disenfranchise their vote. They are the poorest group in Thai society surviving mainly on agriculture based on poor quality soils subject to drought and flooding largely without irrigation. Issarn, because of its poverty, supplies much of the labour for the brothels and factories owned by the elite ruling class.

[philstone]

I have to admit that I wish in my country the people running for office will give me money to vote for them. The only these people do is tax my income. I think the Thai method is better little taxes or no taxes and being paid to vote The USA and Europe could little from this. Does anyone think the leaders can be worst then they are now.

Obama McCain should pay up front for the votes instead of begging for people to send them money. They can learn.

[younghusband]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

I have noticed that alot of Isaan people refer to their home as "My country", as opposed to Up-country, my home ect.

Of course this could just be down to a lack of English skills or something lost in the translation, or could it be something more significant?

Historical footnote: Until as recently as the mid nineteenth century and certainly throughout the eighteenth century it was very common in England for someone from Yorkshire,Cornwall,Kent or wherever to decribe their county as their "country".

In Thailand it's very difficult to pinpoint whether one group is more Thai than any other.Are the mainly ethnically Chinese Bangkok middle class, whose recent ancestors were often coolies in Southern China, more "Thai" than say the mainly Muslim population in the Southern provinces who have been settled there for many centuries?The fact is notwithstanding the unhistorical gobblededook in school text books the Thais are an extraordinarily diverse group of ethnicities -Shan,Lao Khmer.Chinese. Indian, Malaysian, Mon etc etc.The Thai state has been very effective in developing a sense of Thai identity in the last century mainly but not exclusively through the school system:this is a real and often unremarked on achievement in which the monarchy has played an important part.

From time to time one group or another is deemed somehow less Thai than another.The Isaan population formerly fell into this category but is now so integrated, numerically strong and increasingly well educated that this doesn't really work whatever patronising nonsense is spouted by some PAD people.Sadly many Thais see the Muslim southerners as non -Thai, and that simply reflects the fact that assimilation efforts haven't been successful there.In the early part of the twentieth century the Chinese (The Jews of Asia as one Thai monarch described them) were out of favour:now they dominate every aspect of Thai society and are very well integrated.The wheel turns and turns.

[ando]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

I have to disagree with part of the authors assessment in that link.

In particular I refer to the reasons why Samak seems powerless to stop PADs illegal occupation of Government House.

The writer said, -- " Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's role in the October 1976 suppression also constrains him from being seen as trigger-happy. As a result, Mr Samak has allowed the PAD to rule the streets and illegally occupy Government House. "

And.

" Mr Samak cannot crack down on the illegal occupants of Government House for fear of what is perceived as his past sins and the potential for a broad-based confrontation and violence."

I don't believe this is true at all. Samak was quite prepared to use riot police to remove protesters from government house until the court folded to PADs resistance and withdrew its eviction order giving Samak legal authority to use force. This was a failure of the courts to perform their lawful duty and left Samak on dubious legal and moral ground if he had proceeded to clear the occupiers by force. I don't believe Samak is worried about his tough guy image at all. In fact the great majority of the countries voters would no doubt support him if he was to use reasonable force to remove PAD from government house. After all, its what any responsible leader in any developed democracy would do and indeed would be obligated to do.

Another factor of course is that a violent clash between riot police and PAD protesters would run the risk of initiating a military coup against the government.

It has been reported that the military chiefs have refused to comply with any directive to remove the protesters if Samak declares a state of emergency, but have instead suggested Samak should resign. Although this attitude may change after the military reshuffle.

It has also been reported in the media that in his audience with the King on Saturday, Samak was directed to avoid violence and to go softly and gently against the protesters.

With the courts, the military and the King all refusing to back a forceful eviction of the protesters Samak has little choice but to sit this confrontation out.

"

Because of the events that occured in 1992, 1976 and at at other times where the reaction to protests and demonstrations that lead to the deaths of many that has been highly publicized in recent years any Prime Minister, General or goverment would be highly reluctant to use force because of the publics reaction to it. We have seen that this week where they were accused of "brutality" by a lot of people. When in reality overall did it in a very restrained manor.

Yes, I do acknowledge your point there.

Its quite obvious that PAD has been actively seeking confrontation and a violent response from the government in the hope of inciting another military coup.

[geovalin]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

It is no secret that the people of Issarn, which comprises several Thai provinces in the North East of the country, are ethnically different from Central and Southern Thais. They even speak their own dialect more akin to the Lao language than Thai. The people of Issarn comprise almost one third of Thailands population and so are a powerful voting bloc in a democracy. Hence PADs aim to disenfranchise their vote. They are the poorest group in Thai society surviving mainly on agriculture based on poor quality soils subject to drought and flooding largely without irrigation. Issarn, because of its poverty, supplies much of the labour for the brothels and factories owned by the elite ruling class.

I know there are differences betweens some populations in the Thai Kingdom.

In France, a Breton will feel different from an Alasacian or a Languedocien or a Corse (even if it's something I personally cannot understand) but we feel that a vote from one of us has the same value than the one of a guy located at 800 km. Same in US between a San Francisco professor and redneck from Alabama.

My point is: do you think this ... PAD despises people from Issan just because they are Isarn?

[blaze]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

I have to disagree with part of the authors assessment in that link.

In particular I refer to the reasons why Samak seems powerless to stop PADs illegal occupation of Government House.

The writer said, -- " Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's role in the October 1976 suppression also constrains him from being seen as trigger-happy. As a result, Mr Samak has allowed the PAD to rule the streets and illegally occupy Government House. "

And.

" Mr Samak cannot crack down on the illegal occupants of Government House for fear of what is perceived as his past sins and the potential for a broad-based confrontation and violence."

I don't believe this is true at all. Samak was quite prepared to use riot police to remove protesters from government house until the court folded to PADs resistance and withdrew its eviction order giving Samak legal authority to use force. This was a failure of the courts to perform their lawful duty and left Samak on dubious legal and moral ground if he had proceeded to clear the occupiers by force. I don't believe Samak is worried about his tough guy image at all. In fact the great majority of the countries voters would no doubt support him if he was to use reasonable force to remove PAD from government house. After all, its what any responsible leader in any developed democracy would do and indeed would be obligated to do.

Another factor of course is that a violent clash between riot police and PAD protesters would run the risk of initiating a military coup against the government.

It has been reported that the military chiefs have refused to comply with any directive to remove the protesters if Samak declares a state of emergency, but have instead suggested Samak should resign. Although this attitude may change after the military reshuffle.

It has also been reported in the media that in his audience with the King on Saturday, Samak was directed to avoid violence and to go softly and gently against the protesters.

With the courts, the military and the King all refusing to back a forceful eviction of the protesters Samak has little choice but to sit this confrontation out.

"

Because of the events that occured in 1992, 1976 and at at other times where the reaction to protests and demonstrations that lead to the deaths of many that has been highly publicized in recent years any Prime Minister, General or goverment would be highly reluctant to use force because of the publics reaction to it. We have seen that this week where they were accused of "brutality" by a lot of people. When in reality overall did it in a very restrained manor.

Yes, I do acknowledge your point there.

Its quite obvious that PAD has been actively seeking confrontation and a violent response from the government in the hope of inciting another military coup.

...which should be no surprise considering the elation and celebration that many in Bangkok greeted the last coup with. - tanks festooned with flower garlands,, yellow shirt matrons handing out ice cream to semi dazed young infantryment- kids photographed with grinning soldiers, coyote girls prancing around in abbreviated military garb- An avuncular old PM appointed by a handsome young general- those were gooooood times.

[animatic]

Well another court has accepted another suit against Dr T. for malfeasence in office.

Supreme Court accepts mobile phone concession suit against Thaksin

The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions Monday accepted a lawsuit filed against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, accusing him of abusing authority to benefit mobile phone concession of his family.

Thaksin was accused by the suit filed by public prosecutors of causing damages worth Bt66 billion to the state by allowing government agencies concerned to amend the mobile concession contract with Shin Corp.

The court scheduled the first hearing on October 15.

The Nation

The courts don't accept suits unless they see reasonable facts

to make them believe there was a crime committed.

Conviction is for later, but essentially there is enough question

of fact about his dealings in numerous cases, so far most

accepted by courts for adjudication.

So far a scathingly negative track record for his term in office.

Unless you want to argue the PAD has co-opted the courts.

Will this argument come from those defending the current regime,

because the courts have not YET invalidated them?

[blaze]

Well another court has accepted another suit against Dr T. for malfeasence in office.

Supreme Court accepts mobile phone concession suit against Thaksin

The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions Monday accepted a lawsuit filed against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, accusing him of abusing authority to benefit mobile phone concession of his family.

Thaksin was accused by the suit filed by public prosecutors of causing damages worth Bt66 billion to the state by allowing government agencies concerned to amend the mobile concession contract with Shin Corp.

The court scheduled the first hearing on October 15.

The Nation

The courts don't accept suits unless they see reasonable facts

to make them believe there was a crime committed.

Conviction is for later, but essentially there is enough question

of fact about his dealings in numerous cases, so far most

accepted by courts for adjudication.

So far a scathingly negative track record for his term in office.

Unless you want to argue the PAD has co-opted the courts.

Will this argument come from those defending the current regime,

because the courts have not YET invalidated them?

I don't quite follow your reasoning- is it that should Thaksin be found guilty in the consessions case, that guilt must be shared with the current government?

Edited September 1, 2008 by blaze

[animatic]

Very interesting!

Other posters, please confirm or invalidate.

As a French I studied the colonial history in this region and the French was surprised, in 1893, to see that Siam stopped at Korat. After, it was the 3 Siamese colonies (Lao, Khmer and Issan). By chance (I do no tell it's good or not, it's just chance, at the English and not French meaning), 2 areas became French then independent and one remained Siamese.

What the PAD members Clausewitz met meant is that the Issan people are not really Thai and should not have the same rights than the genuine Thai. Am I right or am I raving?

Important because, besides to the other flaws, PAD members could be just RACISTS.

I am afraid - you are very close to some very sobering truth. The"great divide" running criss-cross through the country.

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

Many Bangkokians and People from the central plains consider them selves as Thai, and fellow country people from north east "Isarn" as "Lao", from around Si Saket (Preah Vihar) as Khmer, from the North as "Khun Nuea" , from South as "Dai"...

Look at the current development, the Democrats stronghold is the South... Airports closures, protests in Suratthani, Nakhon si Thammarat, Hat Yai, Puket, Songkla, Samui...

hope the gap isn't "opened" by some insensitive people any further, this could end in an unforeseen disaster!

One may include "Lanna" - the north once an independent kingdom and it's many times promote still today this way!

I have noticed that alot of Isaan people refer to their home as "My country", as opposed to Up-country, my home ect.

Of course this could just be down to a lack of English skills or something lost in the translation, or could it be something more significant?

Historical footnote: Until as recently as the mid nineteenth century and certainly throughout the eighteenth century it was very common in England for someone from Yorkshire,Cornwall,Kent or wherever to decribe their county as their "country".

In Thailand it's very difficult to pinpoint whether one group is more Thai than any other.Are the mainly ethnically Chinese Bangkok middle class, whose recent ancestors were often coolies in Southern China, more "Thai" than say the mainly Muslim population in the Southern provinces who have been settled there for many centuries?The fact is notwithstanding the unhistorical gobblededook in school text books the Thais are an extraordinarily diverse group of ethnicities -Shan,Lao Khmer.Chinese. Indian, Malaysian, Mon etc etc.The Thai state has been very effective in developing a sense of Thai identity in the last century mainly but not exclusively through the school system:this is a real and often unremarked on achievement in which the monarchy has played an important part.

From time to time one group or another is deemed somehow less Thai than another.The Isaan population formerly fell into this category but is now so integrated, numerically strong and increasingly well educated that this doesn't really work whatever patronising nonsense is spouted by some PAD people.Sadly many Thais see the Muslim southerners as non -Thai, and that simply reflects the fact that assimilation efforts haven't been successful there.In the early part of the twentieth century the Chinese (The Jews of Asia as one Thai monarch described them) were out of favour:now they dominate every aspect of Thai society and are very well integrated.The wheel turns and turns.

Ah yes the official effort at 'Nation Building" used in the Thai school system.

Q) how does one bring various and different ethnic groups together

under ONE BANNER, AS ONE PEOPLE. When they have connection s

with the peoples on ALL SIDES of them. Geographic bounderies are one help,

but even then traders have been fathering children across mountain ranges for millenia.

The blood is very intermingled for thousands of years. The cultures are intertwined inextricably.

This is a VERY young democracy, how do you bring all the people together

under one flag and do it in record time?

Yes of course! The schools must remove most semblances of difference

Uniforms for all, no uniform = no schooling.

Scouting as a way or inculcatating an orderly people willing to get in line.

And demonization of 'The Others'... yes you can't build a nation unless

there is someone who you are not. An OTHER to draw a differentiation from.

We are STILL hearing about the 1765 war with Burma and how badly Thais had it then.

This was 250+ years ago. But children are taught that Burmese are their enemies.

And I have met many, who while sober, seem to treat them fairly,

but 3-5 drinks into the night and the old school training comes out

and god help any Burmese nearby. Seen it first hand too many times.

By no means a majority, but too many.

This also applies to Khemers too, speak with too much of a Lao accent

and you get looked down on no matter how successful you are.

This comes down to long term indoctrination.

Is it any wonder Issan folk, being closely allied with Lao speech

are demonized easily in Thai society. Looked down on without question,

because people were trained long and hard to do that.

Same goes for hilltribes, written of in school books as some of

the greatest enemies of the Thai state, because they want to keep

their own indentities and oral histories and not switch completely

to generic Thai identity.

They can be 100% loyal to the country and still be themselves.

Yet the schools teach that this is impossible

Conform 100% or be the enemy.

Sounds like George Bush and his conservatives

A disease the USA is just recovering from

Is it any wonder there is confusion about voters abilities to make good decisions.

People are trained to believe the non conforming are bad.

Trained to believe Laos accented people are sub-standard because they

are too closely Khemer and not 'Thai'.

Is it any wonder that some of this indoctrinated mind set is grafted on PAD,

it sure is grafted on PPP in their cynical manipulation of the Isaan populace.

Edited September 1, 2008 by animatic

[pumpuiman]

A concise and informative post that will be ignored by the supporters of the mob that has,without question, blatantly broken the law by shutting down airports, raiding a television station, tearing down barricades and attacking a police station as well as countless other infractions that are far removed from what is defined as peaceful assembly.

oh pumpui, are you a cowboy? law & order? superman? how do you know all this? who told you? you need not listen to me, but please listen to 'reason'!

1. the peaceful protest has done no harm for month and did not change anything, right?

2. suddenly someone started violence in yellow shirts. why should pad have done this? why don't you ever consider a setup by provocateurs?

3. don't blatantly mix up a legal 'strike' with you just having countless beers to much in the bar. it is not the same!

4. you are so confused and uninformed, that you can't even remember, if your boss told you to accuse pad of building or of tearing down barricades. go back and ask him, what it really was and try to be more concise next time!

Are you joking?

The PAD broke in to the NBT station...this is common knowledge.

Are you referring to the occupation and shutdown of international airports as a "legal" strike? Or are all those people in yellow shirts on the tarmac and blocking entrances and exits figments of the worlds imagination?

The PAD broke down barricades before the incident at the police station. This has been published...look it up.

Accusing me of working for some anonymous conspiratorial boss speaks volumes about your credibility

[ubonjoe]

Commentary: White turns black

PAD has failed me and, I believe, many of its supporters for its disrespect for the rule of law, manifest in the storming of the NBT building and threatening its staff, defiance of the court order and for its continuing occupation of Government House.

By Veera Prateepchaikul

The writer is Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Post Publishing Co Ltd.

Go to http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130227

For the complete article.

[ando]

I know there are differences betweens some populations in the Thai Kingdom.

In France, a Breton will feel different from an Alasacian or a Languedocien or a Corse (even if it's something I personally cannot understand) but we feel that a vote from one of us has the same value than the one of a guy located at 800 km. Same in US between a San Francisco professor and redneck from Alabama.

My point is: do you think this ... PAD despises people from Issan just because they are Isarn?

No. I don't think PAD despises the people of Issarn. The people who PAD represent (urban elite mainly of Chinese origin) need the people of Issarn as cheap labour to support their own lifestyle and level of wealth. A true democratic system of government would have to make some concessions to the people of Issarn at the expense of the urban elite ruling class due to the numerical voting power of Issarn. I am talking things like better health care, general infrastructure, more productive enterprises and education. Those things are starting to happen now and the ruling elite perceive it as a threat to their power and status. A more level social playing field would be to the disadvantage of the urban elite masters in Bangkok. Even though Issarn people are regarded as inferior lower class citizens by the central an southern middle and elite class, they are much needed to do the menial and dirty jobs for very low pay under the present status quo.

As stated in an earlier post, the people of Issarn don't really produce much to benefit the countries economy except a cheap source of labour. The main industry is agriculture on mainly marginal soils and therefore incomes are quite low even by Thai standards. So basically we have one third of the countries population caught in a trap of debt and poverty. The wealthy ruling class would like to keep it this way but as democratically elected governments have to offer some incentives to voters in order to get into power, the people of Issarn are slowly gaining a better deal under a democratic system. Such is the reason PAD wants to exclude them from their right to vote in future elections.