If Not Qualifications, What?

[dugdig]

The "qualifications vs experience" debate rages on everywhere people are employed as teachers. My question is:

If qualifications are bogus, then if YOU were to open a school in Thailand how would YOU decide out of the dozens of applications who to hire and who to not?

[kenkannif]

Make them do demo lessons, take a class, make some lesson plans, ask them questions etc. in regards to teaching....basically make sure they're capable of doing the job! Probably the best way to do things regardless of how many pieces of paper they hold.

[Ijustwannateach]

^What he said!

1. Do they seem nervous or confident in front of the demo class?

2. Do they seem to have mastered the material? Can they answer questions about it comprehensively?

3. How are their classroom management skills?

4. Do their answers to your interview questions reveal a lot of real-world experience in classroom teaching, especially of the right age range?

5. Do their reactions to the job requirements you discuss show that they think it is routine, or that it's all news to them?

The recommendation is where you find out about them as employees, and the transcripts give you the basic quals and educational background.

"Steven"

[dugdig]

So if you've got 50 applicants you are going to look at 50 sets of lesson plans and question 50 applicants to determine if they understand the material adequately and sit through 50 demo classes so that you can pick one applicant? It looks like you've got full time work for at least 2 weeks to screen them. If you need to hire 10 new people each term thats 20 weeks of work!!! I doubt that given the reality of this task that you would find a way to screen out some of them...but maybe I'm wrong about this.(Edited by dugdig: I think I'm over the edge a bit here. If you had 10 positions to fill you would probably not get 50x10=500 applicants. Sorry for the exageration but I think you can still understand my meaning.)

[kenkannif]

If you want a job doing properly you have to make the effort. And you did ask what we would do? Surely checking all of their references, degree validity etc. would take just as long?

Maybe a personal interview first to make sure they're (as a person) suitable for the job, and then some demo lessons etc. with whoever you have left?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think you are a little over the top here, DD. No sane manager wants a SHORTLIST of 50 people. While 50 or more may apply, there'll probably be some obvious cutoffs on the basis of the resumes, recommendations, and other advance paperwork in the application before you've even arrived at lesson plans. You manage to cut it down to 10 interviews one way or the other and then you've got a solid day of interviewing on your hands, from which you hire as many as you need- and if you need to hire more than 10, then yes, you're going to have more than day's work interviewing. In any case, if you're hiring that many then your company/school/thingy probably needs a full time HR guy for farang anyhoo.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Yeah when we get company teaching gigs (sometimes 100 plus staff) our marketing manager has to do a placement test (both written and oral) for all of them. It takes time, but you get out what you put in (generally!).

[PeaceBlondie]

I saw the long list of applicants for the job that I currently hold. Half admitted they were out of the country. Many who were in-country either had never taught EFL, they weren't what we normally call 'native speakers,' or they had some other obvious fault on their application. The short list would have been 10 out of 50. Then you phone the top ten, and four of them say "Oh no, I've got a job, or I'm leaving the country, or I don't want to work in a province anyway." Two of the six can't do an interview this week, and .....I think my mate and I were the only ones interviewed, and we got hired based on word of mouth (local grapevine). I was interviewed but didn't need to do demo because I was a known commodity in the town.

But if you don't have the time or the means to check the references, then the interview and the demo should prove the point. I doubt that I'd ask for a new lesson plan; maybe have them bring one to the interview, and briefly review it.

That wouldn't take long. Besides, I'd ask them to bring their documentation to the interview if they hadn't sent it by email or fax: actual diploma, maybe transcript of courses taken and grades, actual passport with visa, copy of old license or WP. Straightforward.

Not sure if that many bachelor's degrees are phony, anyway. The truth isn't that easy to find out. And if they do the interview and the demo well enough, the bachelor's degree doesn't matter much (unless the government wants to see it for a TL or WP).

[KhunLing]

The "qualifications vs experience" debate rages on everywhere people are employed as teachers.  My question is:

If qualifications are bogus, then if YOU were to open a school in Thailand how would YOU decide out of the dozens of applications who to hire and who to not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, as this is now my school and the goal is to make money...

I'd pick the teachers who most resemble boyzone and David Beckham.

Why? Every single Thai I've spoken to seems to remember / like the "lor maag" ajarn and recommend their girlfriends to that school regardless of teaching ability.

The 45 year old who has a masters in Education but a gut the size of Texas and smells...could be the best teacher on the planet, those Thai's aren't enrolling again in his courses. Sad, but very true.

Hey, you said it's my school...

[Ijustwannateach]

Sadly, Khunling probably has the right idea for a money spinner... you're going to have high turnover and perpetually inexperienced airhead teachers, though!

"Steven"

[KhunLing]

Sadly, Khunling probably has the right idea for a money spinner... you're going to have high turnover and perpetually inexperienced airhead teachers, though!

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think the Thai's will notice though?

[PeaceBlondie]

Sadly, Khunling probably has the right idea for a money spinner... you're going to have high turnover and perpetually inexperienced airhead teachers, though!

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think the Thai's will notice though?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately (being a Texan with a big gut, and I smell after two classes without air/con, and I'm well over 45) - many students in govt. schools and private language schools wouldn't know a well qualified teacher in the first place, and the DOS may not care, anyway.

Steven's right - the director will have high turnover, people who don't show up for work (at least not sober) and disappear one day because their boyfriend wants them to come home, or whatever.

I replaced very young looking females at my first school, and was later replaced by a 21 year old (who's already left). To a degree, the staff mistreats and neglects their farang eachers because they really don't care if the teachers stay. The white faces bring in money from parents who don't know what a good teacher is.

[tedkarma]

Make them do demo lessons, take a class, make some lesson plans, ask them questions etc. in regards to teaching....basically make sure they're capable of doing the job! Probably the best way to do things regardless of how many pieces of paper they hold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While I rarely disagree with Ken - here I might. I agree that demo lessons are a tool, but they shouldn't be the only one (he doesn't suggest that). The situations are often quite artificial and poorly put together. Many teachers (speaking for myself really) feel a bit uncomfortable with students at the first sitting. Once I get to know the students, their abilities and needs, things flow much much better.

I did an interview in BKK one time where - without warning - the interviewers wanted me to conduct a 15 minute demo class. I did, it scuked. I always carry a prepared lesson with me now - but that school actually missed out on a d*amned good teacher.

Where I work now there is a teacher who does poorly in demo lessons - who recently won a teaching excellence award from his school - chosen highest from over 100+ instructors AND actually is an excellent teacher.

It's one tool I wouldn't rely too heavily on - as you'll get an initial impression, but no real sense of follow through, ability to interpret student's needs, self-direction, ability to handle discipline problems (rarely come up in demo lessons), and general reliability.

Just my opinion.

[Khutan]

One thing I found as a good interviewing tool is to add "Behaviour" questions, to demonstrate a persons behaviour under different situations.

You may ask something like, "please describe to me a time when you had to teach a concept to a student, who could not relate to the material" Then you focus the answers towards the behaviours of the applicant, Like how did they feel, how did they do this and that, if they cannot relate their behaviours in the interview, it will quickly show if they have done it before or not.

You can try it on yourself, Please describe to me the last time you looked up a number in the telephone book.... What did you do, where was the book, how were the names arranged etc etc.

[kenkannif]

TK,

Mate you're the teacher, I'm not, so I'd never disagree with you!

Howzabout an extended demo/probation period? Maybe over a month or so? Either way though nothing is 100% reliable in finding a teacher (be it quals, demos, experience etc.) but I suppose a little bit of each can't hurt!

[tedkarma]

TK,

Mate you're the teacher, I'm not, so I'd never disagree with you!

Howzabout an extended demo/probation period? Maybe over a month or so? Either way though nothing is 100% reliable in finding a teacher (be it quals, demos, experience etc.) but I suppose a little bit of each can't hurt!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi KK,

Actually I like extended probation periods, as a lot of people know how to look good for a short period of time. Three or even six months are fine with me. Partly because I think that good teachers get better over time. It takes me about six months to really figure what is going on at a school, what the school wants, what the students need versus want - and what the best mix is to please most of the people most of the time - and still feel that I am making a quality contribution.

Again, only my opinion.

You are right about hiring though. I am glad I don't have admin duties. Hiring is truly a crap shoot no matter what you do. Or as a good friend said as he was entering his fifth marriage, "You take a chance with anybody, so why not take a chance with anybody?" That marriage, btw, didn't last. I wouldn't recommend such a cavalier attitude towards hiring either, but in my earlier life I probably hired hundreds and hundreds of people (in social services not in teaching), but still can't say I have a magic potion of successful selection. Might be rich man if I did.

Keep watching "The Apprentice" - maybe Trump will tell us how!

[nokmdk]

When the School applys for your TL, they take your Degree to get it correct? Would they not know right there that the degree is valid or not? Would this not in return tell them if you are qualified in the sense you have the degree baring any experience of course. Just a thought perhaps i'm wrong as always.

[Ijustwannateach]

^^Most "real" contracts in Thailand include the probationary period, which I think by law is a maximum of 4 or 6 months (can't remember which). If they specify a longer period in the contract I *believe* they're breaking labour law, technically.

^Degree certificates can be faked or from bogus schools. Most administrative offices in Thailand are not equipped to handle degree verifications, especially since it takes a bit of time and hiring is always done at the last moment. If they're really fussy, they might find out your degree is a real one 4-6 months after you start working.

"Steven"