Can Alcoholics Ever Drink Safely Again?

[Groongthep]

....... the fear is actually finding a person that was an 'alcoholic' and returned to drinking. A number of replies appear to associate with AA, but when someone stops drinking and then returns to the drink, the AA person does not usually follow that person anymore.

I'm not sure I follow what you are talking about here Chris. Could you elaborate.

The alcoholism movement, aka alcoholism treatment movement, is the early to mid 20th century concept of alcohol addiction that spawned 12-step programs, based on the powerlessness of the individual, etc. It's a view that alcohol addiction is a progressive disease, and that "proceeding inexorably from stage to stage in fixed sequence ending inevitably in abstinence or death--has become part of the enduring mythology of alcoholism.” p. 133 Vaillant, G. (1983). The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press.

The assumptions are many, beginning with the traditional “unitary disease” model that says “alcoholics are different from non-alcoholics" (more at bottom).

Great references wayfarer. What I get from your post is that the "alcoholism movement" refers to the school of thought that recovery requires one to adhere to at least some of the basic tenants of AA. When in treatment I remember a few long conversations with some counselors about the "recovery industry" and how it is bias toward the AA model of recovery. In the US, the Court system seems to be bias in this fashion too in that they often require AA attendance as part of alcohol related crime sentencing. I'm not sure if I have an opinion on this one way or another. Even though I am not a practitioner of AA I find it hard to criticize a program that has helped so many people. As I said before I believe the ultimate responsibility for beating a drug or alcohol problem lies with the individual, but there are different tools one might use to accomplish that end, AA being the most common. You can take it, leave it or change it to fit what you think will help you best. How you get there is not as important as just getting there.

[garro]

Alcohol came very close to destroying my life so why would I ever consider going near it again? Why would anyone who found that alcohol is making their lives miserable consider going back to that - it would be irresponsible and crazy. Not just for them but for those around them. I feel that anyone who encourages/condones addicts to return to their addictions is the lowest of the low. If your drinking has caused problems for yourself or others you have lost the privilege to drink again - in my opinion. Why take the risk?

In my early twenties I returned to alcohol after two years sober. This despite the fact that my previous battle with addiction led to me begging on the streets of London and half-crazy. I decided to listen to those who promote the idea of controlled drinking. I even researched the subject - only to later find out that almost all of the research had been fabricated by quack treatment centers and Sobell & Sobell et al. Scumbags. Of course the ultimate choice to drink again came from me, but the 'experts' certainly didn't help.

Anyway, it took me another miserable ten years to stop again. During this time I managed to further damage my liver and make those around me very unhappy.

So if you gave up alcohol to lose weight or because you once did something moderately stupid while drunk then perhaps you can drink again. If your life was previously made miserable by alcohol over a period of time then I doubt you can drink safely. Why would you even want to? The fact that somebody like this would even consider drinking again shows that they are not quite right in the head.

I do not follow the AA program, but I do respect them - at least I respect them a hel_l of a lot more than any 'treatment' option which would endorse controlled drinking.

[Groongthep]

Alcohol came very close to destroying my life so why would I ever consider going near it again? Why would anyone who found that alcohol is making their lives miserable consider going back to that - it would be irresponsible and crazy. Not just for them but for those around them. I feel that anyone who encourages/condones addicts to return to their addictions is the lowest of the low. If your drinking has caused problems for yourself or others you have lost the privilege to drink again - in my opinion. Why take the risk?

In my early twenties I returned to alcohol after two years sober. This despite the fact that my previous battle with addiction led to me begging on the streets of London and half-crazy. I decided to listen to those who promote the idea of controlled drinking. I even researched the subject - only to later find out that almost all of the research had been fabricated by quack treatment centers and Sobell & Sobell et al. Scumbags. Of course the ultimate choice to drink again came from me, but the 'experts' certainly didn't help.

Anyway, it took me another miserable ten years to stop again. During this time I managed to further damage my liver and make those around me very unhappy.

So if you gave up alcohol to lose weight or because you once did something moderately stupid while drunk then perhaps you can drink again. If your life was previously made miserable by alcohol over a period of time then I doubt you can drink safely. Why would you even want to? The fact that somebody like this would even consider drinking again shows that they are not quite right in the head.

I do not follow the AA program, but I do respect them - at least I respect them a hel_l of a lot more than any 'treatment' option which would endorse controlled drinking.

Great post. Closely resembles my own experience.

[wayfarer108]

....... the fear is actually finding a person that was an 'alcoholic' and returned to drinking. A number of replies appear to associate with AA, but when someone stops drinking and then returns to the drink, the AA person does not usually follow that person anymore.

I'm not sure I follow what you are talking about here Chris. Could you elaborate.

The alcoholism movement, aka alcoholism treatment movement, is the early to mid 20th century concept of alcohol addiction that spawned 12-step programs, based on the powerlessness of the individual, etc. It's a view that alcohol addiction is a progressive disease, and that "proceeding inexorably from stage to stage in fixed sequence ending inevitably in abstinence or death--has become part of the enduring mythology of alcoholism.” p. 133 Vaillant, G. (1983). The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press.

The assumptions are many, beginning with the traditional “unitary disease” model that says “alcoholics are different from non-alcoholics" (more at bottom).

Great references wayfarer. What I get from your post is that the "alcoholism movement" refers to the school of thought that recovery requires one to adhere to at least some of the basic tenants of AA. When in treatment I remember a few long conversations with some counselors about the "recovery industry" and how it is bias toward the AA model of recovery. In the US, the Court system seems to be bias in this fashion too in that they often require AA attendance as part of alcohol related crime sentencing. I'm not sure if I have an opinion on this one way or another. Even though I am not a practitioner of AA I find it hard to criticize a program that has helped so many people. As I said before I believe the ultimate responsibility for beating a drug or alcohol problem lies with the individual, but there are different tools one might use to accomplish that end, AA being the most common. You can take it, leave it or change it to fit what you think will help you best. How you get there is not as important as just getting there.

Yes, that seems to be the general agreement in modern addiction research. The alcoholism movement, which survived into the early 80s, when it began to be laid aside by modern science (though the mythology is still strong among laypeople) clung to an antiquated notion of the 'alcoholic' as somehow unique among addicts.

Just as there are many profiles for addicts, there are many solutions/therapies. And yes of course it all comes down to individuals, who bear ultimate responsibility for their actions.

I failed several times before I completed therapy, and I've known several other people who have failed more than once, after periods of abstinence, and yet who were eventually able to resume moderate alcohol consumption. And I've known many who couldn't. I would never have taken another drink again if I hadn't been 100% confident I could do it without falling back into addiction.

Until you've dealt with the root causes of your addiction, you shouldn't tempt fate. For an addict who has endured personal tragedy falling off the wagon, a strong reluctance to ever attempt 'normal' or controlled drinking again is perfectly logical and strongly advisable.

As Garro said, why would he or she want to? Until you know the answer to that question, you're better off not drinking.

[sgunn65]

Garro I don't know of any philosophy that encourages controlled drinking. Some say that a return to controlled drinking after a long period of abstinence is possible for some. This is totally different.

As most posters have said everyone is different and, after 15 years in the business, I have seen thousands of people come through the programmes I have worked in. Each has had their own story and each one was an individual. But they all shared some common themes too.

To Groonthep I would say that your statement or even worse by people looking to make money off those who are suffering. needs to be thought through as the majority of private rehabs are 12 step facilities. Yes there is an industry that makes money from treating addictions and I am one of those. I have spent the majority of my career working long hours in some pretty rough areas for charities but being waged. I now work for myself doing the same thing here in Thailand. I have to say I do resent it when people seem to think it somehow wrong to be paid for doing my job which I spent 5 years qualifying in. I like to think that what I do helps people, but I can't help everyone. I happen to get a lot of satisfaction from my work which is not a bad thing. We all sell something whether we are bargirls, lawyers or teachers so maybe you should stick to the point and not disrespect those who are trying to help whether you believe their philosophy or not.

By the way I have now been 17 years clean. I am not recovering, I recovered along time ago. If I went back to using drugs I may become addicted again but so might anyone. The difference is I know what it is like to lose everything so why would I want to? This is a choice.

[Groongthep]

Yes, that seems to be the general agreement in modern addiction research. The alcoholism movement, which survived into the early 80s, when it began to be laid aside by modern science (though the mythology is still strong among laypeople) clung to an antiquated notion of the 'alcoholic' as somehow unique among addicts.

Just as there are many profiles for addicts, there are many solutions/therapies. And yes of course it all comes down to individuals, who bear ultimate responsibility for their actions.

I failed several times before I completed therapy, and I've known several other people who have failed more than once, after periods of abstinence, and yet who were eventually able to resume moderate alcohol consumption. And I've known many who couldn't. I would never have taken another drink again if I hadn't been 100% confident I could do it without falling back into addiction.

Until you've dealt with the root causes of your addiction, you shouldn't tempt fate. For an addict who has endured personal tragedy falling off the wagon, a strong reluctance to ever attempt 'normal' or controlled drinking again is perfectly logical and strongly advisable.

As Garro said, why would he or she want to? Until you know the answer to that question, you're better off not drinking.

Makes sense to me. But having been sober for so long now and thus having enjoyed all the benefits of sobriety like good health and stable relationships, I would have no desire whatsoever to try moderate drinking even if I felt 100% certain that I could do it without relapsing into uncontrolled addiction. The thought of drinking even in small quantities brings me no pleasure and the only things it reminds me of is the misery I went through while I was addicted to it, the heartache I caused those who cared about me while I was addicted to it and the boorish behavior and poor judgment of those who are still addicted to it. I've conditioned myself like Pavlov's dog to be ambivalent to alcohol now. I would have to train myself to enjoy it again and I think anyone reading this can see that would be a ridiculously pointless and irrational thing for me to do. I have no wish to see the sale of alcohol overly controlled as the anti-alcohol zealots (like some in the Thai government) would do, but on the other hand, I wouldn't care if they did either as it no longer concerns me. It doesn't bother me to go places with friends who are drinking. Their drinking around me arouses no desire for me to have a drink myself as some mistakenly believe. I can order a soft drink, a water or a fruit juice and be just fine. I will part company with them however if their talk and behavior become stupid due to drink which unfortunately is fairly often. I'm in agreement with garro that abstinence is the only path for most of us, and as I have said earlier, I am completely at peace with that. I don't believe that returning to "normal" drinking, even if I could would make me any more "cured" or "normal" than I already am but it certainly would make me less sober.

To switch subjects a bit, I found it interesting that you said "Until you've dealt with the root causes of your addiction, you shouldn't tempt fate." You seem to be a person like myself who has reservations about standard AA doctrine, but that statement could have come right out of an AA meeting if not from the "Big Book" itself. The standard AA follow-up would be that you deal with the root causes by following the 12 steps. I'm not criticizing, just making an observation. It seems to me that one of the shortcomings of medical science is the failure to squarely determine what the "root causes" of addiction really are. There seem to be many factors involved. I myself do not adhere to the AA doctrine but I do find that at least one of their principles has validity and that is that in order for any method of treatment to work one must first admit the he or she has a problem. Other than that it is a lot of conjecture. It does work for many people though, and for that reason I won't disparage it.

[Groongthep]

To Groonthep I would say that your statement or even worse by people looking to make money off those who are suffering. needs to be thought through as the majority of private rehabs are 12 step facilities. Yes there is an industry that makes money from treating addictions and I am one of those. I have spent the majority of my career working long hours in some pretty rough areas for charities but being waged. I now work for myself doing the same thing here in Thailand. I have to say I do resent it when people seem to think it somehow wrong to be paid for doing my job which I spent 5 years qualifying in. I like to think that what I do helps people, but I can't help everyone. I happen to get a lot of satisfaction from my work which is not a bad thing. We all sell something whether we are bargirls, lawyers or teachers so maybe you should stick to the point and not disrespect those who are trying to help whether you believe their philosophy or not.

I was not disrespecting you or your career, in fact I owe my life to people like you who helped me get sober. If you read my post again you will see that I was not talking about those in the recovery business but those that write "conspiracy theory" books disparaging different programs. Whether or not one adheres to a specific program doesn't mean it wasn't developed out of good intentions.

[garro]

Garro I don't know of any philosophy that encourages controlled drinking. Some say that a return to controlled drinking after a long period of abstinence is possible for some. This is totally different.

Well I can tell you that I met plenty of people during my stints in rehab banging the drum for controlled drinking. These treatments centers often actively promoted this idea especially among us younger crowd. I met many counselers who told me that given a while off the booze I could learn to drink sensibly again. They were not concerned about the fact that I never drank sensibly. I suppose it was some type of reaction against AA. There is also Moderation Management which although on the surface it tries to distance itself from such behavior does attract people from sobriety back on the merry-go-round.

I have no idea what type of treatment you offer and if you are providing a service well I suppose it is reasonable that you be paid for it, but as addiction does seem to attract many quacks I will reserve my right to be suspicious. In my experience the finest treatment options for treating addiction have always been free - one drunk/addict helping another without any financial motive. That is just my opinion though and I'm sure that there are plenty of people willing to pay for your services.

[Chris Lawrence]

I worked at the coal face for about 15 years, predominantly around 12 step organisations; and for a short time in CBT and harm minimization. Drove the needle exchange van, worked with clients on the street in the beginning; at this point never saw a person return to the drink.

Over the years I have known many people who have gone "back out there", many have not done very well. However some I am aware of have gone on to drink again, Now some of these people were very hard core people, I not only knew their story I knew the crowd they associated with. They are still holding down the job, relationship, haven't hocked the car or house or kids they are buying. But these are people that had considerable time in abstinence based programs.

Many people in the 12 step fellowship do not appear to keep in touch with these people on the premises that yes they are drinking and therefore have nothing to offer and/or we will see them when they get back.

What I have to admit is yes I am aware of people that have returned to drinking, but only after spending a lot of time and effort in a recovery program.

I am not promoting that everyone after a long period in a recovery program can go "back out there". Its a curly one, and stating the obvious may see me attacked. Mine are observations.

Again I know of a lot of people who have multiple years up and are quite happy in not drinking.

I remember asking a gentlemen working in CBT the same question; the answer was yes after a considerable period of time and a lot of hard work. That was his experience. However due to the nature of work I did I could never say this to a client, because if I did I probably would never see them again because that would have been like to give them permission to head back out the door. So my standard response was 'no', but you have got me for the next few months.

[spacefruit]

No

[rozerjack]

you should have strong control over your mind.

then and then only you can control your alcohol takings.

limited quantity of alcohol in winter is healthier.

[Groongthep]

limited quantity of alcohol in winter is healthier.

Healthier than what? Unlimited quantity? Brilliant observation.

[StreetCowboy]

limited quantity of alcohol in winter is healthier.

Healthier than what? Unlimited quantity? Brilliant observation.

I think he means small quantity is healthier than zero alcohol in winter (presumably in climates where winters are cold) but only if you can control your drinking so that the quantity is limited to a small amount.

So not very helpful to me, then...

[dotcom]

Most alcoholics cannot control their drinking, and therefore they should abstain completely.

That would be my take on it as well. I am sober about 12 years.

No reason to tempt fate.

[Tolley]

I have read a bit about recovery from addictions and there are many who say that you need some sort of spiritual awakening to successfully beat an addiction be it drink, drugs etc

Does that mirror what people here have experienced?

[Neeranam]

I have read a bit about recovery from addictions and there are many who say that you need some sort of spiritual awakening to successfully beat an addiction be it drink, drugs etc

Does that mirror what people here have experienced?

Absolutely and a complete psychic change.

[garro]

I have read a bit about recovery from addictions and there are many who say that you need some sort of spiritual awakening to successfully beat an addiction be it drink, drugs etc

Does that mirror what people here have experienced?

I can not speak for all addicts and drunks, and I am not a member of any fellowship, but the spiritual awakening was definitely part of my recovery from addiction. I had been a drunk for years and something significant had to happen for me to change. The change did not happen slowly, and I did not wake up one morning no longer wanting to drink. The change was intense and immediate. I was utterly defeated and the options were change or die. I had a spiritual awakening. I think that for many addicts the reason for drinking is a feeling of lack of purpose and meaning in their lives, for me I could only get this purpose and meaning through spirituality. I am not talking hear about gods or holy books, but a feeling of something higher purpose in the universe that wanted me to change- if that makes sense.

[idrankwhat]

No one can answer that, some people get away with it and others relapse. I'm not sure if I was ever an alcoholic but for sure I was border line and it does run in my family. When I was 20 something I was at the bar every day and at a minimum got a good buzz going, I would go home and put down another 6 pack before bed. One day I considered I might have a problem so I stopped drinking and boy I had a headache for a week. I went to an AA meeting but it didn't work for me, I mean the higher power (I'm an atheist) and I heard some people saying 'I have been sober for 25 years and I want to go have a drink' I thought geez if your going to be miserable your entire life go have a <deleted> drink. Anyway I had a beer about 2 years latter no problem, although I did want more I didn't drink more and I did eventually start to drink socially but never at home and never at a bar unless I was with friends just having a few. Now I'm forty something and have a drink a week on average generally a martini on a Friday night with my wife to wind down from the week but if I feel the least bit of a buzz coming on I stop drinking. As I said no one can really answer the question it is different for everyone in my case it worked out ok but I have heard of cases similar to mine that did not turn out so well. So, take it for what it is worth and be careful by all means because you are going to do what you want to do no matter what anyone tells you. Just the fact you are asking the question means you are considering drinking so... think about that as well.

[garro]

No one can answer that, some people get away with it and others relapse. I'm not sure if I was ever an alcoholic but for sure I was border line and it does run in my family. When I was 20 something I was at the bar every day and at a minimum got a good buzz going, I would go home and put down another 6 pack before bed. One day I considered I might have a problem so I stopped drinking and boy I had a headache for a week. I went to an AA meeting but it didn't work for me, I mean the higher power (I'm an atheist) and I heard some people saying 'I have been sober for 25 years and I want to go have a drink' I thought geez if your going to be miserable your entire life go have a <deleted> drink. Anyway I had a beer about 2 years latter no problem, although I did want more I didn't drink more and I did eventually start to drink socially but never at home and never at a bar unless I was with friends just having a few. Now I'm forty something and have a drink a week on average generally a martini on a Friday night with my wife to wind down from the week but if I feel the least bit of a buzz coming on I stop drinking. As I said no one can really answer the question it is different for everyone in my case it worked out ok but I have heard of cases similar to mine that did not turn out so well. So, take it for what it is worth and be careful by all means because you are going to do what you want to do no matter what anyone tells you. Just the fact you are asking the question means you are considering drinking so... think about that as well.

If alcohol isn't causing you, or those around you, problems and it makes you happy well that's fair enough. I couldn't do or to to be more truthful I wouldn't even want to do it. I almost lost everything due to alcohol and went through some terrible pain, but I don't regret a single day. I do regret the hurt I caused, but all those years of misery made me grow and has led to me being a far happier person than I was before picking up alcohol. Drink has nothing to offer me anymore; I like myself so no longer need to hide from 'me' behind a drunken fog. Drink for me would be a step backward.

I am not a member of AA but I do know quite a few members, and I completely disagree with the idea that long-timers are still struggling not to drink. The old-timers I met often had a degree of serenity and peace which is beyond what I witness in the population at large.

In my early twenties I quit drinking for two years, but picked up again. Prior to this I had ended up in the gutter, but after my two years clean I managed to become a functioning alcoholic. My experience around treatment had taught me how to say the right things to the recovery experts and it had also shown me how to hide my addiction better. I continued to drink for another eleven years and as far as many were concerned I was doing OK. I even fooled some addiction experts that I had safely returned to alcohol; most of these people were only too pleased to be given evidence for their pet theories. As a functioning alcoholic I almost destroyed my liver and the mental torture was far worse than anything I had previously experienced in the gutter; it was a constant companion for over a decade.

I would urge anybody who is thinking of drinking or using again to just not do it. In my view anybody who suggests otherwise is not your friend. Do not be fooled by any research that suggests that drunks can return safely to drink. Drunks are notorious liars and so not the best candidates for this type of research. Follow-up studies on some of the most famous research backing controlled drinking has shown a ridiculously high amount of the subjects who are quoted as a success in these studies but later dying from alcoholic liver disease or other alcohol related problems. For example check out the criticisms of the research conducted by Sobell & Sobell.

[spirit47]

I test it more than 1000 times, I can't control. Now I'am dry for more than 10 years...

[rexall]

Can an alcoholic ever drink normally again? I'd be interested to hear if there are any here who have.

Sat 20 Jun 09, 4:36 pm

Hi Neeranam, All,

I have been clean and sober for nearly 25 years, this month. I have never had a slip or a relapse, thankfully. I am vigilant toward my sobriety, but not paranoid or fearful. What follows is purely speculation, but based largely on my experience a long time ago of returning to cigarette smoking after a year of abstinence.

I suspect that if I "slipped" and had a beer, nothing much would happen. I would probably enjoy it and conclude that it was not a big deal. So why not repeat the pleasure? After several of those experiences I might decide that "something" had magically transformed during the previous 25 years regarding my tendency to drink alcoholically, my some mysterious process, I had gained the ability to drink "normally." This would be a "honeymoon" period, which might go on for days or weeks or even months where I would have some fun and drink with virtual impunity. . . until some convergence of temptation, frustration, lapse of discipline, combined with opportunity where I would drink too much and get drunk, probably before I even realized what I was doing. If that did not get my attention and cause me to decide to return to abstinence, it would likely happen again . . . and probably again, and again, and again. Eventually, I would return to an active addiction, maybe even do some cocaine or meth . . . and I doubt that I would survive very much of that, literally.

The "interesting" thing about this type of "thought experiment" is that, please gawd, I will never find out if it is truly predictive or not because I have absolutely not intention of putting it to the test.

The whole business of drinking moderately simply does not compute for me.

Aloha,

Rex

[denissr]

I am an Alcohlic and have been sober some years. I have experience of my own and being around thousands of other Alcoholics. I don't think I can drink again and not have the same trouble I used to have when I drank. I don't need or want to drink, it won't make anything any better and probably make things a whole lot worst. I can do anything I want to do in this world and not drink. Most the time no one else even notices I'm not drinking, they are too busy with their own lives. If you are or think you are an Alcoholic, it is easy enough to test the theory, go drink. I am happy just not drinking. I hope everyone doesn't stop drinking, we need the bars to pick up the ladies, each to their own.

[chefshane]

when the religious freaks brainwash you into thinking you are so helpless and weak that you cannot influence your own actions and life - so turn yourself over to their foolish, intolerant imaginary God - then it is not in their best interest for you to ever start thinking or acting of your own accord.

Forget logic, forget balance, forget responsibility.

Just humiliate and berate yourself daily, admit that you are a buffoon to as many people as you can meet, then get a glazed stare, and start off in monotone about how Jesus saved you.

AA, 12 steps, and religious opportunists make me sick to the gut.

Almost as evil as missionaries and their ilk.

If you have a problem - find the most effective solution. Effective for YOU.

You CAN and DO control your own destiny. You are responsible for your own actions.

When you realise this and act on it, you are more powerful and empowered than any of these so called Gods that cause so much misery, deceit, aggression and intolerance.

[tc101]

Can an alcoholic ever drink normally again? I'd be interested to hear if there are any here who have.

I was just talking about this with a friend. I had my last drink 21 years ago. If I hadn't quit I would probably be dead or insane by now. I have no idea if I could drink safely again. Maybe yes, maybe no. I am a different person than I was 21 years ago. Maybe something has changed. Maybe I could just have a few beers and quit.

However, why would I want to make the experiment? Why would I want to take the risk? Maybe I would not have a problem, maybe I would drink myself to death. It would be like playing Russian Roulette.

[tc101]

when the religious freaks brainwash you into thinking you are so helpless and weak that you cannot influence your own actions and life - so turn yourself over to their foolish, intolerant imaginary God - then it is not in their best interest for you to ever start thinking or acting of your own accord.

Forget logic, forget balance, forget responsibility.

Just humiliate and berate yourself daily, admit that you are a buffoon to as many people as you can meet, then get a glazed stare, and start off in monotone about how Jesus saved you.

AA, 12 steps, and religious opportunists make me sick to the gut.

Almost as evil as missionaries and their ilk.

I am either an agnostic or an atheist, depending on how you define the words. I am certainly not a believer. AA worked for me. There are all kinds of AA groups. If you find one full of religious fanatics who make you uncomfortable, just look for another group.

[unforgiven]

Can an alcoholic ever drink normally again? I'd be interested to hear if there are any here who have.

I think that just about all the clinical evidence (of which there is a huge amount) shows that the answer to this question is NO. While there may be evidence of some extremely rare cases where chronic alcoholics have returned to moderate social drinking they are surely a miniscule minority. I have not taken a drink in over 11 years after having been habitually drunk during the 25 years before that. I wouldn't dream of risking going back to those dark days by taking a chance at trying to return to "social drinking". The first few years of abstinence are hard but you do eventually get to the point where the "Oh my God I'll never have fun again" delusion fades away and you learn to live a happy life without any alcohol. I suspect that anyone who tells you that they have gone back to moderate (one or two drinks or beers a day) drinking after having suffered from chronic alcoholism is either not being truly honest with you or himself or was never really an alcoholic in the first place. if you have an alcohol problem, quitting doesn't guarantee you a happy life but it will guarantee you a longer one with an immensely better chance at contentment.

I agree 100%,especially with the statement about not having fun without alchol. I still drink 5 or 6 beers at night ,but I also quit for weeks at a time every month or 2 and rarely get drunk ,say 5 time a year or so. I'd like to quit because when I'm not drinking I'm in a great mood ,very positive and rise at 6 or 7 in the morn and the day is great.

[ThaiPauly]

when the religious freaks brainwash you into thinking you are so helpless and weak that you cannot influence your own actions and life - so turn yourself over to their foolish, intolerant imaginary God - then it is not in their best interest for you to ever start thinking or acting of your own accord.

Forget logic, forget balance, forget responsibility.

Just humiliate and berate yourself daily, admit that you are a buffoon to as many people as you can meet, then get a glazed stare, and start off in monotone about how Jesus saved you.

AA, 12 steps, and religious opportunists make me sick to the gut.

Almost as evil as missionaries and their ilk.

This poster is playing with people's lives here.

Don't pay any attention to this Rubbish.

AA has helped many many people get and stay sober, there is NO REQUIREMENT TO BELEIVE IN GOD.

It does not work for everyone, but then nothing does.

When you are at "Rock Bottom" with your drinking AA can be a very effetive solution...you find out that you are not alone in your quest for sobriety.

There is absolutley NOTHING EVIL about the AA 12 step recovery programme, you don't even HAVE to follow the programme, many people have gotten sober just by attending AA meetings, and listening and talking to people with the same problems they have

[rexall]

Don't pay any attention to this Rubbish.

AA has helped many many people get and stay sober, there is NO REQUIREMENT TO BELEIVE IN GOD.

It does not work for everyone, but then nothing does.

When you are at "Rock Bottom" with your drinking AA can be a very effetive solution...you find out that you are not alone in your quest for sobriety.

There is absolutley NOTHING EVIL about the AA 12 step recovery programme, you don't even HAVE to follow the programme, many people have gotten sober just by attending AA meetings, and listening and talking to people with the same problems they have

Mon 22 Jun 09, 7:45 am

AA is hardly above criticism, and I think open and honest debate is appropriate. Debate, but not "bashing!" That doesn't help anyone. Let me share briefly how I got over my "AA bashing", although my bashing was never that vociferous int he first place. I attended regular AA meetings for the first couple of years of my sobriety and benefited from that. As a non-religious person (atheist, agnostic, secular, "free thinker", whatever) who lived in San Francisco for many years, I am often very surprised by the surveys in the U.S. consistently showing that 80%-90% (depending upon the survey) of people say the believe in God. That begs further analysis, but what it says to me is that if 80% of people believe in God, then possibly an equivalent number of drunks and addicts also believe in God, which means that 12 Step Theology is quite possibly appropriate and compatible for 80%-90% of those who attend AA. It is only a small minority who find the religious approach abrasive.

Fortunately, the secular sobriety movement has been growing over the past 25 years. This growth is not nearly as repaid or as wide-spread as we would hope for, but there does exist a number of F2F (Face-to-face) and online secular alternatives to 12 Step Programs. SOS (Secular Organizations For Sobriety), Life Ring Recovery, SMART Recovery, Woman For Sobriety, and others. Happily, in most cases, the shared and wise strategy of this movement has been to present itself as a "friendly alternative" to AA, and not to be an instrument for incessant bashing. The "market share" is minuscule compared to AA, of course, but many thousands have gotten clean and sober through contact with these organizations without "higher powers", helplessness, dependency, superstition and the other issues that secular people find incompatible with their secular orientation.

Aloha,

Rex

[philo]

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I hope everyone doesn't stop drinking, we need the bars to pick up the ladies, each to their own.

This must be one of the most unintelligent posts I have ever read.

Some of us will lose our life, wife and children due to drinking.

And you talk about not closing the bars because you like to f..k a farmers daughter for a few hundred Baht.

It is not up to me to say 'Shame on you' - but I really feel sorry for you.