Designer Clothes

[PvtDick]

Thanks, Harry, for confirming my initial suspicion that you don't have the slightest idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

[Khutan]

Pvt Dick;

I will answer you bit by bit...

So, mattnich, as someone in the apparel business, how would you rate the quality of the fake famous-brand clothing you see for sale on the streets of Thailand? I mean, in comparison to the genuine article.

That is a little bit like how long is a piece of string, but generally the "Domestic Grade" is what you have seen that is sold in the major markets.

There is a bit of background to this, so bear with me.....

In my opinion they fail a number of quality goals. To elaborate, when you manufacture you set a number of quality goals that your QC enforces, if all the goals are not met, then the factory has the choice to fix or fail the garment. You set goals like shape of the cut, fabric, wash, stitching, button holes etc etc. The order of 10,000 for export, we had 28 quality goals.

Now with this in mind, for export, not domestic, most factories do outsourcing, they are not big enough to have their own end-to-end process, so some is outsourced, may it be accessories, printing, washing, cutting etc etc. So not many factories make 100% of the garment.

Moving on, to try to get to the point, You can go to most factories and they will have a pattern and size spec for most popular jeans. If they don't know you, or your company, etc etc, they may not say they do, but most factories can make you 501 copy a diesel copy or an Amarni copy. The quality then depends on the price.

Now I know Factory XXXX makes fake 501's better than the real article, before you scoff at saying better, some of the quality goals are better than the ooriginal being sold, like the zips being in straight, the button-holes cleaned properly. But to make those you have to order a minimum of 2500 and there is alot of secrecy.

I also know a factory that makes very poor quality copies of the 501. Now I can get in my pick-up and buy 500 pairs of the things for about 120 - 150 Baht a pair, I don't know what I would do with them, but that is a sell price ex-factory.

These lower cost jeans that you see on Sukhumvit Bobbet, Bayoke and Pratunam go out of the factory at that price. You cannot make a quality garment at that price, no matter what anyone says.

Is the snob factor unduly influencing me when I think I can discern a significant difference in quality between a genuine Lacoste polo shirt and a 150 baht Bangkok knock-off? How about those awful fake polyester footbal jerseys that many farangs seem to love? Or the "Armani" jeans?

Normally no, you have identified it yourself, firstly the fabric, I can talk about fabric quality all day, but I have on retainer a fabric grader who does that for me and can tell me within about 15 minutes how much per metre on a lot the fabric cost, the weave etc etc. At the end of the day its the fabric that goes on your skin. Genuine articles are made, normally with a better quality fabric.

The last lot I had made we spent nearly 2 months getting the fabric and wash correct. Why, we wanted a particular style and feel to the garment. So when it was against your skin, you knew it was our garment and not a copy. To do things like that to the fabric costs money. The washing alone on our jeans cost 120 baht per item, that is the sell price of the knock off's.

So at the end of the day, no, you have a right to enjoy the genuine article, and the research into the product, the development, the wash, cut, stitch and QC all show.

Mind you There are still the odd genuine articles floating around, either as factory rejects or have been stolen from a shipment, if you have a QC grader handy, you can pick them easy..... Hope that helps.

[PvtDick]

It does indeed, Matt. Thank you. Informative and well-informed posts like yours are a lot rarer than they should be.

[nogutsnoapplepie]

So which one is fake?

[PvtDick]

So which one is fake?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

None of them.

[HarryHacker]

Thanks, Harry, for confirming my initial suspicion that you don't have the slightest idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you come to that conclusion?

[PvtDick]

Thanks, Harry, for confirming my initial suspicion that you don't have the slightest idea whatsoever what you're talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you come to that conclusion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This statement alone proves you're talking out your a$$:

"People and American Law firms who PRETEND to be working with the brands but in fact are working hand in hand with the police to make money out of manufacturers, retailers and I dare say the odd farang trying to export some of this stuff, using bully boy tactics.

Very few of these cases end up in the court at Phayathai as a CASH settlement has been accepted between the parties concerned, none of the money goes back to the brand owner."

[MRDave]

just been looking to buy a lacoste polo shirt i saw, it was £80 in newcastle, well theres no way im paying that! so I checked lacoste america they had it on sale for £35 thats more like it, so I put my details there and they informed me when it was in stock, so happy days I think and start to fill in the online order form and hey presto, you can only order if your in the usa, bugger! this is price fixing if I ever saw it!

so no points in guessing what I will be buying next time Im in Pattaya, got a nice striped red Lacoste polo shirt there last october for 250 baht, it isnt as good as the £80 one but for a fiver who cares. been back 8 months now and the materials about 80% now when little bits of material sticking up on it, its no good for best now but ok for knocking about the doors, if you no what I mean,

Im sure stuff will go out of the back door, I used to work for a textile company making up orders in the uk and most of the despatch section got the sack, they were mailing the bedding to there familys and friends, and if it happens in the uk then its sure to happen in china and Thailand, many years ago when the big names started to get there stuff made in china ect we were all told things would be cheaper, well some stuff from marks and sparks own label lines, is, but the likes of nike and lacoste, same price to make more money for the shareholders and stuff the poor bloke who has to buy it for his kids, so when they moan about fakes,

I for one wont feel sorry for these price fixers.

lol I didnt notice this post was so old.

Edited August 11, 2009 by MRDave

[sunholidaysun1]

I thought ALL clothes were designed by a designer . If not, what ?

[MarkyM3]

Agree the cost of stuff like Lacoste is a joke, will only buy it on sale in the UK. However, must say the fakes I bought in Thailand before were generally not too great. Crocodile not straight or in the wrong place, inferior fit/material etc. But the price difference is huge so can be worth a punt. Personally, I haven't bought any gear on my last couple of visits, maybe will check out next time to see if things improved. If possible, it's worth buying stuff that isn't wrapped in cellophane so you can check it over and if possible, try on (but not too likely in Patpong night market ).

Edited August 11, 2009 by MarkyM3

[cindytoh]

would cost you round 2k - 3k for a/x and 3k-5k from lacoste for shirts alone. depends on the design but that's the average

[Maizefarmer]

Think I’ll wade in here - I know the c/f market and how it works better than most.

Firstly – for the benefit of the OP, nearly all genuine brand name articles such as clothing like Nike, Puma, Levi ect ect ect ….. are more expensive in Thailand than in Western countries. There is little to no cost advantage purchasing them here.

This is in part due to the pricing policy of the brand name owner – who knows that the products made for the Western market are in any event only going to appeal to that portion of the Thai market with disposable income.

And it’s part due to the BOI rules and regs surrounding the selling in Thailand of branded products earmarked for the export market – selling them in Thailand, despite the fact that they are manufactured here, does not exempt them from duties that would apply if they were imported to sell in Thailand. It’s a BOI rule/regulation, and it’s deliberately put there.

Okay – that deals with the OP’s original question: let’s deal with the counterfeiting (C/F) and brand names – and some of the comments so far on this thread.

An established brand name is a product from a manufacturer who understands consumer psychology, not necessarily a manufacturer who makes a good quality product. The idea that because the brand name is famous and well established should not imply that it is necessarily a better product. After all, how do you measure the quality of jeans?

Is it in thread count per inch, weight per bolt yard, colour, pattern & cut, how long they last, how they hang ect ect etc ……… ?

Sorry, I don’t know – but I can tell you that one thing is certain: Levi got the product right for the market it was aimed at – which originally, was ironically not a “designer” market, but a working man/labourers market (hence the use of rivets – Clue 1 to C/F 501's: look closely at genuine 501 rivets versus – C/F rivets – that’s usually one give away). The result: the product Levi made appealed well to the market and the brand name owner has since built on that very well to establish the brand name.

There are a whole bunch of characteristics about the 501 that the punter in the street has no knowledge about when it comes to recognising genuine from C/F – and it can take an expert to recognise a C/F from a genuine. Believe me, folk who say they can tell a genuine pair of 501’s from a C/F pair, may well be able to when dealing with poor quality 501’s, but unless you have been trained by 501 to recognise certain of characteristics, you may not be able to recognise a well made pair of C/F’s – and Levi do not advertise or share with law enforcement all of the unique characteristics - not least of which is, if the jeans say “Made in Thailand” they are not genuine – because Levi’s 501 and the cloth used in Levi’s 501 comes from 1 of only 2 or 3 factories world wide – and Thailand ain’t any of them.

Clue 2: look very closely at the registered “Two Horse” leather patch – firstly, thats on genuine leather, but also at the fine embossed graphics detail – C/F producers more often than not make mistakes here.

Clue 3: look carefully at the printed markings inside the cloth of the 501 jeans: they are unique and provide quite a bit of information, which C/F producers often don’t understand the significance of, or bank on the ignorance purchaser not understanding the significance of - and believ me, 99% of 501 purchasers do not understand the siginficane of the inside markings.

Clues 4 ... thru to 501 ... I don;t even know them myself, but there are lots and lots ......

You can buy genuine smuggled 501 imports, I know 2 shops in Bkk that sell genuine smuggled imports – one of them, looking from the front of MBK on the ground floor far end, left hand side (on your way now).

The whole point of all this has little to do with quality, although it’s undoubted that prominent brand name owners do make and effort to set quality standards, whats more important to them is maintaining an image and understanding consumer psychology – that is largerly what establishing and maintaining a brand name image is all about.

On the subject of – does the brand name owner own the factory or not, as someone ahs asked?

Very good question – in fact understanding the issues surrounding factory ownership goes along way to understanding the problems that brand name owners themselves have in dealing with a lot of the C/F that turns up on the Thai and South East Asian market. The answer is, no - many brand name owners have nothing to do with factories and own none: I’ll explain.

Odd as it may be, a lot of C/F actually comes out of factories where the genuine product is made.

Lets take 2 examples: Tommy Hillfiger and Nike – both these brand names own NO factories of their own: they sub contract production to 3rd party manufacturers, and there has been a big stink in the past with TH 3rd party production, and the conditions workers in some of the 3rd party TH factories live and work in – and there was also an IRS investigation into old man Hillfiger himself, and his “alleged” shareholding in some of the factories in Thailand, which he swore he was not a shareholder of – but neither of these points have much to do with the subject matter at hand, I just mention them in case there is someone out there who comes back ands says, “well, TH himself does own factories” – he doesn’t believe me, he doesn’t.

Both Nike and TH (and many other brand name owners) are designers first and foremost who own the intellectual property associated with their products, and who run business models that avoid ownership and management of the production facilities. The issue gets complicated at times – especially in the production of shoes – and this is where/how you get so-called “genuine counterfeits”.

Take a look at the sole on your Nike (or Puma or whatever else) – it tends to be quite unique.

For each new shoe that Nike makes, it has to have a set of sole molds made up for the left & right hand shoe, and for each children’s and each adult size and half size a separate set of molds need to be made. Then, all these molds need to be repeated for each factory commissioned to manufacture the shoes. These molds cost a whacking lot of money to produce – not far off $25K for each pair size, which adds up to quite a bit for each new shoe model.

These molds are the key to manufacturing the shoe – and C/F or genuine, the mold is key.

Keeping control over the molds and how they are used in 3rd party factories/production facilties is the problem for brand name owners – loose control of the mold and you loose control of production.

Typically what happens, is that unethical licensed producers will get a set of molds and an order from the brand name owner for x amount of pairs of a shoe type, but secretly they will run off 2 x the contract amount - but hide the extra soles. They then pass on the extra soles to another factory which has spare production capacity, along with the shoe upper pattern. That factory will then get its staff to quite innocently and unknowlingly produce the shoe. But the key to this is the shoe sole mold – without that there would be no feasibility in making counterfeits, because C/F’ing shoes to sell on the cheap SEA markets does not justify the manufacture of molds.

That genuine Nike or Puma you purchase for $100 - $150 costs no more than $10 – 20 to produce in terms of labour and material costs. As such there is enourmous profit to be made by C/F producers.

… and the problem is similar in respect of Levi 501’s – except that the uniqueness lies in the weight and thread count of the denim and understanding the small markings that separate the genuines from the C/F’s – which most folk can’t notice – only the true fanatics will be able to pick out 501 denim long side non-501 denim – and that is exactly what the C/F producer is relying on: so long as it looks good enough to the buyer, they are good enough.

Lacoste – Thailand is a huge manufacturing base for C/F Lacoste, and one time a year guys from Lacoste come out to Thailand and do a walk around all the markets. It’s then followed up with a serious of raids.

The easy thing about C/F'ing shirts, is that, unlike shoes, they don’t need a mold – at worst they need some fancy silk-screening and lable making.

It’s interesting to note an earlier member making the observation with respect to c/f branded leather: the product and the lable are kept apart until the last moment….

And that is exactly the issue that makes confiscating branded clothing so difficult - the timing of the raid has to be spot on. The law that applies to branded clothing is brand name (versus copy right or trade mark – although these to latter laws can be applied, in Thailand it’s mostly brand name).

The labels will be made and kept at one location, and the actual article of clothing at a second location. The two will only come together when the c/f producer has his order and has been paid – he will then as quick as possible put the label on and get the goods to the buyer. As soon as they are off his hands he’s got rid of the “problem”.

So – is the fake gear good quality or not?

It may not be, it may be – remember fakes can oddly enough be genuine, but unauthorised production, so they will be at least as good as the genuine article.

Fakes can also come from factories that have no connection at all to genuine production, but they may or may not use comparable materials, and what determines that is how good the C/F’er wants the fake to look. The quality of a C/F product is as much about how much the C/F is willing to spend in production as it is in the market he wants to sell the product on: if it’s targeted at the SEA market then generally the quality of the material is lower than those fakes which are manufactured for smuggling to and distribution in Europe.

So fakes can be as good as the genuine product, but as a rule they tend not to be.

I’ve mentioned a couple of brand names here, but the problems described are not exclusive to these brand name owners – they are across the board and all brand name owners suffer from the same set of problems ... and the problems mentioned are but a small example of the issues asscoaited with genuine versus C/F .

[dondraper]

Why dont you save your money and buy great quality fakes? If you want to buy real stuff. Then i think The Emporium is your best bet. But i might be wrong.

Fakes are terrible quality and everyone knows they are fake and will laugh at you for being so pathetic as to by a terrible piece of clothing because of the label when there is no quality. I buy name brand clothing for the quality not the label.

Edited August 13, 2009 by dondraper

[MRDave]

I buy clothes that look good on me, and because of comfort, as for people laughing at people who wear fakes,well I dont drink in the country club with inbread people, seriously though our these the same type of people who laugh at people who try to speak thai, I think most people here no of that type of person and care even less what they think, lets face it fakes are cheap and they sell big, thats why theres stalls full of them and thais buy them as well, I myself laugh at mrs goldenballs and the like who with all the designer gear and money in the world , still have no class or style.

As for Levis, I just get my bro to bring them back from the USA were there £20 a pair, £40 is the most I' m willing to pay for a real polo shirt,

and I'II keep that for best and hang around the bars in my fake top, its not that I dont have the money, its that Im only willing to be ripped off to a certain degree, and £80 for a polo shirt that would cost much less to make is my limit, theres been a big thing on the bbc today about fakes with some miss information, some guy said blueberry closed in the UK due to too many people buying fakes,well I'm sure I heard they closed to move production somewere with cheap labour, being the real reason. though I some how don't think blueberrys prices will reflect this no doubt there profits will.

Edited August 22, 2009 by MRDave

[dondraper]

"I buy clothes that look good on me"

Fakes look fake, not good.

[azza09]

I always go to Tokyo Dept Store next to MBK for a look around and get some medioka brand name clothes that are the real thing and at least 1/3rd cheaper than back here in Australia, good cut and large sizes.

They have the larger sneaker sizes too for all you big footers.

Edited August 22, 2009 by azza09