State Of Emergency In Bangkok Lifted

[younghusband]

Good post PD- one that deserves serious consideration- maybe even debate

I beg to disagree - it's full of nonsense, point by point. It doesn't deserve even reading it.

I gave up when he compared PAD to SA taking over the streets, it's just beyond ridiculous.

Er, actually it's not ridiculous as anyone with a passing knowledge of European history would know.

I have recently finished Ian Kershaw's brilliant trilogy on Hitler.There's a good abridged version available at Kinokuniya.In fact while the comparison is not that clear I was often reminded that there are some similar features as between the tactics at least of the German Fascist movement and the PAD.I never thought I would see a reference to Karl Popper on this forum (probably not very polite to say why) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Popper would regard PAD as an enemy of the Open Society.Thais of the ruling class are incidentally highly sensitive to international opinion and the fact that PAD has been widely exposed in the wider world should not be underestimated as a factor.Interestingly the Thai press is increasingly focusing on the deeply unpleasant aspects of the movement.I retain my opinion that in due course PAD will be elbowed aside by the old eld elite when it has served its attack dog purpose.

[hammered]

SoE lifted equals everyone can discuss European history and throw the N and F words around. Oh no wait a moment that was done during the SoE too

Just as an aside and to see if anyone wants to get even further carried away on labelling things have a look at Mussolinis definitions of facism and enactments of facist government and it is possible to find a lot more and a lot more closer to mmany of our original homes than some little movement in Thailand or for that matter the government of the man in London both which do contain certain traits. Then again as we watch the demise of Lehman Brothers and we read facism ensures the regulation of corporations is removed while regulations on individauls are kept or tightened what should we think?

Truth is words like facism and nazi are bandied around because of their strong negative connotations in western psyche. they are used to try and dehumanise or belittle opponents. Then again isnt the act of dehumanising a facist/nazi trait?

[Plus]

YH, your comparison of PAD to nazis was just as ridiculous from day one.

Here we have a government run militant group with slogans like "We declare Udon a PAD free zone", we see them bashing people's heads with Thai flag poles, we see them hunting down their opponents all across Isan and the North, blocking roads and searching vehicles for PAD sympatizers, and you close your eyes to all of that and call PAD fascist.

When they came to Bangkok and threw bags of shit and urine at a completely peaceful PAD meeting at Thammasat while the police stood by and watched, you called PAD fascists.

It's simply incomprehensible.

[AlKing]

When I google for PAD in Thailand, PAD THAI (noodle dish) seems to come up a lot. I wonder if the 2 have anything in common.

[younghusband]

SoE lifted equals everyone can discuss European history and throw the N and F words around. Oh no wait a moment that was done during the SoE too

Just as an aside and to see if anyone wants to get even further carried away on labelling things have a look at Mussolinis definitions of facism and enactments of facist government and it is possible to find a lot more and a lot more closer to mmany of our original homes than some little movement in Thailand or for that matter the government of the man in London both which do contain certain traits. Then again as we watch the demise of Lehman Brothers and we read facism ensures the regulation of corporations is removed while regulations on individauls are kept or tightened what should we think?

Truth is words like facism and nazi are bandied around because of their strong negative connotations in western psyche. they are used to try and dehumanise or belittle opponents. Then again isnt the act of dehumanising a facist/nazi trait?

Don't fully understand your position.Are you suggesting I am throwing around the fascist label to dehumanise opponents? I thought I was making it clear I was referring to tactics.Frankly I could equally have referred to the street tactics of many other totalitarian groups.Your comments on "the man in London" and "Lehman Brothers" are simply incomprehensible to me at least.

[younghusband]

YH, your comparison of PAD to nazis was just as ridiculous from day one.

Here we have a government run militant group with slogans like "We declare Udon a PAD free zone", we see them bashing people's heads with Thai flag poles, we see them hunting down their opponents all across Isan and the North, blocking roads and searching vehicles for PAD sympatizers, and you close your eyes to all of that and call PAD fascist.

When they came to Bangkok and threw bags of shit and urine at a completely peaceful PAD meeting at Thammasat while the police stood by and watched, you called PAD fascists.

It's simply incomprehensible.

I'm not interested in debating whether PAD or its opponents have more thugs at street level.My point was about PAD tactics and to a lesser extent the leaderships agenda.The parallels are very clear with pre-war German fascist activity.Have you actually read about this?

[kurtgruen]

YH, your comparison of PAD to nazis was just as ridiculous from day one.

Here we have a government run militant group with slogans like "We declare Udon a PAD free zone", we see them bashing people's heads with Thai flag poles, we see them hunting down their opponents all across Isan and the North, blocking roads and searching vehicles for PAD sympatizers, and you close your eyes to all of that and call PAD fascist.

When they came to Bangkok and threw bags of shit and urine at a completely peaceful PAD meeting at Thammasat while the police stood by and watched, you called PAD fascists.

It's simply incomprehensible.

Well said Plus. Thanks.

As always, the TRT/PPP and it's syphatizers and paid protesters are showing their true colours. The more obvious it gets, that the PPP and their paid thugs are the agressors, the more desperate the people who defend them become.

All smoke and mirror tactics used many times before in history. Sad thing is, they do work on the uninformed and that's probably why they keep on with their mindless rants.

Then again, one only needs to look at the reality of the situation...

ASTV (owned by Sondhi), constantly (now and in the past), has aired public service announcements against child labour, family violence, drug abuse and for aids awareness and equality for women.

The PAD has the support of most Thai Unions plus the Thai Unions have international Union support

The PAD for the most part, has been peaceful in this conflict, as opposed to government sponsored Thugs.

The PPP/TRT is/where riddled with corruption, two of their prime ministers got thrown out because of it already, many MP's removed, because of vote buying convictions and now the party is looking at getting disolved real soon.

I continue to post these facts, to provide some clarity for people who are not aware of what is going on. So they have a comparison to what the "PAD Haters" have to say.

For alternative news (slightly different from the Government Propaganda Channels), there is also http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/ , which I recommend.

[Los78]

From TOC

It's been reported that a special team has been set up to hunt down the key 9 PAD members with outstanding arrest warrants. The team has been ordered to arrest the PAD leaders as soon as they step outside Government House.

The National Police has set up a special team to bring in custody the 9 key PAD members. They have been accused of treason. But until today police have not made a serious effort in trying to use force to apprehend the members who are often camping out inside the Government House alongside other PAD supporters.

Now there is no SoE the police are no longer overseen by the military and the police have just had a rather lareg infusion of Thaksin supporters into active senior posts

Should be interesting to see if anything comes of this report.

look at the source -TOC and than have a second thought on "news" starting with "It's been reported that ..."

that is nothing more than only propaganda to motivate the PAD Cult Sturmabteilung aka brownyellowshirts.

The 101 ideas to use some German Nazi words for the PAD.....One day they are called fascists one day communists, one day monarchists one day they want only money because they are bankrupt, while the next day they are super rich and pay everyone 1000 Baht....

It is getting boring....maybe post some facts or maybe some rumors but not just brain-dead bashing....

okay, is hard to resist to not draw that card.

0.but what you say to my point that this "news" from TOC is hardly "news" you can trust.

but now some facts to prove my point about the brownyellowshirts.

it's a antidemocratic movement, would you agree with that one? they got called that way by the international press, many quotes have been posted.did you read them?

1. they got called "One day they are called fascists one day communists, one day ..." looks like a discrepance, right? but is it not, i recommend to read the studies of Hannah Arendt: The Origins of Totalitarianism and Karl Popper: The Open Society and Its Enemies on totalitarianism to understand what those society models have in common.

i don't want go any depper academic here. i just mention both names to define the origin of my point of view, i am a big fan of popper and poppers critique of platos philosopher kings or marx historicism and any political theory that promise a new and better way, the only way and comes for example with lines like Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power.

but i am open for a further discussion on this and you can throw in some other names of other so called thinkers (Carl Schmitt), so that we have a base to debate about.

2. now i want explain why i called them brownyellowshirts.

the Sturmabteilung was a paramilitary organization of the NSDAP, that helps hitler came to power, that austrian with a vision: "The Nation"

SA motto ""All opposition must be stamped into the ground" that included violent street fights with that other working class movement.

but the "conquest of the streets" (adolf hitler) was also a extraparliamentarian tactic to weaken the government.

official SA pamphlet:

"Possession of the streets is the key to power in the state-for this reason the SA marched and fought. the public would have never received knowledge from the agitative speeches of the little reichstag faction and its propaganda or from the desires and aims of the Party, if the martial tread and battle song of the SA companies had not beat the measure for the truth of a relentless criticism of the state of affairs in the governmental system.

but i think you know the history and know also that the pre1933 nazi movement devloped to a big mass movement, represent quite a big part of the "people", also a pool of different suborganisations, factions and ideas, the 100% one Führer cult came later. pre-war nobody knowed what will really follow and chaplin made a funny movie.

i don't predict a barbarian state in thailand but there a parallels that worries me.

the PAD Cult style of the "conquest of the streets". do you still believe that was and is all peaceful?

hateful language and calling opponents subhumans we hear since the beginning. mass demonstration in front of embassies with nationalistic treats, blokade airports, besiege police stations, TV stations and government house is the conquest of the street.

the have various weapens, produce makeshift weapons, fully armored "guards" and paramilitaric riot training.

i don't post the pictures of that bloody street fights again, just two others that shows the "conquest of the streets" tactic.

caption:Anti-government protesters holding home made weapons and a police shield rally in the Royal Plaza in Bangkok, Thailand, Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008. ...

caption:Anti-government demonstrators wait for riot training Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008, near Government House in Bangkok, Thailand. . ...

that a reasons for me to compare them with the Sturmabteilung and call them brownyellowshirts.

if we would see in another part of the world a similar mob on the street but maybe with a neo-maoist or trotskyist agenda, i would compare them too with the nazis. see my point 1.

3. maybe not enough facts for you, so i will just quote some academics. i have done that before but you still speaking of rumors without facts.

To PAD watchers like Professor Prabhas Pintoptang of Chulalongkorn's faculty of political science, the coalition has been seen as planting structural hatred and division in society on a scale far worse than that ever achieved by the previous government under ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

In his interview with Thai Post last month, Prof Prabhas said the PAD had become ''an ultra-nationalist movement''.

He said the PAD was using the same demonisation tactics employed by the right-wing militia to crush the pro-democracy student movement in the mid-1970s, which ended in the lynching of student activists near Thammasat University on Oct 6, 1976.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280808_News/28Aug2008_news13.php

"Most dangerously, the PAD's new turn has the potential to lend a significant social base to a conservative and reactionary form of corporatism.

In the 1980s, the semi-fascist corporatist politics of the Revolutionary Council were marginalised as Thai politics democratised. The council became a laughing stock and the organisation was dubbed the "Joke Council". Somehow, the PAD seems to have reversed Marx's dictum that history repeats itself, first as tragedy and then as farce.

How far the PAD has travelled is perhaps illustrated by reference to a rally I observed in the middle of last week. A well-known rock star called on the spirit of the 1950s dictator Sarit Thanarat to deal decisively with corruption. The best that can be said of that episode is that people were applauding on cue"

Michael Connors, teacher of politics at La Trobe University. author of "Democracy and National Identity in Thailand" (2007).

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=128765

"The PAD leaders just lead the demonstrations, but are henchmen for much more influential and higher-up people. ...

But one is made to think why there have been such concerted efforts among various bodies in shaking up and attacking the government like this. The PAD kicked the ball. The media cheered. Political parties joined in, and passed the ball to the courts. And the courts shot the goal. Do these groups just converge by pure chance or a miracle? Apart from the courts, these groups overlap with those who killed students on Oct 6, 1976. This is a historical continuity. They are the same interest groups. Some are even the same persons."

Chaiyan Ratchakul, History Department, Faculty of Humanities, Chiang Mai University

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=707

so now you can call me brain-dead and keep it that way, but i prefer to rationalize and substantiate my points. and if others had called the PAD cult fascists and/or communists it is also justified. the accusation of being communists are special funny, because they come from both sides. antiPADists refer to tyrants like stalin, communist brainwash and a big failure in "society experiments" with all the results and suffer brought by it to the people. but i read also comments by proPAD cultists, proudly show their support because the are communist/socialists by heart, live in the illusion communism would be something good and also in the illusion the PAD cult is something like this. sad is that fellow proPAD cultists who should know it better don't enlighten them.

the PAD cult annoucment the direction of new politics for the Kingdom of Thailand as the only solution, "It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise.", reminds on the third way, third reich or marxism-leninism rhetoric

"But of all political ideals, that of making the people happy is perhaps the most dangerous one. It leads invariably to the attempt to impose our scale of 'higher' values upon others, in order to make them realize what seems to us of greatest importance for their happiness; in order, as it were, to save their souls. It leads to Utopianism and Romanticism. We all feel certain that everybody would be happy in the beautiful, the perfect community of our dreams. And no doubt, there would be heaven on earth if we could all love one another. But, as I have said before, the attempt to make heaven on earth invaliably produces hel_l."

Karl Popper

Coda: i admit, comparing with nazis is often not the best arguments. i prefer to call the PAD a cult, because of their fanaticism. they are " The True Believer" in the sense of Eric Hoffer.

but the other side also play the hitler card. i think you have seen those various thaksins-hitler posters.

for our american friends i want to show on photo that i saw on http://www.2bangkok.com/

Good post PD- one that deserves serious consideration- maybe even debate- but certainly more than dismissive guffaws.

Thaksin was really Bush. Hitler is still alive, and live under the name of Thaksin & Bush to avoid capture. I didn't realise these until I saw the photographic proof above. Picture don't lie.

Haha, Yes the propaganda machine of PAD is a little off the mark. I never saw Thaksin doing the Seig Heil before... haha

[hammered]

SoE lifted equals everyone can discuss European history and throw the N and F words around. Oh no wait a moment that was done during the SoE too

Just as an aside and to see if anyone wants to get even further carried away on labelling things have a look at Mussolinis definitions of facism and enactments of facist government and it is possible to find a lot more and a lot more closer to mmany of our original homes than some little movement in Thailand or for that matter the government of the man in London both which do contain certain traits. Then again as we watch the demise of Lehman Brothers and we read facism ensures the regulation of corporations is removed while regulations on individauls are kept or tightened what should we think?

Truth is words like facism and nazi are bandied around because of their strong negative connotations in western psyche. they are used to try and dehumanise or belittle opponents. Then again isnt the act of dehumanising a facist/nazi trait?

Don't fully understand your position.Are you suggesting I am throwing around the fascist label to dehumanise opponents? I thought I was making it clear I was referring to tactics.Frankly I could equally have referred to the street tactics of many other totalitarian groups.Your comments on "the man in London" and "Lehman Brothers" are simply incomprehensible to me at least.

I am suggesting that it is better not to throw such emtive labels around as in reality they stifle debate and reduce things to the pure slanging matches that take over these boards so often. YH I have always respected your opinion and I dont know know your personal motivations as to what you write but assume they are not meant to be at the level of dehumanising. However, I do believe that is the aim of some at least some who post on this board, and cannot see ho it brings anything to the discussion.

Traits of facism can be found in many groups and organizations was my other point. I have seen PAD and Thaksin both compared to Nazis on here and do not agree with it. Certainly the PAD have some characterisitcs of facist nature but the again so did Thaksin. My point about the collapse of Lehman brothers and all the criticim around it exposes a system where regualtion of corporations was reduced to virtually nil in a society where regulation of individuals has been dramatically increased. This is also an identifying trait of a facist government - Italy and Germany in the past. I could give a lot of other examples of facist traits in western liberal democracies but wont now. But does because we see a faicst trait in the US mean the US government is a real facist one? Just because we see a facist trait in PAD or Thaksin does it make them real facists? Etc.

[younghusband]

YH, your comparison of PAD to nazis was just as ridiculous from day one.

Here we have a government run militant group with slogans like "We declare Udon a PAD free zone", we see them bashing people's heads with Thai flag poles, we see them hunting down their opponents all across Isan and the North, blocking roads and searching vehicles for PAD sympatizers, and you close your eyes to all of that and call PAD fascist.

When they came to Bangkok and threw bags of shit and urine at a completely peaceful PAD meeting at Thammasat while the police stood by and watched, you called PAD fascists.

It's simply incomprehensible.

Well said Plus. Thanks.

As always, the TRT/PPP and it's syphatizers and paid protesters are showing their true colours. The more obvious it gets, that the PPP and their paid thugs are the agressors, the more desperate the people who defend them become.

All smoke and mirror tactics used many times before in history. Sad thing is, they do work on the uninformed and that's probably why they keep on with their mindless rants.

Then again, one only needs to look at the reality of the situation...

ASTV (owned by Sondhi), constantly (now and in the past), has aired public service announcements against child labour, family violence, drug abuse and for aids awareness and equality for women.

The PAD has the support of most Thai Unions plus the Thai Unions have international Union support

The PAD for the most part, has been peaceful in this conflict, as opposed to government sponsored Thugs.

The PPP/TRT is/where riddled with corruption, two of their prime ministers got thrown out because of it already, many MP's removed, because of vote buying convictions and now the party is looking at getting disolved real soon.

I continue to post these facts, to provide some clarity for people who are not aware of what is going on. So they have a comparison to what the "PAD Haters" have to say.

For alternative news (slightly different from the Government Propaganda Channels), there is also http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/ , which I recommend.

This is not exactly the intellectual heavy brigade but it's typical of the increasing tendency on this forum to impute ill will on anyone questioning the PAD agenda.Immediately one is a TRT/PPP puppet or flinging around fascist labels to dehumanise (rather disappointing the latter given its normallly reasonable source).Clearly there are some like the poster above that don't need to be taken seriously.However there are other thoughtful people broadly supportive of PAD who simply don't recognise the legitimate fears and anxieties of those who find the PAD approach deeply troubling.I do try and empathise with the concerns of the PAD rank and file while emphasizing the appalling leadership.It would be good if there was a little more appreciation that differing opinions should be respected - and in a way that penetrates to the heart of what is worrying about PAD.

[h90]

Good post PD- one that deserves serious consideration- maybe even debate

I beg to disagree - it's full of nonsense, point by point. It doesn't deserve even reading it.

I gave up when he compared PAD to SA taking over the streets, it's just beyond ridiculous.

Er, actually it's not ridiculous as anyone with a passing knowledge of European history would know.

I have recently finished Ian Kershaw's brilliant trilogy on Hitler.There's a good abridged version available at Kinokuniya.In fact while the comparison is not that clear I was often reminded that there are some similar features as between the tactics at least of the German Fascist movement and the PAD.I never thought I would see a reference to Karl Popper on this forum (probably not very polite to say why) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Popper would regard PAD as an enemy of the Open Society.Thais of the ruling class are incidentally highly sensitive to international opinion and the fact that PAD has been widely exposed in the wider world should not be underestimated as a factor.Interestingly the Thai press is increasingly focusing on the deeply unpleasant aspects of the movement.I retain my opinion that in due course PAD will be elbowed aside by the old eld elite when it has served its attack dog purpose.

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

[h90]

Haha, Yes the propaganda machine of PAD is a little off the mark. I never saw Thaksin doing the Seig Heil before... haha

Also Sondhi is here most probably not doing a "Sieg Heil"......

[permanent_disorder]

Haha, Yes the propaganda machine of PAD is a little off the mark. I never saw Thaksin doing the Seig Heil before... haha

posting pictures of songhi, caught him up in a moment thats look like a sieg heil salute proves nothing. and is pretty lame.

actually, there have been moments under the rule of that "charismatic" square head leader, where i thought the same. and that was not only a arm movement.

[cmsally]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

Amazing, how can you claim that it is not good or that the reader has not grasped the fundamentals of it, when you haven't read it yourself.

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

With any political movement it is common to study it in the context of other movements and schools of thought. Nothing is totally isolated. Don't forget that with many movements it is common for the leaders to have studied and spent time abroad (the PAD is no exception). These people are well aware of the mostly lower educational base of their supporters and will use strategies as they see fit; many of these strategies have been used at prior times in other places. Their exact outcome of course depends on the local situation but that doesn't make studying them across borders and history any less relevant.

It is like any type of training, when it is tried and proven to work it will work across borders and populations, it only has to be tweaked slightly to local variables.

Crowd motivation and promoting growth and support in political movements are no exception.

[younghusband]

I don't think that Chang Noi's latest piece has been posted yet.

The evolving anatomy of the PAD

By Chang Noi

Published on September 15, 2008

The key strategists appear to be three old soldiers, Chamlong Srimuang, Panlop Pinmanee and Prasong Soonsiri, prominent veterans of the battles against the communist insurgency and part of the shadowy legacy of Thailand's era of military rule. They are dedicated to the defence of nation and monarchy against all threats, particularly from the citizenry. Panlop has publicly boasted of overseeing the assassination of communist sympathisers in the 1980s and unleashing the Krue Se massacre in 2004. Prasong has long been linked with projects to influence politics in curious ways. The coup generals and serving military officers like General Pathomphong Kesornsuk have given open support and protection.

Bloodstream. Prominent leaders of modern business have attended rallies. Others are passionate in their support. Business associations conspicuously protested not against the violent invasion of Government House but against the emergency decree that followed. Such business leaders have normally intervened in politics only when the economy is threatened (eg 1992) but are now supporting a movement that courts massive economic damage. They turned against Thaksin for favouring his own family, a close circle of cronies and several financial figures heavily implicated in the malpractice which contributed to the 1997 crash. These same figures have resurfaced under Samak. This business faction believes support of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) is a means to prevent even worse damage to the economy.

Legs. State-enterprise workers have carried out selective strikes to signal the PAD's potential for disruption. These workers have a long history of organisation and political involvement. Over the long term they are committed to preserving a privileged position in the labour market. In the 1980s they were closely allied with various military politicians, but this link was broken by the 1991 coup-makers. The workers then networked with other civil-society groups to resist projects of privatisation by both the Democrat and Thaksin governments. Since the 2006 coup they have again been courted by the military.

Lungs. Some elements of the activist fringe of academics and NGOs, including some who have graduated to the Senate, support the PAD as a means to reform the political system, which they argue is corrupt, unrepresentative and inefficient. In the 1990s these groups campaigned for the 1997 constitution, decentralisation, educational reform and the shift to people-centred development planning. In the early 2000s they cheered Thaksin's promise to harness the bureaucracy and close down the godfathers. Many supported the coup and now the PAD in the hope these would provide space for reform. The new activism among students is partly an extension of this tradition.

Mouth. Sondhi Limthongkul and his media empire have significantly extended public space and brought new groups into public politics. Sondhi has broken the state's tight control over broadcast media with the help of new technology and (supreme irony!) the success of the old media barons in disrupting the establishment of a new legal framework of control. Sondhi has created a new political theatre which is both entertaining and involving. Like the US political conventions, the PAD rallies offer a quasi-religious experience of belonging to a cause, heightened by the self-mortification of sheltering from monsoon storms and queuing for the toilet. Sondhi has dedicated himself to "politics for the middle class", exploiting the long-growing fear of piratical capitalism on one side and populist democracy on the other. This message appeals to a blue-blooded elite, which feels its economic interests are threatened. It also appeals to the delicate combination of pride and insecurity in a new elite that has ascended to "high society" and the old "aristocratic" occupations (bureaucracy, military, the professions) over the past two generations. The PAD's most popular collectible has been a T-shirt emblazoned with "Sons of China defending the nation". Many of these new recruits to public politics are middle-aged women, but the catchment is much wider.

Hands. Members of the Santi Asoke sect are participants and service-providers. In the late 1980s and early 1990s members of this semi-outlawed sect supported Chamlong's crusade for cleaner politics. Subsequently they have been limited to occasional agitation on moral issues.

Spleen. The Democrat Party has effectively aligned itself with the PAD. Quite extraordinarily, the party has failed to make any condemnation of the PAD's desecration of the symbolic centre of national government. (Contrast the party's stance to the Assembly of the Poor's demonstrations a dozen years ago.) Korn Chatikavanij has justified the party's support as necessary to prevent the rehabilitation of Thaksin.

Teeth. Demonstrations always have a guard unit, but that of the PAD appears much larger and more aggressively armed than has been the norm. (Again, contrast the Assembly of the Poor.) Some of the guards are state-enterprise workers, but others are hired hands recruited from the city's floating population of casual labour, especially "ex-policemen and ex-military" (Sondhi Limthongkul). Judging from the seizures last week, the weapon of choice is the used golf club. These exquisitely engineered implements for an expensive elite sport have metamorphosed into heavy lumps of metal with a useful handle for causing injury to a fellow citizen. What symbolism!

There is more (especially in the background). Many different groups that have woven separate ways through the kaleidoscopic politics of the last two decades have come together in the audiences for the PAD's rallies and ASTV broadcasts. The foreign press has tended to portray the current polarisation as urban against rural and as a desperate, declining elite against the capitalist populism of Thaksin. Those formulas have a core of truth (and are utterly forgivable given the difficulty of explaining what is going on) but tend to over-simplify the PAD and over-idealise Thaksin.

Variety gives the PAD its current force but may limit its ability to move beyond demonisation to constructive reforms.

The distinguishing features of the movement are its wealth, its explicit and implicit use of violence and its magical protection against threats, including police action, court orders and legal process. In all these aspects, contrast the Assembly of the Poor rallies, the only prior campaign of comparable scale. These are the politics of class and privilege.

[sriracha john]

SoE lifted equals everyone can discuss European history and throw the N and F words around. Oh no wait a moment that was done during the SoE too

ready for more, hammered?

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

[h90]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

Amazing, how can you claim that it is not good or that the reader has not grasped the fundamentals of it, when you haven't read it yourself.

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

With any political movement it is common to study it in the context of other movements and schools of thought. Nothing is totally isolated. Don't forget that with many movements it is common for the leaders to have studied and spent time abroad (the PAD is no exception). These people are well aware of the mostly lower educational base of their supporters and will use strategies as they see fit; many of these strategies have been used at prior times in other places. Their exact outcome of course depends on the local situation but that doesn't make studying them across borders and history any less relevant.

It is like any type of training, when it is tried and proven to work it will work across borders and populations, it only has to be tweaked slightly to local variables.

Crowd motivation and promoting growth and support in political movements are no exception.

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

Or do you think that Sondhi plans concentration camps to gas 6 Mill Isaan people or that he'll attack Russia to rule the world??

complete non-sense....

[permanent_disorder]

Then again, one only needs to look at the reality of the situation...

ASTV (owned by Sondhi), constantly (now and in the past), has aired public service announcements against child labour, family violence, drug abuse and for aids awareness and equality for women.

The PAD has the support of most Thai Unions plus the Thai Unions have international Union support

...

For alternative news (slightly different from the Government Propaganda Channels), there is also http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/ , which I recommend.

ohh, how cute and good "public service announcements against child labour". evil rich people like trtppp have babies for breakfast, right?

that is called propaganda, if i want to know more about north korea a website like http://www.korea-dpr.com/ can be a beginning but not the final clue and sould not be the only source of information.

that statement about "most Thai Unions" is a 100% lie. read here about PAD and unions http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Labour-Unions-t211062.html

now go back to the telly, grab that and behave with decorum like a typical mature proPAD cultist.

[younghusband]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

Amazing, how can you claim that it is not good or that the reader has not grasped the fundamentals of it, when you haven't read it yourself.

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

With any political movement it is common to study it in the context of other movements and schools of thought. Nothing is totally isolated. Don't forget that with many movements it is common for the leaders to have studied and spent time abroad (the PAD is no exception). These people are well aware of the mostly lower educational base of their supporters and will use strategies as they see fit; many of these strategies have been used at prior times in other places. Their exact outcome of course depends on the local situation but that doesn't make studying them across borders and history any less relevant.

It is like any type of training, when it is tried and proven to work it will work across borders and populations, it only has to be tweaked slightly to local variables.

Crowd motivation and promoting growth and support in political movements are no exception.

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

Or do you think that Sondhi plans concentration camps to gas 6 Mill Isaan people or that he'll attack Russia to rule the world??

complete non-sense....

There is a slight irony here in that PAD purports to represent the educated section of the population.I tried to engage sensibly with this fellow but one may as well attempt a dialogue with an electric toaster.

[h90]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

Amazing, how can you claim that it is not good or that the reader has not grasped the fundamentals of it, when you haven't read it yourself.

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

With any political movement it is common to study it in the context of other movements and schools of thought. Nothing is totally isolated. Don't forget that with many movements it is common for the leaders to have studied and spent time abroad (the PAD is no exception). These people are well aware of the mostly lower educational base of their supporters and will use strategies as they see fit; many of these strategies have been used at prior times in other places. Their exact outcome of course depends on the local situation but that doesn't make studying them across borders and history any less relevant.

It is like any type of training, when it is tried and proven to work it will work across borders and populations, it only has to be tweaked slightly to local variables.

Crowd motivation and promoting growth and support in political movements are no exception.

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

Or do you think that Sondhi plans concentration camps to gas 6 Mill Isaan people or that he'll attack Russia to rule the world??

complete non-sense....

There is a slight irony here in that PAD purports to represent the educated section of the population.I tried to engage sensibly with this fellow but one may as well attempt a dialogue with an electric toaster.

Yes you are right, for educated people it is very difficult to speak with people like you (uneducated paid fanatics)

[Plus]

On one hand we have a massive party with insatiable demand for power and control, intolerant of dissent, demanding total loyalty, dedicated to the cause, demanding sacrifices for the nation, and not shy to enforce their version of "unity" by any means necessary including old fashioned head bashing.

On the other hand we have a motley crew of middle class workers, small businessemen, unionists, academics and housewives without any poiltical affiliation or clear vision for the future.

Pick your fascist side.

[animatic]

On one hand we have a massive party with insatiable demand for power and control, intolerant of dissent, demanding total loyalty, dedicated to the cause, demanding sacrifices for the nation, and not shy to enforce their version of "unity" by any means necessary including old fashioned head bashing.

On the other hand we have a motley crew of middle class workers, small businessemen, unionists, academics and housewives without any poiltical affiliation or clear vision for the future.

Pick your fascist side.

I'd pick the LEAST fascist side and most overtly kindly appearing:

middle class workers, small businessemen, unionists, academics

and housewives without any poiltical affiliation or clear vision for the future.

Sounds like a cross section of THAILAND right there.

Sounds like the back bone of most civilizations to me.

Might EASILY explain their popularity.

[Splatter]

Good post PD- one that deserves serious consideration- maybe even debate

I beg to disagree - it's full of nonsense, point by point. It doesn't deserve even reading it.

I gave up when he compared PAD to SA taking over the streets, it's just beyond ridiculous.

Er, actually it's not ridiculous as anyone with a passing knowledge of European history would know.

I have recently finished Ian Kershaw's brilliant trilogy on Hitler.There's a good abridged version available at Kinokuniya.In fact while the comparison is not that clear I was often reminded that there are some similar features as between the tactics at least of the German Fascist movement and the PAD.I never thought I would see a reference to Karl Popper on this forum (probably not very polite to say why) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Popper would regard PAD as an enemy of the Open Society.Thais of the ruling class are incidentally highly sensitive to international opinion and the fact that PAD has been widely exposed in the wider world should not be underestimated as a factor.Interestingly the Thai press is increasingly focusing on the deeply unpleasant aspects of the movement.I retain my opinion that in due course PAD will be elbowed aside by the old eld elite when it has served its attack dog purpose.

Yes plus, I've read Kershaw too. I've also had a look at the correspondence between an American advisor, Dr Sayre, and "Siam" back in 1926.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57607071213827/

I'd suggest Prof Kershaw would have preferred if you had cited his work, "The Hitler Myth" and its relationship with cults of personality. I think you would realise your theories omit references to some other fellahs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57607116838940/

(I think Mr Popper would be delighted to see Art History as well as Science introduced into a debate on falsifying truth. Ha Ha.)

[permanent_disorder]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

lets look what the sophisticated brain surgeon, historians, philosophers, the new avantgarde of new politics have to say:

PAD cult = good people

source: The Nation, bbc, flickr, 2bangkok.com

AI Na Liam Na Liam Na Liam , his followers fawn over

Mr. Na Liam is a mixed breed person, speak Thai mixed with English. He seems showy!...

Follower of Singapore, will go to hel_l, not be a humble person.

AI Na Liam, Na Liam, his face has sides more than geometry.

His sister also has a big stomach [meaning corrupt], less brain, fakes a vocation education degree to further study in university.

His daughter is quite dull, cheats on exam and still gets a bad grade.

His son has low IQ and wears black eyeglasses because he is a drug addict.

His wife cheats and is not humble. She walked at the Emporium and was abused by people.

Thailand may be a secret jail which is the army base of USA.

Singapore will come into the country and be arrogant without having to have a visa [to enter].

A Khmer black magician will be rich and spell the magical word when bad things get in the parliament...

Hitler is reborn and who has a son named Puangthongta.

http://www.2bangkok.com/06/squarefacesong.shtml

For example, social critic Sulak Sivaraksa on stage compared Thaksin to a dog that protesters should pity. Speaker Auychai Watha went too far with his show of extremely bad taste. "Whoever cheated [the country], may their children become whores infected with venereal disease!" exclaimed Auychai, who is chairman of a northeastern teachers' group.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/03/01...on_20001744.php

that is nothing new, pre coup, but that bad taste in language and pictures turned me off from the beginning. PAD - meschugge. that time only hate speech, propaganda for an uneducated and fanatic mob. sick and stupid.

but now they are up in arms and demand 'new politics'. that worries me, specially because the PAD cult is nationalistic, xenophobic and racist. and the mob screams hate slogans all the time, against USA, imperialist thaksin friend, UK, imperialist thaksin friend, Singapore, imperialist thaksin friend, khmer, poor country, thaksin friend, black magic wizards<sic> and so on. the PAD cult brings a mob in hate rage.

now you proPAD cultists can laugh at me and bring no arguments, except asking me if i get paid per post. how smart you are.

and now those drunken thugs, probably read books? Kershaw? only long text, to long to read and no colour picture.

they are not pro PAD = evil people:

There have been comparisons made in recent weeks between the rallies in Bangkok and the mobilizing of fascist, anti-democratic groups on the streets of Europe many decades ago. But it is in this targeting and redirecting of the work done by the courts that current events most closely resemble those of 1930s Germany.

In the Weimar period, the judiciary was increasingly manipulated and used to serve a particular set of interests, those of the emerging Nazis and their allies, against their political opponents. The courts throughout this time stuck to the letter of the law while defying its spirit, hollowing it out so that virtually anything could be made to fit inside but still be defended in legal terms.

Among the types of political cases brought to the courts, there was a category of artificially-created offenses, in which a crime may technically have been committed within the narrow terms of a statute but could only be made sensible if divorced from its historical and social setting, and reduced to minute details....

read all: http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Human_Rights/...o_problem/4355/

Thongchai Winichakul, a historian at University of Madison at Wisconsin wrote a note for the meeting criticising many Thai academic's view on the PAD which he regarded as flawed.

"If what the PAD have done for months and years, including creating the pretext for the coup in 2006, were not violence, please stop talking about any abstract, non-physical violence, such as structural violence, because that is a farce!" he said.

Thongchai said the PAD resembled the Fascist Party before World War II as it resorted to "propaganda, demagoguery, smear campaigns against the opponents, public indoctrination, fear mongering, militant nationalism, and so on."

read all: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/31...cs_30082051.php

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

There is a slight irony here in that PAD purports to represent the educated section of the population.I tried to engage sensibly with this fellow but one may as well attempt a dialogue with an electric toaster.

sometimes something (electric toasters?) makes me think the rule of philosopher kings is quite fascinating, but Karl Popper teached me the opposite.

and why someone with a brain to use want reach power rule in politics. much better things to do.

sorry, i hate to much pics, prefer text and thoughts to read, but there are illiterati amoungst us, can not read, watch only television, it's a service for them.

--------------------------

unrelated and based on a joke about the offers at Bookazine.

animatic, hitler is on sale (old politics), can you bring a pic of Popper?

-------------------------

Karl Popper spricht:

[Meerkat]

Looks like the PAD aren't happy now that the press won't treat them with the messianic respect they seem to feel they deserve.

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

Continued in The Nation.

[animatic]

Denying realism amounts to megalomania

(the most widespread occupational disease of the professional philosopher). (Popper, 1975)

As well as politicians...

sometimes something (electric toasters?) makes me think the rule of philosopher kings is quite fascinating, but Karl Popper teached me the opposite.

and why someone with a brain to use want reach power rule in politics. much better things to do.

Lets assume you are rushing to make a point,

but I would have chosen 'Karl Popper taught me'.

Easy enough to do.

In my opinion, the greatest scandal of philosophy is that,

while all around us the world of nature perishes - and not the world of nature alone -

philosophers continue to talk, sometimes cleverly and sometimes not, about the question of whether this world exists. They get involved in scholasticism, in linguistic puzzles such as, for example, whether or not there are differences between 'being' and 'existing'. (Popper, 1975)

Popper on Knowledge

1. If we think about human knowledge, we are likely to think about things we know

2. This will typically include such things as:

# explicit knowledge about facts and procedures

# tacit knowledge – including know-how, abilities to find things, from in our memories,

to in our office, to on the Internet, to via a network of contacts, and so on

3. We might also, now, see these things as interacting with data stored on,

and programs within, information technology

4. Popper would not disagree; but he stressed that to get a good picture of human knowledge,

we would do best to look at scientific knowledge

5. From that, he suggested three things become plain:

#Key elements in our knowledge consist of what are, in fact, tentative theories

*Just consider how much, by way of the working of natural regularities,

we take for granted at every moment in our lives

*The same is true, in terms of how social institutions and organizations function, including our own

#The content of these theories goes beyond what we are, or can be, aware of at any one time.

As William Bartley has put it,

we never know what we are saying, as our ideas have consequences of which we are not aware

Organizational Procedures as Methodological Rules

1. There is, however, a reverse side to the ideas that I was just discussing

2. It is that just as we may wish to have our organizational procedures (formal and informal)

instantiate good methodological rules, all kinds of procedures that we have for other purposes,

may work as methodological rules, but not necessarily as good ones

Consider the problem of power.

We clearly need people who will take decisions.

E.g. they must be able to decide, for the time being, what the best course of action is, in the light of discussion.

They must allocate tasks to people, decide on the deployment of resources and how things will be done.

In addition, they may play a key role in deciding when and how to reform our shared procedures and conventions,

and also when discussion should stop, and a (tentative) decision be made

#But, clearly, such power may inhibit learning –

i.e. those in positions of power may never discover that they are wrong, even if they would like to.

Not only may the powerful indicate clearly that they don't want their ideas criticized.

But others may think they don't, even if they do.

Compare the old stories about Emperors having to go about disguised as peasants, to find out how things are actually going;

but also contrast the well-known story about Saddam Hussein!

4. Less dramatically, all kinds of procedures we have for good reason, may serve to cut off learning

possibilities, as an unintended consequence

5. This leads to the exciting task of discovering:

9. How our procedures function as methodological rules

(ii)To what extent would it be useful to change them to things that enable us to learn better?

And how is this to be done?

(iii)Why ‘to what extent’? Well there may be other good reasons for them being as they are;

or the payoff from what we might learn might offer a low return to the time and effort that would be involved

(iv)What about ‘how’ – well, it is a bit like losing weight

(something about which I know something, as I have done it so often!)

Many goals can only be pursued successfully by indirect means –

e.g. one may have to find things that people will be happy to do for other reasons,

which have this as an indirect consequence.

6. All this indicates just a few of the things that, it seems to me,

come out of the kind of approach that Popper’s work suggests

All we can do is to search for the falsity content of our best theory.

We do so by trying to refute our theory; that is, by trying to test it severely

in the light of all our objective knowledge and all our ingenuity.

It is, of course, always possible that the theory may be false even if it passes all these tests;

that is allowed for by our search for verisimilitude.

Popper was a thinker, no doubts , but within his philosophical musings,

there is much that ALSO contracts your theorums on Thai socio-political methodologies.

it is dangerous to apply the abstracts of theoretical philosophers to nuts and bolts political realities.

Such is the case as he and Bartley note;

As William Bartley has put it,

we never know what we are saying, as our ideas have consequences of which we are not aware

.

Less dramatically, all kinds of procedures we have for good reason,

may serve to cut off learning possibilities,

as an unintended consequence

Edited September 16, 2008 by animatic

[jumnien]

Looks like the PAD aren't happy now that the press won't treat them with the messianic respect they seem to feel they deserve.

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

Continued in The Nation.

The madman Sondhi L. is facing criminal charges with a possible death penalty and he's trying to dominate and intimidate the Thai press! Unbelievable!

[animatic]

Looks like the PAD aren't happy now that the press won't treat them with the messianic respect they seem to feel they deserve.

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

Continued in The Nation.

The madman Sondhi L. is facing criminal charges with a possible death penalty and he's trying to dominate and intimidate the Thai press! Unbelievable!

Pretty simple.

1 ) If you are asked your questions and get your answers on a live stage with TV coverage,

you can't put your OWN spin on the answers later

2 ) The reporters trying also to be more or less APPEAR objective refused to go onto the PAD platform.

3 ) those charges come from the mind of Samak, and he's toast,

so the charges are diminished in viability as much as he is.

Only a meglomaniac like Samak would have pushed a charge like that in the first place.

Irrelevant.

[Los78]

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

Chamlong Srimuang, a leader of the PAD said on stage Tuesday that the PAD's five leaders would give their daily press conference on the PAD rally stage from 10-10.30am, instead of at the press room of the Government House.

If reporters have any questions, they can ask them on the stage and microphones are made available for reporters, he said.

He reasoned that the PAD protesters could get information about what their leaders said immediately without having to wait to read on the newspapers on the next day.

However reporters opposed the change, saying they may not be able to freely ask any question since they would be among PAD supporters who may get upset if reporters asked questions which they did not like.

Besides the PAD can broadcast the press conference through ASTV, the reporters cited.

Chamlong denied that the move put pressure on reporters, saying he guaranteed safety for reporters. He added that it was common and normal that the PAD leaders had verbal clashes with reporters during press conference.

None of reporters asked any question after Chamlong invited them for queries. The reporter left the rally with boos and jeers from the PAD supporters.

Government House beat reporters believed the PAD changes its press conference method because the PAD leaders failed to identify their ultimate goal and objectives in their sit-in protest.

-Nation 16/09

I dont blame them.... Getting clubbed to death by PAD sheep for asking the wrong questions.

[Los78]

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

Amazing, how can you claim that it is not good or that the reader has not grasped the fundamentals of it, when you haven't read it yourself.

Please expound as to how your knowledge of European history is greater if you wish to say that the poster is mistaken.

With any political movement it is common to study it in the context of other movements and schools of thought. Nothing is totally isolated. Don't forget that with many movements it is common for the leaders to have studied and spent time abroad (the PAD is no exception). These people are well aware of the mostly lower educational base of their supporters and will use strategies as they see fit; many of these strategies have been used at prior times in other places. Their exact outcome of course depends on the local situation but that doesn't make studying them across borders and history any less relevant.

It is like any type of training, when it is tried and proven to work it will work across borders and populations, it only has to be tweaked slightly to local variables.

Crowd motivation and promoting growth and support in political movements are no exception.

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

Or do you think that Sondhi plans concentration camps to gas 6 Mill Isaan people or that he'll attack Russia to rule the world??

complete non-sense....

I dont think you can make such as comparison as Europe obvously..... PAD's retoric is quite similar if you watch the early Hitler or Stalin speeches its similar to PAD's leadership propaganda thats making their supports more and more brainwashed like during the second world war. We all know PAD's views on the farmers of the North and North East. PAD is filled with ex military and general types so it actually dosent take much for similarities to happen if they were ever to get what they wanted. Dont forget the only casualty of the voilence sofar has been from people who oppose PAD's illegal activities.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Los78