PAD, Democracy and Labour Unions

[Jefferson]

Pad: bulldog on a leash or another nail in democracy's coffin

Published on July 21, 2008

Since it was formed in February 2006, and especially since it was revived in May of this year, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), has become a distinctive force on the political landscape.

Formally, the PAD is simply an alliance of five orators. But as a political phenomenon, the PAD is also what they are saying, how they are saying it, what visual messages they convey, and who is supporting them.

The movement's main stated aim is to overthrow the current government. Normally any movement that professed this aim would be labelled dangerous, even revolutionary, and be strongly handled by the authorities. Strangely that is not happening. Probably that is because we know its true aim is to obstruct Thaksin's overt return to politics.

The movement's longer-term aim is to undermine the central principles of electoral democracy, namely the sovereignty of the people, and the selection of a parliament by the system of one-man, one-vote. The PAD leaders claim that the electorate cannot be trusted with the franchise because the mass of rural people are uneducated and corrupt. They want the elected portion of the lower house reduced to a minority (perhaps 30 per cent), and the remainder filled partly by "retired officials and important people" and partly by ordinary people and workers, selected by appointment. Since the logic of the PAD's proposal is to disenfranchise the rural poor, this new system is likely to favour the rich, the urban, and the higher educated.

In addition, the PAD wants the military to have a permanent role of political oversight. The military would be removed from political control (by making the defence ministry independent of the Cabinet), and granted the right to intervene in politics to check corruption and to protect the monarchy and national sovereignty.

The PAD seems against the freedom of expression, and in favour of the use of abuse and intimidation to limit the freedom of expression. This conclusion is based on the way PAD orators treat academics, actors or other public figures who disagree with its views. This tactic seems to have been quite successful. Some critics have apologised. The press has been generally rather uncritical of PAD's views and activities.

The PAD makes use of military and martial symbolism. Some of the leaders like to wear brown shirts and black shirts that resemble military and paramilitary uniforms. The headbands worn by leaders and followers recall the outfits of traditional warriors, samurai, and jungle fighters. The oversized neckscarf comes from the scouts, village scouts, and jungle fighters. It is not Chamlong's rural-ascetic look but this barracks-chic that distinguishes the movement. Among the supporters, yellow flags, headbands, T-shirts, and caps combine to give the impression of commonality and conformity which is the role of uniforms.

PAD promotes a visceral nationalism reminiscent of the early Phibun era. The nation is a body that is being physically ripped by its enemies (internal and external), causing pain to the citizens, who must rise up in the nation's defence.

The PAD's agitational practice suggests a high degree of organisation, strong financing, access to technology, and skill with sophisticated techniques. The equipment for staging and broadcasting the PAD's message requires high capital cost and running expenses. The crowds are well organised and provisioned. The programming shows strategic planning to sustain support and interest with relatively little novelty. The PAD seems skilled in the techniques and rituals of litigation. In short, this is not a few people gathered at a street corner with a soap box.

Analysing the PAD's audience on the streets and in front of television screens is difficult. There are only stray interviews, plus pictures. Perhaps the single word that emerges from this impressionistic data is "respectable". The crowds are generally smartly dressed. The age profile is quite high, though there are also many families in attendance (and the TV audience may be significantly younger). Head-counting from press photos shows a slight preponderance of women over men. From the few on-site interviews available, the crowds include retirees, public servants, small business people, and senior executives from modern firms. There seem to be relatively few manual workers.

The PAD is clearly well connected to other institutions. One of its leaders is a Democrat MP. Other Democrats have spoken from its stages. So too have academics from some of Bangkok's major universities. A serving general has taken the PAD stage in his full uniform. Other military figures, including General Saprang Kalayanamitra, have been seen backstage and are open in their support.

The PAD seems to be protected, perhaps by friends in important places, but also by virtue of its widespread urban support. No other Bangkok protest has suffered so little harassment. When the prime minister angrily threatened to clear PAD off the streets, the security forces refused to cooperate and the prime minister had to back down. When PAD set up a permanent blockade of roads, the police stood aside and public-opinion surveys were surprisingly lenient over the disruption to traffic. When the protest moved to Government House, the police resistance looked like a token showing designed to fail. This apparent immunity gives weight to PAD's message.

The PAD is flirting with the old agent provocateur's technique of placing its own crudely armed gangs in places where they will be attacked by enemies. This creates violent incidents, apparently initiated by their opponents, though in truth a result of the inherent violence of the PAD itself.

In short, PAD is an anti-democratic movement, supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence.

Is PAD a bulldog, let out on a leash for a specific purpose, that will be chained up when the threat from thieves has passed? Or is it another step in the destruction of democracy begun by Thaksin, continued by the coup-makers, and now plunging ahead on the momentum?

Source: http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/21/opi...on_30078561.php

[bkkjames]

Thailand News Clippings???

[Plus]

And a reply:

PAD the only force keeping Thaksin and cronies in line

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/22...on_30078669.php

Like it or not, but when all other chanells of communicating with the government failed, there was only PAD left.

If you try to dig up dirt on PAD, you'll definitely succede, but so far that's the only tool that works. You might not like the smell of a plumber as well, but as the alternative is so much worse, just pinch your nose and say thank you. Someone has to do your dirty work.

[Jefferson]

Thailand News Clippings???

You can't post in there; a moderator will have to move the post into there.

[jumnien]

Excellent post revealing the reality of PAD and its extreme danger to the nation. Fortunately, many Thais who supported PAD, admittedly few to begin with, are waking up from their zombie like slumber and are backing off support for this ultra-conservative hyper-nationalistic political force that refuses to list as a political party and run a candidate.

[Spee]

In addition, the PAD wants the military to have a permanent role of political oversight. The military would be removed from political control (by making the defence ministry independent of the Cabinet), and granted the right to intervene in politics to check corruption and to protect the monarchy and national sovereignty.

Source: http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/21/opi...on_30078561.php

This bit bothers me more than just a little. The concepts are contrary to every successful modern democratic based government. IMHO, Thailand is doomed to repeat past failures and remain in the 2nd world, lower tier stratum with these sorts of notions.

[tijnebijn]

Thanks for this thread Jefferson , surprises me none of the pink glasses brigade

is trying to proof otherwise .

[clausewitz]

Thanks for this thread Jefferson , surprises me none of the pink glasses brigade

is trying to proof otherwise .

Did you mean 'pink glasses' or 'kool-aid drinking followers of the red brigade'?

[tijnebijn]

Thanks for this thread Jefferson , surprises me none of the pink glasses brigade

is trying to proof otherwise .

Did you mean 'pink glasses' or 'kool-aid drinking followers of the red brigade'?

Well yes the last description might very well be a better one .

[Edonista]

P.A.D. = Privileged Against Democracy

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think PAD are SEVERELY misguided... What a bunch of clowns! It's actually very worrying that so many people take them serious, Farangs included.

[wolfmanjack]

Personally i agree with anyones right to protest anything they want. What i do not agree with is the protesters breaking the law by blocking roads and getting violent. Also the protesters on opposite sides should be kept apart so it does not turn into a gang fight.

[A_Traveller]

The reality is that PAD has functioned much as a lightning rod, or a catalyst in a reaction. In their case they, often, to be clear, with questionable motives, have brought matters into public purview, and have provided a litmus test for the acidity of an issue for the government of the day.

Further, they really do appear to be a spent force, they only continue to exist by and large because of the inherent weaknesses of the present government {ineffectual, agenda not policy driven, etc.}. To make PAD go away requires only that the government do the real job they were elected to do, not the continual 'lets change the rules, people, and accountability measures' which characterises them.

I find it odd that people herein give PAD, as an entity, any associative power, they never had any, nor are they likely so to obtain any.

Why be afraid of criticism, is that not part of a pluralistic democratic process, or do some prefer, however they dress it up, a single drumbeat?

Regards

PS The OP could, of course added this to a suitable thread in the news area, but choose to create this 'new' one.

/edit the mad typist strike again//

Edited July 24, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Heng]

More like a poodle in the yard. Harmless.

[kmart]

This bit of the op's quote rips me up:

The PAD leaders claim that the electorate cannot be trusted with the franchise because the mass of rural people are uneducated and corrupt.

Hopefully, out of the wider extremes of blow-hard dickheads with their own selfish agenda professing to love the country, a more sensible middle path will emerge. But I'm not holding my breath.

[bunthom]

One man - one vote - 300 baht

[geriatrickid]

There are repeated references to "union" support for PAD. If one reads the statements of key people in the labour union movement it becomes obvious that there is almost no support for PAD from the independent labour movement. How can anyone except an idiot believe otherwise? The continued statements that there is support does a disservice to the free union movement and workers. The fact is that the independent labour movement has not supported either side in the dispute. What it has done is to come out in support of maintaining and improving democracy in Thailand. Although it is no fan of the current government, it has neither advocated its overthrow nor the PAD initiated erosion of voting rights. One thing is obvious though: The Independent labour movement does not support PAD. Here are some reasons why;

1. PAD and Labour Rights

Janya Yimprasert Labour activist and union organizer

The right-wing PAD leadership has not the slightest concern for the jobs and conditions of working people, nor, despite its name, for the defense of basic democratic rights. The PAD leaders, media mogul Sondhi Limthongkul and ex-general Chamlong Srimuang, a former Bangkok governor, are connected to conservative sections of the military, state bureaucracy and royalist establishment.

2. The Labour Groups Supporting PAD Do Not Represent The Workers

Ji Ungpakorn PhD, Assoc. Prof. Chulangkorn University, Union Supporter, Member of Workers Democracy group;

The railway workers' union and the Thai Airways union have also shown their support for PAD. The rail union leaders have never campaigned for hundreds of rail employees who have been on temporary contracts without welfare for decades. The Thai Airways union has ignored military corruption in the airline and in the airports authority. Both unions have turned their backs on serious attacks on trade unions in the private sector and are only prepared to take action when people in high places give them the green light. http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=15899

3. Labour Group Support Comes Only From State Organizations With A Vested Interest

John Roberts, International Socialist Workers Group (and international union activist);

The involvement of trade unions is connected to concerns among government workers that Samak will continue Thaksin's economic restructuring, which involved the privatisation of state enterprises and job losses. Sondhi backed Thaksin's election in 2001 when he campaigned against the Democratic Party and its free-market policies, promising to protect Thai businesses. But as Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai (TRT) government came under pressure and began to implement pro-market economic reforms, Sondhi turned against him and launched PAD in 2005.

My interpretation? Fear of opening the market to competition scares some people that have grown accustomed to monopolies.

Brussels, 26 November 2007: The International Trade Union Confederation report on the respect for core labour standards in Thailand was released. The report shows that there remain serious violations of all core labour standards in the country. Thailand did not ratify the ILO core Conventions on trade union rights. Trade union rights are restricted in Thailand both for private sector workers and state enterprise workers. The report references political manipulation of certain industry union and provides examples of trade union discrimination, harassment and intimidation in the last two years. The report also highlights gender and ethnic discrimination in state industries (the very labour groups that support PAD). For example, in the civil service, women are underrepresented in high wage jobs. They are also paid less for equal work.To see the full report http://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/Thailand_report_final.pdf

4.Why There Is An Impeded Free Trade Union Movement in Thailand

Janya Yimprasert Labour activist and union organizer

Trade unions in Thailand cannot be independent as long as they require registration and certification from the government and have to obtain permission from their employers under the current 'tripartite' laws regulating trade unions in Thailand. This indicates that labor democracy has not been realized in recent decades. Since 1975, laws and regulations concerning trade unions have been determined by the government. The fact is that leaders of the more progressive labor movement have never had a chance to openly criticize the leaders in the congress level. It is high time that leaders of the "progressive" labor movement take measures to put a stop to those taking advantage of the working class.

Conflict of Interest Statement: I am neutral on the subject of unions and have no vested interest in either being pro or anti union. This entry is merely a reflection of the published views of reputable and influential members of the union movement in Thailand.

Edited September 7, 2008 by geriatrickid

[londonthai]

come on, who is Janya Yimprasert - stating that he is an activist and organiser doesn't say what union, what branch and what position he has.

the other one, Ji Ungpakorn, is a member of a political group, stating that he is 'union supporter' doesn't give him any credibility if you don't say what union and what he does for that union.

whatever the truth is (whether unions do support pad or not) you did not do a great job of explaining it, quoting a trotskyist rag from the UK is not enough - the fact is, that railway and thai airways unions do support pad.

you have to accept, that trade unions are often politicised and used in a political game and that trade unionism is a dead end idealogy

[thaigene2]

I also wondered why any union that really represents its membership and the wider cause of solidarity would even consider climbing into bed with the PAD. It makes absolutely zero sense. A group that calls for an end to one-person-one-vote to be replaced with a cabal of rich elites backed by a traditionally right-wing military?

Unless, of course, the leadership aren't really representing their members' best interests? Remember the Teamsters and the Mafia of years gone by?

I reckon Ajarn Ji has it about right.

[geriatrickid]

come on, who is Janya Yimprasert - stating that he is an activist and organiser doesn't say what union, what branch and what position he has.

the other one, Ji Ungpakorn, is a member of a political group, stating that he is 'union supporter' doesn't give him any credibility if you don't say what union and what he does for that union.

whatever the truth is (whether unions do support pad or not) you did not do a great job of explaining it, quoting a trotskyist rag from the UK is not enough - the fact is, that railway and thai airways unions do support pad.

you have to accept, that trade unions are often politicised and used in a political game and that trade unionism is a dead end idealogy

I acknowledge your criticisms and understand your concern. My point in referencing these people is that they are well known in the union organizing movement in Thailand. I asked my friends to name the people that stuck out the most and these are the names they came up with. There is no point is citing people that aren't reputable members of the union movement if one wishes to present views of the union movement, right?

To answer your question about Janya Yimprasert, she is a coordinator of the Thai Labour Campaign and editor of Labour Focus Magazine. Also well known in human rights campaigns. This person is cited in many articles and newsbriefs and has received active support from international unions and human rights groups in respect to her organizing efforts on behalf of women in the textile industry.

Prof. Ungpakorn is one of the most respected people in labour organizing circles in Thailand. He was also a stern critic of the military regime. There are many references for him if you look. Here's one;

In 2007 Chulalongkorn University authorities ordered the university bookshop to refuse to sell Professor Ungpakorn's book "A Coup for the Rich". The book, by the Political Science Professor, criticised the military coup and the destruction of democracy in Thailand.

I neither agree with his politics nor his views, but he does represent the reality of what many labour activists are thinking.

Yes I accept that some unions can be politicized, but that was one if the points of my post: That some trade groups were being manipulated by political groups with a vested interest in supporting PAD. It's no different than in the bad old days of Teamster politics, the Mafia would use the Teamsters to muscle companies for payoffs (as per Thaigene's reference), or the International Seafarers Union under Tommy Banks that went to market. Over time, the unions cleaned up their acts and went from being puppets to working on behalf of their members. This doesn't mean that all unions are corrupt just that it exists. Thailand is at the same stage of union development as the west was 30-40 years ago.

One makes a serious mistake to assume that trade unionism is a dead end idealogy as you say. Unions fill the breach where businesses fail to address the basic needs of the workers, such as safe working conditions, fair wages and equitable labour practices. The wind is taken from the sails of unions if companies behave better. I am no fan of unions but it's obvious to me that unless the workers in Thailand large factory industries like aquaculture and textiles are organized, child labour will continue, women will be exploited and the companies will continue to disobey existing labour laws.

Edited September 7, 2008 by geriatrickid

[permanent_disorder]

difficult to find any deeper inside information about unions and their place in thai society.

i could rant about unions in general but just look at those unions of state enterprises and what worries me here.

it is the pro-market strategy of thaksin politics. they are against privatisation. fine, there are many pro and contras when it comes to privatisation. a couple of people would lose the job or the right of free energy for employees. but wouldn't more competition lower the level of corruption you can find in a state own monopol? no more dodgy contracts but contracts based on economic reasons. prices lower for customers.

market liberalisation & privatisation = less power for a government.

what's wrong with privatisation, do the sondhi movement deliver a elaborate statement?

the motives of these "unions" are not the one you hear from your typical "against exploitation of labour movement".

it is just pure hate, hate against thaksin. and ultra nationlist xenophobic BS, like foreign companies would steal from thai people. they are not just against the way privatisation is done under TRTPPP, they are against privatisation at all.

economic wise will that just scare foreign investors away. and the PAD will be against any law that makes foreign investment more easy. its backward. my opinion

i did google bit on this unions, didn't found so much just on a sidenote, that the goverment dosn't pay the electric bill and that the unions will cut the power supply next tuesday is an old hat. this accusation have been claimed since years and is not really a reasonable motiv to start a "revolution" against the "government from hel_l"

one piece i found is interesting. again it comes from Giles Ji Ungpakorn and you could say that is just a trotzkyist, so i doubt his credibility. but he is also a respected university lecturer at Chulalongkorn University and political scientist. for example things we know about the recent thai history, like the october 1976, we know because of his work and studies on this subject. he is the one who pointed out samaks involvement 1976.*

Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager media group promoting violence against a young student activist and a Chairwoman of a workers union

"Over 130 trade unionists, social activists, students and academics have put their names to an open letter condemning the behaviour of The Manager media group.

Those signing the letter include many academics at Chulalongkorn and Thammasart Universities, including the Dean of the faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University. Former Senator Jon Ungpakorn and Rawadee Prasertcharoensuk from the N.G.O. Coordinating Committee, Professor Niti Eawsriwong, Textile trade union leaders, worker activists and an academic from the Midnight University are among the signatures.

The letter is in response to the actions of Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager group in promoting violence against a young student activist Chotisak Oonsung, who is being accused of lèse majesté because he refused to stand up for the King's Anthem at the cinema. Both Manager group websites and its radio station, Metro Life, have encouraged Ultra-Rightwing Royalists to attack Mr Chotisak. Ms Jitra Kotchadej, Chairwoman of the Triumph workers union has also been made a target for violence by The Manager media. Ms Jitra was singled out because she wore a T-shirt supporting the right to different views in society, including not standing up at the cinema. Both Mr Chotisak and Ms Jitra's photographs and home addresses were published alongside urges to attack them.

The Manager media also encouraged people to attack and break up a meeting on Human Rights at Thammasart University recently.

Those signing the open letter compare the behaviour of The Manager with the past behaviour of Rightwing media such as Dao Sayam newspaper and the Tank Corps radio station in inciting violence that led to the 6th October 1976 blood bath.

The letter calls on people to boycott The Manager media group for abusing basic human rights. The letter also calls on P.A.D. leaders Somsak Kosaisuk, Pipop Thongchai and Somkiat Pongpaiboon to come out and officially condemn The Manager. "

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=642

i doubt PAD will do any good for thailand.

anyway, this would be another topic where proPADist could explain in a decent manner where are the plus points of the PAD. in other thread they get excited about the union involvment. but i guess without any substance and significance. the why question was often ask and i think that is the reason of geriatrickid to open this topic. it remains unanswered. proPADist have no clue.

*i am not going to defend samak, but just blame him for 1976, like it is done in discussions on TV, is a short, cheap shot. it ignores the political situation back that days and the way "history" is written. who (besides chomsky) would defend the socialist experiments of pol pot in cambodia, in laos the communist build "reeducation camps". thailand had a big anti-left movement. a mass movment, royalist, army, clerics, academics, worker, village people, monks, students and all of then didn't like the thammasart students. the persons who are involved in the background. just a few points you have to consider.

students of 1976 movement became later founding members of TRT and also members of thaksin and samak cabinet. generals like Pallop Pinmanee you can find on the side of PAD. and Pallop don't deny his past. the slogans against the thammasart students you can hear today in similar style from PAD.

[thaigene2]

One makes a serious mistake to assume that trade unionism is a dead end idealogy as you say. Unions fill the breach where businesses fail to address the basic needs of the workers, such as safe working conditions, fair wages and equitable labour practices.

I think we could see a resurgance of unionism worldwide. Especially if the world economy falls off a cliff or even takes hard roll down the hill..People will begin to band together to demand action, jobs and labor protection. It's human nature..

[kurtgruen]

One makes a serious mistake to assume that trade unionism is a dead end idealogy as you say. Unions fill the breach where businesses fail to address the basic needs of the workers, such as safe working conditions, fair wages and equitable labour practices.

I think we could see a resurgance of unionism worldwide. Especially if the world economy falls off a cliff or even takes hard roll down the hill..People will begin to band together to demand action, jobs and labor protection. It's human nature..

Hello everyone, I promised to stop in and here I am.

Here are just a few links, for those of you, who are interested in the Labour Movement (Unions)

The Canadian Labour College with many links and info: http://www.labourcollege.ca/

Some phone numbers there to get some answers from different Thai unions and labour organizations: http://www.ilo.org/public/english/dialogue...io_thailand.htm

Here is a good one relating to the current struggle...http://www.wftucentral.org/?p=2142&language=en#more-2142

Here is one with news clips from around the world about the labour movement. This link for Thailand... http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/show_ne...ountry=Thailand

Tons more stuff online, sorry, I'm off to bed

Good night everyone, hope this helps a bit

[permanent_disorder]

^^ yeah kurtgrün, thanks for the links, very entertaining.

Here is a good one relating to the current struggle... http://www.wftucentral.org/?p=2142&language=en

that is a joke, right. let's have a look how ambitious, detailed and in epic explanation the World Federation of Trade Unions told their what is going on in thailand:

Solidarity with the people of Thailand

3 September 2008

The government of Thailand is trying to terrify the workers in the country, who are on an on-going strike since last week.

Yesterday, the 73-year-old Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej declared a state of emergency in the capital city of Bangkok. The army came into action. The WFTU calls upon the working class of Thailand to reinforce their struggle against privatizations, against price-rise and against unemployment. The policy of all politicians that have ruled the country until now is the reason for the problems of the Thai people. The policies of the two big political parties are different from the real interest of the people.

We express our solidarity and internationalism with the working class of Thailand for the progress of democracy and the abolition of the exploitation from man to man.

-----end of message.

har, har - ridiculous. who wrote that piece of nonsense? guess, some WFTU bureaucrat. sitting in a warm office, got well paid by the union and produce nothing, zero, nada.

but at least he got the age of samak right, i hope so didn't check. and it comes with a picture http://www.wftucentral.org/wp-content/thai-police.jpg

news clips from around the world .... http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/show_ne...ountry=Thailand

thanks for that, google news is probably better but who cares.

i read a couple of "news" nothing of deep thought and a lot just to bangkok post or the nation.

but if you had read it by yourself, you would have found the interessting case of Jitra Kongdej. i wrote in my other post how this union leader is a victim of PAD cult hate propaganda. her photographs and home addresses was published alongside urges to attack her.

kurt, you maybe called lies and conspiracy theory by the evil trtppp, but even The Nation reports it.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/01...al_30079517.php

Workers stage protest over sacked leaders

The labour dispute began with a twist when union leader Jitra Kongdej wore a campaign T-shirt in support of Chotisak Onsoong - who refused to stand during the Royal Anthem last September - to participate in a television talk show on the state-run NBT channel to talk about abortion.

The campaign T-shirt which read "Not to stand is not a crime. To think differently doesn't make one a criminal" became a subject of attack by the pro-monarchist and anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

yes kurt, so much about the unity of thai unions. if you dare to think different you become a subject of hate of the PAD cult mob.

[geriatrickid]

I am no fan of unions, but they often step in to fill the breach when no one else will step up to help. Case in point is the current attempt to stop the use of child labour at shrimp processing plants. The plight of children working long hours for minimal wages does not seem to have attracted the support of any of the "union" leaders currently backing PAD. I wonder why?

[Pierrot]

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

[Koo82]

They harassed me and other members when we didn't agree with them. The PAD also have this attitude on the stage when they protest (they seldom use polite language. They take turn to blame). Very childish I must say.

[JetsetBkk]

I don't think they are "the enemy within", but I wish they would simply acknowledge that other people have a different view from them. No one knows the entire history of Thailand - at least over the last 80 years - but some act as if they do and take on a superior attitude to other posters who know just a little of the history.

It's also quite sad that some posters who I used to believe were impartial and respected them for being so, have turned out to be quite obsessed with a particular viewpoint. Quite sad.

It was much more fun when we all took the mickey out of every Thai government, but the PAD vs. PPP fight has taken a lot of the fun out of it.

[Maizefarmer]

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

Are they paid? - quite possible: paying folk for political support is common in Thailand - Thaksin used the tactic to devastating effect over the oppisition, so it would come as no suprize to find others copying the tactic.

[mrt273nva]

so it would come as no suprize to find others copying the tactic.

copying happens in abundance in Thailand. Not much original thought in this area of the world. Problem is, the copying rarely improves upon the original idea. PAD are showing their true colors more and more. Perhaps the old way of things wasn't so bad after all.

Taksin is a genius and I still support the man and always have. He is a smart man and will never fall too far, and if he does, it won't take long for him to pick himself back up. He did wonderful things for Thailand, but it is easily forgotten.