Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[blaze]

And at 2) people not matter if PAD or police are not treated if the DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.

To don't treat violent people seems shocking while it is perfectly OK to reject poor people? Strange world, strange ethics.

No it is certainly not ok to reject poor people. And to the best of my knowledge, nobody claimed that on this thread.

I'm still puzzeled at the use of the term "violent people", who determines if someone could be deemed violent, is it just becasue they wear a certain uniform ?

Could Pad protestors not be deemed violent on the same criteria, and should that not be a job of a court of law, rather then a doctor ?

No but everyone accept it that poor people are rejected. Go in any of these non government hospitals.

Violent people are doing harm to others. Clearly the police. PAD did not attack anyone ever. They only defended themself.

Yes a certain uniform is enough. I wouldn't sell to someone coming in Nazi uniform.

And not to forget it is only for non serious problems. Nobody told to let policemen die.

That's an interesting arguement- one that has been made by some doctors in the west to justify not treating gays, not providing abortions and (though rarely spoken aloud) not treating people of colour. ANd don't think you are the onlty one capable of strong hatreds- political, racial or 'lifestyle nor are you the only one who believes their hatreds are justified while the other guys' aren't. .

The means don't always justify the ends- no matter how deeply felt, the cause. When a social movement that envisions a better a better world adopts that principle (the means justifies the ends) all too often it not only loses all credibility- but becomes worse than the social order it replaces.

[blaze]

Just to clarify- I understand the points that H90 is making- and his refusual to sell to someone in Nazi uniform- ok. My comments above were directed at any who would attempt to justify the refusal by a medical practitioner to offer treatement solely on the basis of personal prejudice- whether that prejudice is political or otherwise. Personal convictions, no matter how strongly felt have no place in determining who gets medical treatment- (nor, as H90 says) should economic status.

[frodo]

Do you honestly mean read ALL 68 pages of mostly inane responses at 1 go just to prove yet another TV poster correct ? WOW , some of the egos on here are so large i question some of you can scratch your own ear when you have an itch , this is supposed to be a forum of opinions as well as perceived 'Correctness .Should it be of such earnest requirement of yourself , you take the time to peruse and extricate all your neccessary PROOF and re-post it for all and sundry to read , a-la 'Scourse please' etc by the minimal respondents who require total and absolute confirmation .

It matters not one iota in the relevance or outcome of this (or any other )thread , Thais are THE ONLY ONES with their form of relevance that matters when we arrive at yet another thread on what 'THEY' should or should not have done in any given situation , please , as Thai like as you might wish to be , you are simply a mere visitor in some-one elses country , it would be nice if you could learn to settle for this very obvious FACT , no scourse given .

Not really, dumball. I've only stated my own feelings and thoughts on this thread. Some posters feel at liberty to post more of an "attack" on other posters if they disagree and nothing more. In short they add nothing to what the thread is actually about. I really don't have the time, nor care, for that matter, to prove what I did or did not write. If I don't agree with others, I don't agree. Certainly, I don't attack them or make false claims against them. If others get a joy out of misquoting people (flaming) or get their jollies stating people wrote things which they did not write (AKA trolls), so be it.

You're right, at the end of the day it is the Thai people who will decide the outcome. Though we've never met, I assure you, I am not living here to be Thai-like. Even if I did, it would be my business, and really none of yours. I've setteled these FACTS as you call them, years ago. By the way, I am not a mere visitor here, however, that's for another thread and won't be discussed here.

[frodo]

PAD, DAAD, Govt, Opposition urged to talk

By The Nation

The Political Development Council will invite all parties in the conflicts to a talk to try to avert more political bloodshed, a prominent academic said Sunday.

Borwornsak Uwanno, secretarygeneral of the King Prajadhipok Institute, said the council, which has been set up under the requirement of the Constitution, would invite the government, the opposition, the People's Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship to send their representatives to a talk.He said all sides needed to discuss how to find a solution for the country.

Continued here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/12...cs_30085850.php

At last! A step in the right direction, and hopefully, they can find some sort of solution. It is never too late.

[Plus]

How long are you going to talk about that doctor?

Waste of time, really. He can refuse treating people in non-emergency cases for any number of reasons. He chose to make his political stand known. Good on him. He apologised afterwards - even better.

People attacking him assume that he refused to save policeman's life. In reality the policeman could have demanded service of superior quality, not asked for help. We don't know.

What if the said policeman demanded a special treatment that is not available to general public? I understand that Chula hospital has also some very expensive wards, not everthing there is free.

In that case the doctor has every right to refuse taking money from such a patient and sent him to join the plebs downstairs and wait in line just like everyone else.

Maybe it didn't happen that way, but for all we know, it could have. I, for one, don't think the policeman was in the Social Security/30 baht line.

>>>

YH, I didn't form my opinion on Nick on that article alone. Honestly, I don't see why everyone was so excited about it anyway. He has offered nothing new, imo.

[h90]

Just to clarify- I understand the points that H90 is making- and his refusual to sell to someone in Nazi uniform- ok. My comments above were directed at any who would attempt to justify the refusal by a medical practitioner to offer treatement solely on the basis of personal prejudice- whether that prejudice is political or otherwise. Personal convictions, no matter how strongly felt have no place in determining who gets medical treatment- (nor, as H90 says) should economic status.

not that I disagree, just some disturbing ideas to add:

I think no serious injured will ever rejected (everyone has in mind that they let someone die).

More disturbing: Most of the hospitals would anyhow reject an honest policeman as he wouldn't be able to pay there from his low salary.

Most probably these hospitals would have happily treat Pol Pot, Saddam Husein, Bush or any other terrible person as long as they can pay.

But would have kicked out the 70 year old grandmum who were nice all her life, no one would give her the medication which costs 100.000 Baht per day to cure the cancer.

[h90]

PAD, DAAD, Govt, Opposition urged to talk

By The Nation

The Political Development Council will invite all parties in the conflicts to a talk to try to avert more political bloodshed, a prominent academic said Sunday.

Borwornsak Uwanno, secretarygeneral of the King Prajadhipok Institute, said the council, which has been set up under the requirement of the Constitution, would invite the government, the opposition, the People's Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship to send their representatives to a talk.He said all sides needed to discuss how to find a solution for the country.

Continued here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/12...cs_30085850.php

At last! A step in the right direction, and hopefully, they can find some sort of solution. It is never too late.

Talks won't help. The positions are so extreme that there is no compromise possible.

[Thai at Heart]

PAD, DAAD, Govt, Opposition urged to talk

By The Nation

The Political Development Council will invite all parties in the conflicts to a talk to try to avert more political bloodshed, a prominent academic said Sunday.

Borwornsak Uwanno, secretarygeneral of the King Prajadhipok Institute, said the council, which has been set up under the requirement of the Constitution, would invite the government, the opposition, the People's Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship to send their representatives to a talk.He said all sides needed to discuss how to find a solution for the country.

Continued here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/12...cs_30085850.php

At last! A step in the right direction, and hopefully, they can find some sort of solution. It is never too late.

Talks won't help. The positions are so extreme that there is no compromise possible.

Well hope springs, but also unfortunately dies eternal

[citizen33]

Maybe it didn't happen that way, but for all we know, it could have. I, for one, don't think the policeman was in the Social Security/30 baht line.

I accept that some private hospitals that have contracted into these schemes may informally operate differential treatment. But in terms of what has been formally agreed, what are these separate lines? In the United States, Medicare patients do not have a separate line: it is just that the payer is the public insurance scheme rather than an alternative private one, and this pays at rates which the hospital has agreed to accept. Aren't you letting the hospitals off the hook by implying that differential treatment is the norm? If they have taken the money they should deliver the service according to the contract and that does not involve separate lines. Neither of the schemes you mention is charity care. My theory is that most who think as you do are Americans, largely because they (wrongly) believe that private health care is the world-wide norm.

[bulmercke]

If Somchai doesn't announce his resignation on channel NBT this evening (8.30pm) then watch out for trouble at tomorrow's PAD protest ouside National Police Head Quarters on Rama 1 Road tomorrow at 10.00 am.

[dumball]

PAD, DAAD, Govt, Opposition urged to talk

By The Nation

The Political Development Council will invite all parties in the conflicts to a talk to try to avert more political bloodshed, a prominent academic said Sunday.

Borwornsak Uwanno, secretarygeneral of the King Prajadhipok Institute, said the council, which has been set up under the requirement of the Constitution, would invite the government, the opposition, the People's Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship to send their representatives to a talk.He said all sides needed to discuss how to find a solution for the country.

Continued here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/12...cs_30085850.php

At last! A step in the right direction, and hopefully, they can find some sort of solution. It is never too late.

You actualy believe that a meeting between self centered individuals with their own format for success will sit down and discuss the other persons point of view , does not the events of the last several weeks prove to you they are not prepared to listen to a point of view unless it comes via ECHO ?

I have changed my perspective of the way you (do not) think , thus my way of thinking that this whole thread will change NOTHING , AND I STILL THINK YOU ARE A VISITOR NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN IN tHAILAND .

[animatic]

Just to clarify- I understand the points that H90 is making- and his refusual to sell to someone in Nazi uniform- ok. My comments above were directed at any who would attempt to justify the refusal by a medical practitioner to offer treatement solely on the basis of personal prejudice- whether that prejudice is political or otherwise. Personal convictions, no matter how strongly felt have no place in determining who gets medical treatment- (nor, as H90 says) should economic status.

What seems to be repeatedly over looked is:

This was a threat against the future use of excessive force.

The 'action' never even took place.

It was COMPLETELY Hypothetical, as have been my arguments on the subject.

The Doctor didn't say any police were being denied treatment.

He said in the future if the police use these same bloody tactics,

don't expect him to help put them back together.

This is a threat to refuse treatment to people mistreating others,

and as a group rather than as individuals. After seeing the carnage

caused by the inept misuse at the very best, or worse malign indifference

to the protesters, I can see why he might be VERY upset with Police as a class.

But he never actually denied one police person any care.

The violence has stopped... for the moment.

I think the same horror this doctor was motivated by, has for the moment slowed things down

and the next meetings of opposing sides will be hopefully more circumspect.

We can but hope.

[bulmercke]

BREAKING NEWS - BANGKOK POST -

PM calls on unity

(BangkokPost.com) - Prime Minister and Defence Minister Somchai Wongsawat on Sunday called on all sides to reconcile and work together to solve the national problems and be prepared for the potential economic crisis.

Giving a public announcement on the state-run National Broadcasting Services of Thailand (NBT) television channel on Sunday at 8.40pm, Mr Somchai said it is alright for people with different ideas to hold gatherings, but they must be within the legal framework so they would not violate other people’s rights.

He said the government is democratically elected by the Thai people, and the government has to be responsible for its people and the parliament. He added that the government adheres to the constitutional monarchy.

The premier said he felt sorry for the violent confrontations between the police and the PAD supporters on October 7, in which more than 400 people were injured and two people were killed. He said the government has set up two working bodies responsible for investigating the violent activities and aiding the injured from the riot.

Besides the problems relating to conflicting ideas and politics, the prime minister called on the Thai people to reconcile and be prepared for another crisis – the global economic crisis.

According to Mr Somchai, although the crisis began in foreign countries, it could hit Thailand’s economy significantly and it would affect local trade, labour and prices of agricultural products.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Too little.....too late.....tomorrow's PAD protest outside Police National Head Quarters on Rama 1 Road will be another flash point......

Edited October 12, 2008 by bulmercke

[dumball]

You are in Chiang Mai ... turn on your TV, look at the news online etc

Sorry but obviously your knowledge of the world and the hippocratic oath are lacking

Tell us more about what color Tshirt I should wear tmw!

Oh boy, it seems that almost everyone that remotely disagrees with you is lacking in knowledge.

I wonder why you continue to be that arrogant. It surely doesn't enhance your arguments.

Plenty of people that disagree with me have knowledge and some even know how to apply it ... then there are those that try and make statements of fact with no supporting evidence.

When oh when will you quit ? "Then there are those who try " . Oh to have attained the ultimate pinacle of arrogance , so condescending "Some even know how to apply it " You sir are a baffoon in your own right , you have , in all honesty , achieved a level of inanity far beneath the mundane , the less educated , from your ivory tower perched high in a la-la land of your own creation .

I am sorry sir , i digress somewhat in my enthusiasm , the point was the hippocratic(or was that hippocritical) oath , promises are made to be broken , or is that translated to our own way of thinking or direction in a certain set of circumstances ?

In the end , we are or at least , or should be , appreciated as only human and not perfect as you proscribe .

[bulmercke]

Somchai says House dissolution, resignation not solution now - THE NATION -

Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat announced on TV Sunday night that he is willing to resign or dissolve the House if it could bring the country out of the political crisis.

But he said he was not sure that House dissolution or his resignation would really solve the problem.

He urged all sides in the conflicts to help find a clear solution, which is acceptable to all.

"I am willing to say goodbye but we need to find a solution first. We have to turn to one another and cooperate to solve the problems for the sake of unity and peace so that we can stay together under the grace of His Majesty the King," the prime minister said.

>>>>>>>>

Big PAD rally outside Thai Police Head Quarters tomorrow will surely be the final nail in the coffin for the Somchai 'lame-duck' government -

[bulmercke]

Rally at police headquarter postponed : Sondhi - THE NATION -

PAD's leader Sondhi Limthongkul said the decision to delay was made after PAD leders learnt that cremation of Angkana Pradub-avut will be conducted on Monday.

People's Alliance for Democracy decided to postpone their rally in front of Police Department from Monday for a few days.

Cremation of Metee Chartmontri will be done on Tuesday.

So the rally in front of the Police department will be delayed for a few days so that protesters and people can attend the funerals of both who were killed in the October 7 brutal violence on Oct 7.

[Thanh-BKK]

And he's hiding behind the good, old "democratically elected" BS. I've seen part of the speech on television.

And what i've also seen is a HUGE crowd of red-t-shirted people gathering at Sanam Luang. DAAD.

Will they clash tonight or are they gonna wait a bit longer this time 'round?

This show ain't over yet.

Thanh

[sriracha john]

Government supporters cheer during a rally Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok, Thailand. Thousands of government supporters rallied as anti-government protesters planned a demonstration Monday at the police headquarters in Bangkok to protest alleged police brutality during clashes last Tuesday.

Associated Press

Government supporters take part in military-style drills Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok Thailand.

Associated Press

[sriracha john]

And he's hiding behind the good, old "democratically elected" BS. I've seen part of the speech on television.

And what i've also seen is a HUGE crowd of red-t-shirted people gathering at Sanam Luang. DAAD.

Will they clash tonight or are they gonna wait a bit longer this time 'round?

This show ain't over yet.

Thanh

We were posting simultaneously. I believe DAAD is getting some more tactical warfare lessons in first.

[sriracha john]

Forensic experts point to the severity of injuries caused by tear gas.

"The tear gas was a Chinese make which can cause injuries like this," said Pornthip Rojanasunan, Director of the Central Institute of Forensic Science.

Such injuries do not happen with Australian or US-made tear gas, she added, although she is awaiting a police sample to confirm her findings.

Pornthip was originally called in by the army to investigate PAD claims that the police used bombs, but is now doing so for the independent National Human Rights Commission of Thailand.

She told AFP that unlike the Western brands, the Chinese canisters explode when they hit an object before releasing their tear gas.

"I don't think the police should use this type of tear gas, because it's dangerous," she said.

"The way they shoot at the people, they aim the gun directly at people so there could be serious injury."

- AFP / 2008-10-12

[h90]

And he's hiding behind the good, old "democratically elected" BS. I've seen part of the speech on television.

And what i've also seen is a HUGE crowd of red-t-shirted people gathering at Sanam Luang. DAAD.

Will they clash tonight or are they gonna wait a bit longer this time 'round?

This show ain't over yet.

Thanh

We were posting simultaneously. I believe DAAD is getting some more tactical warfare lessons in first.

Yes old fox Chamlong is teaching them right now about brain-power vs. muscle.

The DAAD is paid for making troubles tomorrow.

They can't beat the PAD at the cremation (but who knows???).

So it might be difficult for them to delay it and specially VERY expensive.

They could attack tonight, but I don't if they are smart enough for that.

Edit: they can't attack the government house because it is not easy to take.

Edited October 12, 2008 by h90

[animatic]

PAD, DAAD, Govt, Opposition urged to talk

By The Nation

The Political Development Council will invite all parties in the conflicts to a talk to try to avert more political bloodshed, a prominent academic said Sunday.

Borwornsak Uwanno, secretarygeneral of the King Prajadhipok Institute, said the council, which has been set up under the requirement of the Constitution, would invite the government, the opposition, the People's Alliance for Democracy and the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship to send their representatives to a talk.He said all sides needed to discuss how to find a solution for the country.

Continued here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/12...cs_30085850.php

At last! A step in the right direction, and hopefully, they can find some sort of solution. It is never too late.

You actualy believe that a meeting between self centered individuals with their own format for success will sit down and discuss the other persons point of view , does not the events of the last several weeks prove to you they are not prepared to listen to a point of view unless it comes via ECHO ?

I have changed my perspective of the way you (do not) think , thus my way of thinking that this whole thread will change NOTHING , AND I STILL THINK YOU ARE A VISITOR NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN IN tHAILAND .

Well no one EVERY thought the irish would talk

or that some of those guys would ever even enter the same room without shots being fired,

but it happened. These guys are over money/power, not religion there is a better chance.

The shared profit motive usually trumps philosophy... sadly.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

I wonder if the police is going to launch a "crackdown" or whatever against those "pro government" people there, who, rather obviously, prepare for a battle? Including weapons already available. They may not be "breaking the law" just yet, but they are going to, i can guarantee that. And the police, by stopping them NOW, could prevent that.

Or do more people have to die first?

Remember, dear reader, i am pro PAD but AGAINST violence, regardless from which side.

Somchai, be a good guy and lead by example. Step down, dissolve house, let the opposition appoint a caretaker government and let there be elections. If you leave your PPP now and join the Democrats you may even be PM again and this time round people gonna love you. Don't wait for more fighting, injuries and deaths. And have your phone blocked for calls from UK.

(Somehow, having seen him on television, i like the guy. but he's on the wrong team (Thaksin's))

Right now on television (channel 3): tests with various tear-gas-grenades and projectiles. The ones they used during that crackdown really detonate like bombs, left craters in the football field they tested them on.

Best regards....

Thanh

[animatic]

Government supporters cheer during a rally Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok, Thailand. Thousands of government supporters rallied as anti-government protesters planned a demonstration Monday at the police headquarters in Bangkok to protest alleged police brutality during clashes last Tuesday.

Associated Press

Government supporters take part in military-style drills Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok Thailand.

Associated Press

Does this not resemble war without the army involved?

War conducted by zealot amateurs, because the profesionals know better.

PAD is not without culpability, but DAAD seems to be LOOKING for war,

and a level of violence above Tuesday's. Is it to be the mad taxi drivers,

versus the grandmothers protected by dutiful sons?

Bets on whether this discussion meeting is boycotted by DAAD,

they seem to think the gain something on the attack.

I can NOT imagine what though. If the army moves I suspect they will

lock down BOTH freelance groups and keep them apart.

And then demand more dialog.

Edited October 12, 2008 by animatic

[Plus]

Maybe it didn't happen that way, but for all we know, it could have. I, for one, don't think the policeman was in the Social Security/30 baht line.

I accept that some private hospitals that have contracted into these schemes may informally operate differential treatment. But in terms of what has been formally agreed, what are these separate lines?

I don't know the exact situation at Chula but I do know they have different level facilities.

Why don't we turn to ever helpful Thaivisa for some information:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Chula-Hospital-t159763.html

the rates and services mentioned in that thread are surely not available to 30 baht scheme patients.

"Last inpatient at Chula was March 2002 and price was 1,300 baht per night plus 200 baht Thai food and 200 baht nursing service."

[jdinasia]

You actualy believe that a meeting between self centered individuals with their own format for success will sit down and discuss the other persons point of view , does not the events of the last several weeks prove to you they are not prepared to listen to a point of view unless it comes via ECHO ?

I have changed my perspective of the way you (do not) think , thus my way of thinking that this whole thread will change NOTHING , AND I STILL THINK YOU ARE A VISITOR NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN IN tHAILAND .

Ummmm not according to my visa or investments here

Then again I live here, not Cambodia I am constantly amazed by the folks that are not in Thailand that think they rate so high in both knowledge and worthiness

[Thai at Heart]

Government supporters cheer during a rally Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok, Thailand. Thousands of government supporters rallied as anti-government protesters planned a demonstration Monday at the police headquarters in Bangkok to protest alleged police brutality during clashes last Tuesday.

Associated Press

Government supporters take part in military-style drills Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok Thailand.

Associated Press

Does this not resemble war without the army involved?

War conducted by zealot amateurs, because the profesionals know better.

PAD is not without culpability, but DAAD seems to be LOOKING for war,

and a level of violence above Tuesday's. Is it to be the mad taxi drivers,

versus the grandmothers protected by dutiful sons?

Bets on whether this discussion meeting is boycotted by DAAD,

they seem to think the gain something on the attack.

I can NOT imagine what though. If the army moves I suspect they will

lock down BOTH freelance groups and keep them apart.

And then demand more dialog.

I wholeheartedly agrees and I am on the other side of the fence.

Someone should stop this. I don't see the army doing anything other than mounting a coup if it escalates beyond control.

[thaigene2]

Government supporters cheer during a rally Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok, Thailand. Thousands of government supporters rallied as anti-government protesters planned a demonstration Monday at the police headquarters in Bangkok to protest alleged police brutality during clashes last Tuesday.

Associated Press

Government supporters take part in military-style drills Sunday Oct. 12, 2008 in Bangkok Thailand.

Associated Press

Does this not resemble war without the army involved?

War conducted by zealot amateurs, because the profesionals know better.

PAD is not without culpability, but DAAD seems to be LOOKING for war,

and a level of violence above Tuesday's. Is it to be the mad taxi drivers,

versus the grandmothers protected by dutiful sons?

Bets on whether this discussion meeting is boycotted by DAAD,

they seem to think the gain something on the attack.

I can NOT imagine what though. If the army moves I suspect they will

lock down BOTH freelance groups and keep them apart.

And then demand more dialog.

Animatic - I'm not looking to argue with your post...but look at the photos. The red-clad pro-democracy people are inside at a rally - very peaceful - not menacing anyone. If those people, in that number, (tens of thousands) had done that in the streets (like the PAD do at will) the army puppets (supported by their friends in higher places) would have moved on them in FORCE. In other words, if they had taken to the streets, they would have been run off or shot down like dogs and you know it.

Why hasn't that happened to the people of PAD who are high-jacking democracy? Not Thai "Ethnic" looking like the guys in red? Don't smirk - you know why. Because one-person-one-vote doesn't count in Thailand. It's hi-so influence that matters..or Chinese merchant parents and yellow t-shirts (on the front lines)? Is that what it boils down to?

Now as for the black-clad former police whatever they are - what to make of that? Well if the regular police and army won't defend the will of the majority of the people of thailand (who voted democractically) against the wishes of the elite minority who brow-beat the authorities into submission, then I guess it takes a posse of the willing to regain the right of the majority to rule. Is that it?

Show Time.

Edited October 12, 2008 by thaigene2

[sriracha john]

plus 200 baht Thai food and 200 baht nursing service."

The professional nurse gets the same daily expenditure as a bowl of khao tom, a plate of khao pad, and a couple of glasses of char yen... :D

[jdinasia]

Thai@Heart did you miss out on September 2 and the SoE that followed immediately after?