Cambodia Threatens War With Thailand Within 24 Hours

[orang37]

How surreal can it get ? Possible answer (?) : as surreal as political rhetoric needs to be to distract, seduce, divert, channel, sublimate, opiate, hallucinate, mesmerize, mis-lead, rationalize, confuse, mystify, obscure, inspire ... ad nauseam ... ad infinitum.

A few legless, or a few corpses, is a small price to pay such politically useful diversions ?

o:37~

[phibunmike]

This continuing dispute is a missed opportunity for Thailand and Cambodia in particular, and S.E. Asia in general.

There is an increasing awareness that Asian philosophy is a valid alternative to western philosophy; and I mean philosophy in the broadest sense, to include political, social, domestic and other arenas. This increasing awareness is not confined to the west, but is also apparent in the east. Some Asian thinkers are now promoting alternatives to western ideas of democracy, economics and human rights, instead of simply aspiring to emulate the west. Consider, for example, the thinking of Lee Kuan Yew, Deng Xiao Ping, or Kishore Mahbubani.

Thus we have a marvelous opportunity for two Buddhist countries to show the west an alternative approach to border disputes. Instead of arguing over lines drawn in the dirt, and seeking the adjudication of the UN courts, these two countries could offer a uniquely Asian solution: "let's share". Let the border divide on either side of the temple; or draw the border with a thick pen on maps of the area, and agree that the area is either owned by both - or neither. Let South East Asia lead the way in resolving such disputes, in a uniquely Buddhist or Asia context. Then both countries would win the dispute, and the rest of the world would look on in admiration.

One lives in hope.

Mike

[DegenFarang]

Ok so I will ask the question I always ask when this stuff happens:

'Will this effect my ability to eat at McDonalds, drink on Soi Cowboy, pick up BKK uni girls or use the internet?'

dam_n, you seem to be a caricature of a fat, uneducated, lowlife farang.

You're right, nothing is more important in life than eating at Mc Donalds and drinking at soy Cowboy.

Thanks for you're contribution to that discussion.

it's soi, not soy

and i was making a joke. i just meant will this impact the day to day life of an average farang. as the conflict is over obviously not. but people seem to get so worked up when this stuff happens. well i've been here three years now and not one time has anything in my life changed one iota from any of the conflicts, coups or other problems the thai government has had. other than friends and family back home all asking me if i was ok that is. knock on wood, i hope that never changes.

Edited October 14, 2008 by DegenFarang

[Jai Dee]

Democrat leader calls on government to remain committed to negotiations with Cambodia

The leader of the Democrat party has expressed his opinion that the government should push on with negotiations in the Thai-Cambodian border dispute as an affirmation of commitment to agreements.

Democrat party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva (อภิสิทธิ์ เวชชาชีวะ) stated today that the government and relevant agencies involved in the Thai-Cambodian border dispute must continue with their negotiations. He asked that both countries remain committed to previously made agreements to use bilateral means to resolve their conflict.

Mr. Abhisit continued to say that despite the political atmosphere, Thai people are still determined to use peaceful means to uphold their rights. He remarked that even with the impending Cambodian ultimatum looming, the government must holdfast to negotiations.

Source: National News Bureau of Thailand - 14 October 2008

[johwel]

How is this solution(s)- Why not destroy the whole temple instead of lives or just devide it into two halves, one for Thailand, one for Combodia?! Funny how it shows when people think material things are worth more than life.

[LuckyFive8888]

Ok so I will ask the question I always ask when this stuff happens:

'Will this effect my ability to eat at McDonalds, drink on Soi Cowboy, pick up BKK uni girls or use the internet?'

you are just another f00l. they just dress up like uni girls but they are also from cowboy/nana.

[mdechgan]

I never liked how the UN or international court gets involved in border disputes. I hate how some lawyer in UK and U.S. decides where the border in Cambodia and Thailand lie. I also disagreed on UNESCO. Preah Viharn should never have been listed until borders were resolved so stuff like this never happens. But its now listed and and the border is yet unresolved. They should have just had it listed interim until the border was resolved which would force the Cambodians to resolve the border dispute to get it listed.

Oh I forgot our last government already signed off with the Cambodians.

[phaethon]

BBC news says it's all fine, thank god!

They're Buddhists, outside god's jurisdiction.

[DegenFarang]

The decision by the UN in June to list Preah Vihear as a Unesco World Heritage Site reignited lingering nationalist tensions over the issue.

what a sad unintended consequence of that decision. this will probably greatly politicize naming future World Heritage Sites.

[Tod]

Ok so I will ask the question I always ask when this stuff happens:

'Will this effect my ability to eat at McDonalds, drink on Soi Cowboy, pick up BKK uni girls or use the internet?'

dam_n, you seem to be a caricature of a fat, uneducated, lowlife farang.

You're right, nothing is more important in life than eating at Mc Donalds and drinking at soy Cowboy.

Thanks for you're contribution to that discussion.

it's soi, not soy

and i was making a joke. i just meant will this impact the day to day life of an average farang. as the conflict is over obviously not. but people seem to get so worked up when this stuff happens. well i've been here three years now and not one time has anything in my life changed one iota from any of the conflicts, coups or other problems the thai government has had. other than friends and family back home all asking me if i was ok that is. knock on wood, i hope that never changes.

Oh sorry, I didn't know the discussion was about "the impact in the day to day life of an average farang" I tought it was a political discussion...my bad.

But since I just understand now, thanks to Degenfarang, the real subject of that topic; in my "average farang life" case, it affects me because of the continuous news flash on BBC, CNN, TV5, Aljazeera stating that theres massive riots in the streets of Bangkok (which is clearly false) and that Thailand and Cambodia are on the eve of war (which seems to be false as well) all that added to the economic crisis, and me beeing an "average farang" who happens to work in the tourism industry in Thailand. I feel concerned.

[DegenFarang]

Ok so I will ask the question I always ask when this stuff happens:

'Will this effect my ability to eat at McDonalds, drink on Soi Cowboy, pick up BKK uni girls or use the internet?'

you are just another f00l. they just dress up like uni girls but they are also from cowboy/nana.

all of them? even the ones walking around near chula? usually if they speak fluent or near fluent english i give them some credibility

and me beeing an "average farang" who happens to work in the tourism industry in Thailand

ya that sucks. i think you also should take offense to people constantly making much ado about nothing then. when tourism plummets over these domestic issues it is out of unbased fear for the most part. people are scared they are going to get shot or something when there are never any problems. but even i can't help but have my heart skip a beat when i see email from Thai Visa that says 'cambodia to declare war on thailand'. sensationalism and fear mongering to sell newspapers and get people to watch TV news broadcasts (and read expat forums )

Edited October 14, 2008 by DegenFarang

[balo]

The war is over !

Now lets get back to work , all of you!

[george]

Update:

Thai surprise at Cambodia's ultimatum on border disputes

BANGKOK: -- Thailand was taken by surprise by Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen's remarks related to the border disputes between the two countries when he issued an ultimatum to Thailand to withdraw its troops from a disputed area near the ancient Khmer Preah Vihear temple by midday Tuesday (October 14), according to the Thai foreign ministry spokesman.

In response to questions from the media, Director-General Tharit Charungvat of the Department of Information of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement that Thailand is surprised by the remarks by the prime minister of Cambodia issuing an ultimatum to Thailand to move its military personnel out of the area adjacent to the Temple of Preah Vihear temple and threatening the use of force.

Mr. Tharit said the threatened Cambodian action is counter to the spirit of neighbourliness and the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation in Southeast Asia (TAC), especially between fellow ASEAN member countries. It also contradicts international norms of settling bilateral issues peacefully, as enshrined in the United Nations Charter, he said.

Mr. Tharit said Thailand has always tried to resolve its boundary issues with Cambodia peacefully through bilateral negotiations which have achieved satisfactory progress thus far.

In this connection, the military of both sides have agreed to convene a special meeting of the Regional Border Committee (RBC) next Tuesday (October 21), preceded by a working level meeting on Wednesday (October 15).

Under its Ottawa Convention obligations regarding land mines, Thailand has been demining the area adjacent to Preah Vihear – an area to be surveyed and demarcated by the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission on Demarcation for Land Boundary (JBC), set up under a Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries in 2000.

De-mining there, he said, was a necessary and urgent issue for ensuring the safety of visitors, local residents and military personnel who pass through the area.

The urgency of the issue was underscored when two Thai paramilitary rangers lost their legs after stepping on landmines in the area on October 5 in Thai territory as demarcated in the Franco-Siamese Treaty of 1904. He said Thailand is now investigating whether the landmines in the area are old mines or recently deployed in violation of the Ottawa Mine Ban Convention.

"If Cambodia does resort to the use of force in accordance with its so-called ultimatum, Thailand will have to exercise its right of self-defence as provided for under the Charter of the United Nations, in order to protect our de-mining personnel and Thailand's sovereignty and territorial integrity," he said.

Thailand has always called for and remains committed to resolving its boundary issues with Cambodia peacefully through bilateral consultations under the many frameworks already in place, Mr. Tharit said.

As agreed by the Thai and Cambodian foreign ministers meeting in Siem Reap and Cha-am on July 28 and August 19, he said, both countries committed to exercise "utmost restraint" to avoid any armed confrontation.

This was reaffirmed by Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Sompong Amornvivat to the Cambodian side during his visit there on Monday (October 13).

Thailand has strictly observed all commitments and agreements and expects Cambodia to do the same, he said.

-- TNA 2008-10-14

[vahack]

two pissant countries

fighting over a pile of dirt

fight over something real - like oil lol

a couple points,

- Its called war anytime one country attacks another, even if its isolated to a single rai of land. It won't be a "full border" war or even a fully engaged conflict. There will be a couple hundred rounds shot back and forth on a hillside. If that.

- Cambodia probably wants to start banking on its hard-earned UNESCO listing and get some tourists in there. These things are motivated by money, not the rights to some pile of dirt.

- Thai politics is a joke. Few Thais even knew about Preah Vihar before the politicians used it to fight each other. How many Thais have been there? Most Thais don't even leave their village in their lives - except the once in a lifetime trip to the "big city".

- Keep it up, Thailand, I love this dollar exchange rate ! (B34.5 lately)

[george]

THAI-KHMER BORDER TENSION

Thailand will act in self - defence : Cambodia told

BANGKOK: -- If Cambodia resorts to use of force, Thailand will have to exercise its right of self-defence as provided under the Charter of the United Nations : Thai FM

Tensions along Thai and Cambodian border have flared up again on Tuesday after Thailand refused to follow Cambodia's threat to withdraw its troops from an area near Preah Vihear Temple.

Thai Foreign Ministry's statement said, ""If Cambodia does resort to the use of force in accordance with its so-called ultimatum, Thailand will have to exercise its right of self-defence as provided under the Charter of the United Nations."

Cambodia's Prime Minister Hun Sen issued the ultimatum on Monday, saying Bangkok could face large-scale conflict if Thailand failed to abide by his threat.

He issued the threat after Thai Foreign Minister Sompong Wongsawat met with his Cambodian counterpart Hor Nam Hong in a border meeting in Phnom Penh on Monday. "The Veal Intry area is the dead or alive point for us "The situation at the Veal Intry area is too hot. They have to remove tonight or tomorrow. If they don't remove from the Veal Intry area, war will be waged," he said.

Meanwhile Thai Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat on Tuesday chaired an urgent meeting to discuss about the matters Cambodia's threat to start war if Thailand did not evacuate its troops from an area near the Preah Vihear Temple.

Somchai reiterated that it is not possible for the Thai troops to withdraw from the area. "It is like you are asked to retreat from your own house," he said.

Thai premier quoted Sompong as saying that he was surprised that Hun Sen made such a threat after the meeting. "During the meeting, Prime Minister Hun Sen seemed to have no problems on the matters. It was surprising that he came out of the meeting room to say that," Sompong said.

Sompong told the meeting in Phnom Penh that Thailand will not have any problem to withdraw if Cambodia did the same to avoid any confrontation.

Asked whether he will telephone Hun Sen about the issue, Somchai said he will look into details and surrounding circumstances before deciding the next step.

-- The Nation 2008-10-15

[george]

BREAKING NEWS:

Thai military decides to retain troops in disputed area

BANGKOK: -- The Thai military decided Tuesday to retain troops in the disputed area near the Preah Vihear temple despite an ultimatum by the Cambodian prime minister for a pullout of Thai troops, the Army spokesman said.

Army spokesman Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd said the Army chief, Navy chief, Air Force chief and Supreme commander met and resolved not to pull out troops from the disputed area.

He said the three armed forces affirmed their readiness to deploy both troops and weapons to defend Thai territory.

-- The Nation 2008-10-14

[Tod]

So, which one is true, The Nation or Reuters?

[PTYstefan]

this is a copy from bangkok post,

Thai troops will remain at the Thai-Cambodian border area, and they are fully ready to protect the country’s sovereignty, Thai army spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd said at a press conference on Tuesday afternoon.

According to the Royal Thai Army’s statement, it will not withdraw its troops from the disputed border because the territory belongs to Thailand.

Earlier Tuesday, Brig-Gen Yim Pin, the Cambodian army chief, claimed that all Thai soldiers had retreated approximately a kilometre from the disputed border area.

“The three armed forces of Thailand together with their reinforcements are prepared for the potential armed confrontations in the border area to defend the country’s sovereignty. The Supreme Commander Songkitti Jakkabatra will report the army’s information to Prime Minister and Defence Minister Somchai Wongsawat,” Col Sansern said.

He said the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will determine on the return of Thai people living in Cambodia.

The Thai armed forces have already coordinated with each other to bring back Thai people from Cambodia, once the army received the government’s order, Col Sansern said.

The army spokesman still believed that negotiations between both countries should be a better alternative to settle the border row.

Thailand will not launch an offensive first, but if Cambodia encroaches into Thailand’s territory, the Thai army is ready to confront any incident to protect the country’s sovereignty, Col Sansern concluded.

( first the pad in bangkok, now a WAR, what is happening to thailand. all this is affecting the travel in thailand.)

[RAZZELL]

So, which one is true, The Nation or Reuters?

The BBC :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7668657.stm

RAZZ

[Thai at Heart]

this is a copy from bangkok post,

Thai troops will remain at the Thai-Cambodian border area, and they are fully ready to protect the country’s sovereignty, Thai army spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd said at a press conference on Tuesday afternoon.

According to the Royal Thai Army’s statement, it will not withdraw its troops from the disputed border because the territory belongs to Thailand.

Earlier Tuesday, Brig-Gen Yim Pin, the Cambodian army chief, claimed that all Thai soldiers had retreated approximately a kilometre from the disputed border area.

“The three armed forces of Thailand together with their reinforcements are prepared for the potential armed confrontations in the border area to defend the country’s sovereignty. The Supreme Commander Songkitti Jakkabatra will report the army’s information to Prime Minister and Defence Minister Somchai Wongsawat,” Col Sansern said.

He said the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will determine on the return of Thai people living in Cambodia.

The Thai armed forces have already coordinated with each other to bring back Thai people from Cambodia, once the army received the government’s order, Col Sansern said.

The army spokesman still believed that negotiations between both countries should be a better alternative to settle the border row.

Thailand will not launch an offensive first, but if Cambodia encroaches into Thailand’s territory, the Thai army is ready to confront any incident to protect the country’s sovereignty, Col Sansern concluded.

( first the pad in bangkok, now a WAR, what is happening to thailand. all this is affecting the travel in thailand.)

It is astonishing how the Thai media can have produced the fastest military climb down and climb back up in history. What the hel_l is going on? Did they stand down or not?

[eggomaniac]

In 1962, following a significant dispute between Thailand and Cambodia over ownership of the temple, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague awarded the ownership to Cambodia. < from Wikipedia

I don't know how they could make that decision? The only natural way to get to the dang place is from Thailand. (Well Camobodia RECENTLY built a road, but how did it go up those cliffs?)

Also, it does not appear to be a Khmer temple!

"Preah Vihear is unusual among Khmer temples in being constructed along a long north-south axis, rather than having the conventional rectangular plan with orientation toward the east."

This part gets to me.>> "The court proceedings focused not on questions of cultural heritage or on which state was the successor to the Khmer Empire but on technicalities of the border demarcation work early in the century and Thailand's subsequent treatment of the resulting map."

a misprint??? >>>

In 1904, Siam and the French colonial authorities ruling Cambodia formed a joint commission to demarcate their mutual border. In the vicinity of the temple, the group was tasked by the two governments to work under the principle that the border would follow the watershed line of the Dângrêk mountain range, which places Preah Vihear on the Thailand side. In 1907, after survey work, French officers drew up a map to show the border’s precise location. The resulting map, which was sent to Siamese authorities, showed Preah Vihear as being on the Cambodian side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preah_Vihear_..._over_ownership

[PTYstefan]

if more of this happens all the tourist will be afraid to travel to thailand. and also people will not want to come.

if thailand and cambodia are going to make a WAR, who will build all the hotels and the houses in pattaya,

mst of them also come from cambodia,

[Meridian007]

Update:

Thai surprise at Cambodia's ultimatum on border disputes

..."If Cambodia does resort to the use of force in accordance with its so-called ultimatum, Thailand will have to exercise its right of self-defence as provided for under the Charter of the United Nations, in order to protect our de-mining personnel and Thailand's sovereignty and territorial integrity," he said.

Thailand has always called for and remains committed to resolving its boundary issues with Cambodia peacefully through bilateral consultations under the many frameworks already in place, Mr. Tharit said.

Thailand has strictly observed all commitments and agreements and expects Cambodia to do the same, he said.

-- TNA 2008-10-14

<golfclap> Wow, that is some good spin right there! de-mining personnel? LOL!

This is the cause of the big turnaround. They found a way to spin it so that there seems to be a valid non-military reason to have troops there. Well done Mr. Thaksin! You have some amazing spin doctors working for you!

Setting the stage for his dramatic "healing" of all our ills!

[Foggy Bottom]

There'd be a lot less wars if politicians had to lead the troops into battle.

Check your history books - the above statement actually goes against the trend - wars have been far less frequent, though far longer sustained and more devastating, since national leaders stopped leading the troops.

when was the last time thailand was in a war internally or with neighbours???? i don't mean border skirmishes......i mean real brutal ones...

while no doubt better armed the big question is can untested thai soldiers stomach the brutalites of war and cope hardships in the jungles better than their foes???

if it does happen..it's going to be bloody machine guns jungle warfare......

It could be argued the border defence against Burmese incursions is just a long running low key war, it has certainly provided frequent exercise in "live fire" response and defence, and as with the Feb/Mar 2001 incident at Mai Sai / Doi Mae Salong - it also provided good practise of mass rapid reaction deployment.

The last major sustained conflict within Thai soil was probably the anti-communist campaign in the North during the 1960's & 70's when the Thai forces recruited the refugee remnants of the KMT (now usually referred to as the "Chin Haw" hill tribes - a total misnomer - and the success of that campaign gave the KMT exiles citizenship of Thailand. Remember too they have deployed peacekeeping forces to Iraq, Afghanistan, and East Timor - all of which have been rotated at least once, thus have "dirty combat" experienced troops.

Don't be misled - Thailand will use infantry and support footsloggers if needed, but they also have extensive artillery and airstrike capability. Remember too the area around the temple is still infested with landmines (as is a lot of the Thai-Cambodian border zone) therefore the preference will be for avoiding close-in combat - by both sides. Once it degrades to artillery duels, civilian targets won't be exempt (as per Mae Sai 2001) whether by accident or intent. Even in Afghanistan, the US have shown that despite their ultra high-tech weaponry, civilians are guaranteed to be collateral damage in an escalated conflict.

The other question to be watched, as has been shown many times historically, is that with the Thai government and military distracted elsewhere, will the Burmese factions seek another round of incursions into Thai territory and will they also step up the drug caravans? The Thai border is so long that it's impossible to lock down 100%, even at the best of times. If the Preah Vihear situation escalates, there'll likely be a thinning of defence along the western and northern border, how much so depends on the specialist units needed in Isaan and the South East border areas. Remember that those in the North are fully combat ready and at least skirmish experienced.

Also working against the Cambodians is that the Khmer Rouge have been combat-retired for at least 10 years. It'll take a while to bring them back up to speed. Transport infrastructure on the Cambodian side is also a long way behind that of the Thai side - quite simply this means the Thais can deploy and move units far faster and more efficiently than can the Cambodians. Tie that in with better surface and air transport equipment (and more of it) on the Thai side, and nothing short of a 100% mobilisation and assault could give the Cambodians an advantage - the Thais would know of that long before it was finalised for assault, and be ready to receive it.

If in any doubt as to the Thai capability, remember they are the most populous nation in mainland South East Asia, and therefore have the largest personnel resources to draw upon - both currently serving, and demobbed "veterans". Plus the sheer volume of paramilitary police units provides an immediate rapid response reinforcement too - either to the conflict zone, or to release combat troops from guarding passive border regions.

All the above does not mean it would be an entirely one sided fight - it depends a lot on the strategic and tactical planning ability of the Cambodian military chiefs. It also depends quite a lot on the stance that would be taken by Laos and Vietnam, including whether they gave assistance and/or neutrality guarantees, thus freeing or tying down Cambodian military resources on those borders.

Overall, my personal opinion (and it is mine to give, just as yours is yours to give) is that Cambodia would be foolish to open an all-out war with Thailand, even if Thailand did not call upon its developed nation allies to assist. However, perhaps it is nothing more than a cry to the UN to intervene?

Gaz

[allned]

This is just a pretty blatant way to promote nationalism and break the will of the PAD.

Spot on, this is a show to change the will of the Thai people, not unlike what the American government did with 9/11. PM, and the Thaksin cabal are desperate.

Hey nothing will happen - it never does, speak to any Thai, and they will tell you its nothing - they will retreat from the area in dispute for sure - no one wants a war, and especially Thailand.

anyway wait it out - they are probably already on the move !!!!!!!!!1

[eggomaniac]

In 1962, following a significant dispute between Thailand and Cambodia over ownership of the temple, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague awarded the ownership to Cambodia. < from Wikipedia

I don't know how they could make that decision? The only natural way to get to the dang place is from Thailand. (Well Camobodia RECENTLY built a road, but how did it go up those cliffs?)

Also, it does not appear to be a Khmer temple!

"Preah Vihear is unusual among Khmer temples in being constructed along a long north-south axis, rather than having the conventional rectangular plan with orientation toward the east."

This part gets to me.>> "The court proceedings focused not on questions of cultural heritage or on which state was the successor to the Khmer Empire but on technicalities of the border demarcation work early in the century and Thailand's subsequent treatment of the resulting map."

a misprint??? >>>

In 1904, Siam and the French colonial authorities ruling Cambodia formed a joint commission to demarcate their mutual border. In the vicinity of the temple, the group was tasked by the two governments to work under the principle that the border would follow the watershed line of the Dângrêk mountain range, which places Preah Vihear on the Thailand side. In 1907, after survey work, French officers drew up a map to show the border's precise location. The resulting map, which was sent to Siamese authorities, showed Preah Vihear as being on the Cambodian side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preah_Vihear_..._over_ownership

Just Google Earth at 14 23 33 North and 104 40 48 E , with Borders on and look at the funny little slice the border takes up into the high lands.

[Plus]

Thais are not threatening with war, it's entirely Cambodian idea, or maybe Hun Sen's. Was a rather silly diplomatic move on his part - right when the Foreign Ministers are meeting eachother to diffuse border tensions.

[toptuan]

Another example of this is when the Republicans in the US Staged the attacks of 911 so they could create Fear...

Reckless, irresponsible, and flaming statements such as these have no place in Thai Visa.com

[SamuiJens]

I believe what we have here is a Mexican standoff!

[allned]

So this will mean that they will close the border?

Holiday to Cambodia not possible?

i would give it a miss at the moment, not that I am sure there will be any major problems, but you could have hassle getting back across the border - or be subject to a long delay.

it will be over with within a few days, and I doubt much will happen, infact the Thai's are probably pulling out as we speak