Thai Immediacy Mentality

[lifeisrandom]

I didn't know what else to call this post. but it has to do with the mentality of some Thais who seem to live only in the moment.

I was walking along a soi in Cha am today and came across a few men working outside a metal shop. They had a small production run going, some steel tube weldments.

The welder was doing the all-too-common .. welding with a pair of mirror sunglasses rather than a proper helmet. After completing my business and walking back to my car, I stopped for a moment. The welder was taking a break and his eyes looked terrible. We was rubbing them and clearly in some pain. I talked to him for a minute in my poor Thai and told him that I once ran a shop that had welders, and know how painful flash burns can be.

I spoke a bit direct .. "You know you should be using a helmet." He nodded,

"If you keep welding this way, pretty soon you won't be able to see [the puddle]."

He nodded again, kind of friendly and knowing, yet at the same time with a look of resignation.

I looked back once to see him striking an arc .. nothing except the sunglasses.

I understand that welding helmets are hot .. I have welded a time or two. I have also suffered some flash burns.

I just wonder if these guys really believe that they will somehow avoid the inevitable. Or if they feel so pressed to risk the health of their eyes. It's really pretty sad.

I wonder if I should go buy a helmet and give it to him.

if he give him a helmet he will probably sell it.

lol.

[Soutpeel]

singapore is not really a tax haven anymore, is it?

they wanted me to fill out an IRS tax form for the us gov last time i was there.

That because it was forced on them by the US goverment, so cant blame Singapore for that, believe it was the typical bully boy tactics on the part of GWB.

[EvilDrSomkid]

And if you think Thailand is bad, you come over here in Viet Nam. We've had seven, yes seven, fatalities on site that were reported (God alone knows how many were just shipped out in a dumster full of soil). We've had the deputy prime minister criticising us for our push on safety and accused us of turning Vietnamese workers into wimps.

This has little to do with immediacy, "take it today for it may not be there tomorrow". This is to do with lack of education, nobody had taught the welder about the risk of arc eye, and plain old economics. If this welder demands his boss supply the mask/goggles his boss will just fire him and get in someone who'll do the job without. Safety is an issue you only hear politicians spout on about after a disaster and, sadly, this is also partially true in the west.

I have hear about that actually. My group is also active on the DQ refinery complex. Accidents all the time.

The shop I work at in Sri Racha, ALL the welders and grinders use PPE. Especially the welding helmets. I have told the foremen to get the boys to wear hard hats several times. Work safety is a bit of a joke at times. Just like on the roads here.

I did ask management here several tiomes whe nwas the last fatal accident. Never, was the reply. Last LTI, never had them.

Only thing that happenes a lot is crap in the eyes.

But I have seen those rough shops where they weld up fences and gates. Proper jigs and safety precausions? My dtuut!

TIT

[GuestHouse]

But I have seen those rough shops where they weld up fences and gates. Proper jigs and safety precausions? My dtuut!

TIT

This attitude is based on the aspect of human nature that says- 'look at that other fool' you'd never catch me doing that.

Pause for a moment and think.

Industrial and public safety became and issue in the UK during the 1970s with the enactment of the 'Health and Safety at Work Act' - This act of parliament came about after long arguments and lobbying by trades unions and industry - It was a cultural change challenging the whole perception of safety and how accidents may be prevented and legislating wide ranging duties of care and responsibility.

Observations on Thai industrial safety practice are easy to make - remembering what UK safety was like before the Health and Safety at Work Act is a little more difficult.

If you think that your culture was more safety conscious at that time than the Thais are now I say you are kidding yourself.

Road Safety is mentioned too.

There again those critical of the Thais are perhaps forgetting that until the early 1970s there was virtually no road safety campaigns in the UK, the real change coming with the Anti Drink Drive Laws and the seat belt campaign.

The seat belt campaign 'Clunk Click Every Trip' is worth looking at because it demonstrates how the governments of the day understood that it was not going to be easy to change the British perceptions of safety and get drivers to take the extra safety precaution of 'Belting Up'. Sir Jimmy Saville (Perhaps one of the finest Englishmen alive) was chosen to front that campaign because he was seen a someone who could persuade rather than lecture people into changing behaviour (Contrast this with today's attitudes of make it illegal and come down with the force of the law - Or, I would add the attitude of many hear of pointing the finger at the Thais and proclaiming TiT).

So a change of attitude to safety by consensus and only after long efforts to educate people on the risks and necessary precautions.

In both cases, industrial and road safety these changes to the Safety Culture in the UK came about after sustained campaigns to get safety laws in place (sustained campaigns to water down safety laws) and after huge expenditure of effort and cash in educating employers, employees and road users.

The fact that people in/from the UK understand and comply with safety measures is an indication of the success of the campaign - that they see their understanding as part of their culture is a double tick - Safety Culture in the UK has been changed.

But has it - How many UK Citizens raised on this culture of safety are pointing the finger at Thais over safety yet are themselves willing to drive a little too fast, have a few too many drinks than they know is safe just because TiT?

[Heng]

Yeah, I like how folks not planning ahead in terms of local immigration, property law, and their own personal finances is the fault of the Thai government.

What has this to do with the individual Thai's concept of immediacy?

hint: It has something to do with pots and kettles.

[Heng]

Kinda like the legions of idiots in other countries who went for that subprime mortgage and are now sucking pavement.

And now the rest of us are paying for their mistake. 750 billion dollars worth

Stupid fockers

All the more reason why tax havens like Singapore, St. Kitts, Vanuatu, etc. keep growing in capital mass.

singapore is not really a tax haven anymore, is it?

they wanted me to fill out an IRS tax form for the us gov last time i was there.

It is when you have more than one citizenship. My Singapore accounts are all opened as a Thai national.

banker: "You're Thai? You sound like you're an ABC who grew up in the US."

Heng: "That's because I am."

banker: "Ah, okay, great."

[klikster]

This is to do with lack of education, nobody had taught the welder about the risk of arc eye, and plain old economics. If this welder demands his boss supply the mask/goggles his boss will just fire him and get in someone who'll do the job without.

I'll take a pretty strong position in disagreement of "nobody had taught the welder about the risk of arc eye". As I said in my OP, he was sitting there in obvious pain. His eyes were watering and bloodshot. He had a grimace and was rubbing his eyes. Some things may need to be "taught". For others, experience trumps any other form of education

Your second statement may or may not be true.

Edited October 17, 2008 by klikster

[klikster]

Yeah, I like how folks not planning ahead in terms of local immigration, property law, and their own personal finances is the fault of the Thai government.

What has this to do with the individual Thai's concept of immediacy?

hint: It has something to do with pots and kettles.

You obviously missed the point of my OP. Reading helps, thinking helps even more.

[klikster]

I wonder if I should go buy a helmet and give it to him.

only if it comes with a brain....

Not all do. Apparently, yours didn't.

[Gravelrash]

At the dental hospital recently, the dental assistants take the x-rays. One young girl didn't wear any shielding and just stood in the room with me. Obviously a few times doesn't matter, but how long of doing this before the cancers started. I explained to her the long term implications, and next time she was out of the way. I hope not just for my approval but her survival.

[Heng]

Yeah, I like how folks not planning ahead in terms of local immigration, property law, and their own personal finances is the fault of the Thai government.

What has this to do with the individual Thai's concept of immediacy?

hint: It has something to do with pots and kettles.

You obviously missed the point of my OP. Reading helps, thinking helps even more.

Then there's hope for you yet.

[elkangorito]

This so called "Thai Immediacy" is something I consider to be quite normal behaviour in a human.

Why think about "tomorrow"? Why worry about this?

Ok, for most of us westerners, "thinking about tomorrow" is second nature. But why? Is there really a guaranteed "tomorrow"? Of course, nobody has a crystal ball, with which they can predict any future. As such, there is clearly no "guaranteed" tomorrow. This is simple logic, not rocket science!

With regard to the "personal safety" thinking of some people, the first thing to remember is that education is quite obviously the first line of attack.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

This statement sums it up.

With regard to Thai people, one must always remember that Thai culture "is in force". I stress this word FORCE since Thai culture is indoctrinated to many Thais from an early age. This culture erratically mixes an ideal of life (Buddhism - which is now, sadly, a religion) with a prescribed racial lifestyle. This is obviously done to suit the culture moreso than the religion.

I can clearly see positives & negatives in this vein.

Positives.

1] If someone YOU KNOW dies, be sad but get on with your life as quickly as possible. If someone dies whom you don't know, ask for the lottery numbers. Let's face it, you didn't know them, the world is currently over populated & if you can gain something (from their death) without resorting to absolute manipulative greed, you have not hurt anybody.

2] Reduced stress of the individual due to a "no tomorrow" attitude.

3] Fewer people rushing to prevent accidents, diseases etc (any cause of death) thus leading to a reduced population. The world may be able to go back to its "homeostasis" if this attitude exists amongst most other people in the world (as opposed to trying to save every single human from any type of death).

Before I launch into the negatives, I'd like to say that I don't think that Thai people behave the way they do according to world population numbers or the "feel bad" mentality (that the west adopts). I do believe that they behave according to the amount of cultural indoctrination they have received, whether they have lived outside of Thailand or not or whether they have simply decided to "think freely", or not. Sadly, there do not appear to be many Thai "free thinkers" in any given Thai community.

Negatives.

1] Respect. Thai Culture raves on about "respect" endlessly. A simple question would be, "Do you respect your children enough so that you wear a crash helmet when riding motorcycles, in order for your children to not become homeless, should you be killed (or injured) in an accident?"

2] Another question, "If you really feel that you SHOULD help your friends, why would you do things that can possibly harm you (and others) & therefore render yourself useless (or less effective) for your friends?"

3] As the current indoctrination stands ("all Thais unite" blah blah), why would any Thai do anything to reduce/limit their ability to support their country (eg die or become incapacitated)?

4] "Looking good" is all important in Thailand. The ego reigns supreme. There appears to be little room for any type of thought that does not follow an egotistical road. Thus, "peer group pressure" will be very powerful. And since "lower class people" are not permitted to question "higher class people", how can anyone "advance" unless the "high class" decide to do so?

5] "Loss of face" is yet another stumbling block. "Loss of face" is all about ego & has little to do with reality yet the reality of a death in Thailand seems to be devoid of "loss of face". This is an oxymoron.

My opinion?

I really couldn't care less about "tomorrow", since I have absolutely no way of predicting the future. With regard to hope...I've given up. Basically, I believe that all life is without hope. This was one of the best things that I did in my life...get rid of the "hope" factor. I find myself not wanting & not being depressed about many things.

It's nice to have "dreams" but I don't confuse dreams with reality or hope.

Life for me is a "fun thing", to do with as I wish (not as somebody else wishes). It is not programmable, not forecastable, not predictable & totally free. To those who aspire to indoctrinate me with clap trap....good luck.

[Gaccha]

So a change of attitude to safety by consensus and only after long efforts to educate people on the risks and necessary precautions.

In both cases, industrial and road safety these changes to the Safety Culture in the UK came about after sustained campaigns to get safety laws in place (sustained campaigns to water down safety laws) and after huge expenditure of effort and cash in educating employers, employees and road users.

The fact that people in/from the UK understand and comply with safety measures is an indication of the success of the campaign - that they see their understanding as part of their culture is a double tick - Safety Culture in the UK has been changed.

But has it - How many UK Citizens raised on this culture of safety are pointing the finger at Thais over safety yet are themselves willing to drive a little too fast, have a few too many drinks than they know is safe just because TiT?

It's such a shame that this Helf'n'safety has infected the British nation. The numbing nothingness of a life wrapped in cotton wool, with nothing but a nasty nanny state to tell you how to act, how to behave, to be vigorous in ensuring you do not slip into old habits. To ensure you do not live at all.

Why live 95 years of tedious drudgery in a land where holding a street party would probably be banned for the ever-present danger of existing, when you can live to the full without a Health'n'Safety offical on your back.

Lets regain our freedom. Lets rise against those who demand we wear motorcycle helmets, lets sweep away their safety goggles, and enter the jungle of life, and fight the good fight!!

[Flatouthruthefog]

I my experience everything in Thailand is done with only the moment in mind. Nothing is done to last or with any consideration for the long term.

Yes, and while I have sincere respect for Buddhism we must keep in mind that the Lord Buddha taught people to disregard 'yesterday', because it cannot be changed, also to disregard tomorrow because no-one knows what it will bring.

In my view, this is the foundation of the attitudes being discussed here.

[bonobo]

This so called "Thai Immediacy" is something I consider to be quite normal behaviour in a human.

Why think about "tomorrow"? Why worry about this?

Ok, for most of us westerners, "thinking about tomorrow" is second nature. But why? Is there really a guaranteed "tomorrow"? Of course, nobody has a crystal ball, with which they can predict any future. As such, there is clearly no "guaranteed" tomorrow. This is simple logic, not rocket science!

With regard to the "personal safety" thinking of some people, the first thing to remember is that education is quite obviously the first line of attack.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

This statement sums it up.

With regard to Thai people, one must always remember that Thai culture "is in force". I stress this word FORCE since Thai culture is indoctrinated to many Thais from an early age. This culture erratically mixes an ideal of life (Buddhism - which is now, sadly, a religion) with a prescribed racial lifestyle. This is obviously done to suit the culture moreso than the religion.

I can clearly see positives & negatives in this vein.

Positives.

1] If someone YOU KNOW dies, be sad but get on with your life as quickly as possible. If someone dies whom you don't know, ask for the lottery numbers. Let's face it, you didn't know them, the world is currently over populated & if you can gain something (from their death) without resorting to absolute manipulative greed, you have not hurt anybody.

2] Reduced stress of the individual due to a "no tomorrow" attitude.

3] Fewer people rushing to prevent accidents, diseases etc (any cause of death) thus leading to a reduced population. The world may be able to go back to its "homeostasis" if this attitude exists amongst most other people in the world (as opposed to trying to save every single human from any type of death).

Before I launch into the negatives, I'd like to say that I don't think that Thai people behave the way they do according to world population numbers or the "feel bad" mentality (that the west adopts). I do believe that they behave according to the amount of cultural indoctrination they have received, whether they have lived outside of Thailand or not or whether they have simply decided to "think freely", or not. Sadly, there do not appear to be many Thai "free thinkers" in any given Thai community.

Negatives.

1] Respect. Thai Culture raves on about "respect" endlessly. A simple question would be, "Do you respect your children enough so that you wear a crash helmet when riding motorcycles, in order for your children to not become homeless, should you be killed (or injured) in an accident?"

2] Another question, "If you really feel that you SHOULD help your friends, why would you do things that can possibly harm you (and others) & therefore render yourself useless (or less effective) for your friends?"

3] As the current indoctrination stands ("all Thais unite" blah blah), why would any Thai do anything to reduce/limit their ability to support their country (eg die or become incapacitated)?

4] "Looking good" is all important in Thailand. The ego reigns supreme. There appears to be little room for any type of thought that does not follow an egotistical road. Thus, "peer group pressure" will be very powerful. And since "lower class people" are not permitted to question "higher class people", how can anyone "advance" unless the "high class" decide to do so?

5] "Loss of face" is yet another stumbling block. "Loss of face" is all about ego & has little to do with reality yet the reality of a death in Thailand seems to be devoid of "loss of face". This is an oxymoron.

My opinion?

I really couldn't care less about "tomorrow", since I have absolutely no way of predicting the future. With regard to hope...I've given up. Basically, I believe that all life is without hope. This was one of the best things that I did in my life...get rid of the "hope" factor. I find myself not wanting & not being depressed about many things.

It's nice to have "dreams" but I don't confuse dreams with reality or hope.

Life for me is a "fun thing", to do with as I wish (not as somebody else wishes). It is not programmable, not forecastable, not predictable & totally free. To those who aspire to indoctrinate me with clap trap....good luck.

I can't say I agree with all you write, especially with what you describe as your own opinions. However, at least you were able to succinctly and rationally express yourself, and I have to repsect your stated beliefs. I do like your doing what you wish, however. Too many people get caught up in trying to meet others' expectations in them and end up unhappy in life.

[klikster]

Lets regain our freedom. Lets rise against those who demand we wear motorcycle helmets, lets sweep away their safety goggles, and enter the jungle of life, and fight the good fight!!

And fry our retinas? What an enlightened approach.

[klikster]

My opinion?

I really couldn't care less about "tomorrow", since I have absolutely no way of predicting the future. With regard to hope...I've given up. Basically, I believe that all life is without hope. This was one of the best things that I did in my life...get rid of the "hope" factor. I find myself not wanting & not being depressed about many things.

It's nice to have "dreams" but I don't confuse dreams with reality or hope.

Life for me is a "fun thing", to do with as I wish (not as somebody else wishes). It is not programmable, not forecastable, not predictable & totally free. To those who aspire to indoctrinate me with clap trap....good luck.

So .. do you have a visa? If so, why?

[elkangorito]

Lets regain our freedom. Lets rise against those who demand we wear motorcycle helmets, lets sweep away their safety goggles, and enter the jungle of life, and fight the good fight!!

This is sensible thinking.

I my experience everything in Thailand is done with only the moment in mind. Nothing is done to last or with any consideration for the long term.

Yes, and while I have sincere respect for Buddhism we must keep in mind that the Lord Buddha taught people to disregard 'yesterday', because it cannot be changed, also to disregard tomorrow because no-one knows what it will bring.

In my view, this is the foundation of the attitudes being discussed here.

The pure "common sense" of this idea is indisputable. Oops! I forgot that about 80% of the worlds population lack this free ability called "common sense".

I can't say I agree with all you write, especially with what you describe as your own opinions. However, at least you were able to succinctly and rationally express yourself, and I have to repsect your stated beliefs. I do like your doing what you wish, however. Too many people get caught up in trying to meet others' expectations in them and end up unhappy in life.

Firstly, you don't "have to" respect my beliefs at all. They are, after all, my beliefs.

From what I have noticed from my life in Australia, far too many people are more concerned about what others think. This somehow reflects the way things are done here in Thailand in that appearances are more important than reality. Examples;

"I only went to the party to "keep him/her happy".

"I forced my step-children to not quit their university degrees because their mother had slaved hard to give them this opportunity (even though mum ignored what the kids really wanted to do & even though I am not their father)."

"If I don't vote <whatever>, others will dislike me."

"If I don't go to church or have a religion, others will not like me."

"If you actively don't like the monarchy, you will be sent to gaol."

"You don't love the <insert monarch here> as much as I do, therefore you are a lesser person."

To me, there is a clear distinction between emotional blackmail (ego) & truth. When "reality" surfaces, my guess is that most folk won't like it. Thai "immediacy" is a "cover up" of reality. It is not the fault of the anybody in particular but is the fault of a populous who happily "follow the leader".

The strange thing is that one does not need to cover up any truth. It is a pity that many people lazily accept the rules for truth instead of following their "real" ideals.

In other words, Thai immediacy is not a very truthful thing. I believe that most Thai people will follow this "immediacy" rule because they are too afraid to do otherwise.

Realising all of this, it seems a bit strange to suddenly revert to ideals that could be based upon Buddhism after rigidly following the rules of an authoritarian culure...and visa versa.

Ego ego ego. When will it end?

Edited October 17, 2008 by elkangorito

[Misplaced]

Yeah, I like how folks not planning ahead in terms of local immigration, property law, and their own personal finances is the fault of the Thai government.

What has this to do with the individual Thai's concept of immediacy?

There's a difference between the concept of Thai immediacy and western concept of immediacy?

Edited October 17, 2008 by Misplaced

[dumball]

My opinion?

I really couldn't care less about "tomorrow", since I have absolutely no way of predicting the future. With regard to hope...I've given up. Basically, I believe that all life is without hope. This was one of the best things that I did in my life...get rid of the "hope" factor. I find myself not wanting & not being depressed about many things.

It's nice to have "dreams" but I don't confuse dreams with reality or hope.

Life for me is a "fun thing", to do with as I wish (not as somebody else wishes). It is not programmable, not forecastable, not predictable & totally free. To those who aspire to indoctrinate me with clap trap....good luck.

So .. do you have a visa? If so, why?

So you have given away all of your money and wordly possessions , because they are obviously not a neccessity with 'No tomorrow' in sight , a typical Bi-polar reaction to the incessant demands of an unenlightened world that presses heavily on your shoulders .You do not confuse dreams with reality , because you are living in a dream where there is no reality , you abandoned hope because you feel you have no hope , basically because you feel 'Your life' has no hope . You are not wanting because you are depressed about many things , mostly what your life has become , hence this overpowering feeling there is no tomorrow , because you do not want to face another tomorrow . Yes , it is a fun thing to do with 'Your' life as you wish , you are not predictable or totally free , you are responsible to the world around you , been there , done that . No , this is not clap-trap , this is a reality you need to face up to NOW because your next step could be the horrific slide into the slimy pit of total and true depression , from which it is seriously very difficult to claw your way out of without serious help . I read all of the signs , ask me about it , it is a place i never want to visit in my life again , but the signs and confession are all there .

I truly feel concerned for your welfare , yes you will laugh , but that is your privilage alone , i hope you have a good friend or family for support in the coming times of your life .

[Payboy]

I wonder if I should go buy a helmet and give it to him.

only if it comes with a brain....

Not all do. Apparently, yours didn't.

thats the reason i'm still here...

and obviously yours came with a rose tinted visor....

Edited October 18, 2008 by Payboy

[Gary A]

I have to admit that my Thai wife has much more patience than I do. I'm pretty much an impulse buyer but my wife will tell me that I can wait a week or two and think about it. She plans way ahead. She often says that next year is better and we can wait.

As far as the welding, I have a good auto darkening helmet. I hired a Thai welder for a big job and you guessed it, he wore sunglasses. After my complaining, he finally used my old flip glass welding helmet but only while I was watching.

[Tod Daniels]

I have found the lower down the socio/economic/education level people are the more the immediacy mentality is hard wired in and the more difficult it is to try to instill forethought or forward thinking or planning for the future.

In my experience;

Give a thai a fish; he eats for a day. Give him a fishing pole; he'll sell it to buy whiskey, and expect you to give him a fish like you did yesterday.

[Heng]

Give me a few years and I'd have a tuna cannery.

[klikster]

Yeah, I like how folks not planning ahead in terms of local immigration, property law, and their own personal finances is the fault of the Thai government.

What has this to do with the individual Thai's concept of immediacy?

There's a difference between the concept of Thai immediacy and western concept of immediacy?

Since the OP and the intent of this thread is about " .. the concept of Thai immediacy ..", any ".. western concept of immediacy" is irrelevant. Of course some posters will try to hijack a thread and spin it toward some personal agenda or prejudice.

[Heng]

Must have touched a nerve.

[LivinLOS]

Sir Jimmy Saville (Perhaps one of the finest Englishmen alive)

You mean hushed up child molester Jimmy Saville ??

Seen the Loius Theroux weekend ?? Or read the 'Sarah Cornley' allegations ??

[Maigo6]

Thai Immediacy mentality ?

I wanna know the answer to this, and I wanna know it now !!!!

[sylviex]

The strange thing is that one does not need to cover up any truth. It is a pity that many people lazily accept the rules for truth instead of following their "real" ideals.

That's a very interesting point. "The Emperor Has No Clothes" !

Since most know the truth about why you don't really want to attend so-and-so's party, or often do, why pretend, why go through the rituals of pretence ?

Oddly, too, Thai culture is supposed to be one which values individuality very highly. In some ways, I do see this, but in many others it's patently not the case. (I will try to find a reference)

The power of indoctrination, I suppose.

"Form over substance" can be seen Asia-wide, I think (feel free to contradict if any countries don't fit),

but Thailand seems to have perfected the art form.

[endure]

We, in the West, get safety drilled into us from day 1. I remember science lab when we had to wear all kinds of safety garb and if we didn't we were out on our butt. Here, they think it's OK to just tell people what they should do, but not why. Safety takes a long time and it takes explanation. I doubt this guy was taught how to weld by a professional welder, who could explain this stuff.

I remember chemistry lessons at my school (in Oz) where the teacher threw large chunks of sodium into water and blew holes in the ceiling