Pm Somchai Will Not Resign

[henryalleman]

I note that theres a nastly little incident brewing up at the border with Cambodia that isn't quoted as a reason to stay on, nor the economic crisis. Oh well in light of the story below it looks like it will be a very reluctant coup.

Silent coup.

By Wassana Nanuam, Pradit Ruangdit and Nattaya Chetchotiros

Army chief Gen Anupong Paojinda has stated flatly for the first time that Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat should resign to take responsibility for the Oct 7 clashes between police and People's Alliance for Democracy demonstrators.

In an hour-long interview on Channel 3 on Thursday, Gen Anupong reiterated responsibility must be taken because of public unease over what happened on Oct 7 when police fired teargas canisters to break up the protest outside parliament.

"If the government gave the order, it has to take responsibility. If the people cannot tolerate it, there will be chaos and the matter will not be put to an end," he said.

The rally tried unsuccessfully to prevent the government from declaring its policy in parliament. At the end of the day, two people were dead and more than 400 were injured, some critically.

Since then, the prime minister has come under heavy criticism for overreacting to the protest.

Asked what he would do if he were the prime minister, Gen Anupong said: "To be honest, I would resign. Why would I stay on? The country is in ruins. It will not hold on.

"I am not saying this to pressure the government to resign, but it must take responsibility. No government can survive after the spilling of people's blood, because society can never accept this. There's no point in staying on when the country has already been damaged."

The army chief sat side by side with Supreme Commander Gen Songkitti Jakkabatr, navy chief Adm Kamthorn Phumhiran, air force leader ACM Itthaporn Supawong, and police chief Pol-Gen Patcharawat Wongsuwan during the programme in a show of unity.

Gen Anupong continued to rule out a coup, saying it would not solve the political strife. The armed forces leaders and the public were not in favour of it.

He defended the army's role in the Oct 7 incident, saying it was not aware of the government's order to police to disperse the demonstrators.

He said he regretted the violence and would have opposed the police measures if he could.

A source close to Gen Anupong said the army chief wanted Mr Somchai to step down, not to dissolve the House, to end the political turmoil.

"He does not want a coup. So, the prime minister must resign," said the source.

The army chief's remarks could catch the prime minister off guard.

Earlier on Thursday Mr Somchai, also the defence minister, was greeted with a warm welcome when he officially assumed his duties at the Defence Ministry.

The armed forces leaders also followed him over to Muang Thong Thani to listen to his policy only to later appear on television and demand that he hand in his resignation.

Gen Anupong's statement prompted the People Power party to call an urgent meeting. Former deputy leader Yongyuth Tiyapairat was said to be the only one who saw Mr Somchai, a source in the party said.

Strategies that would be employed include ignoring the call from the army leader and forcing the armed forces to stage a coup so it could then be a target of criticism, or dissolving parliament, the source said.

Another source close to deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, said Mr Thaksin had recommended three candidates to succeed Mr Somchai if he decides to stand down.

They are Foreign Minister Sompong Amornvivat, Deputy House Speaker Apiwan Wiriyachai and Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana leader Gen Chettha Thanajaro.

Democrat executive member Sathit Wongnongtoey said the opposition party strongly opposed a military coup or any other attempt to resolve the current political crisis unconstitutionally, including the setting up of a national government.

Source Bangkok Post www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=131470

Regardless what you may think about the present government, PM or political situation, in a genuine democracy its unthinkable that an army general ventilate his political opinion in public. And even worse, urge the PM to resign.

I can only conclude that Thailand has no clue about what democracy really means. Take for instance the fact that PAD says that 75 of the MP's must be appointed, and not elected. PPP is an incestuous gang of self appointed people who only strive their own politica ambitions and benefits.

Non of them has an eye for the real needs of the country.

STUPID,STUPID, STUPID.

Very strange opinion. In which country an army general is not allowed to have an own opinion specially after the government killed some people?

He told if he would be premier he would resign.

PAD never told that 75 (also not 70 or 50 %) MUST be appointed. As well they told several times that these "appointed" one are also elected.

That is just propaganda from the government to discredit the PAD. The original documents were published on TOC a while ago and told things very clear.

Please inform me in witch genuine democratic country a general can publicly declare that an PM have to resign. In a genuine democracy the army is completely absent in the political debate or political deccision making. In a genuine democracy an parlementary debate will take place, and probably the minsiter responsible for the debacle have to resign.

I guarantee you if this happend in an EU country, Australia or Canada to name only a few, disciplinary action will be taken against the army chief and he have to resign. Furthermore can you name me a democratic counbtry wher the military have his is own banks, TV stations and is shareholder in privat company's. In a genuine democracy the chieff of the army is the minister of defence who is always an civillian, who is under parlementary controle.

btw tryed to visit website of ministery of defence and I get the warning for trojans, worms and phissing, and other virusses.

PS can you give me the website wher I can find the correct information about the 75 elected or appointed MP's

[plachonubon]

.

I can only conclude that Thailand has no clue about what democracy really means. Take for instance the fact that PAD says that 75 of the MP's must be appointed, and not elected. PPP is an incestuous gang of self appointed people who only strive their own politica ambitions and benefits.

Non of them has an eye for the real needs of the country.

STUPID,STUPID, STUPID.

I totally agree....both sides are as bad as each other.

I also think that many posters here don't realise how much PAD hate foreigners in Thailand!!

[SomchaiCNX]

It looks like all the Falangs on this thread are Pro PAD.

No, I'm not.

They, PPP and PAD, are both extreme parties and both are not Farrang or even human friendly at all.

The only point they do not agree about is, who should run (ruin) the country.

Anyway this country is run by the Chinese not the Thai, that's for sure.

Most of those in parlement have less Thai DNA, after many generations, than my children with my Thai wife.

They just use the old technic that worked all over the world, you keep them poor (religion) and I keep them stupid (education).

Care to offer some proof for these claims?

Show me the receipt, is that what you ask?

OK I get it, you are not sure these kids are mine?

[Crushdepth]

that a minority of Thais refuse to accept the will of the majority of Thais in selecting their rulers. This minority will never accept anyone the Majority selects. How many times does Thailand have to try to select a leader before the minority accepts the fact that they are destroying their country and appearing as a bunch of hooligans to the civilized world? Thailand must enforce the rule of law even if it means imprisoning a significant number of the radical extremists. Anarchy will consume Thailand if the rule of law does not prevail.

Thailand is enforcing rule of law - and it means imprisoning a significant number of corrupt politicians. Getting elected does not entitle politicians to break the law but it will be a while before Thai politicians come to grips with their new operating environment.

Radical extremists? I bet the PAD protest is a lot more civilized and peaceful than protests in *your* country!!!

[jdinasia]

The PAD rallies (other than when the police kill them or the PPP pays the UDD to attack them) are less violent that sporting events in many countries!

[Bryan in Isaan]

PAD supporters are not paid....telling these lies again and again does not make it true

The going rate is 400+ baht per day as I have been told by part time PAD-protesters.

which is a blank lie as many time proofed.

We know at least 100 PAD people from poor to rich, 24/7 there are just sometimes, from North, South, East, Central and everyone want to know where to pick up the money. I guess they would even give you half if you can tell them where to pick it up, as they are there since month that is a huge amount.

etc......

This is off topic but it keeps coming up over and over again in every thread. As we can see from hundreds of posts, everyone knows someone who was paid to attend either an anti-government or a pro-government rally. Then that anecdotal evidence is used to try to discredit whichever side the poster disagrees with.

The fact is, payment happens but is probably not a deciding factor. In cases where there is greater expense, more money is exchanged, for example, where people have to travel. If Bangkok protesters travel to an up country rally, they need money from somewhere, either from a sponsor or from their own resources if they are financially well off. If upcountry people travel to Bangkok to protest, they need money for bus fare, food, transportation, lost wages, etc. In some cases, especially for poor people, attending a rally might be profitable - whichever group is paying them at the time.

I suspect most people attend political rallies because they want to be there.

[WISteve]

Regardless what you may think about the present government, PM or political situation, in a genuine democracy its unthinkable that an army general ventilate his political opinion in public. And even worse, urge the PM to resign.

I can only conclude that Thailand has no clue about what democracy really means. Take for instance the fact that PAD says that 75 of the MP's must be appointed, and not elected. PPP is an incestuous gang of self appointed people who only strive their own politica ambitions and benefits.

Non of them has an eye for the real needs of the country.

STUPID,STUPID, STUPID.

Well said.

Thailand is a democracy in it's infancy.

We should all encourage them in all ways possible to abide by the law of the land and deal with decention the way a true representative government would do it.

We should not be surprised when it doesn't happen that way.

~WISteve

[jdinasia]

Bryan in Issan

"The fact is ....."

that everything following that statement is opinion.

[Bryan in Isaan]

Bryan in Issan

"The fact is ....."

that everything following that statement is opinion.

I attempted to summarize everything I have read about the topic and interpret it objectively. OK, it's an opinion. Spank me. I will choose my words more carefully next time.

Am I wrong? Are other posts fact, rather than opinion? OK JDinasia, come out with it - what is the correct interpretation?

Edited October 18, 2008 by Bryan in Isaan

[h90]

PAD supporters are not paid....telling these lies again and again does not make it true

The going rate is 400+ baht per day as I have been told by part time PAD-protesters.

which is a blank lie as many time proofed.

We know at least 100 PAD people from poor to rich, 24/7 there are just sometimes, from North, South, East, Central and everyone want to know where to pick up the money. I guess they would even give you half if you can tell them where to pick it up, as they are there since month that is a huge amount.

etc......

This is off topic but it keeps coming up over and over again in every thread. As we can see from hundreds of posts, everyone knows someone who was paid to attend either an anti-government or a pro-government rally. Then that anecdotal evidence is used to try to discredit whichever side the poster disagrees with.

The fact is, payment happens but is probably not a deciding factor. In cases where there is greater expense, more money is exchanged, for example, where people have to travel. If Bangkok protesters travel to an up country rally, they need money from somewhere, either from a sponsor or from their own resources if they are financially well off. If upcountry people travel to Bangkok to protest, they need money for bus fare, food, transportation, lost wages, etc. In some cases, especially for poor people, attending a rally might be profitable - whichever group is paying them at the time.

I suspect most people attend political rallies because they want to be there.

Actually everyone I know stays there because they want to be or do you think people take the tear gas for 500 Baht?

There is no solid evidence that anyone at PAD get paid, just some known PAD hater have to my surprise a lot friends who attends the PAD for 500 Baht (hidden under the Banana leaf). But the PAD haters have to my surprise no friends who joined the pro government group for money.

[animatic]

Regardless what you may think about the present government, PM or political situation, in a genuine democracy its unthinkable that an army general ventilate his political opinion in public. And even worse, urge the PM to resign.

I can only conclude that Thailand has no clue about what democracy really means. Take for instance the fact that PAD says that 75 of the MP's must be appointed, and not elected. PPP is an incestuous gang of self appointed people who only strive their own politica ambitions and benefits.

Non of them has an eye for the real needs of the country.

STUPID,STUPID, STUPID.

Well said.

Thailand is a democracy in it's infancy.

We should all encourage them in all ways possible to abide by the law of the land and deal with decention the way a true representative government would do it.

We should not be surprised when it doesn't happen that way.

~WISteve

Actually American generals do have differing opinions publically.

They state them as their own, but take orders, like them or not.

The PPP is not acting like a true representative government and THERE'S THE RUB!

That is why there is a solid broad based movement against them.

IF they actually made efforts to do the peoples WORK, rather than hide behind ceremonial duties

waiting to redo the constitution for THEIR benefit, then people would be leaving them mostly

to do the WORK of a representative government.

But this is not the case.

As long as the deep-pockets of Thaksin are holding sway over ANY Thai government,

we will not see the backside of PAD. This is the crux of this hardtack bisquit.

Edited October 19, 2008 by animatic

[hammered]

I wonder how much Salang - or more likely his paymaster in London - is paying the inactive policemen who are according to Salang going to attack the PAD on Wednesday.

I also wonder how much Sae Daeng or his master are paying the DAAD members who have declared war on the military for suggesting bro-in-laws slave PM resign so that the elected body could choose another government.

[animatic]

I wonder how much Salang - or more likely his paymaster in London - is paying the inactive policemen who are according to Salang going to attack the PAD on Wednesday.

I also wonder how much Sae Daeng or his master are paying the DAAD members who have declared war on the military for suggesting bro-in-laws slave PM resign so that the elected body could choose another government.

More than my pay stubb no doubt.

[Bryan in Isaan]

...............

I suspect most people attend political rallies because they want to be there.

Actually everyone I know stays there because they want to be or do you think people take the tear gas for 500 Baht?

There is no solid evidence that anyone at PAD get paid, just some known PAD hater have to my surprise a lot friends who attends the PAD for 500 Baht (hidden under the Banana leaf). But the PAD haters have to my surprise no friends who joined the pro government group for money.

I agree that there are not many people who would knowingly face tear gas for 500Baht. Neither would Salang's policemen fight the army or lie down in front of tanks for money.

The evidence I speak of is hearsay, not any more or less credible than some newspaper articles. I have no reason to doubt stories that people from my town were paid to attend PAD rallies. You say that you don't know anyone who was paid to attend and I believe you too.

It looks to me - just my opinion, Jdinasia - that both pro and anti government people are passionate in their viewpoints and aren't in it for the money. It would be much simpler if the money could be shut off and everyone would just go home.

[WAERTH]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=131503

Great article ...... talks about mobilizing people. Setting up a training camp to teach people how to throw Molotov cocktails. It is basically short of declaring a war on the army.

W

[WAERTH]

On the paying people debate .....

I know from my ex-gf in Udon (whom I am still good friends with) that she loves election times. She says me and the rest of the family go to the speeches of the Poo Yai's of different parties and just take their money .... of whomever hands it out .... and we will vote what we want anyway.

[h90]

...............

I suspect most people attend political rallies because they want to be there.

Actually everyone I know stays there because they want to be or do you think people take the tear gas for 500 Baht?

There is no solid evidence that anyone at PAD get paid, just some known PAD hater have to my surprise a lot friends who attends the PAD for 500 Baht (hidden under the Banana leaf). But the PAD haters have to my surprise no friends who joined the pro government group for money.

I agree that there are not many people who would knowingly face tear gas for 500Baht. Neither would Salang's policemen fight the army or lie down in front of tanks for money.

The evidence I speak of is hearsay, not any more or less credible than some newspaper articles. I have no reason to doubt stories that people from my town were paid to attend PAD rallies. You say that you don't know anyone who was paid to attend and I believe you too.

It looks to me - just my opinion, Jdinasia - that both pro and anti government people are passionate in their viewpoints and aren't in it for the money. It would be much simpler if the money could be shut off and everyone would just go home.

If you shut off the money PAD is not going home. We (including my wife+staff) know approx. 100 PAD supporters and no one of them is paid. They are telling that they would even continue of Sondhi tell them to stop. (but I doubt that is possible, without ASTV it won't work)

[animatic]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=131503

Great article ...... talks about mobilizing people. Setting up a training camp to teach people how to throw Molotov cocktails. It is basically short of declaring a war on the army.

W

Basically we are seeing the Thaksin created cracks in the armed forces showing their snouts.

Except the COMBINED leadership of armed forces seems to be on the same page.

If there is a mutiny then it will get much more interesting.

These little groups are dangerous, but not the REAL danger, they are the match,

and it's a question of which bundle of pre-placed kindling they manage to light up.

I suspecty the generals have some nicely placed spies sitting close by Thaksins

installed armed forces plants. I think they are watching and waiting.

A Molitov cocktail is not likely to realy stop a tank. It will light up the outside,

and burn off, might blind the driver or targeting for spell, but all gone in 5 minutes or so.

Now you place a guy with a 60mm machine gun on top of each tank, and you tell me

what kinda nut will run up and throw a molotov cocktail....

Besides they just told them to add 2-3 small fire extingusers into each tank.

Nothing like telegraphing your moves. Silly bunnies.

[sriracha john]

PPP : PM decisions in line with Party's resolution

First Lieutenant Kuthep Saikrajang, acting People Power Party Spokesman, insisted today (October 19) Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Somchai Wongsawat's decisions not to resign from his posts, or dissolve the lower House of Representatives, were in line with the PPP's resolution on October 14.

He also said PPP Deputy Leader's decisions were aimed at accomplishing three upcoming missions, including resolving the political deadlock via proposing an establishment of the third Constitution drafting assembly.

He also denied as groundless reports suggesting that Somchai decided to stay on following instruction by former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

PPP acting Spokesman also suggested that leaders of the armed forces should have officially expressed their political stances through the country's television pool, instead of choosing only some particular TV channel.

Armed forces' leaders, including Army Commander in Chief, Gen Anupong Paochinda, showed up on a TV 3's news programme last week, calling for Somchai to resign to be responsible for October 7 clashes between police and anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy.

Kuthep also said that he disagreed with the movement by some National Institute of Development Administration (NIDA)'s lecturers and alumni to try to withdraw Somchai's educational degree on the same grounds as armed forces' views calling for the premier to call it quit from his positions.

- ThaiNews / 2008-10-19

[sonnyJ]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=131503

Great article ...... talks about mobilizing people. Setting up a training camp to teach people how to throw Molotov cocktails. It is basically short of declaring a war on the army.

W

A Molitov cocktail is not likely to realy stop a tank. It will light up the outside,

and burn off, might blind the driver or targeting for spell, but all gone in 5 minutes or so.

Now you place a guy with a 60mm machine gun on top of each tank, and you tell me

what kinda nut will run up and throw a molotov cocktail....

Besides they just told them to add 2-3 small fire extingusers into each tank.

Nothing like telegraphing your moves. Silly bunnies.

The Molotov cocktail, as named after Soviet Gen. Molotov in charge of invasion of Finland in the late 30's, by the Finnish defense force, Russians attempted but defeated invasion of Finland, The Winter War, worked as a very effective weapon in destroying the Soviet tanks. Tactically applied, lit up and thrown on the back of the tank, where the air in-take for the engine and crew is located had a devastating effect. The Molotov cocktail played a crucial part in this part of the WW2.

I'm not familiar with today's tanks, they should have got smarter but you can always find the weak spots.

What comes to the topic i'm sure there will be some interesting times ahead.

[Pierrot]

Interesting piece of information in The Nation this morning (internet edition, front page) :

"The trust in the government has eroded and sentiment has shifted in favour of the Democrats..."

Which basically means that popular sentiment was previously in favour of the government, right ? Which also mean they* obviously lied to us until know. And IMO, they still do !

* they : the people who claimed that the government stole the election and didn't have the support of the country.

[sriracha john]

What were the results of the previous ABAC polls prior to the one you're citing now?

[TAWP]

Both sides (numerous parties) were 'found guilty' of election freud, yellow & red cards were handed out as per EC suggestions and the government was formed appropriately and correctly - with PPP majority. A fair result because the 'cheats' (on both sides) were rightly kicked out.

No, 'both sides' have not been found guilt of electoral fraud. The democrats are the only party in opposition and they have not, afaik.

And I hope you are not trying to say that PPP has a majority in any way, neither parliament nor MPs in the government?

[Samuian]

......edit.... As Somchai is being attacked by right-wing organizations (PAD) he must show the same the resolve for the good of Thailand. To give in to right-wing military pressure would be detrimental to Thailand.

I bet you can easily top that!

How much do you they pay you for this a month?

However, no matter what, paid or not paid, "democratic government"or not, if the clash takes place as promised by some really evil elements... it will certainly rock the casbah!

Some people might be just too keen to see this being staged, no better statement for the existence of the PAD!

Ex-General Powel has just endorsed Mr.Obama.... as Generals don't make such statements..

Edited October 20, 2008 by Samuian

[Pierrot]

What were the results of the previous ABAC polls prior to the one you're citing now?

I'm not citing any poll, I'm citing the Nation, which is, as far as any good PAD supporter is concerned, the most reliable source of what's going on in Thailand

[Pierrot]

I wonder how much Salang - or more likely his paymaster in London - is paying the inactive policemen who are according to Salang going to attack the PAD on Wednesday.

I also wonder how much Sae Daeng or his master are paying the DAAD members who have declared war on the military for suggesting bro-in-laws slave PM resign so that the elected body could choose another government.

Why ? You may switch side if it's more that what you get from the PAD ?

So far the people who support the government show up for work every morning, they have no problem to explain the origin of their pay check. As for the people who occupy the government house for the past few weeks, honestly, it's going to be more difficult.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Pierrot

[sriracha john]

Interesting piece of information in The Nation this morning (internet edition, front page) :

"The trust in the government has eroded and sentiment has shifted in favour of the Democrats..."

Which basically means that popular sentiment was previously in favour of the government, right ? Which also mean they* obviously lied to us until know. And IMO, they still do !

* they : the people who claimed that the government stole the election and didn't have the support of the country.

What were the results of the previous ABAC polls prior to the one you're citing now?

I'm not citing any poll, I'm citing the Nation, which is, as far as any good PAD supporter is concerned, the most reliable source of what's going on in Thailand

Sure you're citing a poll, the entire article you posted and cited is based upon an ABAC poll....it's even in the title of the article. I'd be happy to provide you with a link to the article that you posted if you need the assistance.

So, what were the findings of the earlier ABAC polls?

Edited October 20, 2008 by sriracha john

[Guest Reimar]

FROM TOC

Chamlong Urges Military to Reinforce Call for PM to Resign

UPDATE : 21 October 2008

Core People's Alliance for Democracy leader Chamlong Srimuang is calling for chiefs of the armed forces to reinforce their demand for PM Somchai Wongsawat to take responsibility for what happened on October 7th.

He added that for his role in the Black Tuesday, PM Somchai is unfit to host the royal funeral for Princess Galyani Vadhana.

Chamlong Srimuang, a senior PAD leader, took his nightly turn on the PAD stage last night. He began his speech by stating that the provocative interview on Channel 3, given by chiefs of the Thai armed forces last week, has produced no visible change in the current political crisis.

Last week, chiefs of the armed forces, the Supreme Commander and the National Police commissioner gave an potentially-provocative interview on Channel 3.

Army Commander-in-chief General Anupong appeared on Channel 3 with Supreme Commander General Songkitti Jakkabatra, Navy chief Admiral Kamthorn Phumhiran, Air Force commander-in-chief Air Chief Marshal Itthaporn Supawong and National Police Chief Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan. During the interview, General Anupong clearly stated that if he were PM Somchai, he would have long resigned to take responsibility for the October 7th tragedy.

However, Chamlong insisted the PAD is not calling for the army to stage a coup. He added that PM Somchai has immediately brushed aside General Anupong’s call for him to step down. The premier responded to interview by saying General Anupong had merely expressed his personal opinion and that it was not an official collective stance of the armed forces, the supreme commander and the national police chief.

PAD leader Chamlong, however, thinks otherwise. Chamlong insisted that the commanders and the national police chief were dressed in their full uniform during the interview so they were speaking on an official basis.

Faced with a not so subtle call for the premier to resign and constant ‘ambushes’ by PAD hand clappers, Chamlong said the Somchai government is incapable of administering the country. He explained that they are merely ‘holding on’ at best.

On another development, the PAD will dismantle the Makawan stage to make way for the royal procession on Thursday. October 23rd marks the national Chulalongkorn Memorial Day.

[Guest Reimar]

TOT staffs welcome PM with hand clappers and yell

By The Nation HERE

Staffs of Telephone Organisation of Thailand briefly blocked Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat who visited their office on Wednesday.

Before Somchai entered the main building of the TOT headquarter to start his visit, he was greeted with large crowd of TOT employees who booed and jeered him along the way to the door.

Many employees shook hand clappers and yelled, " Killer. Killer. Get Out" at Somchai who is brother-in-law of convicted ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Somchai still forced to smile at the crowd.

The large crowd of employees then waited for Somchai to come out of the building. Somchai's security guards were deployed to prevent the crowd from getting close to the premier.

The security become tense when Somchai finished his visit and was about to leave the building to his car.

A security guard quarreled with an employee while trying to block the way for his boss. Somchai was briefly blocked inside the building before his security guards managed to find a way to his car.

The employees continued yelling and shaking the hand clappers until he left the TOT.

[wayfarer108]

Things haven't changed much since The Times wrote:

'Outwardly the new regime is democratic, but in practice so far it is a one-party government of a mildly fascist complexion.'

--London Times, 1932, on Thailand's change to constitutional monarchy