Govt To Proceed With Charter Amendment

[Guest Reimar]

FROM TOC

Govt to Proceed with Charter Amendment

UPDATE : 20 October 2008

The four partite meeting has resolved to form the Constitution Drafting Assembly to take charge of the charter amendment. The installation of its members will be made through an indirect election.

Deputy Secretary General of the People Power Party and Chairman of the House ad-committee in charge of revising the Charter's article 291, Sukhumpong Ngoankhum revealed that today's four partite meeting approved the revamped version of article 291 on the requirements of constitution amendment.

The revamped version of article 291 requires that the charter amendment must be run by the Constitution Drafting Assembly or CDA which will comprise 120 members.

76 of them will come from 76 provinces. 24 will be made up of experts from the areas of political science and law and the rest of the members will be made up of professional groups.

Sukumpung said their selection would be based on the model of 1997's CDA that was made through indirect election, adding that its process would be free from political influence.

He said the revamped bill of the charter's article 291 would be presented for Parliamentary deliberation in the near future and the CDA's formation would be completed within 90 days and the constitution amendment completed within 240 days.

The new draft constitution will later be presented to Parliament for deliberation while a national referendum could be held if the draft fails to win parliamentary endorsement.

Sukhumpong also insisted that the CDA's formation is not intended to help extend the government or buy it time. He also said he was not worried that the move will be interpreted by the People's Alliance for Democracy as reason to prolong its anti-government protests.

Meanwhile, former Senate Speaker Suchon Charleekreor commented that the resolution of the four-partite meeting offers the best solution to the present situation and he believes current Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Bundej will accept its resolution in principle.

Former Acting Leader of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai party Jaturon Chaisaeng said he agrees with the CDA's formation as it will help resolve the political problems facing the country, but added that people should get involved in its processes as much as possible.

[Pierrot]

Today I learned a new word : "partite"

[Guest Reimar]

Today I learned a new word : "partite"

That's life! Never stop learning!

Cheers.

[animatic]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Partite

p. p. of partire to part, divide, from pars.

See Part, and cf. Party, a.] (Bot.)

Divided nearly to the base; as,

a partite leaf is a separated down nearly to the base.

Dictionary.com Unabridged

–adjective

1. divided into parts, usu.ally into a specified number of parts (usually used in combination):

a tripartite agreement.

2. Botany. parted.

So the quadpartite meeting is reduced to tripartite.

In this case... it certainly is only joined at the ankles and no higher.

Parti pris tripartait!

Edited October 20, 2008 by animatic

[WISteve]

Banana Republic, here we come...

I don't think it will be a long journey.

Article 291 deals with amendment of the constitution.

The procedures to follow.

"Section 291. An amendment of the Constitution may be made only under the rules and procedure as follows:

(1) a motion for amendment must be proposed either by the Council of Ministers or members of the House of Representatives of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members of the House of Representatives or members of both Houses of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members thereof or persons having the right to votes of not less than fifty thousand in number under the law on the public submission of a bill;

A motion for amendment which has the effect of changing the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State or changing the form of State shall be prohibited;

(2) a motion for amendment must be proposed in the form of a draft Constitution Amendment and the National Assembly shall consider it in three readings;

(3) the voting in the first reading for acceptance in principle shall be by roll call and open voting, and the amendment must be approved by votes of not less than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(4) in the consideration section by section in the second reading, consultation with the people who submit a draft Constitution Amendment shall be held;

The voting in the second reading for consideration section by section shall be decided by a simple majority of votes;

(5) at the conclusion of the second reading, there shall be an interval of fifteen days after which the National Assembly shall proceed with its third reading;

(6) the voting in the third and final reading shall be by roll call and open voting, and its promulgation as the Constitution must be approved by votes of more than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(7) after the resolution has been passed in accordance with the above rules and procedure, the draft Constitution Amendment shall be presented to the King, and the provisions of section 150 and section 151 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Thai Constitution

As long as the changes aren't retroactive they won't shelter any of Mr T's misdeeds.

That's the important part IMO.

~WISteve

[Pierrot]

Banana Republic, here we come...

I don’t like the expression “banana republic”, it usually refers to street violence, repressive military regime, right wing militia at a level Thailand never really reached. IMO we should refer to Thailand as a “mango republic”

[animatic]

Banana Republic, here we come...

I don't think it will be a long journey.

Article 291 deals with amendment of the constitution.

The procedures to follow.

"Section 291. An amendment of the Constitution may be made only under the rules and procedure as follows:

(1) a motion for amendment must be proposed either by the Council of Ministers [WHO?] or members of the House of Representatives of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members of the House of Representatives or members of both Houses of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members thereof or persons having the right to votes of not less than fifty thousand in number under the law on the public submission of a bill;

A motion for amendment which has the effect of changing the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State or changing the form of State shall be prohibited;

(2) a motion for amendment must be proposed in the form of a draft Constitution Amendment and the National Assembly shall consider it in three readings;

(3) the voting in the first reading for acceptance in principle shall be by roll call and open voting, and the amendment must be approved by votes of not less than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(4) in the consideration section by section in the second reading, consultation with the people who submit a draft Constitution Amendment shall be held;

[so PPP submits a draft and talks to themselves.. cherce!]

The voting in the second reading for consideration section by section shall be decided by a simple majority of votes;

(5) at the conclusion of the second reading, there shall be an interval of fifteen days after which the National Assembly shall proceed with its third reading;

[Time for more riots and a change of government...]

(6) the voting in the third and final reading shall be by roll call and open voting, and its promulgation as the Constitution must be approved by votes of more than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

[so the ONLY backstop on this is the appointed senate, blocking PPP's run for the glory...hole

Wait this is an 'appointed body' how could THEY be trusted... wait PAD didn't appoint them]

(7) after the resolution has been passed in accordance with the above rules and procedure, the draft Constitution Amendment shall be presented to the King, and the provisions of section 150 and section 151 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Thai Constitution

As long as the changes aren't retroactive they won't shelter any of Mr T's misdeeds.

That's the important part IMO.

~WISteve

Well the framers of this constitution screwed the pooch with the numbers.

Only 1/5th needed to open an amendment debate!!!

And only 1/2 to make changes... not 2/3rds for each!!!

They left it open season for PPP to do as they see fit.

If it only takes the members of PPP to pass this then Dr. T. is golden.

The question is:

How much money will he throw at members of the senate

to go along with this boondoogle.

If the senate blocks this because of massive public outcry

all is well.

But prior to this will be an effort to silence the publics watch dog PAD,

in a most thorough and violent way. What the public doesn't know,

or is suddenly TOO AFRAID to come out and protest about,

becomes law of the land

[Los78]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

[Moonrakers]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

[Moonrakers]

^^

I thought as much.

[h90]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

[animatic]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

Because it is basically the '97 one,

but tougher on party based corruption.

Rather than toughen it up more that want to cut themselves slack.

Typical.

[Crushdepth]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Yes they'll have plenty of time to write a new version from their jail cells.

[sjaak327]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes yes yes, we know, there were a few votes bought, so they broke the rules. Of course the vote buying bullshit has been used for years to explain Thaksin's popularity, as a matter of fact, HE WAS very popular with many Thai people. Thaksin's first lanslide victory (or before someone corrects me, TRT's), according to observers were the most fair elections in Thai history.

But of course he became PM because of vote buying, the PPP and a few other coalition parties came to power because of massive vote buying, and the discussion continues...

One thing is for sure, the PAD has zero mandate.

And on topic, I fullly support the current government to change the junta fabricated charter, and replace it with the 97 charter. In fact, you could say that legally it's the right thing to do.

Edited October 22, 2008 by sjaak327

[jayjayjayjay]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

which is why nobody on the anti-PAD side doesn't give you any credibility. A ridiculous point of view in the face of fact.

[hammered]

One thing we should be aware of is that the major coalition partner was put together funded and tasked to change the constitution in a certain way. A lot odf the other stuff we have seen means we sometimes miss this, but this is at the core and is no great secret. The major coalition party also did pretty well in the eelction almost winning an overall majority although whether that was becuase people wanted to see a charter change is moot and probably was not a major issue in ballot casting decisons imho.

We also see virtually everyone is agreed with a need to ammend the constitution. It is just nobody agrees on how and it is quite unlikely anyone with any advantage in decision making on this will give an inch. There is no trust at all between the various parties at this time.

Now the way the PPP are trasked to change the constitution is a way that will be vigorously opposed not just by the PAD but also by the bureaucracy who do not have exactly the same agenda as the PAD, but they do agree on Thaksin isnt coming back.

That leaves us back to the original fight change the constitution to assist Thaksin and the 111 versus sto[p it happening. This is now in the open. Quite how it will play out who knows but one thing is for sure unless there is an unexpected late deal or one side unexpectedly capitulates or one side is suddenly deserted by significant backers it will likely end very nastily.

all imho of course

[Los78]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes the government was ELECTED. Well documented and with a coalition MAJORITY. I know some of you dont like it, but they are the simple facts of the democratic process. So sorry we could not have appointed your favourite pick. Sadly for you the majority has the right to vote and they will fight for that right. A charter re-write will only improve the situation for all.

[ilyushin]

Big mistake.

Like opening Pandora's Box!

[TAWP]

Los78>> What part of the re-write would that be? Amnesty for criminals?

[animatic]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes the government was ELECTED. Well documented and with a coalition MAJORITY. I know some of you dont like it, but they are the simple facts of the democratic process. So sorry we could not have appointed your favourite pick. Sadly for you the majority has the right to vote and they will fight for that right. A charter re-write will only improve the situation for all.

The current government was picked by PPP MP's after Thaksin said use these guys.

It was a backroom deal brokered with lovely cats like Banharn to keep a coalition of the greedy in place.

It had no input from the voters at all. At least they voted for Samak in some way.

As the party leader and expected head of government.

But this is an apointed government, since when Samak's fell, they refused to call a new election

as would be done in MOST parlementary systems.

PAD wants to essentially change who does the appointing; in worst case,

if appointing is needed to change things for the better.

If that way can be avoided I am sure they would go along.

But they WON'T go along with the current crop of puppets installing who they like

depending on how much money is thrown their way..

It is a SHAM government at present.

It is feudal patronage government in modern dress.

[sjaak327]

The current government was picked by PPP MP's after Thaksin said use these guys.

It was a backroom deal brokered with lovely cats like Banharn to keep a coalition of the greedy in place.

It had no input from the voters at all. At least they voted for Samak in some way.

As the party leader and expected head of government.

But this is an apointed government, since when Samak's fell, they refused to call a new election

as would be done in MOST parlementary systems.

PAD wants to essentially change who does the appointing; in worst case,

if appointing is needed to change things for the better.

If that way can be avoided I am sure they would go along.

But they WON'T go along with the current crop of puppets installing who they like

depending on how much money is thrown their way..

It is a SHAM government at present.

It is feudal patronage government in modern dress.

In MOST parliamentary systems, the PM would not be asked to step down, because he hosted a cooking show, or because he was convicted of libel.

Furhtermore, Samak wasn't directly choosen, and was PM because his party formed a coalition government and was by far the biggest party. This coalition is still intact, hence there would be no reason to call for new elections. And this works pretty much the same way in many parliamentary sytems the world over, where coalitions have to be formed in order to govern a country, and where the PM is not democratically elected.

[TAWP]

sjaak327>> He wasn't asked to step down since he 'hosted a cooking show'. He was asked down since he acted against the known rules of accepting money for another job while being PM. Rules written to help avoid obvious conflict of interest problems.

It's not the courts point to decide what he did for the money but that he DID receive and work for the money.

If you cannot grasp that...

[h90]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes the government was ELECTED. Well documented and with a coalition MAJORITY. I know some of you dont like it, but they are the simple facts of the democratic process. So sorry we could not have appointed your favourite pick. Sadly for you the majority has the right to vote and they will fight for that right. A charter re-write will only improve the situation for all.

They are on the way to get dissolved because of vote buying, which is destroying democracy.

[sjaak327]

sjaak327>> He wasn't asked to step down since he 'hosted a cooking show'. He was asked down since he acted against the known rules of accepting money for another job while being PM. Rules written to help avoid obvious conflict of interest problems.

It's not the courts point to decide what he did for the money but that he DID receive and work for the money.

If you cannot grasp that...

So he did receive a few baht for his appearence in the cooking show, still pretty ridiculous to have to step down because of that, as I remember it was all because conflict of interest, rather then receiving money. Either way, a rule that clearly needs amending. Good on the government if they are going to get rid of this particular rule.

Of course there is not a sane person that would see this as conflict of interest.

[TAWP]

sjaak327>> He wasn't asked to step down since he 'hosted a cooking show'. He was asked down since he acted against the known rules of accepting money for another job while being PM. Rules written to help avoid obvious conflict of interest problems.

It's not the courts point to decide what he did for the money but that he DID receive and work for the money.

If you cannot grasp that...

So he did receive a few baht for his appearence in the cooking show, still pretty ridiculous to have to step down because of that, as I remember it was all because conflict of interest, rather then receiving money. Either way, a rule that clearly needs amending. Good on the government if they are going to get rid of this particular rule.

Of course there is not a sane person that would see this as conflict of interest.

Errr...are you kidding me?

Ok, so you would like to amend the rule that people cannot hold another job while being PM.

I'm presuming you are talking about adding some exception clause - or are you talking about a removal of the rule all together? How would the exception clause go do you think?

[animatic]

sjaak327>> He wasn't asked to step down since he 'hosted a cooking show'. He was asked down since he acted against the known rules of accepting money for another job while being PM. Rules written to help avoid obvious conflict of interest problems.

It's not the courts point to decide what he did for the money but that he DID receive and work for the money.

If you cannot grasp that...

So he did receive a few baht for his appearence in the cooking show, still pretty ridiculous to have to step down because of that, as I remember it was all because conflict of interest, rather then receiving money. Either way, a rule that clearly needs amending. Good on the government if they are going to get rid of this particular rule.

Of course there is not a sane person that would see this as conflict of interest.

So the rule of law is OK if you like your coalition government.

But not if you like your PM TO BE ABLE TO BREAK THE LAW.

He broke the law, the law is there for good reasons.

PPP will be dissolved because they broke the law.

That law is there ALSO for good reasons.

So, you call me insane?

I see that a MEDIA company

which makes it's money from getting shows on 'government controlled' TV stations

is paying the HEAD of government to host a TV show.

That is CLEAR conflict of interest.

Has NOTHING to do with the show's content; cooking.

In his case it likely was more a a vanity show,

but no less confict of interest, even if it was mostly to stroke his massive ego.

But it ALSO was free political air time he talked about politics as much as he cooked.

[Los78]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes the government was ELECTED. Well documented and with a coalition MAJORITY. I know some of you dont like it, but they are the simple facts of the democratic process. So sorry we could not have appointed your favourite pick. Sadly for you the majority has the right to vote and they will fight for that right. A charter re-write will only improve the situation for all.

They are on the way to get dissolved because of vote buying, which is destroying democracy.

All political parties in Thailand have been known for some minor vote buying in elections. Historically the Democrates did it also in previous elections. Vote buying in some form happens in all Democratic countries wether its through promises to develop your region if voted in or through promise for tax cuts. Its all buying votes in some way. You dont know that do you?. Your constant arguements dont say much as vote buying in some form or another happen everywhere Europe, etc. Anyway the ELECTED government has the right to change this pethetic charter handed down to the people by a Currupted Junta government.

[TAWP]

Los78>> Yes, and it will be much better when this 'currupted' [sic] group writes it?

[h90]

The ridiculous 2007 Military Junta charter is a embarressment to Thailand. A charter re-write is badly needed and I hope the ELECTED governemnet gets it done soon. All the best to them.

Your reasoning being................

I think that ELECTED was so often discussed that I really can't find the power anymore to explain why this government was NOT ELECTED....

Yes the government was ELECTED. Well documented and with a coalition MAJORITY. I know some of you dont like it, but they are the simple facts of the democratic process. So sorry we could not have appointed your favourite pick. Sadly for you the majority has the right to vote and they will fight for that right. A charter re-write will only improve the situation for all.

They are on the way to get dissolved because of vote buying, which is destroying democracy.

All political parties in Thailand have been known for some minor vote buying in elections. Historically the Democrates did it also in previous elections. Vote buying in some form happens in all Democratic countries wether its through promises to develop your region if voted in or through promise for tax cuts. Its all buying votes in some way. You dont know that do you?. Your constant arguements dont say much as vote buying in some form or another happen everywhere Europe, etc. Anyway the ELECTED government has the right to change this pethetic charter handed down to the people by a Currupted Junta government.

In the last elections there is not much evidence from the Democrates bought votes. But if there is one, they should be dissolved as well.

In my opinion there is a big difference between making populistic promises and going from door to door and hand out cash.

Any promises from tax cuts or developing areas can be discussed from the other parties (too expensive, where get the money, etc etc).

I know two countries in Europe in detail, in one country I was frequently very deeply involved in elections and I can confirm there is no vote buying, not a little bit.

An government which came to power due to vote buying might be elected but not democratic elected. They have no rights at all. They are illegal.

And by the way: Who was corrupt at the Junta (while I believe that there might be some small scale corruption, I don't know any evidence).

[sjaak327]

Errr...are you kidding me?

Ok, so you would like to amend the rule that people cannot hold another job while being PM.

I'm presuming you are talking about adding some exception clause - or are you talking about a removal of the rule all together? How would the exception clause go do you think?

No I'm not kidding. Either they remove the law, or they amend it in such a way, that a clear conflict of interest has to be proven in order for the PM to have to resign.

The Samak case clearly showed the law is flawed. To great amusement of the international press, where the consensus was one of disbelief and laughter.