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Thaksin Guilty In Land Case, Gets 2-year Imprisonment


george

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^Yes maybe he did help a broader constituency than previous leaders.

But he also couldn't resist the temptation to be up for a dodgy deal (and the appeal of a sweet wheeler deal is in his DNA as a self made man in East Asian buisness, there is no more chance he'd ignore one as a dog would ignore a sausage on a sidewalk)

But in this modern era, with modern communications, you can't do that as a politician, plus, more importantly tread on toes and hope not to be noticed.

His mistake was not the dodgy deals, certainly not the purchased votes, it was the mucking around with other people's cashflow. As the Mafia says, You don't screw with other people's money (big players) and get away with it.

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I know you are in the industry. However, we are discussing a court case, not how business is done in Thailand. Do you seriously think this is much different from business in the past? Only some of the players at the top were different. The others you mentioned are the same guys that have been in this industry for many, many years. Business as usual, mate.

Since we are discussing a court case here, I can only base my opinions on what has been publicly reported. You have made the comment: "If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it?" You seem to be hinting that the appraisers who came up with the market values at the time of the auction may have falsified their work. I understand the FDIC used world class appraisers. Do you know different?

Collusion on bidding is hard to prove in court unless there is clear cut information. Do you know of any such information?

The issue of official valuation and actual market value have little to do with eachother; as you probably know basically every property is officially valued at a significantly lower value than price paid, which is why mortgages are usually set at 75% of the official valuation, which is usually around 60% of the true value - almost every single person who gets a mortgage can report the same experience. Government valuations....meaningless.

They did NOT use worldclass appraisers AFAIK, they used government valuations. Why - do you have some document that suggest that they DID use a worldclass appraiser - and if so - knowing as every property developer does that you can get a favourable or unfavourable appraisal from many worldwide property companies, how can we even rely on anything short of an audited appraisal?

Collusion on bidding is irrelevant between the 3 parties is in any case not relevant, the law states clearly that the PM is not allowed to interfere to sell assets directly to associated parties, i.e. his wife.

He would presumably not be allowed to sell to her even if it was at a market price, a lower than market price or even a higher than market price.

Which makes it even more stupid, although certainly not the most blatant of the TRT corruption deals - that they didn't even try to hide it.

As for collusion, given my own dealings with TRT in areas completely unrelated to this matter, I would say 100% there is no paper record, but 99% confident that at least L&H and Khunying Or spoke to eachother about it and that 100% confident other developers knew who was bidding and 99% confident that the issue of what price they intended to bid at was at least available to both sides (or to Khunying Or) prior to close of auction.

Clever not to have a paper trail. Very stupid to break a very simple law that exists almost everywhere around the world precisely to avoid conflicts of interest.

Do you want to debate the cooking show illegal work - similar situation for Samak.

Steveromagnino, I am not going to argue with you on what you say as I have heard it all before, and frankly, I think most of it is true anyway. Still, this is a court case and my arguments related only to those testified to in court as that is what the judges based their decision on.

At the end of the day, he was convicted for knowing his wife was buying the property, even though it appeared (in the court) that the purchase was legal. That isn't a whole lot of guilt for someone who has been described as the most corrupt person ever to serve as PM. This is the problem I have had with this case from the beginning.

I await the cases on the airport, where the real corruption was supposed to have occurred.

And let's not forget the sale of ShinCorps in Singapore, four days after Thaksin successfully pushed Parliament to drop capital gains taxes from SET trades. That trail leads all the way back to 1977, when Thaksin collaborated with then-Minister of Interior, Samak Sundaravej, to tender his monopoly bid on Thailand's first satcom enterprise. As with the land sale, possibly all legal, technically. Don't forget the reason why Thaksin resigned. It was not that he wasn't legally acceptable, but because he wasn't morally acceptable, to a large proporation of the Thai public. If Thaksin were really convinced he was morally in the right, I don't think he would have resigned in the first place, or have fled to the UK.

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One of the most interesting facets is the Supreme Courts voting......The only mention was the 5/4 vote....However take a look at the total case:

Voting on key points of the historic verdict

9-0 - The 1999 anti-corruption act is effective.

9-0 - Appointment of Assets Examination Committee is constitutional with authority to investigate cases.

9-0 - Financial Institutions Development Fund, the land seller, is a government agency.

6-3 - The prime minister has oversight of FIDF.

5-4 - Thaksin Shinawatra violated the 1999 anti-corruption act.

7-2 - Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra is not guilty and her arrest warrant will be cancelled.

7-2 - The Ratchadaphisek land plot and transaction money will not be confiscated.

9-0 - Thaksin is sentenced to a two-year jail term. Sounds pretty solid too me.

I had mentioned in an earlier post about Pojaman is not guilty, BECAUSE SHE IS NOT UNDER THE JURISDICITON OF THIS COURT! The court is expressly for people of high political office.

As too the land case, I believe the government bought this piece of land for about 2 billion baht, and sold it for 1/3 the value....it was not just a piece of land the government had owned for hundreds of years....

Where is Dog the Bounty Hunter?? We need a group of mercenaries to bring this family back to Thailand. Until some solid action happens to this elete corrupt group there is little hope of changing the som num nah attitude here in the Kingdom.

Thaksin's letter does not fully address the charges, but then he has a degree in criminology, not law. He implies the agency was independent of himself and that he had no oversight. The court disagreed.

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..... but here you really miss the point. I'm a bit disappointed because I didn't realize you're the kind of person who believes pay checks grow on trees.

.........edit.....

If you are a businessman on a trade show, whatever your political opinion;

When your customers are more worried about the political situation than the quality of your products, you know you have a problem.

..........edit........... you will see if self sufficiency really works … And the urban idiots who support the current unrests will have some explaining to do to their cousins, the rural idiots, when begging for a bowl of rice.

So it wouldn't be entirely wrong then to conclude that, as long there is business, heck about human rights, heck about massive corruption, nepotism, taking advantage whilst in office, heck about the law, heck about....well who cares, hey we are making money, holding up the economy so we can "afford to by our bowl of rice"...and not have to go and beg for it!

man, very, very, sorry for this!

What are they doing with their rice if nobody can afford it?

It s about MASSIVE, MASSIVE corruption and wrong doing while in office, the head of the government, about massive malfeasance and not about some stolen peas!

The newly introduced "Taxinomics" have brought maybe some business to the shores of yours, but also unprecedented arrogance to holders of political posts and unseen corruption or is cheating the state out of some 1.2 Billion form a land deal and tax evasion on a similar scale simple pickpocketing?

As long the bucks are flowing, no matter, don't care, morals, ethics = can't eat them - is this the message in your weekend prayer ?

As it has been written here beforehand, this country would certainly NOT be in this mess if this guy and his entourage would have played by the book!

Do you agree?

Or do you think that the courts, the other state agencies looking into these wrongdoings are all but biased, politically motivated, misguided, they all are wrong and on the false path?

:o

Is it the old way, that finally the well has to go tho the bucket, then right becomes wrong, wrong becomes rght?

I don't think so, gotta play by the rules, ALL of us!

Give us/Thailand a break!

Edited by Samuian
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Agree, Thaksin's letter does not fully address the charges.

Purposely. He doesn't address the charges and just tries to muddle it all. Trying to make a point that he cannot be guilty since she wasn't convicted [due to not having authority over her actions]? Ridiculous...

Edited by TAWP
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Journalist, too true.

IF you step on peoples faces on the way up,

they will step on yours on the way down.

And no one stays up on top forever.

So it's thinking after the rise, where will you settle comfortably for the long term.

Looks like Thaksin couldn't think that long term.

The SERIOUS puyais think in 50-100 year family plans.

Thaksin never seemed to think past the next deal done.

Dog with a bone won't go for the steak,

cause he has a bone now, might lose it.

Pierrot your friends team is in some small control at the moment,

but don't imagine it is still winning, it is nothing more than a holding action.

Thaksin lost another round, can't see how you translate that to winning.

The airport is bringing in people left and right, oil prices and transport are bigger issues

than PAD protests, DAAD attacks in the streets are scarier for the incoming.

Only the uninformed businessman would be too scared to come to Thailand

for a business visit.

Seen any reports of horrific attacks on 5 start hotels... Nope didn't think so.

Exchange rate fluctuations are scarier.

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Agree, Thaksin's letter does not fully address the charges.

Purposely. He doesn't address the charges and just tries to muddle it all. Trying to make a point that he cannot be guilty since she wasn't convicted [due to not having authority over her actions]? Ridiculous...

Business as usual, as the victims of 7th October have blown off their limbs themselves, the land deal was signed by a "kuman thong", the 2500 people who died in the "war on drugs" all victims of internal gang war struggle, yep... "Taxinologics" or as the man said: "honest mistakes"!

keep 'em comin' please! :o

Edited by Samuian
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Agree, Thaksin's letter does not fully address the charges.

Purposely. He doesn't address the charges and just tries to muddle it all. Trying to make a point that he cannot be guilty since she wasn't convicted [due to not having authority over her actions]? Ridiculous...

He was convicted for HIS ACTIONS, not hers.

Her actions were technically legal. If morally suspect at best.

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And let's not forget the sale of ShinCorps in Singapore, four days

after Thaksin successfully pushed Parliament to drop capital gains taxes from SET trades.

That trail leads all the way back to 1977, when Thaksin collaborated with then-Minister of Interior,

Samak Sundaravej, to tender his monopoly bid on Thailand's first satcom enterprise.

A nearly 30 years history of jiggering the system for his own profit.

Imagine the good for the country IF capital gains taxes were paid on the Thamasek deal...

but he jiggered the system until he could sell and NOT pay taxes.

4 days later... setting it up the sale with insider information.

He controlled TRT, so he knew he could bull this through.

Totally self-serving legislation.

Temasek was a MASSIVE slap in the face for the whole country.

He and Samak have been in cahoots for decades.

The nature of a monopoly is to prevent others from competing with you.

You can do what you want. And that kind of power makes minds warp.

If he really cared for the little people, his taxes would have helped them.

But he wanted to keep ALL his money, taxes are for fools without lawyers,

and little people. He's the BIG man.

" I AM the government, you can't criticize me." < Thaksin Shiniwatra 2006

Edited by animatic
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So it wouldn't be entirely wrong then to conclude that, as long there is business, heck about human rights, heck about massive corruption, nepotism, taking advantage whilst in office, heck about the law, heck about....well who cares, hey we are making money, holding up the economy so we can "afford to by our bowl of rice"...and not have to go and beg for it!

man, very, very, sorry for this!

Man, where you money come from ? If you can't afford to eat, I tell you, little else matters !

What are they doing with their rice if nobody can afford it?

It s about MASSIVE, MASSIVE corruption and wrong doing while in office, the head of the government, about massive malfeasance and not about some stolen peas!

The newly introduced "Taxinomics" have brought maybe some business to the shores of yours, but also unprecedented arrogance to holders of political posts and unseen corruption or is cheating the state out of some 1.2 Billion form a land deal and tax evasion on a similar scale simple pickpocketing?

As long the bucks are flowing, no matter, don't care, morals, ethics = can't eat them - is this the message in your weekend prayer ?

Communism is dead doesn't work, haven't you heard ?

As it has been written here beforehand, this country would certainly NOT be in this mess if this guy and his entourage would have played by the book!

Do you agree?

No

Or do you think that the courts, the other state agencies looking into these wrongdoings are all but biased, politically motivated, misguided, they all are wrong and on the false path?

Yes

Is it the old way, that finally the well has to go tho the bucket, then right becomes wrong, wrong becomes rght?

I don't think so, gotta play by the rules, ALL of us!

At last we agree on something. Thai people voted, the current coalition in power is their choice. The occupation of the government house is illegal. We should all play by the same rules, mob power is not one of them.

Give us/Thailand a break!

From what you write, it seems "us" (you) and Thailand share the same opinion. Get real. Actually we, (business sector) will appreciate if you and your hopeless friends give us a break and let us go back to our job : feeding this nation !

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Another point which nobody mentioned here, and which the court has highlighted during the sentecing was that, before the sale of the said plot of land, the Government imposed a law on the plot of land that any buildings-developement on the plot of land cannot exceed 4-6(?) floors (can't remember the exact restriction figure). After the sales, the restriction was immediately lifted which then increase the value of the plot of land tremendously.

Reason of edit: spelling mistake

Edited by ^_^
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I do not understand why people are still arguing about this court case. When you read in the international press that the previous PM was kicked out of his post because of his appearance in a cooking show, then you pretend with a straight face that it's not political?

Actually, I agree, it's not political, it’s farcical !

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I do not understand why people are still arguing about this court case. When you read in the international press that the previous PM was kicked out of his post because of his appearance in a cooking show, then you pretend with a straight face that it's not political?

Actually, I agree, it's not political, it’s farcical !

And it's not true.

He took money from an media production company

for multiple paid appearances on a TV show, irrelevant the content,

that makes money off of state TV connected revenues.

State says don't program this company's shows they are out of business.

Samak was the head of the government and could tell his minster

to make life good or difficult for this media comany.

So it is clear conflict of interest to hire / stroke the man who can

make or break your business interests.

Oh, and please do try and not say YOU are the representative of

the business sector feeding Thailand...

Because it lowers any credibility you have.

You are far from the representative or leader of this segment.

Maybe 'representative', as in an example of, some of it's members at best.

So don't presume to speak for all of it.

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So it wouldn't be entirely wrong then to conclude that, as long there is business, heck about human rights, heck about massive corruption, nepotism, taking advantage whilst in office, heck about the law, heck about....well who cares, hey we are making money, holding up the economy so we can "afford to by our bowl of rice"...and not have to go and beg for it!

man, very, very, sorry for this!

Man, where you money come from ? If you can't afford to eat, I tell you, little else matters !

sorry, from an ATM outlet and at the restaurant where I go they haven't run out of ingredients yet!

What are they doing with their rice if nobody can afford it?

It s about MASSIVE, MASSIVE corruption and wrong doing while in office, the head of the government, about massive malfeasance and not about some stolen peas!

The newly introduced "Taxinomics" have brought maybe some business to the shores of yours, but also unprecedented arrogance to holders of political posts and unseen corruption or is cheating the state out of some 1.2 Billion form a land deal and tax evasion on a similar scale simple pickpocketing?

As long the bucks are flowing, no matter, don't care, morals, ethics = can't eat them - is this the message in your weekend prayer ?

Communism is dead doesn't work, haven't you heard ?

Cheap polemics, nothin to do with "communism", but COMMON SENSE and abiding to the LAW

As it has been written here beforehand, this country would certainly NOT be in this mess if this guy and his entourage would have played by the book!

Do you agree?

No

Your, opinion, doesn't make a wrong right!

Or do you think that the courts, the other state agencies looking into these wrongdoings are all but biased, politically motivated, misguided, they all are wrong and on the false path?

Yes

Your, opinion, doesn't make a wrong right!

Is it the old way, that finally the well has to go tho the bucket, then right becomes wrong, wrong becomes rght?

I don't think so, gotta play by the rules, ALL of us!

At last we agree on something. Thai people voted, the current coalition in power is their choice. The occupation of the government house is illegal. We should all play by the same rules, mob power is not one of them.

no we don't, again cheap polemics, trying to turn my word into your gain...elections have been manipulated, it's a crony coalition government, illegal yes, but look at the powers to be, someone thinks it's not that illegal, as in civil disobedience! It's not really"power of the mob" this is an attempt to degrade the genuine but troublesome endeavor to bring about changes to a corrupt and self serving government, from united citizens which are fed up with the proceedings of the power which wrestled themselves to the feeding troughs of the state coffers and aren't afraid since "taxinomics" have been invented, to do so just openly! The tide is going to change!

Give us/Thailand a break!

From what you write, it seems "us" (you) and Thailand share the same opinion. Get real. Actually we, (business sector) will appreciate if you and your hopeless friends give us a break and let us go back to our job : feeding this nation !

You can do your job, I do mine, suffer too, but will not, never ever let $$$ turnover, income dictate my feelings, visions about right and wrong - because if one allows the spread of it, one may find himself and his business one day caught in the same lawless vacuum he helped to create with his silent justification!

Edited by Samuian
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Oh, and please do try and not say YOU are the representative of

the business sector feeding Thailand...

Because it lowers any credibility you have.

You are far from the representative or leader of this segment.

Maybe 'representative', as in an example of, some of it's members at best.

So don't presume to speak for all of it.

It was a reply to Samuian, you take it a bit out of context ...

But so far I didn't met anybody from the business community who support PAD demonstration. Even people very close to the democrats think it's bad for business, bad for the country. Selfish you may say but who's not ?

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So it is clear conflict of interest to hire / stroke the man who can

make or break your business interests.

Well, well, well Monsieur Pierrot is trying to make his point with "Taxinologics", as in

leave a little, add a little, a bit of the truth, just enough to make it sound credible.

Tactics, polemics, none else, far shot in the woods!

Missed the Point, he was suspended from office because he had second job, easy as that, he shouldn't have.

Like Takky, not because the courts are politically bend, no, because he was the guy, the CEO as he loved to call his position, so then he IS responsible!

NO to mention that he usurped this show for rant, for blackmail and badmouthing is opponents, any!

That why people "loved" this show "so much" because people couldn't believe what/whom he was talkinga bout between Soya Sauce, Fried Noodles and Bean Sprouts...in our countries it's called "hidden agenda"!

The next one was, that one of the Sponsors of this show, a well known Sauce Producer, ended up in the Top Level of Thai Airways Executives - at least on their payroll - purely accidentally of course....!

Ah well... it's all business, and all business is good because it's business...Monsieur Pierrot is trying to tell the audience.

Anybody for a car wash, white wash errmm... brain wash!

This week end FREE!

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So it is clear conflict of interest to hire / stroke the man who can

make or break your business interests.

Well, well, well Monsieur Pierrot is trying to make his point with "Taxinologics", as in

leave a little, add a little, a bit of the truth, just enough to make it sound credible.

Tactics, polemics, none else, far shot in the woods!

Missed the Point, he was suspended from office because he had second job, easy as that, he shouldn't have.

Like Takky, not because the courts are politically bend, no, because he was the guy, the CEO as he loved to call his position, so then he IS responsible!

NO to mention that he usurped this show for rant, for blackmail and badmouthing is opponents, any!

That why people "loved" this show "so much" because people couldn't believe what/whom he was talkinga bout between Soya Sauce, Fried Noodles and Bean Sprouts...in our countries it's called "hidden agenda"!

The next one was, that one of the Sponsors of this show, a well known Sauce Producer, ended up in the Top Level of Thai Airways Executives - at least on their payroll - purely accidentally of course....!

Ah well... it's all business, and all business is good because it's business...Monsieur Pierrot is trying to tell the audience.

Anybody for a car wash, white wash errmm... brain wash!

This week end FREE!

Have a good time tonight :o

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The Nation Breaking news, 25-10-2008

Thaksin will be allowed to talk longer than 20 minutes

People Power Party MP Jatuporn Promphan said former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would be allowed to talk longer than 20 minutes during a talk show programme on NBT on November 1.

Jatuporn, a host of the Today's Truth programme, said Thaksin would be allowed to talk longer than 20 minutes to be able to cover all what he wants to talk.

He said the mobile talk show of the programme at the national stadium would not lead to any violence.

Unquote

&lt;deleted&gt; is going on ???

A convicted criminal on the run from justice gets to be allowed to make what is bound to be nothing more than a party political broadcast, along with all it,s obvious implications of the predicable outcome of his self vindication of all that has been taking place in the Supreme courts ect. ect.

marshbags :o

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I do not understand why people are still arguing about this court case. When you read in the international press that the previous PM was kicked out of his post because of his appearance in a cooking show, then you pretend with a straight face that it's not political?

Actually, I agree, it's not political, it's farcical !

Laisse tomber Pierrot.

Tu perds ton temps avec ces ecerveles.

Et la mission civilisatrice Francaise, tu as oublie ???

The Civilization mission (French: Mission civilisatrice) was the underlying principle of French colonial rule in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. ...

On ne fais pas boire un ane qui n'a pas soif...

Not talking to yourself by any chance Pierrot via this newbie vehicle.

You must know what this is a sign of / indicates !!!!!!!!

:D and :D ect. ect.

marshbags :o

Edited by marshbags
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I do not understand why people are still arguing about this court case. When you read in the international press that the previous PM was kicked out of his post because of his appearance in a cooking show, then you pretend with a straight face that it's not political?

Actually, I agree, it's not political, it's farcical !

Laisse tomber Pierrot.

Tu perds ton temps avec ces ecerveles.

Et la mission civilisatrice Francaise, tu as oublie ???

The Civilization mission (French: Mission civilisatrice) was the underlying principle of French colonial rule in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. ...

On ne fais pas boire un ane qui n'a pas soif...

Not talking to yourself by any chance Pierrot via this newbie vehicle.

You must know what this is a sign of / indicates !!!!!!!!

:D and :D ect. ect.

marshbags :o

Not so sure what you imply, but if I have to say something, I don't hide behind nobody.

Can you say the same ?

The Civilization mission (French: Mission civilisatrice) was the underlying principle of French colonial rule in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. ...

Edited by Pierrot
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"Not so sure what you imply, but I have to say something, I don't hide behind nobody." [sic]

Easy.

Easy but clear. Any comment ?

He was referring o your choice of words "I don't hide behind nobody" contains two negatives, resulting in a meaning that you are hiding behind somebody.

"I don't hide behind anybody" would have been correct :o

Edited by globalj
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"Not so sure what you imply, but I have to say something, I don't hide behind nobody." [sic]

Easy.

Easy but clear. Any comment ?

He was referring o your choice of words "I don't hide behind nobody" contains two negatives, resulting in a meaning that you are hiding behind somebody.

"I don't hide behind anybody" would have been correct :D

:o English is not my mother tongue. I apologize for any misunderstanding caused by my poor grasp of the English language :D .

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"Not so sure what you imply, but I have to say something, I don't hide behind nobody." [sic]

Easy.

Easy but clear. Any comment ?

He was referring o your choice of words "I don't hide behind nobody" contains two negatives, resulting in a meaning that you are hiding behind somebody.

"I don't hide behind anybody" would have been correct :D

:o English is not my mother tongue. I apologize for any misunderstanding caused by my poor grasp of the English language :D .

No worries, I don't speak a word of French after all. :D

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Dear Dr. Thaksin,

It has been some time since we last spoke, but I felt the urge to write to you having seen your ‘open letter’ to your ‘friends’ in the international media, dated October 22nd, 2008.

Given the fact that you chose not to face the various criminal and corruption charges against you in Thailand, and given that you are in the process of seeking asylum in the UK, I can understand why you wrote what you did. It’s a shame though, since, once again, you feel compelled to harm the country of your birth in order to protect and promote your own personal interests.

It would have been so much better had you been more honest in your assessment of your predicament. Specifically related to the land procurement case in which you were found guilty of conflict of interest, we would have been interested to hear why it was that your legal team was caught and convicted of blatant attempts to bribe court officials. Furthermore, you are fully aware that the law you broke was the highest law of the land, being an infringement in a key article in the Constitution designed to penalize acts considered criminal on the part of those who hold political office. Indeed, it was a breach of both the 1997 constitution you love as well as the current 2007 constitution that was accepted in a nationwide referendum.

You referred to the ruling against Khun Samak, your chosen heir, and portray the case as a ruling against the fact that he cooked on TV when you know full well that the actual crime was his breach of the Constitution barring those in office from holding paid employment. Your definition of ‘facts’ leaves a lot to be desired and I worry that you actually believe what you are saying.

It is precisely because it is so difficult the world over to actually catch clever politicians with their hands in the till that we have laws against conflicts of interests – it is a reflection of our society’s desire for good governance, not dissimilar to codes of conducts in most leading corporations in the private sector.

It may be true that there are the so-called elites who don’t like you, but I can assure you that there are plenty of grass-root members of the Thai population who are also not too keen on having leaders who cheat. You got away early in your political career with an ‘honest mistake’ when you failed to properly disclose your assets, but how many more of these ‘honest’ mistakes do you think the Thai people should allow you? You are once again charged with hiding assets even now, not least the money you used to buy Manchester City. After all, you no longer even try to pretend that it was not your own money that was used to buy the football club, even though you never disclosed, as was legally required, that you ever had any money overseas.

I won’t go into details about your wife being convicted of tax fraud and the fact that the government you support is still doing every thing they can to distort the course of justice here in Thailand. Frankly, if you really wanted to present facts, you should provide these details yourself. You are right in saying that all Thais are concerned about the direction the country is taking, but I believe that the situation would be much improved if you were to leave us alone to clean up the mess you left us in.

Korn Chatikavanij

Member of Parliament

source : http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1224924179 :o

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