Trial By Tv

[Mossfinn]

I am sure this has been covered before, however it is not on the first two pages so I will bring it up again.

Watching the United v Celtic game tonight, two United goals were clearly off side and Rooney's on side goal disallowed, surely in today's day and age, where the EPL and C.L generate more GDP than a small Nation, some supportive network should be brought in to help.

Moss

BTW what was the score, I turned off soon after the beginning of the second half.

[enyaw]

It beggars belief doesn't it?! Video evidence is a perfect tool for offside decisions and also over the line desputes - there shouldn't even be a need to use an official for these instances, i'm sure with some clever piece of technology a correct decision could be made even before any of the officials have even thought of raising or (in the case of the first 2 goals this evening) keeping the flag down!

[ThaiPauly]

I am sure this has been covered before, however it is not on the first two pages so I will bring it up again.

Watching the United v Celtic game tonight, two United goals were clearly off side and Rooney's on side goal disallowed, surely in today's day and age, where the EPL and C.L generate more GDP than a small Nation, some supportive network should be brought in to help.

Moss

BTW what was the score, I turned off soon after the beginning of the second half.

3-0 Moss

[StevieH]

nope, leave the game alone. it's been pissed about with enough in recent years so leave it be. football without mistakes and controversy would be boring as hel_l.

[PhilHarries]

Difficult question this which is probably why is attracts so much controversy. Who calls for, or imposes, the video evidence? The referee or some comptroller in a video station remote from the field? Who has ultimate authority?

Say a ref sees a dodgy challenge, blows up and asks for video evidence back up. The reply is that the tackle was perfectly legal. How does he restart play? Same with a questionable offside.

I'm with StevieH, the game may be flawed but it aint broke so don't mess with it or we end up with a scenario like American football, four hour long game with 20 minutes of action.

[StevieH]

Difficult question this which is probably why is attracts so much controversy. Who calls for, or imposes, the video evidence? The referee or some comptroller in a video station remote from the field? Who has ultimate authority?

Say a ref sees a dodgy challenge, blows up and asks for video evidence back up. The reply is that the tackle was perfectly legal. How does he restart play? Same with a questionable offside.

I'm with StevieH, the game may be flawed but it aint broke so don't mess with it or we end up with a scenario like American football, four hour long game with 20 minutes of action.

the proposed theory has always been that the referee calls for a video review of an incident which is then carried out by the fourth official on the monitor by the dugouts. fourth official would then inform the ref over the radio mic link.

football would be nothing without stuff to moan about.

[bkkjames]

nope, leave the game alone. it's been pissed about with enough in recent years so leave it be. football without mistakes and controversy would be boring as hel_l.

I am in two minds about this. On one hand I think the game is pretty good as it is and has been.

On the other, I see the merit in giving a coach one challenge per half or something as long as the video evidence can be looked at and decision made within a minute.

Even as a to the bone United fan, the decisions last night were terrible. Both times Berba was offside and Rooney's first goal he obviously wasn't but got called for it.

I am not putting it all on the refs, the game moves at incredible pace at times and everyone is human so why not have a back up to ensure the proper call is made.

It seems to work ok in Rugby, American Football and other sports?

[PhilHarries]

Difficult question this which is probably why is attracts so much controversy. Who calls for, or imposes, the video evidence? The referee or some comptroller in a video station remote from the field? Who has ultimate authority?

Say a ref sees a dodgy challenge, blows up and asks for video evidence back up. The reply is that the tackle was perfectly legal. How does he restart play? Same with a questionable offside.

I'm with StevieH, the game may be flawed but it aint broke so don't mess with it or we end up with a scenario like American football, four hour long game with 20 minutes of action.

the proposed theory has always been that the referee calls for a video review of an incident which is then carried out by the fourth official on the monitor by the dugouts. fourth official would then inform the ref over the radio mic link.

football would be nothing without stuff to moan about.

Whatever system they choose for the implementation the game loses it's fluidity. Even if the decision goes the attacking team's way they've lost the advantage and no amount of free kicks will redress that issue. It's not like snooker where the players could all be returned to their pre-stoppage positions.

[chavy]

Whether we have TV evidence or not remains to be seen. For me, if the game ended up going in the same direction as the "American football" because of trial by TV then we're in trouble. Constant stop start is not an option. Where do we bring in evidence etc etc is the big question.

[bkkjames]

Whether we have TV evidence or not remains to be seen. For me, if the game ended up going in the same direction as the "American football" because of trial by TV then we're in trouble. Constant stop start is not an option. Where do we bring in evidence etc etc is the big question.

Point taken, but when your team loses out because of the next POOR decision, please don't whine on TV about it.

[StevieH]

I am in two minds about this. On one hand I think the game is pretty good as it is and has been.

On the other, I see the merit in giving a coach one challenge per half or something as long as the video evidence can be looked at and decision made within a minute.

Even as a to the bone United fan, the decisions last night were terrible. Both times Berba was offside and Rooney's first goal he obviously wasn't but got called for it.

I am not putting it all on the refs, the game moves at incredible pace at times and everyone is human so why not have a back up to ensure the proper call is made.

It seems to work ok in Rugby, American Football and other sports?

i know where you're coming from man but the cost in terms of game fluidity and spontenaeity would be horrible. plus if you give managers one 'challenge' per half then what happens when there are two controversial incidents in a half? they'll just call for more 'challenges'. there have always been mistakes in football, by managers, players and yep, referees. they're fallible just as the players are.

Whatever system they choose for the implementation the game loses it's fluidity. Even if the decision goes the attacking team's way they've lost the advantage and no amount of free kicks will redress that issue. It's not like snooker where the players could all be returned to their pre-stoppage positions.

you know that crap period of stopped play when a player is down injured receiving treatment? it'd be like that on a more regular basis. and you're spot on, the fluidity of the game would be buggered entirely.

[bkkjames]

There a many that say 'bad / fortunate' decisions even out over time, and I agree with this to a degree.

However I think we all agree that winning the EPL, Champions League, Euro, World Cup for most players and teams is a once in a lifetime achievement - if that.

I don't think I need to list all the wrong decisions overtime in big matches that have cost teams / players a chance at glory either. Let's face it, a poor decision between say West Brom and Stoke will likely have less importance than one say Chelsea vs Barca in a Champions League final.

As a player, coach and fan, would you not want to ensure that the result of a match was based on actuality and not a linesmens / refs subjective view on the matter?

Like I said, people are human and make mistakes so why not have something in-place as a back up in order to ensure that's someone's subjectivity doesn't cost a team, player and supporters that once in a lifetime chance at glory?

FIFA is already experimenting with chips in balls to make sure they actually cross the whole of the goal line.

In the end I would like to not go down this route as well, but thus far this year we have already seen too many poor decisions for it to not warrant consideration. Simple appologies hold little weight in the context of lost points when you are fighting for the title or relegation.

Edited October 22, 2008 by bkkjames

[MSingh]

nope, leave the game alone. it's been pissed about with enough in recent years so leave it be. football without mistakes and controversy would be boring as hel_l.

Agreed, you're opening a can of worms if you allow it because where will it end ??

It will obvioulsy be successful, there's no doubt about that, but in 2 years, what rule will be chosen to have it next ??

Refs & Linesmen have massively difficult Jobs & they make the correct decision 99% of the time, it's juts that 1% that's the problem & unfortunately, as someone said, with the amount of money the Prem & CL generate, it may be more of a Business decision to have TV Technology, which i think is inevetible, rather than a decision to benefit the actual Game, in my opinion..

Just as someone said & can't be argued with, it will be benficial to the Game having the correct decisions implemented in it, it will also undoubtedly slow the Game down & that's my worry..

[bkkjames]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

[delboy]

I well remember the big debate back in the late 50's and early 60's as to whether substitutes should be introduced. The same arguments were put forward "It will disrupt play", "if it ain't broke why fix it" etc. I'd much rather watch a match without "passengers on the wing".

The FA surely has domestic competitions (Carling Cup springs to mind) where TV technology could be introduced as an experiment to be studied buy FIFA, EUFA etc.

The big drawback to it all is the amount of TV coverage available at the smaller league clubs grounds. We all know that Premier League clubs matches are saturated by TV cameras, but what about grounds such as Yeovil or Lincoln? Is there to be one rule for some clubs and another rule for other clubs?

Other technology such as chips in match balls obviously doesn't suffer from those restrictions and could be introduced in a test competition.

[StevieH]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

not at all, i'll moan about crap decisions just as ever. same as i will if a forward misses an open goal or a defender gives away a stupid penalty.

[MSingh]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

James, Refs & Linesman are Human Beings & Human beings make mistakes.

They don't have the advantage that you, Shebby Singh & Andy Gray has of watching an incident from 4 different angles ( which even then don't get right all the time ) & still, they get a very, very minimal amount of decisions wrong...

[bkkjames]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

James, Refs & Linesman are Human Beings & Human beings make mistakes.

They don't have the advantage that you, Shebby Singh & Andy Gray has of watching an incident from 4 different angles ( which even then don't get right all the time ) & still, they get a very, very minimal amount of decisions wrong...

yea but this isn't 1966, this is 2008 nearly 9. The tech is availble to make the beautiful game even more so, unless you like guys like Rob Styles <deleted>*king every match with one of his decisions. If you were Stracken and saw those two offside goals go in last night you would have been livid.

They said the same with tennis, it would ruin the flow but if you asked Roger and Nadal about their 5 set marathon at wimbledon (one of the best, most exciting matches ever), did the video replay of line calls make for a duller match? On the contrary, Nadal beat him fair and square without a disputed out call putting the very legitimacy of the win in question.

Anyways, I am not talking about stopping the game every two minutes to run to the video, but once a half / game (if required) to challenge an offside / handball decision that leads to a goal.

Let's try it in a lower division first and see if it works. If it doesn't then bin it. When they first introduced video replay to the NFL it was a joke, took way too long. Now, its done in under a minute and I think if you ask the owners, players and fans, would they go back, 99.9% would say no way.

[mrbojangles]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

I'm not with the consesus either James.

Use technology. Tennis seems to be a good example. Let the Captain of each team call for video confirmation, a maximum of 2 times per half.

City had a penalty wrongly go against us a couple of weeks ago. This week we had one wrongly go in our favour. Some say this is levelling out. I say 2 wrongs don't make a right.

In Rugby, it is also quite entertaining watching the replay and waiting for the decision.

[thaimiller]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

I'm not with the consesus either James.

Use technology. Tennis seems to be a good example. Let the Captain of each team call for video confirmation, a maximum of 2 times per half.

City had a penalty wrongly go against us a couple of weeks ago. This week we had one wrongly go in our favour. Some say this is levelling out. I say 2 wrongs don't make a right.

In Rugby, it is also quite entertaining watching the replay and waiting for the decision.

over a season it usually levels itself out, i can remember watching the millers at main road in 2001-02 season and one of the city player s punching the ball into the net, the only people in the ground that didn't see it was the ref and his assistants, the same season at the hawthorns we conceded a goal that was clearly 3 feet over the line when our defender cleared it and the ref said no goal, its the unpredictability of football that makes it the game we love to moan about.

[StevieH]

In Rugby, it is also quite entertaining watching the replay and waiting for the decision.

nope, not having that either jangles. that way lies madness and more bloody james brown music. i absolutely fuc_king HATE that clubs now play music over the tannoy when a goal is scored. and the premiership would come up with some appalling equaivalent of the NBA shot clock countdown.

Edited October 22, 2008 by StevieH

[MSingh]

So regarding this 1%, when the crap decisions happen this weekend, can we please all agree not to complain about it here as the consensus is that despite available technology (like in tennis and other sports), we will just live with the human errors at our own peril, kind of roll of the dice so to speak.

Got it, thanks.

James, Refs & Linesman are Human Beings & Human beings make mistakes.

They don't have the advantage that you, Shebby Singh & Andy Gray has of watching an incident from 4 different angles ( which even then don't get right all the time ) & still, they get a very, very minimal amount of decisions wrong...

yea but this isn't 1966, this is 2008 nearly 9. The tech is availble to make the beautiful game even more so, unless you like guys like Rob Styles <deleted>*king every match with one of his decisions. If you were Stracken and saw those two offside goals go in last night you would have been livid.

They said the same with tennis, it would ruin the flow but if you asked Roger and Nadal about their 5 set marathon at wimbledon (one of the best, most exciting matches ever), did the video replay of line calls make for a duller match? On the contrary, Nadal beat him fair and square without a disputed out call putting the very legitimacy of the win in question.

Anyways, I am not talking about stopping the game every two minutes to run to the video, but once a half / game (if required) to challenge an offside / handball decision that leads to a goal.

Let's try it in a lower division first and see if it works. If it doesn't then bin it. When they first introduced video replay to the NFL it was a joke, took way too long. Now, its done in under a minute and I think if you ask the owners, players and fans, would they go back, 99.9% would say no way.

But you're missing the point..

My arguement isn't if it will work or not, of course it will, i don't doubt that..

But it's how long, timewise, it is going to take to be implemented that's the issue imo..

A challenge per half ??

Maybe, but i still think it's opening a Can of worms, what happens for example if someone has a challenge, wins it, then have obvioulsy used their challenge for that half but there is another questionable decision that the Ref gets wrong but that team's " Challenge of the half " has already gone ??

I tell you what would happen, it would have to be stepped up to 2 Challenegs per Half & so on & so forth..

If you implement one piece of Technology into Football then you might as well re write the rules of the Game & not have Human Beings officiating at all but just uise Technology, at least that way EVERY decision will be correct, just like you want it to be..

You can't compare Tennis of NFL to it i'm afraid as neither are anywhere near as free flowing a Game as Football is..

[mrbojangles]

In Rugby, it is also quite entertaining watching the replay and waiting for the decision.

nope, not having that either jangles. that way lies madness and more bloody james brown music. i absolutely fuc_king HATE that clubs now play music over the tannoy when a goal is scored. and the premiership would come up with some appalling equaivalent of the NBA shot clock countdown.

There's no way you can drag some people out of the dark ages, Is there Steve. It's the hype that surrounds football and the technology that allows you to watch matches from a bar in LOS. Something you couldn't have done 20 years ago

How can you say it will ruin the game, without giving it a try first. It certainly hasn't ruined the other sports it's been intorduced in.

[mrbojangles]

what happens for example if someone has a challenge, wins it, then have obvioulsy used their challenge for that half but there is another questionable decision that the Ref gets wrong but that team's " Challenge of the half " has already gone ??

If you win your challenge, you keep it and don't lose it, as you was proved right to challenge the decision in the first place. You only lose your challenge if it was proved wrong.

I think that's the way it happens in Tennis and it seems to work.

[MSingh]

what happens for example if someone has a challenge, wins it, then have obvioulsy used their challenge for that half but there is another questionable decision that the Ref gets wrong but that team's " Challenge of the half " has already gone ??

If you win your challenge, you keep it and don't lose it, as you was proved right to challenge the decision in the first place. You only lose your challenge if it was proved wrong.

I think that's the way it happens in Tennis and it seems to work.

Fair enough, i'll think of another example in the morning..

[ThaiPauly]

Reading's accadamy team were charged with testing out computer technology with a chipped ball 2 years ago for the whole of the season.

I don't know if the trials were a success or not...but nothing has been implimented.

However, I am in favour of it, just to check if the ball goes over the line or not. nothing else.

Remember the debacle at Watford a month ago when Reading were awarded a goal when the ball went out of play a yard wide?

If we go up by a point and Wolves (for example) miss out, I would not be happy if I were a Wolves fan, or player.

A chpped ball...and no goal, even though in that case it would have worked against me, I am still in favour of it