Prenuptials. What Would I Lose?

[Yimmy]

Can someone answer some Q’s I have about getting a prenup. (I know nothing about them.)

I hear it’s best to get one in both countries, that would be Ireland and Thailand. I'm Irish, my GF of 2 years is Thai.

What protection does it offer. Should we marry and divorce. Is it everything we owned prior to the marriage goes to the original owner, and everything purchased post marriage is divided (presumably halved).

We have virtually no assets now anyway, and my specific Q’s are to do with:

At some point in the future I will do one or maybe all of the following:

Buy a condo in my own name.

Purchase or build a house, presumably the land in her name where I 30 year lease it.

Set up a 49/51 company with me as the main shareholder as to control the assets bought (our house, vehical etc.).

And… inheritance. I will at some stage inherit – part or all of an Irish property and Irish Assets.

So….. with a prenup in both countries, should I do/receive all of those, then we divorce at a later stage… is everything halved? Do they all stay with me? I really don’t know.

Thanks.

(btw, I’m just looking for answers, with around 50% of all marriages not lasting the full term I feel it’s best to make sure I’m in control of the things I pay for. Thanks.)

[Yimmy]

Hello???

Could a mod move this into a more appropriate sub forum maybe. I thought this was the section for posting legal questions. Sorry.

[stgrhe]

I may not be able to answer your questions but can give you an advice with regards to prenups in Thailand. First of all, a pre-nuptial agreement, if done correctly, is valid under Thai law. It must be signed by both parties and minimum two witnesses. Furthermore, if a prenup agreement exists then its existence must be entered into the marriage register when (if) you register you marriage in Thailand.

You are Irish you say and my question is whether your Irish law is similar to the English law used in the UK. Under the English law prenuptial agreements are not recognized.

[haltes]

Under the English law prenuptial agreements are not recognized.

This is not 100% true

[Yimmy]

Ok, great, I'll have to check that side of things out.

So with prenups in general....

Both parties keep what they had before the marriage, and divide what they acquired during their marriage?

Even if it was all acquired by just one of them?

I guess it probably goes on case to case situations, but generally speaking is that about the by and large of it?

Thanks.

[tangoll]

I thought the purpose of a prenup agreement is to register each party's consent as to the handling of the assets owned by each at the time of the prenup, in the event of the dissolution of the marriage. If, as you say, you have no assets to speak of right now, there's really no need for a prenup.

If you decide to divorce in the future, then the laws of the jurisdiction governing the divorce and your mutual divorce agreement will determine how you divide the assets you acquired during the time of marriage.

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, in her prenup agreement with Aristotle Onassis, had, I heard, conditions like how many days a week or a month he was entitled to spend with her in her bedroom at night, but I doubt if these are the types of conditions that you are thinking of in your prenup.

[stgrhe]

Under the English law prenuptial agreements are not recognized.

This is not 100% true

Yes I am afraid it is. However, the court might in a divorce case consider the existence of a prenuptial agreement and weigh that into its decision when the ruling is made. Hence, even under the English law it could be useful to have a prenup although one can never be assured how the court will rule should worse come to worse.

[haltes]

Yes I am afraid it is. However, the court might in a divorce case consider the existence of a prenuptial agreement and weigh that into its decision when the ruling is made. Hence, even under the English law it could be useful to have a prenup although one can never be assured how the court will rule should worse come to worse.

A pre-nup could always have persuasive authority in court, and they can and have been recognized in courts. To say they are not recognized (from a legal viewpoint) is just not true. Just make sure that there is no sign of duress and that your partner has competent legal advice as to what they are doing and you have a good chance of having the "fair" parts of a pre-nup enforced.

On an aside and as a legal academic, I would have also thought that if all the other requirements for contract law can be proved (consideration, intention to create legal relations, etc), that a pre-nup would be 100% binding.

For a recent case see Crossley V Crossley 2008 which is the most recent case that I know of relating to Pre-nups and English law. Pre-nups do seem to have some authority under common law.

Ms Crossley abandoned her claim after a judge gave strong weight to a "pre-nup" between them. Last December, Lord Justice Thorpe, in the Appeal Court, described Mrs Crossley's claim as a "paradigm case" for pre-nups, which are currently not binding in English law. Mrs Crossley, 50, finally dropped her claim on the eve of a High Court hearing scheduled to take place yesterday.

"This case could well change opinion in the courts that pre-nups deserve greater legal recognition," said Mrs Dunn. "Such agreements are no longer considered to be the preserve of the "super rich". As more people get remarried and younger professionals marry later there is a greater demand for pre-nups to protect finances."

Edited October 27, 2008 by haltes

[Yimmy]

Ok, that's good info thanks.

Really I guess I'm looking for a legal contract (or similar) that should the marriage dissolve, what I have in my name, bank account etc. isn't split down the middle. I wouldn't leave my partner high and dry. But should 20 or 30 years down the line we grow apart, fall inlove with someone else etc. I couldn't afford to lose half my assets without being put under financial pressure.

The property etc I will have from my country will be good for retirement and future security (I'm under 30), and the money I earn here will be good for buying a house or condo, vehical and a few small businesses by the time I'm 50. So by then I can relax with my house etc. and potter about with a few small businesses with the security of my assets at home.

In 20 years if I lose half of that, I'd be right back down again.

As I'd be gaining/earing all of those within the marriage... is there any method available to guarantee the finances/assets I procure during our marriage (bought under my name with my money) will be under my full control and to be split how I see fit, should the marriage dissolve?

Thanks.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Yimmy

[Bizz]

No prenups in Eire.

[kamalabob2]

Yimmy: Perhaps you should e-mail some attorneys in Bangkok who are native English speakers. They will e-mail you prices for them to draw up a pre nuptial agreement in Thai and English. It seems to me that your future bride will need to consult with an "independent attorney", not in the same law firm, one who is a native Thai speaker PRIOR to you both signing the prenuptial agreement. I know from experience the pre nuptial agreement is registered at the Thailand Government office where you register your legal marriage. But the price for an attorney to draw up a CORRECT pre nuptial agreement that suits both of your needs and concerns is a bargain compared to legal fees "after the fact" if the relationship does not go as you hope. I would also suggest a proper will in Thai and English custom made by a Bangkok attorney for both you AND YOUR WIFE. This along with a future USEFRUCT prepared by an attorney in Thailand will SAVE YOU MONEY IN LEASE TAXES, save a lot of hassle at the Land Department office. 50 baht is the Government fee to register a USEFRUCT in Buriram. Far less government fees, tax, and hassle than registering a land lease.

It is all "step by step", but a QUALIFIED attorney (and they really do exist in Thailand) can put your mind at ease and not damage your pocketbook. I cringe at the memory of some legal fees I paid in California, but similar to California situations, having legal work done PROPERLY in a TIMELY FASHION BEFORE trouble seems to eliminate or minimize trouble and expense down the line. You can retain an experienced attorney who is a native English speaker at a very fair fee in Bangkok. You can get firm prices via e-mail for wills, pre nuptial agreements, usefruct, easements, etc... I've been very satisfied with the advise, service and fair fees of Attorney William White in Bangkok.

[haltes]

Normally (and this is true for many jurisdictions), assets you bring to amarriage are not considered part of a subsequent divorce settlement i.e. they can only take into account assets accrued during the lifetime of the marriage.

[RAZZELL]

Ok, that's good info thanks.

Really I guess I'm looking for a legal contract (or similar) that should the marriage dissolve, what I have in my name, bank account etc. isn't split down the middle. I wouldn't leave my partner high and dry. But should 20 or 30 years down the line we grow apart, fall inlove with someone else etc. I couldn't afford to lose half my assets without being put under financial pressure.

The property etc I will have from my country will be good for retirement and future security (I'm under 30), and the money I earn here will be good for buying a house or condo, vehical and a few small businesses by the time I'm 50. So by then I can relax with my house etc. and potter about with a few small businesses with the security of my assets at home.

In 20 years if I lose half of that, I'd be right back down again.

As I'd be gaining/earing all of those within the marriage... is there any method available to guarantee the finances/assets I procure during our marriage (bought under my name with my money) will be under my full control and to be split how I see fit, should the marriage dissolve?

Thanks.

Sorry mate...it's called marriage what your's is hers!

On a serious note, I believe what you are looking for doesn't exist.

RAZZ