Mahanakai Or Thammayud?

[khaowong1]

I would like to ask my learned collegues, which sect in Thailand is it easier to ordain at and easier for a farang to understand. When ever I ask this question of a Thai monk, I pretty much don't get an answer. I would also like to know the difference in teaching of the two. Mahanakai - Thammayud. I probably misspelled them both. Sorry

[Groongthep]

I would like to ask my learned collegues, which sect in Thailand is it easier to ordain at and easier for a farang to understand. When ever I ask this question of a Thai monk, I pretty much don't get an answer. I would also like to know the difference in teaching of the two. Mahanakai - Thammayud. I probably misspelled them both. Sorry

I don't know which would be easier to ordain into or easier for a farang to understand, but I do know that both sects are orders of the same Thai Theravada Buddhism and so the core teachings of both are essentially the same. The Dhammayut order however, which was established by King Mongkut in the mid 1800s is generally considered to be the more strict of the two and is known for enforcing the rules of the Vinaya more closely. Those monks you see on busses smoking cigarettes, handling money and talking on mobile phones are most likely (but not necessarily) Maha Nikai monks. Because it was established by King Mongkut, the Dhammayut order is more often associated with the monarchy and is the sect the present king ordained into many years ago. The late reformer monks Buddhadassa Bhikku and Phra Panyanandha however were of the Maha Nikai sect as is the very popular (but not so reformist) monk Luang Por Koon. I have read that in Thailand Maha Nikai wats out number Dhammayut wats about 5 to 1 but I can't remember where I read that and can't back it up with any references right now. I'm sure a quick google search would lead you to some material on the subject and the actual numbers. I know that both sects accept farangs for ordination if the abbot in the wat you wish to attend finds you acceptable. It would be my guess however, that the Dhammayut order would be the much more austere of the two.

[khaowong1]

I would like to ask my learned collegues, which sect in Thailand is it easier to ordain at and easier for a farang to understand. When ever I ask this question of a Thai monk, I pretty much don't get an answer. I would also like to know the difference in teaching of the two. Mahanakai - Thammayud. I probably misspelled them both. Sorry

I don't know which would be easier to ordain into or easier for a farang to understand, but I do know that both sects are orders of the same Thai Theravada Buddhism and so the core teachings of both are essentially the same. The Dhammayut order however, which was established by King Mongkut in the mid 1800s is generally considered to be the more strict of the two and is known for enforcing the rules of the Vinaya more closely. Those monks you see on busses smoking cigarettes, handling money and talking on mobile phones are most likely (but not necessarily) Maha Nikai monks. Because it was established by King Mongkut, the Dhammayut order is more often associated with the monarchy and is the sect the present king ordained into many years ago. The late reformer monks Buddhadassa Bhikku and Phra Panyanandha however were of the Maha Nikai sect as is the very popular (but not so reformist) monk Luang Por Koon. I have read that in Thailand Maha Nikai wats out number Dhammayut wats about 5 to 1 but I can't remember where I read that and can't back it up with any references right now. I'm sure a quick google search would lead you to some material on the subject and the actual numbers. I know that both sects accept farangs for ordination if the abbot in the wat you wish to attend finds you acceptable. It would be my guess however, that the Dhammayut order would be the much more austere of the two.

Thanks Groonthep, that is pretty much what I thought also. I didn't know that about Buddhadassa Bhikku, Phra Panyanandha or Luang Por Koon. How about Ajahn Chah or even further back Luang Por Mun? I find it fascinating to see what sects these different guru monks belonged to. I was ordained for three months with a temple North of Bangkok, Wat Phua U Dom, and it was a Dhammayut temple. They were very strict although I enjoyed being with them. Now I am thinking of ordaining again, but can't make up my mind which sect to try. I go to a Maha Nikai country temple in Lopburi, and like them very much. Your answers are helping me make a decision. Thanks again.

[Brucenkhamen]

They are pretty much the same as far as I can tell. In theory Dhammayut is more strict and more likely to be a Forest Wat but I think it depends more on the teaching lineage that it comes from.

The Dhammayut Wat I ordained at was a branch monestary of Luangta Maha Boowa and is suppopsed to be one of the strictest however I found it less strict than Wat Pah Nanachaat a Mahanikaya Wat of the Ajahn Chah lineage.

The former is easier to get an ordination in, the latter expects a 5 year commitment.

[khaowong1]

They are pretty much the same as far as I can tell. In theory Dhammayut is more strict and more likely to be a Forest Wat but I think it depends more on the teaching lineage that it comes from.

The Dhammayut Wat I ordained at was a branch monestary of Luangta Maha Boowa and is suppopsed to be one of the strictest however I found it less strict than Wat Pah Nanachaat a Mahanikaya Wat of the Ajahn Chah lineage.

The former is easier to get an ordination in, the latter expects a 5 year commitment.

I talk to a phra Martin up at Wat where Luanta Maha Boowa is, do you know him? I think he is a German and has been there for 13 years.

[Brucenkhamen]

They are pretty much the same as far as I can tell. In theory Dhammayut is more strict and more likely to be a Forest Wat but I think it depends more on the teaching lineage that it comes from.

The Dhammayut Wat I ordained at was a branch monestary of Luangta Maha Boowa and is suppopsed to be one of the strictest however I found it less strict than Wat Pah Nanachaat a Mahanikaya Wat of the Ajahn Chah lineage.

The former is easier to get an ordination in, the latter expects a 5 year commitment.

I talk to a phra Martin up at Wat where Luanta Maha Boowa is, do you know him? I think he is a German and has been there for 13 years.

I remember a German monk but don't recall his name.

[phloiwang]

Hi guy

IMO, perhaps there are 4 sects of Thai Terawat Buddhism, i.e., Mahaniguy, Tammayut, Tammaguy and Asoke.

The first one is the traditional sect to which the most wats in towns and villages belong. It seems to me there is occultism mixed in it but I don't know why and who knows. I just guess the magic should be influenced from Khmer, now Cambodia,which once was a power of the region. Actually, Thai society had been familiar with magic over time until a few decades ago when education in school was introduced. But some say the sorcery still exists now but very hard for outsiders to know.

The second sect, Tamayut is considered to be strict. As far as I know, King Monggut , while being a monk, was bored with monks in Mahaniguy. He then founded this sect to push more disciplines to monks. The Tripidok is what the monks of this sect always and seriously hold firm. Maybe most of Forest monks belong to this sect. The most revered master of them is probably Luangpu Man, who is believed to attain arahantship. The famous monk at present time are mostly Luangpu's disciples - first, second, third or even fourth generation after that arahant nippaned.

The third one, Tammaguy, was informally founded a few decades ago. This group is seen as new intellectuals coz many of its monks are bachelors, masters or even doctors in all branches. Luangpu Sod is seen as their master of Tammaguy subject. Thousands of lay men and women doing Tammaguy meditation in large hall is their prominent point. Their DMC channel is also interesting due to its well-organized programs. But the most stunning aspect, for me, is the way the monk is able to answer of where inquirers' late loved ones have gone to which realms, among other perplexed infinite inquiries.

The last sect, Asoke, is founded by samana Potirak nearly 40 years ago. The monk and their disciples introduced vegetarianism to Thai society. Their communities are like Thai ways of life in the past- simple,friendly,generous, helpful and yes- land of smiles. The monks are seen to be very strict but never go away to find peace outside human societies. Its prominent point is silas, precepts. The different point of view that sorts them out from other sects is chan - samati or wipassana meditation. According to the eightfold paths, their samati/meditation is resulted from practising first upto seventh paths. Therefore, they practise a little in ( eyes closed )meditation. If asked why, they will reply that the meditation practised around the world does not belong to Buddhism. True Buddhism samati/meditation automatically occurs when people practise first to seventh paths.

This is an outline of sects in my opinion. The details of each are your own duty, man.

[bankei]

Maybe a better word than 'sect' is lineage or ordination lineage (Nikaya in Pali, Nikaai in Thai).

There are only 2 nikaya in Thailand - Dhammayutika and Mahanikaya (in Pali).

Santi Asoke monks all belong to one of these sects. I think their former leader as a member of the Mahanikaya - but he was stripped of his robes - though i think he still claims to be a monk as he has never formally give up his ordination.

The Dhammakaya monks belong to the Mahanikaya too.

Probably you could describe both as sects as they have their own variations on the teachings - often considered unorthodox.

The Dhammayut was established in the 1800s by the prince monk Mongkut who considered Thai Buddhism at the time to be corrput and the monks not properly ordained according to correct proceedures. Mongkut sort out some Mon monks and took re-ordination (after initially ordaining under Thai monks). He was so concerned with following the commentarial regualtions on ordaining that he redid the proceedure about 9 times.

Gradually the number of monks ordaining under this lineage increased and they considered the other monks with disdain. They refused to conduct ceremonies with them. The original group of monks in Thailand came to be know of the Mahanikaya meaning the great/big group. After a while the Dhammayut was recognised as a separate sect.

So from the beginning the majority of monks was Mahanikaya. These days there are still many more Mahanikay monks and temples and this is one practical reason to ordain into this group. Monks of the 2 nikaya do mix, but generally they only stay in their own temples.

Dhammayut monks were more strict, and maybe still are, but it is hard to generalise as there are strict Mahanikaya ones (such as Acharn Cha group monks) and lax Dhammayut ones.

The teachings should be the same in each group, but there are slight variations in the wording on the ordination ceremonies. The chants used also differ slightly.

Edited November 2, 2008 by bankei

[sabaijai]

That's correct, there are only two recognized monastic sects or schools in Thailand. Santi Asoke has no official recognition in the Thai Sangha, and monks belonging to the Dhammakaya cult are usually members of the Mahanikai sect.

[phloiwang]

It's up to which perspective / norm you use to sort thing out.

In case of Tammaguy

Its Buddha image and church are created differently and uniquely. This style hasn't been imitated and accepted by other traditional wats. Tammaguy subject, its abbot has always said, was discovered by Luangpu Sod only, its official initiator.

In case of Asoke

Asoke has confirmed its ( partly ) different interpretation of the Tripidok as true. The way that Mahatera Society stripped it from that society is only the worldly way. But the society could not strip Asoke from Buddha's Dhamma in case Asoke has observed it in its unique own way. After Lord Bhudda's Parinippan, Is there anyone living now can recommend which linage of Dhamma is Lord Bhudda' s authentic and original?

[Rinrada]

Dont know what one it was but quite enjoyed it......I am the white monk...obviously...

[sabaijai]

It's up to which perspective / norm you use to sort thing out.

In case of Tammaguy

Its Buddha image and church are created differently and uniquely. This style hasn't been imitated and accepted by other traditional wats. Tammaguy subject, its abbot has always said, was discovered by Luangpu Sod only, its official initiator.

In case of Asoke

Asoke has confirmed its ( partly ) different interpretation of the Tripidok as true. The way that Mahatera Society stripped it from that society is only the worldly way. But the society could not strip Asoke from Buddha's Dhamma in case Asoke has observed it in its unique own way. After Lord Bhudda's Parinippan, Is there anyone living now can recommend which linage of Dhamma is Lord Bhudda' s authentic and original?

Any of us can go out and start our own sect and call if whatever we want. I was noting the official sects according to the Thai Sangha Act and Department of Religious Affairs. Any academic source on Thai history and Thai Buddhism will state the same, that there are two official monastic sects in Thailand.

[khaojao]

I would like to ask my learned collegues, which sect in Thailand is it easier to ordain at and easier for a farang to understand. When ever I ask this question of a Thai monk, I pretty much don't get an answer. I would also like to know the difference in teaching of the two. Mahanakai - Thammayud. I probably misspelled them both. Sorry

hi khaowong1,

i think the important question is not to ask which lineage you want to ordain in, but rather, what would you like to achieve in your ordination. if your interests is more in the learning of scriptures (ie. scholastic purposes) then you will fare better in a city monastery which emphasizes on studies. if, on the other hand, you would prefer to do more contemplative work and meditate, then you might find a forest based temple more suited. generally speaking, the mahanikay lineage is more academic while the thammayut lineage focuses more on meditation. this is a general statement tho' as i have seen some mahaniyakay lineage temples focusing more on practise than thammayut temples. and i have seen some thammayut temples dabbling in more ritualistic stuff than practise.

Edited November 14, 2008 by khaojao

[fabianfred]

Best to choose a Temple which practises in the way you would prefer to and where the abbot is well respected by the locals, then join that, whichever sect it belongs to. There are good and bad examples of both to be found. A lax abbot will have a temple full of lax monks and novices...an atmosphere in which a monk determined to practise will find himself at odds and unable to do so. Most westerners interested in ordaining prefer the stricter meditation type of temple, rather than those where the monks are studying for Pali degrees or similar. Knowing the scriptures off by heart will get you no closer to Nirvana unless you practise too.

The Dhammkaya is really a different form of meditation from the traditional vipassana and samatha styles. Although the dhammakaya is still really samatha (concentration) meditation. The founder was Luang por Sod at Wat Pak nam. He found and started to practise the style by himself. After his death it was continued by his disciples. It is not very well known, that Luang Por Sod studied and practised Vipassana at Wat Mahathat in Bangkok, but he knew that his time left was too short to change over and start to teach Vipassana. Although his personal practise took him to the Arahant stage, he didn't have enough time left to gain the experience in order to teach it to others. After his death his followers destroyed evidence that he had studied vipassana, because they wanted to each only dhammakaya.

I believe the King of Thailand was ordained on two seperate occasions...once as Dhammayut and once as Mahanikaya... a week each time.

[Groongthep]

Although his personal practise took him to the Arahant stage, ............

I thought your post was very good except for this observation. How would anyone ever know for sure if someone else had reached the Arahant stage? Seems to me, only the person himself would be able to determine this, and if one was to start pronouncing it to others, it would make me suspect.

[fabianfred]

Although his personal practise took him to the Arahant stage, ............

I thought your post was very good except for this observation. How would anyone ever know for sure if someone else had reached the Arahant stage? Seems to me, only the person himself would be able to determine this, and if one was to start pronouncing it to others, it would make me suspect.

He never said it himself...... that would be a Parachicca offense......uwat uttari manussadham thi mai mii nay ton

It was spoken of by his teacher and preceptor (at Wat Mahathat) to another student who is now knowen as luang Por jaran the abbot of wat Amphawan Singhburi.... who was both a student of Luang Por Sod and wat mahathat...and is now also considered to be an Arahant ( again not admitted by himself)

[luangtom]

I find all of this information quite fascinating and informative. I do find that the wats outside of Thailand that have Thai and Lao monks in them are far less prone to advocate Mahanakai or Dhammayut designations when learning of their teachings. As a matter of fact, I have come in contact with monks of both sects at the same wats outside of Thailand in rural USA. I find it as another poster said, one has to ask himself which branch will best serve your personal goals in attaining another ordination and life as a monk. The two sects of Buddhism have deviants in their lineages, persons that are ordained, but do not fulfill their vows and follow the monastic code. While recently traveling in Thailand I observed two monks dining at a sidewalk cafe' and asked of my brother-in-law what was up with that? No alms-rounds? He said, "Oh, those are education monks. It is okay for them to do this." My, how times have changed. I would do what was best for my goals in being ordained and would follow that path to wherever it is you wish to go with it. Chok dee.

[fabianfred]

By 'education monks' your friend obviously refers to the novices and monks who are only in it for the free education, and are not intending to stay for life....

Well they have a shock coming to them....they are still supposed to keep the Pattimokkha 227 precepts...or ten of a novice. If they do not then they are creating much negative karma for themselves and will have to suffer the consequences.

Luang por Jaran of Wat Amphawan, Singhburi has said that nowadays monks fall into hel_l like the leaves falling from the trees during autumn. They are supposed to lead a good example and if not keeping their precepts they are cheating the community who support them, and therefore create twice as much bad karma than a layperson would. Simple...if they cannot keep the monks rules then they should disrobe....it would cause them less harm. They also contribute to a loss of faith in some Thais who might then become easy targets for Christian missionaries and thence lose a golden opportunity.

[rockyysdt]

If they do not then they are creating much negative karma for themselves and will have to suffer the consequences.

Luang por Jaran of Wat Amphawan, Singhburi has said that nowadays monks fall into hel_l like the leaves falling from the trees during autumn. They are supposed to lead a good example and if not keeping their precepts they are cheating the community who support them, and therefore create twice as much bad karma than a layperson would.

Very frightening outcome.

Perhaps this should be widely taught.

[bankei]

Technically, or legally, there are only 2 Nikaya in Thailand - Mahanikaya and Dhammayutika Nikaya - but there are many sub groupings, but these all belong to one of these. Acharn Chah group monks belong to the Mahanikaya, but they tend to keep to themselves and don't really mix without monks of the same nikaya when conducting offical business (sanghakamma).

One exception is the Santi Asoke group. The leader and some or most of his students where expelled from the sangha around 20 years ago. The leader, Phra Bodhirak was forceably stripped of his robes although he has never given up the monkhood and still maintains he is a Bhikkhu but to prevent being arrested again he dresses in a different colour robes. This is an interesting case as there were no allegations that he commited any of the disrobbing offences (parajika) but he did commit some more minor offences such as acting as a preceptor without a licence and without having the 10 years as a monk required by the vinaya.

[Xangsamhua]

One exception is the Santi Asoke group. The leader and some or most of his students where expelled from the sangha around 20 years ago. The leader, Phra Bodhirak was forceably stripped of his robes although he has never given up the monkhood and still maintains he is a Bhikkhu but to prevent being arrested again he dresses in a different colour robes. This is an interesting case as there were no allegations that he commited any of the disrobbing offences (parajika) but he did commit some more minor offences such as acting as a preceptor without a licence and without having the 10 years as a monk required by the vinaya.

Santi Asoke samanas (monks), including Samana Photirak, and sikkamats (nuns) wear brown robes. During the time they were under legal challenge from the State Buddhist leaders (late 80s to mid 90s), they wore white robes over brown, but now they have reverted to brown and, as far as I know the State Buddhist leadership (Council of Elders) has stopped campaigning against them.

They have lively centres, including monastic communities (male and female), schools, farms and small enterprises in seven or eight locations around the country. The core lay followers are very disciplined and puritanical. Vegetarian (vegan, I think), one meal a day, work without pay in Santi Asoke enterprises. They can be identified by their dark blue country-style clothing and, when in the general vicinity of a Centre, bare feet. Sounds cultish, but in fact isn't, from my observation. Of course, there are many sympathisers who may attend Dhamma talks, buy books and CDs, patronise the vegetarian restaurants and supermarkets etc. without making a more rigorous commitment to Santi Asoke.

Donations are not accepted by the organisation until a would-be donor has visited an Asoke centre at least seven times and is seen to be familiar with SA philosophy and activities. Income is derived from sale of produce, books, CDs, food etc.

[bankei]

I just came across a decent website on Thai Buddhism with a page on the difference between Thammayut and Mahanikaya:

http://www.thaibuddhism.net/maha_tham.htm

Also they have an interesting page on Santi Asoke too. Seems Bodhirak was Thammayut and then changed to Mahanikaya and then back to Thammayut again without giving up his Mahanikay status. ie he was both???

http://www.thaibuddhism.net/Bodhirak.htm

[bow]

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but has this some connection to the colours of the robes.

I have seen orange robes, brown-orange and on a few occasions dark brown(with a touch of red).

[Brucenkhamen]

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but has this some connection to the colours of the robes.

I have seen orange robes, brown-orange and on a few occasions dark brown(with a touch of red).

Not really. The flourescent orange are factory produced and are only worn by village monks or novices.

The various shades of brown are often made and dyed by monks themselves, these could equally be Mahanikaya or Dhammayut, the shade will depend on what colour batch of dye was available that week more than anything.

[bankei]

Different Wats chose different colour robes. Generally the so called forest monks have the darker yellow robes. THe bright flourescent robes are usually city monks of the Mahanikaya and the reddish robes are more of the Burmese influenced monks. But this is not always the case

[ThurfirHawat]

Great to have stumbled upon this forum. As some of you have ordained before i'm hoping you can answer some of my questions that my thai friends haven't been able to answer. When you ordain, do you get some sort of permit allowing you to stay in thailand for 90 days, or less, or more? Do you have to make a trek all the way into bangkok to get it stamped and reprocessed once it's up or will the temple do it for you? should i just go to thailand, ordain, then worry about the paperwork? what will i need to ordain / after ordination? what is the ordination ceremony like for a farang? i know it differs on the temple, but can you give me an idea of what to expect?

my plan is to go to thailand with just some clothes (as well documents) and ordain. what can i expect?

[fabianfred]

Getting ordained as a monk is not a quick and simple thing for foreigners anymore in Thailand. They usually want to see some commitment first....and have had their fingers burned by a few individuals who only wanted to get a one year visa and left immediately after getting it.

I was not aware until recently that the one year 'R' visa given to ordained monks is also available to Novices. I suppose it must be like that because the International forest monestary at Ubon usually requires newcomers to be in white for about six months followed by a year as a novice, so they must also get the 'R' visas.

Once ordained one has to take a letter from the Abbot to the Ministry of Religious affairs in Bangkok where you get another letter and take these to Immigration to get the 'R' visa, which should be good for a year.