Property Crisis ?

[donx]

Let's be honest here. As much as Thailand is a great place to SPEND money I do not believe, 1. Our 'investments' could not be wrestled from us simply by a change in the interpretation of the law let alone an actual change in the law (the Thai's may not have a word for 'retrospective'), 2. If you wanted to get a lot of money out of Thailand, which I have never tried, it's a one way street, I reckon we'd all struggle.

However, I speak from experience here, life is short, the West is in reality quite a hard and miserable experience and Thailand has actually given me a life, rather than simply being a commercial android in the UK (terrible, terrible place).

I've SPENT hundreds of thousands of POUNDS in Thailand and regret not one penny. For all I know we live once only. However, everything I've SPENT I 'mark-to-model' and the model says 'once you've spent it, it's gone'. We still enjoy the benefits of what we have bought, but in truth we're only renting.

Okay I'm probably being a little pessimistic, or rather realistic? Anything I do get back in the future will be a bonus. But if I don't, I will have no regrets.

Sorry if I came across rude there old chap, I didn't mean it. I used to think like you do, but I've seen and heard enough over the years in Thailand to know it's not the most litigiously secure environment to invest in.

Just enjoy it.

No problem. The reason things get so confused here is that house ownership and Condominium ownership issues get lumped together. There is absolutely no correlation whatsoever. Indeed even in the condominium market it really, really, depends on what you buy and where you buy. It's all really very subjective stuff indeed.

Many of us on this forum are actually Farang/Farang and we can, and do, hold freehold condominiums. You can take out as much as you bring in for a condominium purchase (49% Farang quota) and this is done all the time (just keep the receipts and apply for the correct documentation there is loads of info on this on thaivisa). Age does come into it I will be 50 next year, retirement visa time.

Additionally I have just returned to the UK from The Park and was staggered to find the small sales unit still in operation now dealing with resales! We are seeing a 65% increase in values from launch prices. All units were fully paid for on transfer and 3 years service charges paid in advance, so no problems there.

Again its horses for courses - 30k GBP can be very significant to some posters and the 80m THB 'The Park' penthouses (which I don't own ) are small change to others. From a personal perspective I have done well on my initial 14.5m THB investment, and most importantly it is not actually 'an investment' except in being a home! I currently have no plans to either sell nor rent but am rapidly becoming inundated with such requests -my experiences appear to be very different to yours.

I'm 33, so a way to go yet. I do consider what I have spent an investment for my family (mainly daughter) who can own and really I think kids is all that matters. So yes, it just depends on the interpretation of the word investment.

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

[pkrv]

Let's be honest here. As much as Thailand is a great place to SPEND money I do not believe, 1. Our 'investments' could not be wrestled from us simply by a change in the interpretation of the law let alone an actual change in the law (the Thai's may not have a word for 'retrospective'), 2. If you wanted to get a lot of money out of Thailand, which I have never tried, it's a one way street, I reckon we'd all struggle.

However, I speak from experience here, life is short, the West is in reality quite a hard and miserable experience and Thailand has actually given me a life, rather than simply being a commercial android in the UK (terrible, terrible place).

I've SPENT hundreds of thousands of POUNDS in Thailand and regret not one penny. For all I know we live once only. However, everything I've SPENT I 'mark-to-model' and the model says 'once you've spent it, it's gone'. We still enjoy the benefits of what we have bought, but in truth we're only renting.

Okay I'm probably being a little pessimistic, or rather realistic? Anything I do get back in the future will be a bonus. But if I don't, I will have no regrets.

Sorry if I came across rude there old chap, I didn't mean it. I used to think like you do, but I've seen and heard enough over the years in Thailand to know it's not the most litigiously secure environment to invest in.

Just enjoy it.

No problem. The reason things get so confused here is that house ownership and Condominium ownership issues get lumped together. There is absolutely no correlation whatsoever. Indeed even in the condominium market it really, really, depends on what you buy and where you buy. It's all really very subjective stuff indeed.

Many of us on this forum are actually Farang/Farang and we can, and do, hold freehold condominiums. You can take out as much as you bring in for a condominium purchase (49% Farang quota) and this is done all the time (just keep the receipts and apply for the correct documentation there is loads of info on this on thaivisa). Age does come into it I will be 50 next year, retirement visa time.

Additionally I have just returned to the UK from The Park and was staggered to find the small sales unit still in operation now dealing with resales! We are seeing a 65% increase in values from launch prices. All units were fully paid for on transfer and 3 years service charges paid in advance, so no problems there.

Again its horses for courses - 30k GBP can be very significant to some posters and the 80m THB 'The Park' penthouses (which I don't own ) are small change to others. From a personal perspective I have done well on my initial 14.5m THB investment, and most importantly it is not actually 'an investment' except in being a home! I currently have no plans to either sell nor rent but am rapidly becoming inundated with such requests -my experiences appear to be very different to yours.

I'm 33, so a way to go yet. I do consider what I have spent an investment for my family (mainly daughter) who can own and really I think kids is all that matters. So yes, it just depends on the interpretation of the word investment.

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

Donx - thanks for the thoughts - I can only agree with you it is a lifestyle choice, that's it.

Edited November 11, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

But hold on a minute donx ! Not all of us are committed to family life ! Some of us really enjoy the freedom

of being single. The conditions you mentioned in your post all rely on being married and / or involving other family members.

I wish you an entire life on matrimonial bliss but we know from the statistics that not everyone will do so

in their lives. Under the circumstances you cannot just liquidate 100% of your assets and take them with you somewhere else

because another party already has a share of that by now..............!

Your continued enjoyment of the property is always dependent on the involvement of others

and any potential liquidation will definitely involve others. These are the differences MJP

was alluding to and why he said once spent you'll never get 100 percent of your money back in your name

unlike in other places

[MJP]

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

But hold on a minute donx ! Not all of us are committed to family life ! Some of us really enjoy the freedom

of being single. The conditions you mentioned in your post all rely on being married and / or involving other family members.

I wish you an entire life on matrimonial bliss but we know from the statistics that not everyone will do so

in their lives. Under the circumstances you cannot just liquidate 100% of your assets and take them with you somewhere else

because another party already has a share of that by now..............!

Your continued enjoyment of the property is always dependent on the involvement of others

and any potential liquidation will definitely involve others. These are the differences MJP

was alluding to and why he said once spent you'll never get 100 percent of your money back in your name

unlike in other places

Yes Midas, same as that. It's different again if you have children, because that's why you go to work, buy houses, land etc. It's all about them in the end. I believe any investments I make are in fact 100% safe, because it's all for them, not me.

If it was just me, on my own, Thailand's the last place I would 'invest'. Renting would be the only option.

Edited November 11, 2008 by MJP

[Pakboong]

Every global economic indicator suggest that the next several years will not be good for investors in the traditional sense. Property values will likely decline as will jobs, salaries, etc.... Might be a good time to rent and sit tight. Sitting on cash can be a viable investment strategy in uncertain times such as those we are about to face.

[MJP]

Every global economic indicator suggest that the next several years will not be good for investors in the traditional sense. Property values will likely decline as will jobs, salaries, etc.... Might be a good time to rent and sit tight. Sitting on cash can be a viable investment strategy in uncertain times such as those we are about to face.

Oh, I'd say those times were pretty certain Pakboong. We are certainly going into a global recession with many countries facing a depression. I honestly believe the UK is in for the latter.

[donx]

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

But hold on a minute donx ! Not all of us are committed to family life ! Some of us really enjoy the freedom

of being single. The conditions you mentioned in your post all rely on being married and / or involving other family members.

I wish you an entire life on matrimonial bliss but we know from the statistics that not everyone will do so

in their lives. Under the circumstances you cannot just liquidate 100% of your assets and take them with you somewhere else

because another party already has a share of that by now..............!

Your continued enjoyment of the property is always dependent on the involvement of others

and any potential liquidation will definitely involve others. These are the differences MJP

was alluding to and why he said once spent you'll never get 100 percent of your money back in your name

unlike in other places

Yes Midas, same as that. It's different again if you have children, because that's why you go to work, buy houses, land etc. It's all about them in the end. I believe any investments I make are in fact 100% safe, because it's all for them, not me.

If it was just me, on my own, Thailand's the last place I would 'invest'. Renting would be the only option.

In my situation, I share the same sentiment as MJP.

midas, why so many exclamation points? If you read what I wrote you will see that I explicitly said "For me ..." I'm not expecting everyone to be married and have kids. Notice what I also said about pkrv's decision. His choice was good for him. I believe my choices have been good for me. I have no desire to liquidate my assets. I don't even see them as my assets at all. They are family assets. If you don't have a family then by all means do something else. I never suggested that you or anyone else do as I do. All I am saying is that you can be happy with carefully selected purchases whether they are condos, houses, or raw land.

Getting 100 percent of your money back from property purchased 3 years ago in the US is also very difficult. So what? US stock values have dropped more than 25 % in the last few months. Some times you win, some times you lose with investments no matter what or where they are. I am happy with all that I have invested in Thailand even if I never see a baht of it again.

[midas]

midas, why so many exclamation points? If you read what I wrote you will see that I explicitly said "For me ..." I'm not expecting everyone to be married and have kids. Notice what I also said about pkrv's decision. His choice was good for him. I believe my choices have been good for me. I have no desire to liquidate my assets. I don't even see them as my assets at all. They are family assets. If you don't have a family then by all means do something else. I never suggested that you or anyone else do as I do. All I am saying is that you can be happy with carefully selected purchases whether they are condos, houses, or raw land.

Getting 100 percent of your money back from property purchased 3 years ago in the US is also very difficult. So what? US stock values have dropped more than 25 % in the last few months. Some times you win, some times you lose with investments no matter what or where they are. I am happy with all that I have invested in Thailand even if I never see a baht of it again.

Ok no more exclamation points. There is no comparison between failing to recoup your investment because of

a change in economic conditions vs. having to share your money because you were forced to have a " partner " ( business partner or matrimonial partner )

as a prerequisite to being able to own the asset in the first place.

[think_too_mut]

I am happy with all that I have invested in Thailand even if I never see a baht of it again.

That's not investing.

[Old Man River]

I think pkrv made a good home/investment decision. It wasn't without a lot of frustration as he has attested to in the past. That's one of the risks with buying condos off-plan. But now he is enjoying the fruits of the risk he took.

For me, I have invested money in land for my wife and my children's future as well as farm land for my in-laws to make a living. All this land will end up in my children's names one day. I have no regrets with any of the land purchases we have made. It started with saving my in-law's land from bank forclosure. I then helped pay off a loan to a cousin for another piece of property. Then a few years back we bought 27 rai of rubber tree land. Two years later we sold 17 rai of this and made a 40% profit. We used this money and a bit more to buy a 2.7 rai plot of beachfront property in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

If you choose your purchases carefully, you can do well with either condo or land investments as long as you have a long term perspective and as long as you have good reasons for buying such as for living in it or having in-laws farming it. I know pkrv will enjoy his home for many years to come.

But hold on a minute donx ! Not all of us are committed to family life ! Some of us really enjoy the freedom

of being single. The conditions you mentioned in your post all rely on being married and / or involving other family members.

I wish you an entire life on matrimonial bliss but we know from the statistics that not everyone will do so

in their lives. Under the circumstances you cannot just liquidate 100% of your assets and take them with you somewhere else

because another party already has a share of that by now..............!

Your continued enjoyment of the property is always dependent on the involvement of others

and any potential liquidation will definitely involve others. These are the differences MJP

was alluding to and why he said once spent you'll never get 100 percent of your money back in your name

unlike in other places

Yes Midas, same as that. It's different again if you have children, because that's why you go to work, buy houses, land etc. It's all about them in the end. I believe any investments I make are in fact 100% safe, because it's all for them, not me.

If it was just me, on my own, Thailand's the last place I would 'invest'. Renting would be the only option.

In my situation, I share the same sentiment as MJP.

Same here.

[pkrv]

I am happy with all that I have invested in Thailand even if I never see a baht of it again.

That's not investing.

I think that donx knows with absolute certainty that at some point he will not see a single baht for all his life time efforts. He will be dead, and I suspect will die smiling surrounded by family and friends. This is the investment for some, but quite correctly not everyone aspires to this.

IMO one incredibly important thing that comes out of this type of thread is the sheer amount of interest in this subject for Thailand. This thread would not be possible in the UK the answer is obvious CRASH. But still no one has pointed to this happening in Thailand. Some off the plan condos may be in trouble (I don't know but have seen anecdotal evidence) but also we have seen informed opinion that the last crash though it littered the landscape with skeleton towers actually improved the existing condominium market. Odd that isn't it? For me in today’s environment I would not actually advocate buying off the plan today (tomorrow (figuratively) will almost certainly not be the same as today).

Basically in order to live a good lifestyle I will need to relocate to Thailand for retirement and I suspect many more who have travelled internationally are coming to the same conclusion. It is THE travel hub for Asia (I don't count, nor like Singapore which is too expensive anyway).

[yogi]

thaiand property market is insane....sure it will burst,these fulls r making high buildings without thinking,where r the people to fill this condos?

[pkrv]

thaiand property market is insane....sure it will burst,these fulls r making high buildings without thinking,where r the people to fill this condos?

IMO we have moved on from the last crash in Thailand - information/informed comment is now MUCH more available.

If the laws on condominiums ownership changes permanently, and I dislike the current set up intensely as it makes Thais second class citizens in the same building but more importantly in their own country, then due to the nature of today's world an aging population from the west with pensions stolen, investments worthless will be forced to think outside of the box (home country, house with picket fence (sorry guys you have your own battles to fight )).

You could chose to live in front of a single bar electric fire (that would be used as a last resort in the debths/debts of a bitterly cold winter) in a rundown hovel, or live a better lifestyle in Thailand - For me this was a no brainer, but I am fortunate I travelled the world as a kid, but now people take holidays and can see what is available. I understand that Thailand is a huge tourist destination (and not necessarily for the most 'base' reasons).

All of us who contribute here (and in ever greater numbers) have realised this, have we not?

Edited November 12, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

IMO one incredibly important thing that comes out of this type of thread is the sheer amount of interest in this subject for Thailand. This thread would not be possible in the UK the answer is obvious CRASH. But still no one has pointed to this happening in Thailand. Some off the plan condos may be in trouble (I don't know but have seen anecdotal evidence) but also we have seen informed opinion that the last crash though it littered the landscape with skeleton towers actually improved the existing condominium market. Odd that isn't it? For me in today’s environment I would not actually advocate buying off the plan today (tomorrow (figuratively) will almost certainly not be the same as today).

Basically in order to live a good lifestyle I will need to relocate to Thailand for retirement and I suspect many more who have travelled internationally are coming to the same conclusion. It is THE travel hub for Asia (I don't count, nor like Singapore which is too expensive anyway).

I don't think you could doubt that the implications of this crisis will be worse than 1997 because

it is global not just Asian. The global economy has lost the use of a lot of money so personally I don't see things

evolving this time as they did during the era you describe. You talk about retirement but for many people

around the world their retirement money now looks in jeopardy.

You are also attributing too much importance to Thailand because in 1997 there were not many other choices

in the immediate region. I agree with you about Singapore which I find very uninteresting. But if I hadn't

settled here in Thailand, I think a nice little condominium in Hanoi Vietnam would be very pleasant.

Hanoi is a very interesting city with so much architectural diversity and the range of amenities are growing

all the time.

I know it's not everyones cup of tea but even Phnom Penh is not such a bad city now. The alternatives

to Thailand are there and with such an unfavorable exchange rate for many farangs, I foresee more people

looking at these various alternatives.

[pkrv]

IMO one incredibly important thing that comes out of this type of thread is the sheer amount of interest in this subject for Thailand. This thread would not be possible in the UK the answer is obvious CRASH. But still no one has pointed to this happening in Thailand. Some off the plan condos may be in trouble (I don't know but have seen anecdotal evidence) but also we have seen informed opinion that the last crash though it littered the landscape with skeleton towers actually improved the existing condominium market. Odd that isn't it? For me in today's environment I would not actually advocate buying off the plan today (tomorrow (figuratively) will almost certainly not be the same as today).

Basically in order to live a good lifestyle I will need to relocate to Thailand for retirement and I suspect many more who have travelled internationally are coming to the same conclusion. It is THE travel hub for Asia (I don't count, nor like Singapore which is too expensive anyway).

I don't think you could doubt that the implications of this crisis will be worse than 1997 because

it is global not just Asian. The global economy has lost the use of a lot of money so personally I don't see things

evolving this time as they did during the era you describe. You talk about retirement but for many people

around the world their retirement money now looks in jeopardy.

You are also attributing too much importance to Thailand because in 1997 there were not many other choices

in the immediate region. I agree with you about Singapore which I find very uninteresting. But if I hadn't

settled here in Thailand, I think a nice little condominium in Hanoi Vietnam would be very pleasant.

Hanoi is a very interesting city with so much architectural diversity and the range of amenities are growing

all the time.

I know it's not everyones cup of tea but even Phnom Penh is not such a bad city now. The alternatives

to Thailand are there and with such an unfavorable exchange rate for many farangs, I foresee more people

looking at these various alternatives.

Yes I think you are quite correct. IMO you are ahead of the game some people in the UK still haven't ventured beyond the next village yet (but are becoming increasing rare and will approach the levels of finding rocking horse shit soon).

I too looked at India, Malaysia and Vietnam. Of them I found Malaysia the post proactive but given their laws are based on religion I dismissed that country out of hand.

Vietnam - I did see an article on this - The government did change the laws recently I think (there was a thread on this will try to find the link), something like if you were married to a Vietnamese (or contributed to the nation and were sponsored AKA corruption) you could buy a 30 year lease but could not sell it. Whatever it was it really put me off big time. But yes we all need to keep our eyes peeled and our noses to the ground (even our own language advises us!).

Found the link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Foreigners-A...&hl=vietnam

OK I miss-remembered it's 50 years for a condominium only - NO LAND. Yes the deal was IMO crap - I reitterate I would not touch it with an overextended barge pole. None the less I keep looking...

Edited November 12, 2008 by pkrv

[glyph]

"I think a nice little condominium in Hanoi Vietnam would be very pleasant."

Wow, another Viet Nam acolyte! bingobongo sang its prasises, and told all of us that "smart" money would invest in Viet Nam, not Thailand...and thne the Viet Nam real estate market crashed. Opps!

[midas]

"I think a nice little condominium in Hanoi Vietnam would be very pleasant."

Wow, another Viet Nam acolyte! bingobongo sang its prasises, and told all of us that "smart" money would invest in Viet Nam, not Thailand...and thne the Viet Nam real estate market crashed. Opps!

Oh dear dear glyph there you go again

Go to the bottom of the class for English comprehension failure.

Please show me in my postings where I said I would buy in fact if you read my o

ther post I said I would never buy property in Thailand

so why would I do so in Vietnam. But that doesn't preclude you from living there and enjoying the place

I'm happy with my property in Sydney where I've had excellent capital growth over the years

where its a fully transparent market and where the law is applied to everyone equally -

not one standard for locals and another for foreigners

[pkrv]

"I think a nice little condominium in Hanoi Vietnam would be very pleasant."

Wow, another Viet Nam acolyte! bingobongo sang its prasises, and told all of us that "smart" money would invest in Viet Nam, not Thailand...and thne the Viet Nam real estate market crashed. Opps!

Oh dear dear glyph there you go again

Go to the bottom of the class for English comprehension failure.

Please show me in my postings where I said I would buy in fact if you read my o

ther post I said I would never buy property in Thailand

so why would I do so in Vietnam. But that doesn't preclude you from living there and enjoying the place

I'm happy with my property in Sydney where I've had excellent capital growth over the years

where its a fully transparent market and where the law is applied to everyone equally -

not one standard for locals and another for foreigners

Hi midas - well that is sort of useful information if you read between the lines, you seem to be saying you are renting in Thailand. What would be useful is to know if you are seeing downward pressure on rents.

I guess your interest in this thread is from that perspective?

Edited November 13, 2008 by pkrv

[PattayaParent]

<snip>

Vietnam - I did see an article on this - The government did change the laws recently I think (there was a thread on this will try to find the link), something like if you were married to a Vietnamese (or contributed to the nation and were sponsored AKA corruption) you could buy a 30 year lease but could not sell it. Whatever it was it really put me off big time. But yes we all need to keep our eyes peeled and our noses to the ground (even our own language advises us!).

Found the link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Foreigners-A...&hl=vietnam

OK I miss-remembered it's 50 years for a condominium only - NO LAND. Yes the deal was IMO crap - I reitterate I would not touch it with an overextended barge pole. None the less I keep looking...

You can buy on a 50 year ownership and you CAN sell it, at any time during the 50 years or at the end of the 50 years.

It's not a lease, you own the condo.

[pkrv]

<snip>

Vietnam - I did see an article on this - The government did change the laws recently I think (there was a thread on this will try to find the link), something like if you were married to a Vietnamese (or contributed to the nation and were sponsored AKA corruption) you could buy a 30 year lease but could not sell it. Whatever it was it really put me off big time. But yes we all need to keep our eyes peeled and our noses to the ground (even our own language advises us!).

Found the link

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Foreigners-A...&hl=vietnam

OK I miss-remembered it's 50 years for a condominium only - NO LAND. Yes the deal was IMO crap - I reitterate I would not touch it with an overextended barge pole. None the less I keep looking...

You can buy on a 50 year ownership and you CAN sell it, at any time during the 50 years or at the end of the 50 years.

It's not a lease, you own the condo.

PattayaParent - Thanks for the correction it is very much appreciated. I take it to buy a condominium you need a Vietnamese partner? And what happens when you remove the funds from the country? I am genuinely interested (but don't have a Vietnamese partner and if I retire I don't think this will count as special skills? so this is sort of a mute point form me personally).

Edited November 13, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

Hi midas - well that is sort of useful information if you read between the lines, you seem to be saying you are renting in Thailand. What would be useful is to know if you are seeing downward pressure on rents.

I guess your interest in this thread is from that perspective?

Hi pkrv. Absolutely I rent in Thailand. Maybe I would have bought land and buildings

here if there were no restictions, but I'm not allowed to ( even though the thousands of Thai's now living in Sydney are free to do so )

Even through a Company structure there are too many risks here now.

Condominium ownership here has no interest to me because of many reasons.

My principal interest in this thread is given the number of restrictions that

are imposed on foreigners regarding property ownership in Thailand,

I guess I am fascinated by those who are prepared to spend their money here.

I suppose I've been spoiled by Australia which is just a clearer market to monitor and in which to participate

and it is just as easy for me to use some of the rent I earn in Australia to pay my rent here.

to be honest I haven't studied movements in rents here because I'm just prepared to pay whatever is needed

for comfort - and I regard it as a kind of trade off for having total flexibility. -for example

if all foreigners had to leave the country at short notice.

[pkrv]

Hi midas - well that is sort of useful information if you read between the lines, you seem to be saying you are renting in Thailand. What would be useful is to know if you are seeing downward pressure on rents.

I guess your interest in this thread is from that perspective?

Hi pkrv. Absolutely I rent in Thailand. Maybe I would have bought land and buildings

here if there were no restictions, but I'm not allowed to ( even though the thousands of Thai's now living in Sydney are free to do so )

Even through a Company structure there are too many risks here now.

Condominium ownership here has no interest to me because of many reasons.

My principal interest in this thread is given the number of restrictions that

are imposed on foreigners regarding property ownership in Thailand,

I guess I am fascinated by those who are prepared to spend their money here.

I suppose I've been spoiled by Australia which is just a clearer market to monitor and in which to participate

and it is just as easy for me to use some of the rent I earn in Australia to pay my rent here.

to be honest I haven't studied movements in rents here because I'm just prepared to pay whatever is needed

for comfort - and I regard it as a kind of trade off for having total flexibility. -for example

if all foreigners had to leave the country at short notice.

Thanks for sheding some light - as I have said many times house/land ownership and condominium ownership issues are like chalk and cheese.

You have explicity stated that condominiums are not your bag and fine this is a life style choice.

I sort of stay out of land/house ownership/rental debates again for the same reasons as you 'many reasons'. But for Thailand renting a house is one reasonable option. I note that you seem to prefer owning but have come to your own conclusions on house/land ownership in Thailand.

Edited November 13, 2008 by pkrv

[pbbangkok]

I think 'crisis' is a overly used term.

But if you were to ask me "will their be fewer transactions?" I would answer "yes".

If you were to ask me "will values decline" I would have to give a longer answer:

You see it depends on how long this climate remains depressed and how much pain the Thais will actually feel but we must talk in real terms, not merely conjecture.

Property values are not like the values of liquid assets such as stocks and shares that can rebound or plummet in a blink of an eye. Property is the most illiquid of all assets especially in Thailand.

In a functioning transparent market like the UK property market, values are much more volatile, they can drop in the course of a month, here the market is opaque and so it takes time for the owners to accept market realities, if they choose to accept them at all. Remember many can simply afford not to listen and opt not to sell, which is why it depends on how much pain the owners are feeling.

The problem here is that you can not accurately gauge true levels of demand. If a developer talks their project up and quotes numbers of recorded sales its difficult to prove otherwise until transfer of units occur which could be two years off.

So if any 'crisis' or slump happens it will not happen overnight, it will take time. It will start with a long period of little to no sales (with increased leasing activity), then we must wait to see how deep and hard this recession bites to gauge the likely effect on values.

Right now nobody really knows just how bad it will be or how Thailand will fare. All anyone can do right now is guess, some will be more negative than others and all will have their own rationale for their respective trains of thought.

Personally I see Thailand remaining to be an attractive destination for export oriented manufacturing (and this is supported by recent activity in this sector that my firm is seeing) as costs rise at home. Thailand is cheaper than China (unless you want a factory 13 hours from anywhere) and has better infrastructure than cheaper rivals like Vietnam which expected to improve further with more public spending.

I expect that the Baht will be strategically devalued to support export industry coupled with more aggressive investment privileges from the BOI to attract what little FDI is out there looking for a home in the region.

You are right.

[midas]

Thanks for sheding some light - as I have said many times house/land ownership and condominium ownership issues are like chalk and cheese.

You have explicity stated that condominiums are not your bag and fine this is a life style choice.

I sort of stay out of land/house ownership/rental debates again for the same reasons as you 'many reasons'. But for Thailand renting a house is one reasonable option. I note that you seem to prefer owning but have come to your own conclusions on house/land ownership in Thailand.

Well it's been kind of dictated to me rather than me coming to my own conclusion. I'm not married so I cannot buy land and buildings

in the name of a wife. With many problems hanging over the owners of houses in places like Koh Samui and Phuket it seems

incredibly risky to buy property in the name of a company unless the ownership is strictly incidental to a legitimate business

and I cannot meet those requirements either. So what other options have I got?

I didn't say " condominiums are not my bag " - I have two in Australia, just not in Southeast Asia

because of what I regard as weak condominium ownership laws.

Edited November 13, 2008 by midas

[pkrv]

Thanks for sheding some light - as I have said many times house/land ownership and condominium ownership issues are like chalk and cheese.

You have explicity stated that condominiums are not your bag and fine this is a life style choice.

I sort of stay out of land/house ownership/rental debates again for the same reasons as you 'many reasons'. But for Thailand renting a house is one reasonable option. I note that you seem to prefer owning but have come to your own conclusions on house/land ownership in Thailand.

Well it's been kind of dictated to me rather than me coming to my own conclusion. I'm not married so I cannot buy land and buildings

in the name of a wife. With many problems hanging over the owners of houses in places like Koh Samui and Phuket it seems

incredibly risky to buy property in the name of a company unless the ownership is strictly incidental to a legitimate business

and I cannot meet those requirements either. So what other options have I got?

I didn't say " condominiums are not my bag " - I have two in Australia, just not in Southeast Asia

because of what I regard as weak condominium ownership laws.

midas - Sorry I am being intrusive - I get the impression you would not choose to live in a condominim, regardless of location either?

Edited November 13, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

midas - Sorry I am being intrusive - I get the impression you would not choose to live in a condominim, regardless of location either?

yes i would live in one anywhere but I would not OWN one just anywhere

[PattayaParent]

PattayaParent - Thanks for the correction it is very much appreciated. I take it to buy a condominium you need a Vietnamese partner? You need a VN wife or husband (VN does not yet recognise same sex civil partnerships), or you need to be working in VN.

And what happens when you remove the funds from the country? Ask me again in 50 years!!!

I am genuinely interested (but don't have a Vietnamese partner and if I retire I don't think this will count as special skills? so this is sort of a mute point form me personally).

Honestly, removing the funds won't be an issue for me as the property will be left to my children.

[donx]

midas, why so many exclamation points? If you read what I wrote you will see that I explicitly said "For me ..." I'm not expecting everyone to be married and have kids. Notice what I also said about pkrv's decision. His choice was good for him. I believe my choices have been good for me. I have no desire to liquidate my assets. I don't even see them as my assets at all. They are family assets. If you don't have a family then by all means do something else. I never suggested that you or anyone else do as I do. All I am saying is that you can be happy with carefully selected purchases whether they are condos, houses, or raw land.

Getting 100 percent of your money back from property purchased 3 years ago in the US is also very difficult. So what? US stock values have dropped more than 25 % in the last few months. Some times you win, some times you lose with investments no matter what or where they are. I am happy with all that I have invested in Thailand even if I never see a baht of it again.

Ok no more exclamation points. There is no comparison between failing to recoup your investment because of

a change in economic conditions vs. having to share your money because you were forced to have a " partner " ( business partner or matrimonial partner )

as a prerequisite to being able to own the asset in the first place.

Thank you for getting rid of the exclamation points. It reminded me too much of a classic Seinfeld episode. (If you don't know what I'm referring to then just disregard this comment.)

As pkrv has stated, successful investments aren't always based upon an increase in personal wealth. Spending $10,000 on a diamond ring for my wife, for example, will never increase my personal wealth but it can contribute to a happier life for me. In addition, I have never been "forced to have a partner", so I don't understand what you are saying although I agree that my deciding to have a partner who is Thai was a prerequisite to me being able to own a land asset as opposed to a condo asset in Thailand. Again, if I was single, I still don't see the purchase of a condo in my name as a bad decision. As discussed on another thread, I do agree with you that, given my situation, it is probably best for me to wait until I intend to retire in Thailand before I decide to purchase a condo in my name. On the other hand, purchases of land to help my immidiate family and my extended family still make sense to me even in or especially because of the current world crisis. I bet I could buy up a good amount of rubber tree producing land at this time at a cheap price because the price of rubber has decreased dramatically over the last few months.

[pkrv]

PattayaParent - Thanks for the correction it is very much appreciated. I take it to buy a condominium you need a Vietnamese partner? You need a VN wife or husband (VN does not yet recognise same sex civil partnerships), or you need to be working in VN.

And what happens when you remove the funds from the country? Ask me again in 50 years!!!

I am genuinely interested (but don't have a Vietnamese partner and if I retire I don't think this will count as special skills? so this is sort of a mute point form me personally).

Honestly, removing the funds won't be an issue for me as the property will be left to my children.

PattayaParent - very many thanks for your open and candid response. We both know that opening ourselves up on a forum like this means we also take flack. I think your answer demonstrates how complex this all is. If I were to take a guess I would say that Vietnam is dipping its toe in the water, something to watch. From what you have said the choice is correct for you, and that is always as it should be - good luck (and let me know if things change ) - PKRV.

[midas]

Ok no more exclamation points. There is no comparison between failing to recoup your investment because of

a change in economic conditions vs. having to share your money because you were forced to have a " partner " ( business partner or matrimonial partner )

as a prerequisite to being able to own the asset in the first place.

Thank you for getting rid of the exclamation points. It reminded me too much of a classic Seinfeld episode. (If you don't know what I'm referring to then just disregard this comment.)

As pkrv has stated, successful investments aren't always based upon an increase in personal wealth. Spending $10,000 on a diamond ring for my wife, for example, will never increase my personal wealth but it can contribute to a happier life for me. In addition, I have never been "forced to have a partner", so I don't understand what you are saying although I agree that my deciding to have a partner who is Thai was a prerequisite to me being able to own a land asset as opposed to a condo asset in Thailand. Again, if I was single, I still don't see the purchase of a condo in my name as a bad decision. As discussed on another thread, I do agree with you that, given my situation, it is probably best for me to wait until I intend to retire in Thailand before I decide to purchase a condo in my name. On the other hand, purchases of land to help my immidiate family and my extended family still make sense to me even in or especially because of the current world crisis. I bet I could buy up a good amount of rubber tree producing land at this time at a cheap price because the price of rubber has decreased dramatically over the last few months.

I didn't say you were forced to have a partner. I meant I would be forced to have a matrimonial partner

or several business partners in a company before I would be allowed to buy land and buildings in Thailand.

I can go anywhere in Australia and even buy a cattle station without having to worry about putting it in

someone else's name.

Buying a condo in your name maybe a good thing for you. As I mentioned in my response to pkrv

it doesn't suit me because I don't regard the condominium laws here to be anywhere near strong enough.

I don't like the idea also of owning assets in a country where I'm single and I am only ever here on a

Visa. Thailand is renowned for changing its immigration laws at the drop of a hat and with the present

political turbulence I enjoy an immense peace of mind knowing that my assets are all

tucked away in my own country and if things got nasty for foreigners here I could just

hop on a plane without any worries in the world.

In Australia I can buy and sell and make all the decisions on my own that is what I mean.

It's simply a difference in choice of lifestyle between you and me