No To Homosexuality

[jdinasia]

ummm So you are farang ....

Now ... it is two that like farang? or like your first statement ... all but two detest farang?

Guess you aren't clued into the gay scene all that well to begin with. I will agree that there is more anti-farang sentiment in Phuket than anywhere else I have been in Thailand other than Pattaya.

[Jingthing]

I will agree that there is more anti-farang sentiment in Phuket than anywhere else I have been in Thailand other than Pattaya.

Aren't these the two places in Thailand with the highest percentage of visible farangs on the streets? Coincidence? I think not.

[jdinasia]

I will agree that there is more anti-farang sentiment in Phuket than anywhere else I have been in Thailand other than Pattaya.

Aren't these the two places in Thailand with the highest percentage of visible farangs on the streets? Coincidence? I think not.

hmmm no, they are the places with the most prostitution etc ... a certain class of tourist and a certain class of Thai to cater to them.

Lots of other places get plenty of foreigners too .... HuaHin probably has a higher percentage of visible farang in high season. Chiang Mai has far less of that sentiment even in around the moat. Other than shady land deals and a couple of sketchy clubs Samui is pretty decent etc etc etc etc etc....

and let me correct myself now .... Patong and pattaya for the anti farang sentiment (not all of Phuket)

[Jingthing]

Good point, JD. But look at it another way, most of the prostitutes are Thai not farangs, chai mai?

[jdinasia]

Good point, JD. But look at it another way, most of the prostitutes are Thai not farangs, chai mai?

what does that have to do with anything?

[Jingthing]

Good point, JD. But look at it another way, most of the prostitutes are Thai not farangs, chai mai?

what does that have to do with anything?

Not much really except to point out the hypocrisy of blaming farangs for something Thais are profiting from. BTW I think Pattaya is a great place to live. It is not only about the nightlife, it is developing into a very interesting large resort city (in my mind like an Asian Acapulco with lesser scenery), and when you add the reasonable cost and cool ocean breezes, its hard to beat. Its a plus that people with an attitude like to diss it (its crowded enough).

Edited November 4, 2008 by Jingthing

[geriatrickid]

ummm So you are farang ....

Now ... it is two that like farang? or like your first statement ... all but two detest farang?

Guess you aren't clued into the gay scene all that well to begin with. .

Golly gee, I already said your weenie was bigger than mine. What more do you want? I have no idea what you do for a living in Thailand or what your relationship is with the infrastructure, so I have no idea where you are coming from unless it's just to keep picking at something cuz the forums have been lacking excitement lately. I'll take the bait.

Your attitude is similar to a loud lady that got up during a results seminar to berate an all male research team of not being competent to understand HPV because they were not women. A competent wildlife biologist knows the patterns and behaviours of his or her critters, and on and on it goes. Because my friends and I aren't banging each other, I am not in with the right crowd and don't know anything? Great logic. Maybe we don't want to be in it and maybe we live our lives the way we want. I get enough grief from my non gay work colleagues for living with gay guys and having gay Thai friends. Now I get it from the other side. Bite me, ok.

Who makes social policy in the Thai health and family affairs ministries? Who are the religious leaders expressing concerns? That's who you need to be concerned about, because they will decide. They've been on campaign for the last few years to move social mores in a different direction. Don't believe me? Pick up some of the seminars and training documents. The proposed changes in social behaviour are being inculcated at the institutions that make those changes. Sexuality is just one of many items on the agenda for change. You want to denigrate me, fine, but if you hqve your hand on the pulse of social policy, then you would know that the discussion on gays rears its head whenever infectious disease numbers start peaking (go back and look at the last big discussion and then check out the health "crisis" status.)

Do you not acknowledge that there is almost no "gay" social support structure similar to what one sees outside of Asia. Aside from a convenient complaint over the Novotel disco door policy last year, when is the last time you saw a gay organization working on behalf of statutory change or the delivery of social services? What happens when I have a gay adult with a chronic disease outside of Bangkok that needs support and treatment and doesn't have the family or money to get it. Where does he go? Can I send him over to your place? Have you seen the wards that people are put in at the hospitals, if they fall into a certain colour coding?

I know enough that a gay kid outside a big city faces significant emotional and health hurdles. Where is an adolescent to obtain access to gay friendly medical services? Are you even aware that a older male coming in with an STI will almost always lie about its origin because of the stigma attached to certain sexual behaviours. If you think Thailand is the wide open society that loves its gays, then it is you that is clueless. It's downright hard for some of them. In the west gays can get bashed in the street, but in Thailand, gays can get bashed when they need access to social services and healthcare. Just because the hardship is not visible, doesn't mean it isn't there.

You lived in Kamala for all of one year and that makes you an expert on Phuket and Patong? If you had problems there, deal with it and don't call the locals whores. Don't assume because some young males go to a few clubs or some of them date a farang that they are money boys. My friends are the way they are because of very bad experiences with farangs and as I said before, perceptions shape the outcome. You demonstrate that by calling Patong the Pattaya of the South. Your bad experience has influenced your statement, just as my friends having been two timed and cheated by farang b/fs influenced their perceptions.

Edited November 5, 2008 by geriatrickid

[onni4me]

You lived in Kamala for all of one year and that makes you an expert on Phuket and Patong? If you had problems there, deal with it and don't call the locals whores. Don't assume because some young males go to a few clubs or some of them date a farang that they are money boys. My friends are the way they are because of very bad experiences with farangs and as I said before, perceptions shape the outcome. You demonstrate that by calling Patong the Pattaya of the South. Your bad experience has influenced your statement, just as my friends having been two timed and cheated by farang b/fs influenced their perceptions.

Hmm...visited Patong 3 times and I really saw no difference between that and of Pattaya. I really see many Thais taking advantage as well farangs. No ill intent here. If You see Patong as something of a paradise with farang snakes slipping in when unwatched - then I must say you are wrong with your perceptions. Honestly, can you say that there are no similarities?

As a younger person I am not that uncomfortable finding real gays but I would be uncomfortable hanging around with someone 30 years younger and would suspect that there is a question of money sneaking somewhere around. Its just that there are so few people that like a bf age of their (grand)fathers.

Get real!

[catmac]

Oh dear!

This thread is such a microcosm of TV in general. We start of with a well-intentioned OP, whose point is soon forgotten as we descend to the usual backbiting, snide jibes at each other and general horse-trading as to who knows Thailand and the Thai character the best!

We don't need gay-bashers writing to the BP, as we seem to be doing quite well ourselves, throwing out the usual (very Western) slurs as "old perves", a b/f "the age of their (grand)father", nice socially acceptable gays -OK!- as opposed to not nice ones wearing the wrong clothes - not OK!

As far as I'm concerned, any two people (regardless of sex, relative ages, looks or dress-sense) who can share their lives together with mutual respect, love and loyalty get my full support.

[onni4me]

As far as I'm concerned, any two people (regardless of sex, relative ages, looks or dress-sense) who can share their lives together with mutual respect, love and loyalty get my full support.

I see... as I said, no ill intent. I also pointed out that there are FEW who like the idea having a bf 30 years older. Did I miss something?

I see also this discussion slipping on its way to the norm of talking about bars and who understands best the Thai and Thai culture. From my side the talk is done, now I will walk the walk.

[h90]

I don't understand why it is so interesting for many people, specially old male monks (of every religion) about other peoples sex.

[Jimjim]

Wow. What a horrible letter to the editor.

As for Buddhism as a religion, even the Dalai Lama says that the official stance of the Buddhist religion does not encourage homosexuality. So, it's no surprise to hear a Thai Buddhist monk somewhat denouncing it. However, the Dalai Lama did say, while answering the same question of the stance on homosexuality, something to the effect of love, acceptance and understanding of even homosexuals being more important. Those are not exact quotes, but that was basically how I remember it. It was clear that he said Buddhism itself does not just say homosexuality is ok and no problem, but he downplayed the importance of that attitude.

Oh, and Thailand certainly is, as the letter to the editor writer wrote, very accepting of homosexuality. More than the U.S., in my opinion, but that just may be the part of America I come from. Many of my American friends in Thailand have agreed with me on that point, however. It's a good thing, too.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Jimjim

[jdinasia]

Hmmmm this post is so large that it needs to be picked apart piece by piece ----- My comments will be in red

ummm So you are farang ....

Now ... it is two that like farang? or like your first statement ... all but two detest farang?

Guess you aren't clued into the gay scene all that well to begin with. .

Golly gee, I already said your weenie was bigger than mine. What more do you want? I have no idea what you do for a living in Thailand or what your relationship is with the infrastructure, so I have no idea where you are coming from unless it's just to keep picking at something cuz the forums have been lacking excitement lately. I'll take the bait.

Your attitude is similar to a loud lady that got up during a results seminar to berate an all male research team of not being competent to understand HPV because they were not women. A competent wildlife biologist knows the patterns and behaviours of his or her critters, and on and on it goes. Because my friends and I aren't banging each other, I am not in with the right crowd and don't know anything? Great logic. Maybe we don't want to be in it and maybe we live our lives the way we want. I get enough grief from my non gay work colleagues for living with gay guys and having gay Thai friends. Now I get it from the other side. Bite me, ok.

What a load of swill ----- did I say you could not have an opinion and it even be corerct merely because you claim to be str8 with gay 'friends'? The rest of that is just bullshit specious arguments just to sound special....

Who makes social policy in the Thai health and family affairs ministries? Who are the religious leaders expressing concerns? That's who you need to be concerned about, because they will decide. They've been on campaign for the last few years to move social mores in a different direction. Don't believe me? Pick up some of the seminars and training documents. The proposed changes in social behaviour are being inculcated at the institutions that make those changes. Sexuality is just one of many items on the agenda for change. You want to denigrate me, fine, but if you hqve your hand on the pulse of social policy, then you would know that the discussion on gays rears its head whenever infectious disease numbers start peaking (go back and look at the last big discussion and then check out the health "crisis" status.)

What does this .... any of it ... have to do with the topic at hand or the question you were asked and quoted in your response? Oh yeah ---- shift focus and that way nobody will notice the crap!

Do you not acknowledge that there is almost no "gay" social support structure similar to what one sees outside of Asia. Aside from a convenient complaint over the Novotel disco door policy last year, when is the last time you saw a gay organization working on behalf of statutory change or the delivery of social services? What happens when I have a gay adult with a chronic disease outside of Bangkok that needs support and treatment and doesn't have the family or money to get it. Where does he go? Can I send him over to your place? Have you seen the wards that people are put in at the hospitals, if they fall into a certain colour coding?

Again .. the topic at hand? ------ Oh wait --- shift shift shift the topic so people don't see what you are pulling... great stunt and one of many fallacies used in debate! You can take the aforementioned person in need in at your place ... as you are not discussing a gay issue at all

I know enough that a gay kid outside a big city faces significant emotional and health hurdles. Where is an adolescent to obtain access to gay friendly medical services? Are you even aware that a older male coming in with an STI will almost always lie about its origin because of the stigma attached to certain sexual behaviours. If you think Thailand is the wide open society that loves its gays, then it is you that is clueless. It's downright hard for some of them. In the west gays can get bashed in the street, but in Thailand, gays can get bashed when they need access to social services and healthcare. Just because the hardship is not visible, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Where do you get some of your crap ---- and again what does it have to do with the topic and the questions I quoted? What makes gays any different than any other group you could mention above? Social services? in Thailand? LOL

You lived in Kamala for all of one year and that makes you an expert on Phuket and Patong? If you had problems there, deal with it and don't call the locals whores. Don't assume because some young males go to a few clubs or some of them date a farang that they are money boys. My friends are the way they are because of very bad experiences with farangs and as I said before, perceptions shape the outcome. You demonstrate that by calling Patong the Pattaya of the South. Your bad experience has influenced your statement, just as my friends having been two timed and cheated by farang b/fs influenced their perceptions.

LOL again .... tell me about the gay bars in Patong and compare and contrast them to say .... Pattaya. My bad experience? Again ... a proven fallacy used in debate --- push an untrue assumption as fact!

You told us before that all but 2 of your 'friends' "DETEST FARANG"---- but you think you are privy to reality of the gay experience in Thailand! Simply Amazing! Tell us .. how many close friends that you talk in depth with on emotional issues are Thai, Gay, Fluent enough in English ... I am betting it is fewer examples then Freud used .... and with a far shallower understanding and dialogue

I don't know many gay people here that 'detest farang', why? Gee they don't hang out with farang. I do however hang out almost exclusively in Thai gay places and have a gay partner and gay friends (many of them) that are Thai ... Most do not date farang, it has nothing to do with detesting farang it is simple attraction. Most people in the US date their own race and that is common here and that is before you add in language and cultural issues.

Gay youth in Thailand ... lol tell us more and how you derived such in depth knowledge! (Thankfully there are some good and informative websites in Thai to help and thankfully families and society isn't nearly as homophobic here as in the West)

Social Services .... lol .. how is it different for gays than str8's?

Finally ----- you were correct about one thing!

Yours is smaller!

[Ijustwannateach]

Lord, GK, where to begin? What kind of gay people do you know and gay places do you hang out, GK? I'm just going to post semi-random responses to some of these bizarre myths you're suggesting:

1. Medical Discrimination Against Gays: Considering the number of gay professionals I know- doctors, nurses, lawyers, and students of those professions- I can hardly see how it would be possible to discriminate and have the hospitals still function. One of my doctors made a pretty fair effort at a pass at me, and I've been out with med students or med-related personnel more frequently than I could recount; last time I was in hospital it was dizzying to see the number of gay male nurses running around the place (ok, maybe that was the painkiller). The gossip at one of the rural hospitals where a friend's boyfriend's father stayed was about the doctor's lavish treatment of HIS boyfriend, who was cheating on him with some other guy. Maybe you're talking about the Red Cross Anonymous Clinic, which is staffed by perhaps the gentlest collection of gay male nurses and doctors that have ever been collected under heaven? Just where *is* the non-gay friendly medical care??

2. Gay Discrimination Against Foreigners: Never been anywhere I didn't get at least some smiles and welcome among the gay Thais; and if they were introducing me to their families it was quite friendly and without tension. I've never heard from any gay Thai- even my best friends with whom I can discuss controversial issues- that foreign people were considered 'bad.' JD's take on it is spot-on- we're simply not what Thais think of first when they go out to date, just as the bulk of white Anglo-Americans don't automatically think upon breaking up with a partner, 'maybe next time I should try someone who speaks Spanish."

3. Gay Discrimination Against the Aged Foreigner: While it's true that if it seems pretty obvious that if there's a big age difference *and* the younger partner seems to come from a certain, um, commercial social grouping there may be some judgements and titters, that would happen just as well if the two persons involved were Thai (I've seen it frequently); and if the younger party clearly has his own life in order it isn't so much an issue. For example, when I've been out with younger guys (though I wouldn't say it's a huge age difference) on a date who met me after work- in their shirts and ties- I've never sensed any negative judgements from those around me- especially considering that I'm not violating other social norms (the most I've ever seen gay Thai couples do among the general public is hold hands, and that's still pretty rare).

4. Social Order: This is a force that's on the wane, not on the rise, with its death-knells tolled by the blue-rinse set. The reality over the last 5 years is that the number of real Thai gay places has proliferated and has nothing to do with foreigners or tourism, and from what I can see they are more liberated than ever. That's probably the effect that has the writer who is the subject of the OP so paranoid and homophobic, and ironically it means that his perception seems in that one aspect more accurate than yours!

Just mine own two cents,

"S"

[yaketyak]

Am i alone in the world as being the only person who can go through life not worrying/concerning themselves with what other people are doing ?

I can wrack my brains all day and i will never understand why people are so bigoted? If they don't like homosexuals then don't look. Why all this hatred?

When i am in Thailand i see all sorts of things , homosexuals, ladyboys, drug takers , glue sniffers, prostitutes, under age prostitutes, beggars, con men , i see it all. Most people seem to hate at least one of the above and seem unable to get through the day without spurting their venom here. I just observe it , put it all down to the variety of life , and pass on. The world keeps spinning and i don't let it worry me . In fact i am such a live and let live kind of person i wonder if that makes me unique?

I can't explain it except to say that i accept the world is full of different kinds of people and as long as i don't see any hurt (real hurt as opposed to the largely imagined hurt that the newspapers would have us believe all of the above have) i just get on with my life. To those of you who can't mind your own business i offer this advice... if you don't like it don't look !!

[Navalator]

Mr. CHAD WILLIAMS is obviously a very disturbed person, most likely a threat to himself and others, and should be sent to straight hel_l, otherwise known as Utah, where he can be celebrated by the hateful, irrational and moronic Mormons who think as he does.

[PeaceBlondie]

Guys who speak Spanish are great, but Thai guys are better.

[geriatrickid]

Ijustwannateach

Not myths.

i) I can hardly see how it would be possible to discriminate and have the hospitals still function.

Discrimination is a chronic problem in the health delivery system. And many hospitals barely function. Read the most recent newsclipping posts. First factor is poverty. If one is without means, he/she is sent to the "public" facility. There, health care is rationed. if you don't have caregivers to assist, you can lie in your own feces. There is a chronic shortage of medical practioners in many regions. Now introduce to this a patient that is reticent about discussing his/her case, particularly one involving an STI. The perception voiced by clients is that they are not treated compassionately and that care consisted of script issuance. Talking to a patient and taking a proper history is a skill. Your smiling nurses and case of a physician acting inappropriately with a patient indicate nothing. What matters are the reportable cases and estimates. Look at the numbers. If we were doing our job properly, we wouldn't be sitting with this exponential growth in STIs and HIV in the adolescent population would we? And don't say it's because of an absence of safe sex education. The clients that need to be reached are not being reached. That is why we have such a persistent reservoir of infection.

ii) Red Cross Anonymous Clinic, which is staffed by perhaps the gentlest collection of gay male nurses and doctors that have ever been collected under heaven?

iii)Just where *is* the non-gay friendly medical care??

Please have a look in the health threads for some of the horror stories about results being read aloud, and that was just for the heterosexual subjects. Although the Bangkok Red Cross facility is reputable, it is one facility in a city of 10million. You expect a patient that in many cases can barely afford to take time off for a few hours to take a day to travel and to wait for care? Where does Somchai from Nong Khai go for help? I can tell you one thing for sure; none of those lovely gay nurses and joyous physicians in Bangkok are making the 1000km+ journey to see him.

There are significant delivery problems in the impoverished regions. A kid in Fang with an STI would have to travel 3-5 hours over winding roads to get to a facility in CM that might be able to provide physical treatment. Can you cite the number of health care providers qualified to deliver adolescent sexual health care in regions such as Fang, or Nong Bua am Phu or Loei.? Can you tell me how many physicians are available for health care delivery at the public health facilities that are intended to service the bulk of the population, that possess the expertise to deal with the subject? To the best of my knowledge it is 0. Let me spell it out for you, ZERO. Health care providers trained in the delivery of adolescent sexual health? Zero. You can't just dispense and send the patient on his or her way, otherwise the patient will be back.

Now toss in the fact that young gay males are reluctant to provide a complete medical history and you have the reason why the delivery system is failing to service the client. I'm not making this up. Look at the published research.

One of the problems we have with a large increase in resistant bacteria and poorly treated STIs is that it has been far easier to have a nurse or a "doctor" toss some pills at the patient without the proper investigation and culture being taken. A young patient is already reluctant to discuss why his penis is burning, now add in that his rectum may be burning at the same time or he has deep throat lesions because no one knows how to talk to the patient properly and you have the reason why the STIs are spiking. I offer that the rate of sexual activity is unchanged from 5 years ago, but the desire and ability to determine origin of the full symptoms has diminished.

The accomodating style you are referring to is at private facilities or pay as you go facilities. You do not get that kind of delivery at the public facilities in the poor parts of Isaan. Cripes, there was a shortage of physicians at the Phuket public hospital. Phuket, which is awash with medical facilities, couldn't get enough doctors to staff its primary care center for those not able to afford private care. Look at the MoH numbers. The numbers shadow all the areas where there are limited health services to begin with. Now factor in the lack of directed services and my point is demonstrated.

For sure, if you are a gay with money you can get help. If you are poor and have a dark skin pigmentation, you will learn to live with that irritated penis, vagina or rectum and spread the fun. It is not uncommon for doctors and nurses to ridicule patients. Is it specific to Thailand? No. When I was an undergrad and did mop duty in the ER we often made jokes about the patients. Was it wrong? You bet, but it didn't stop staff from sometimes being hostile or ignoring the patients.

2. Gay Discrimination Against Foreigners: You have your view and I have mine. Just as some farangs will blame things on Thais, Thais will blame things on farangs. Surely, you have met them. I did not offer it as a defacto statment that applied to all Thais. You know alot of Thais that love farangs. That's great. I happen to know several Thais that dislike farangs. Some apples are green. Others are red.

3. Gay Discrimination Against the Aged Foreigner: Not my concern, I already said the issue was off the table with me and that is someone else's issue.

4. Social Order: it means that his perception seems in that one aspect more accurate than yours!

May I suggest then, that you have a friendly chat with your local Chief Medical Officer. He or she deals with this subject on a daily basis and can share with you his or her insight. My view is that there is a palpable concern about the influence of social views at the DoFS and MoH. Social planners and budget masters strongly influence the delivery of health care, particularly when it comes to budgets. Take a look at what happened with stem cell research in the USA. A small group said no, it was "immoral" and because of that, research has been disrupted and delayed.

If you and others wish to believe I am in fantasyland, so be it. There will still be a sunrise tomorrow and a gay kid outside of the big city will have medical care access problems, just as he or she would in parts of the USA, Australia, Russia etc.

Edited November 11, 2008 by geriatrickid

[angmo]

A few simple comments:

1. I would like to ask all straight guys who think homosexuality is a choice - When exactly did you choose to be straight?

2. What about bad straight behaviour - is that excusable?

3. Shakespeare - "Nothing is either good or bad but thinking makes it so"

Don't worry - be happy!

[PeaceBlondie]

Geriatric Kid, you are right, that poor folks have almost no access to medical care if they live in the rural areas. I know folks from Fang, as does another poster here.

[Paagai]

Did I miss something? This thread was about a letter to the BK Post by a fanatical Christian Bigot preaching the evils of homosexuality and touting their "Gay cure", which has already been denounced by many, not least those who have tried it. These views are surely something all gay people should have a unanimous aversion too and I would have expected to see more constructive posts about what the gay community can/should do about such evil people who hide behind relgious pretences. Instead, Geriatric Kid seems to have high jacked the thread to promote his own social/political agenda regarding social and medical services in Thailand.

Whilst GK probably has some valid points, they apply equally to all reciepents of healthcare, gay, straight, whatever, they have no relevance to the subject of this thread, or anything specifically gay.

For example, as I see it the statement:

There will still be a sunrise tomorrow and a gay kid outside of the big city will have medical care access problems, just as he or she would in parts of the USA, Australia, Russia etc.

Applies equally to a straight kid as well as a gay one. Indeed, as I see it the greater awareness of sexual health issues in the gay community, driven by the risks of HIV (both online and in bars, peer groups etc), mean gay people probably have more knowledge of these issues than their straight counterparts.

On the other hand GK, has completely ducked answering the other perfectly valid responses IJWT made regarding gay descrimination, etc. GK: if you need a platform to expound your views on health delivery fine, but I'm not sure this forum is the right one. Meanwhile your comments on gay life and behaviour in Thailand seem quite wide of the mark to me.

From GK's first post in this thread:

What some people are losing sight of is that it's all about perceptions. When many Thais think of homosexuality they think of the young boys selling their bodies in Bangkok, Pattaya and Patong. it's offensive to alot of Thais. I'm not going to tangent off into the ethics of the business, rather my point is that's what alot of people think of. It colors their perceptions.

[snip...]

He expounds views which are typical of Farangs who come to Thailand and judge the country, and what they think people believe, from their contacts with Thais in Patong, Pattaya, Silom etc (who's agenda is often Farang exploitation, which inevitably leads to contempt). The vast majority of Thais, living in rural areas have virtually no idea what goes on in go-go bars at Patong Beach, and really don't care. If you've spent time in rural Thailand you'll know homosexuality really is a non issue. Whether it's Guy's having sex with each other, or straight boys obliging their katoey friends, it's been going on for centuries and nobody cares. In my experience, Thais are much more obsessed with who does what (Top/bottom or King/Queen in Thai parlance - as dsicussed recently in this forum), than the issue of homosexuality in the way westerners would think of it. Far from prejudice, it seems to me gay people are totally accepted within normal Thai society (not so true with Thai Chinese).

GK mentions Fang; I wonder if he's actually been there? I have been to Fang several times and know many people from there or thereabouts, including some with HIV and at least one we recently helped get treatment for an STI (in CM). A more serious issue is not the general health care situation for Thai people, which whilst sub optimal, does exist, but the total lack of access to it for hill tribe and Tai Yai people. That is REAL discrimination in health care, and nothing to do with being gay.

BTW, this may come as a suprise, but Fang is also a fun place for a night out

[Ijustwannateach]

GK, I don't doubt that poor people in Thailand in general have it hard, especially if they have HIV- but I doubt being gay vs. straight compounds their problems that much. I think the prejudice you are speaking of is against those without money, not against those who are gay.

On the other issues, I suppose it's each to our own opinion, but after all, I *am* a gay foreigner living in Thailand. I might even have as many gay friends as you do!

[jdinasia]

3. Gay Discrimination Against the Aged Foreigner: Not my concern, I already said the issue was off the table with me and that is someone else's issue.

4. Social Order: it means that his perception seems in that one aspect more accurate than yours!

May I suggest then, that you have a friendly chat with your local Chief Medical Officer. He or she deals with this subject on a daily basis and can share with you his or her insight. My view is that there is a palpable concern about the influence of social views at the DoFS and MoH. Social planners and budget masters strongly influence the delivery of health care, particularly when it comes to budgets. Take a look at what happened with stem cell research in the USA. A small group said no, it was "immoral" and because of that, research has been disrupted and delayed.

If you and others wish to believe I am in fantasyland, so be it. There will still be a sunrise tomorrow and a gay kid outside of the big city will have medical care access problems, just as he or she would in parts of the USA, Australia, Russia etc.

again ... your experience is pretty extremely limited no?

3) aged foreigners --- you brought it up and are still ducking

4) Social order --- care to document that?

all the rest? nothing different in dealing with HIV etc for gay or straight so that can hardly be an issue can it?

You seem to forget that many of us actually do have friends from all social classes that are gay; speak, read and write Thai; and travel all around the country...

The gay kid outside the big city will have the same access as anyone else outside the big city. If they have an STD they will be treated the same as others with STD's ... He's not likely to be more ashamed than the heterosexual man with an STD etc etc

[peekint]

The gay kid outside the big city will have the same access as anyone else outside the big city. If they have an STD they will be treated the same as others with STD's ... He's not likely to be more ashamed than the heterosexual man with an STD etc etc

Living in the City of Chiang Mai, I find both the public and private health care to be quite acceptable (I've had experience with both). Living in a very rural area of Chiang Mai Province I find the healthcare to be close to non-existent. When we first established our plantation about 10 years ago, pre "Gold Card" health care, the local public hospital was staffed with two rather dedicated, if not exactly Mayo-Clinic quality doctors, every day. Now the hospital gets a visit once a week for an afternoon from a completely disinterest and obviously over-worked hack who prescribes nothing more than paracetamol and bed rest. The hygiene at the facility has become atrocious. The locals call it the "rong ka sat" (slaughterhouse) rather than the "rong payaban" (hospital); it's joked that you may as well drive directly to you own "ngan sop" (wake).

There is no question that there is a huge difference in health care availability in urban and rural areas, and yes, the fellow who asserts the Gay kid will get worse care in the provinces is right - but for the wrong reason. Everyone gets bad care in the provinces.

I can't understand why the Gold Card is such a popular populist tool for the PPP; it's quite obvious that before you paid something, and got some care.

Perhaps there was a difference between those who could pay and those who couldn't pay. Now that has difference has been equalized. Nobody pays anything, and nobody gets anything.

[marc11864]

HEY! Pipe down over there. I'm tryin' to get some sleep!