Serious Electricity Supply Problem - Advice/direction Urgently Needed Please

[gdhm]

Hi All,

Well our house 2 months late and still not finished we have had to move into our large house as the rental was rented to another. Only 2 adults and 1 child will live in the house for some time (expected extended family of 5 to move in as well but their routes in life have all changed during the 8 month building stage.

We are currently living on the ground floor only due to a stair problem being rectified.

The Electricity company told us we needed and installed a permanent supply 25 AMP fused meter

Since we moved in a week ago we have had continuous momentary drops in power. At worst every 10 mins but strangely it also occurs in the middle of the night but less frequently (maybe every 20 mins).

Air con seems to most affected and my PC UPS which keeps stabilising the dropouts. Last 2 days the UPS has had to take over for several minutes on its battery backup supply.

When we switch on an aircon or TV the lights sometimes flicker for a split second.

All this is telling me that we are not only experiencing power dropout due to demand (probably often due to someone (or us) in the street switching on a big consumption electrical appliance but we are also experiencing low voltage. My low voltage suspicion is further supported by the fact that ring fluorescent tube light take longer to fire up than at our rental (and tonight are having trouble in doing so).

My wife has asked neighbours whether they have experienced dropouts in the past. Some said only when we arrived BUT others said yes but now worse.

After a day of dropouts (annoying) I asked my electrician whether our house needs a 3 phase supply (as Crossey once suggested we may with multi-points and 5 aircons and heated showers and electric oven). Our electrician said we cannot have a 3 phase supply as the street is only one line.

My electrician says the street (in Khon Kaen City) is supplied with a single cable and he thinks the transformer is not very close (not sure if he is correct or if that is relevant).

I do not know much about phases and power line capability. Except when in Spain and on Builders supply I recognise some of the symptoms we are experiencing

What I am guessing is once we can live properly in our house ans use more electricity (we are only averaging 18 units a day for the last week (I read meter every day) this is 8 less a day than at our rental (in the hot season we used to use 32 units a day and in this house with its larger and more numerous aircons I suspect 40+ may be normal next hot season summer. It seems logical to me that things will get a lot worse for both us and our street neighbours.

I think probably the street was over the limit already before we moved in (hence why one or 2 of the 5 we have asked were aware of dropouts already).

Does anybody know what is the likely exact problems, prognosis and solution.

If the Electricity Company is the only solution how do we deal with them what are our and the others in the streets rights to adequate supply rectification in Thailand (Khon Kaen City) if we need new/more lines or whatever to be upgraded.

A TT&T man said this problem is reasonably common in some streets in KKC and he suggested we get a stabiliser unit in the house for each air con he said about 3,500 Baht but thought max watts were only 3000W or less. He said if we do not get power stabilised and higher he would not give our air cons more than 2 years max before they start failing. I suspect fridges and anything with compressors will be none to happy either.

At present I have no reason to believe there are any spikes upwards in power (only momentary dropouts or sustained lower voltage).

Really need some urgent advice as important for us AND neighbours. I may seem to have some idea but I am not really knowledgeable on the

subject at all.

Many Thanks

Dave

[IsaanAussie]

Dave,

From experience here in Thailand the only people who can fix your problem is the PEA. So too me, the best advice is to go to the electricity company with a three fold strategy:

1. Touch in cheek

2. Worried Smile on the face

3. Ready to have a lot of hands in your pocket

You will get dicked around by all the experts for ages, be prepared to be the gullible farang and pay for what you want.

Issanaussie

[Crossy]

Is your meter really fused at 25A? If so you have a 5/15 supply which is limited to about 15A, WAY too low for anything other than a Thai shack.

The single phase meter sizes that are available are:-

5/15 (15A Max)

15/45 (45A Max)

30/100 (100A Max)

The biggest unit is not available in all areas so you may be limited to a 15/45.

Get yourself a meter to verify if you have low voltage. If you do, and the supply company are not any help then you'll need AVRs (Automatic Voltage Regulators) to jack up the low periods. All the aircons in my place in Bangalore (India) have these (as well as the TV) and they work well.

Check how far you are from the nearest transformer. Take some photos of the poles near your house so we can determine what supply is available and point you in the right direction.

[gdhm]

Is your meter really fused at 25A? If so you have a 5/15 supply which is limited to about 15A, WAY too low for anything other than a Thai shack.

The single phase meter sizes that are available are:-

5/15 (15A Max)

15/45 (45A Max)

30/100 (100A Max)

The biggest unit is not available in all areas so you may be limited to a 15/45.

Get yourself a meter to verify if you have low voltage. If you do, and the supply company are not any help then you'll need AVRs (Automatic Voltage Regulators) to jack up the low periods. All the aircons in my place in Bangalore (India) have these (as well as the TV) and they work well.

Check how far you are from the nearest transformer. Take some photos of the poles near your house so we can determine what supply is available and point you in the right direction.

Hi Crossy,

Guessed you would assist as before on several occasions. I told the Electrical Company what sort or equipment we had and they said (and charged us double) we will install a 30A metre and you must tell your electrician he must have cable rated at 25AMP. We have 2 consumer units (for all the circuit breakers) in our house so our electrician has two 25AMP cables going the the Electricity Company's meter on the pole.

I will get the photos of the poles sometime today

How many minutes/seconds do the AVRs maintain voltage regularity and are they capable of dealing with low voltage drops of 5 mins (which we are experiencing.

How many do I need can they deal with several items or only one each and to what max wattage and how expensive in Thailand. How large are they and where in the circuit are they fitted.

My electrician seems to know what he is doing but not entirely as all sockets have the live and neutral reversed I am assuming live is like the UK (left hole in 3 pin socket point and Neutral left).

Had an interesting "much sold manufacturer" (won't mention name in case I am in error of understanding) extension socket situation. I have 2 one tests Ground and correct N & L position. It was that which revealed the N & L are wrong way round in my house (unless Thailand is reverse of UK) so until the electrician sorts this out I have reversed my wires to my extension socket to compensate and use with my PC.

But when I plugged in the new "much sold manufacturer" extension socket and then the "much sold manufacturer" extension with tester into it the N& L reversed I assume that should not have happened. Totally confused I opened up the new socket extension I found that the fuse is in line with the LEFT pin hole. (opposite to UK). Assuming there is not something I do not understand that has to be dangerous. I think they reversed the N and L wires in the molded plug to as well (must have for my tester to reverse when plugged into the new one.

Essentially the 2 "much sold manufacturer" extension sockets have their N & L wired differently (unless I am going mad).

Maybe there is something I do not understand about extension sockets but I have always understood that fuse goes with Live. Neutral wires are often Blue (or black) and Live is brown (or red) and Ground is Green (or green/yellow stripes).

Neutral plug pin goes into the lower wall socket left hole and live plug pin into the lower right and the top middle of course is Ground. When a manufactured 4 socket extension socket has reversed N & L things that seems to me dangerous and fuse is on the neutral side nobody would question it.

We definitely are getting low voltage at times. My PC UPS last night remained on battery for minutes rather than delaying with momentary dropouts

Also the performance at night in particular of charging up ring fluorescent tubes is poor 20 seconds on occasions. When in Spain and on Builder supply I got this so bad that I had to change my kitchen tubes to normal lights until normal voltage levels were restored when we came off builders supplies. You can also here the air con fans are not always as peak fan speeds.

I DO have a multimetre (which I barely understand) that tests voltage but am loath to put the probes into the power sockets as I do not really know what I am doing or what settings or what probe goes into what sopcket hole (I only use the multimeter for testing continuity).

Perhaps you can tell me which probe and settings I should use in what wall socket hole.

Will send photos of poles later and search for transformer (I have my suspicions which is the correct direction as although only .5 of a Km form everthing our road leads to country (and is part plots with no houses itself)

Dave

[gdhm]

Dave,

From experience here in Thailand the only people who can fix your problem is the PEA. So too me, the best advice is to go to the electricity company with a three fold strategy:

1. Touch in cheek

2. Worried Smile on the face

3. Ready to have a lot of hands in your pocket

You will get dicked around by all the experts for ages, be prepared to be the gullible Farang and pay for what you want.

Issanaussie

Thanks, depends upon what "pay" costs

Additionally, my wife is not a gullible Farang and although petite is like a Rottweiller when advantage is attempted of my being a Farang. I do not know the system and she does so other Thais quickly ascertain its not me they are needing to convince, but my wife and she is not easily bullshitted on things she understands adequately. She understands this problem enough

My fear is they will cop out and make all of us and our street persist with a fluctuating inadequate power supply that will damage all of our equipment ands cause problems. My concern is genuinely as much for my neighbours as myself. I am sure they are less able to replace costly appliances AND I am conscious that although our new house is not the cause we have exaggerated an existing problem that was possibly just acceptable for my neighbours before we moved in (straw that broke the camels back)

Increasingly as new plots of land are purchased and built upon in this road *there are some 8 I think (some large) the problem will escalate until totally incapable of operating even to a minimum working performance. Already the ring light tubes are only just firing up on certain nights and it will only take a tiny further reduction in voltage for them to not fire up last night it was taking up to 20 seconds at worst times).

Maybe its just me thinking this but I do not find Thailand very proactive usually only reactive.

The problem is already here AND OBVIOUS to all, but I suspect the Electric Company will try to hang on until it completely fails over when they will need to do what they can ands should do now which would keep everybody satisfied and appliances undamaged. After all that is what we are contracted for and paying for (an adequate stable power supply)

But TIT and Western logic, expectations and norms do not always apply here.

Dave

[Crossy]

Hi Crossy,

Guessed you would assist as before on several occasions. I told the Electrical Company what sort or equipment we had and they said (and charged us double) we will install a 30A metre and you must tell your electrician he must have cable rated at 25AMP. We have 2 consumer units (for all the circuit breakers) in our house so our electrician has two 25AMP cables going the the Electricity Company's meter on the pole. The cables should be 25mm2 (not 25A) probably a communication problem, electrician will know correct cable to use.

How many minutes/seconds do the AVRs maintain voltage regularity and are they capable of dealing with low voltage drops of 5 mins (which we are experiencing. AVR is a regulating transformer, can boost low voltage for ever

How many do I need can they deal with several items or only one each and to what max wattage and how expensive in Thailand. How large are they and where in the circuit are they fitted. You can get big 'whole house' units or smaller 'appliance' units, start from about 2500Baht.

My electrician seems to know what he is doing but not entirely as all sockets have the live and neutral reversed I am assuming live is like the UK (left hole in 3 pin socket point and Neutral left). Outlets are opposite to UK, live on the left, neutral on the right. This obviously gives issues with 'universal' sockets.

Check out http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/ lots of your queries answered there

[kamalabob2]

You might consider your own Three Phase transformer. We were warned and we had seen the result of homes with larger electrical consumption that had various sizes of PEA electric single phase METERS and how the electrical lights and other appliances would be affected by voltage fluctuations. In a City as large as you live you can find HONEST, EXPERIENCED PRIVATE ELECTRICAL FIRMS that can give you a written price which probably will be lower than the PEA for the same electric cable, transformer and necessary parts.

You can see many replies to a similar situation on Thai Visa Forum at "Connecting to the Electricity Supply, Cost of Hooking up Electricity." While the PEA has MANY posted prices in the PEA office, written in Thai but easy to understand, in my experience Three Phase and longer wires runs was where it really saved money to compare. You might not need as large of a Transformer as we were required to obtain electric service, but we NEVER have flickering lights or any electric surges. As I posted previously a fellow Farang hired a "not as aware general contractor", the Farang paid serious money for proper single phase wiring, but when it came time to go to the PEA for permanent electrical service they refused to sell him a meter since he had inadequate supply wire and they insisted he obtain Three Phase service. He wasted money on the first cable and underground installation.

It seems to me in order to have a safe and proper sized electrical service connection you should (in our case required to) bring your electrical plan to the PEA and they can give you the real options. You do not have to pay them for this service, nor do you have to select the PEA to install your service wires, but they do collect money for the deposit, meter, and performing the cut over service at some point in the process.

Maybe on a much more sensible home they would not be so "fussy", but frankly I am now thankful they did make specific requirements on what level of electrical service we could have. Easy for me to say as we are only relatively short distance from PEA Three Phase wires and for MANY in Thailand it would be a SERIOUS expense to run wires from your transformer to the nearest existing Three Phase wires.

Your contractor should have taken you to the PEA many months ago, even the "plan" stages so you would know the "hit" for electrical service.

[Rimmer]

Hi All,

The Electricity company told us we needed and installed a permanent supply 25 AMP fused meter

Since we moved in a week ago we have had continuous momentary drops in power. At worst every 10 mins but strangely it also occurs in the middle of the night but less frequently (maybe every 20 mins).

Air con seems to most affected and my PC UPS which keeps stabilising the dropouts. Last 2 days the UPS has had to take over for several minutes on its battery backup supply.

When we switch on an aircon or TV the lights sometimes flicker for a split second.

After a day of dropouts (annoying) I asked my electrician whether our house needs a 3 phase supply (as Crossey once suggested we may with multi-points and 5 aircons and heated showers and electric oven). Our electrician said we cannot have a 3 phase supply as the street is only one line.

My electrician says the street (in Khon Kaen City) is supplied with a single cable and he thinks the transformer is not very close (not sure if he is correct or if that is relevant).

Does anybody know what is the likely exact problems, prognosis and solution.

If the Electricity Company is the only solution how do we deal with them what are our and the others in the streets rights to adequate supply rectification in Thailand (Khon Kaen City) if we need new/more lines or whatever to be upgraded.

Really need some urgent advice as important for us AND neighbours. I may seem to have some idea but I am not really knowledgeable on the

subject at all.

Sounds like you have voltage drop problems being a long way from the transformer and too many people hooked into a small single phase supply.

Are there any 3 phase HT cables close by that can be extended?

I spent 1m baht running HT lines and poles onto my land and now have my own 50kva transformer and a steady 220volts on all phases. Maybe you can get together with some other people and share the cost, if not you will have to bite the bullet and do it yourself or live with poor voltage.

A private licensed HT contractor may be a cheaper way to go rather than the PEA themselves.

[gdhm]

Thanks ever so much for all the input,

Crossy

I have taken a good look at our Sois electrical lines.

We are 5 houses from the termination end of one of the many spurs that shoot off from the main poles.

The wiring on the main poles is not very thick. I followed back to the logical main road supplying our road and many other spurs and found a road that our line join at 90 degrees. the main poles have one VERY thick cable looks 1 to 2 inches diameter viewed from the ground and to the RIGHT about 20 meters is joins a very large transformer on one of those "H"poles. the one LEFT of where our line joins there is a another smaller half the size of the first transformer about 150 metres down the road.

Ok if I had to join a cable for 3 phase from the BIG transformer we are talking exactly 0.6 km I drove the distance and checked the speedo. That is also the distance of our house from any transformer.

Most of our neighbours are poor Thais and there is no way they could afford to help with any cable and connection bills.

I am sure you are correct about the 25mm2 cable (just my ignorance and my wife trying to interpret what the Electrical Company said. The Electric Company told us if the cables were not suitable they would refuse to connect and they did so I am sure our electrician knew what they meant as the Company were happy to connect.

I have tried to take photos but it was not the best of light so I may need to have another go tomorrow. What are you particularly interested in seeing in my photos? Is it the pole feeding our house and the two transformers?

Thanks for your input on Live and Neutral[/u]. I was mistaken in thinking it was a World Standard.

Do you suggest I stick with Thai standard and reverse all my plugs that need and use 3 wires G, N & L and just ignore the wire casing colour?

Is that the safest code to follow rather than reversing the house to UK standard.

Please can you also tell me the Thai standard for light switches is UP on or off. (I know Spain was the opposite of UK)

How many minutes/seconds do the AVRs maintain voltage regularity and are they capable of dealing with low voltage drops of 5 mins (which we are experiencing. AVR is a regulating transformer, can boost low voltage for ever

How many do I need can they deal with several items or only one each and to what max wattage and how expensive in Thailand. How large are they and where in the circuit are they fitted. You can get big 'whole house' units or smaller 'appliance' units, start from about 2500Baht.

I need to look up AVR's as I cannot comprehend how an AVR can raise power levels "for ever". This implies to my pea brain less power in more out (which does not seem possible). If the power is low and for hours where does it get its extra and how does it store it for use when needed. (I know my PC UPS needs a battery to do that and it can only give me 10 to 15 mins max for just PC and VDU).

Clearly I do not understand these? Can an AVR house size work off a single phase line and be a total solution rather than installing a 3 phase power line at God knows what price?

If so what sort or price would an AVR house size coast in Thailand (ball park once again)?

Kamalabob2,

EXTRACT "You might consider your own Three Phase transformer. We were warned and we had seen the result of homes with larger electrical consumption that had various sizes of PEA electric single phase METERS and how the electrical lights and other appliances would be affected by voltage fluctuations. In a City as large as you live you can find HONEST, EXPERIENCED PRIVATE ELECTRICAL FIRMS that can give you a written price which probably will be lower than the PEA for the same electric cable, transformer and necessary parts" I was told by my electrician (rightly or wrongly) that our line is single phase so we cannot cable our house for 3 phase from the single phase power line. Is this correct?

If I needed to run cable .6km from the nearest transformer or needed another transformer what sort of prices are we talking Ball park for total cheapest solution. I have not idea what the cheapest solution would be 20K 50K 100K. I do know 100K would be near impossible to find as my builder ran out of money and I have had to find 400k more and my total savings are now only 240, baht. I may need a lot of that as emergency should I get ill and need to pay hospital bills.

I am sorry everybody for so many questions and I thank you for you patience and indulgence.

I really AM on the edge of understanding and in my experience ALL electricians I have been referred to or used in Thailand to date are more like odd job men and limited in their knowledge. By the time my poor wife has tried to interpret between us what she totally does not understand and we I and the electricians get told totally differently to what was said. My wife also has a tendency to guess what I mean or what I wish to say often she gets that wrong and I only know when I here a word that is common to English and ask her why she has mentioned the word as it is not applicable to anything I have said. If I knew someone in Khon Kaen who speaks English and knows his onions like Crossy and some others here I would of course speak to him but I need to know enough so I can identify a Bull Shitter or cowboy

Our power has dropped again and I am on UPS Battery so need to sign off within 10 mins (unless it restores).

This is no joke we are not using more than 28 units any day (average 20 ish) and our house is half closed off due to unfinished work. We so far have never run more than 1 of our 5 air cons but will at night use 2 (12,000btu and 18,000btu).

My contractor (is a small family builder he builds Thai houses and as I have found out know very little about Western norms, fitted kitchens and how to install cupboards into kitchen base units or even wall cupboards. He also NEVER reads instruction manuals or mine even when I remind him over and over and over again and draw child proof diagrams and he still does things wrong and then gets upset when I after 5 ignored reminders blow my top when I see he has done something wrong and it will cause delays and more cost to me . He seems to follow the view "Exact measurements are for architects plans and planning depts. but optional for him to follow or not.

Hence why our stairs are being ripped out (at my added expense) and we, for a week after we have had to move in cannot get upstairs. He made the half landing 0.9metres wide when the architect plans said 1.5m. I asked how he expected us to get wardrobes and furniture up the stairs. He shrugged his shoulder. I said he must take the stairs out and do again. Very difficult he said and reminded me he has run out of money.

He. like many builders in Thailand seems to have no comprehension that height of steps should be within 1 cm shortest to max nor did he allow for 3.5cm wooden steps on top making the FIRST steps 24.5cm high (too high). The other steps were pushing max limits in most countries . The first step was so high coz he forgot the base of the first step does not have any wooden step below as it is floor tiles only it but the first step does. Oh he got the top step of the upper flight of stairs wrong in reverse same reason only 18cm whilst others 21.5cm.

It is lucky I am a totally non violent man and that he is my wife’s Uncle but he has tested my verbal temper many times.

What can you do if you get a water pump and say you want it piped to feed to house from the mains when mains water is on and only divert to tank when it is off. I gave him Mitsubishi and Hitachi piping diagrams months ago. Reminded him and the Plumber just before pump installation and both said OK and the plumber fully understood. What did I get? Yes you guessed it "ALL water goes via the pump (noisy for us and neighbours at night) and relies on the pump working or we have no water. Unnecessary waste of electricity as well as extra wear on the pump.

I have become a superb quality controller on house building and learnt so much for a 26 year Office admin worker. Shame the builder knew so little and does not listen when I correctly direct or warn him. He is seriously stressing and depressing me (and himself at the same time)

I digress from my current electrical problems. I was trying to explain why “my contractor would never consider any thing other his immediate building work and why all the kind input I have been given is so very helpful and important to me.

This Forum and it OH SO KIND, patient and time giving members have directed and redirected me in so many ways since my house building commenced and despite a mountain of builder errors I have saved so many others thank to you all.

Crossy and others have enabled me to be in control of the wiring of my house and even though the Electrician is better than most of the other workers Crossy's input has helped avoided errors especially avoiding too thin cabling for some heavy usage appliances. Others have helped on roof insulation Qcon windows and Aircons to name a few main issues I sought advice.

I am not buttering everybody up for more help (which I do ask for ) but because I wish you all to know just how helpful your input has been to me here and in previous House Building issues and certainly never wasted upon me.

Thanks all

Dave

Edited November 6, 2008 by gdhm

[Rimmer]

You are on a standard low tension distribution system, if you want proper power you have to get onto the HT system and then put in a transformer. Maybe the node you are talking about is coming off an HT line through a single phase transformer in which case you are in luck, you can extend the HT lines up your road and ignore the local single phase supply. FYI and reference HT poles are bigger and have a cross arm on the top they carry three wires resting on insulators. You should only need an Single Phase transformer and around 12 poles to carry the HT over your 600 mtrs.

Not so expensive.

Local electricians are not High Tension contractors. They do not install poles and string HT cables between them. They know nothing about voltage drop and size of transformers, they are barely able to calculate correct cable sizes waste of time talking to them.

Talk to the PEA and get the name of two or three of the local licenced HT contractors also get PEA down to give you a price. 600 mtrs is not so far, it is around 12 poles.

I find it pretty amazing that you built a house let alone one with 5 air cons without getting voltage readings and checking out the power availability in the area, what ever were you thinking of?

Golden rule when you see the power lines come marching down the road dig the footings but not before.

[goodguy]

Hi Have you ever tested the supply voltage with a voltmeter/multimeter before and after your problem with the dips in the power. I would do that if I were you. Set the meter to the AC and correct range, be sure to identify the line (live) + and the neutral - with a little Stanley type screwdriver with the little yellow light which glows when current is present. Once you know for sure which is the Line, put your negative probe on the nutral wire first, then add the positive prove to the Line and you should get reading of the actual voltage on your multimeter.

You may well find the it's not so much much the voltage but the current is weak (amps).

There is also the chance the wire which connects your Soi is bacly connected back on the main drag, not clamped on properly or a bridge fuse which they use not being screwed onto the terminals on the power pole properly.

I am not sure what the cost is, but it will not hurt to find out the cost for 600 meters of juicier 25mm cable run to your house.

Having said that, do you really want to have cost of that when in the future, every Tom Dick and Harry may well put their new meters on your lovely line. That is what your are doing to the existing set up anyway.

[dotcom]

Why are you guys so much in a hurry to pay for a service that PEA are supposed to provide for free?

It is up to the government to supply all the homeowners in the area adequate supply.

I suspect you are being screwed over because you are seen as "rich" & "stupid".

I agree you are responsible for your own power meter & all the wiring after it. PEA are responsible for everything to the meter.

Sure if they leave you in the dark for long enough you will be happy to donate equip that is rightfully supposed to be supplied by the ROYAL Thai Government. They have plenty of dosh, they merely need a kick up the backside.

[Crossy]

Crossy

I have tried to take photos but it was not the best of light so I may need to have another go tomorrow. What are you particularly interested in seeing in my photos? Is it the pole feeding our house and the two transformers? The wires on the pole feeding your house would be useful, as well as the pole where it spurs off at the main drag (maybe there's 3-phase there). Check which transformer you're actually connected to by following the wires.

Do you suggest I stick with Thai standard and reverse all my plugs that need and use 3 wires G, N & L and just ignore the wire casing colour? Is that the safest code to follow rather than reversing the house to UK standard. Don't reverse your house outlets, that way lies danger. Most appliances don't actually mind which way round L and N are. If you have extensions with 'proper' UK outlets by all means connect them so the polarity is correct but those 'universal' sockets will always be wrong for one type of plug no matter how you connect them

Please can you also tell me the Thai standard for light switches is UP on or off. (I know Spain was the opposite of UK) Mine are down for on

I need to look up AVR's as I cannot comprehend how an AVR can raise power levels "for ever". This implies to my pea brain less power in more out (which does not seem possible). If the power is low and for hours where does it get its extra and how does it store it for use when needed. (I know my PC UPS needs a battery to do that and it can only give me 10 to 15 mins max for just PC and VDU). An AVR does not boost power, it compensates for the increased output voltage by drawing a greater current from the input side. The big units have a Variac (variable transformer) with a motor and control circuit to adjust it, smaller units have tap-changing relays/triacs or ferro-resonant transformers. Google will help you understand how they work.

Clearly I do not understand these? Can an AVR house size work off a single phase line and be a total solution rather than installing a 3 phase power line at God knows what price? 3-phase is the best solution but there is a cost point where a big AVR becomes more economical, time to check the costs involved with both.

If so what sort or price would an AVR house size coast in Thailand (ball park once again)? No idea but you'll be looking for a unit capable of 50A or so (if you have a 15/45 meter).

[gdhm]

quote name='Rimmer' post='2316955' date='2008-11-06 21:27:03']You are on a standard low tension distribution system, if you want proper power you have to get onto the HT system and then put in a transformer. Maybe the node you are talking about is coming off an HT line through a single phase transformer in which case you are in luck, you can extend the HT lines up your road and ignore the local single phase supply. FYI and reference HT poles are bigger and have a cross arm on the top they carry three wires resting on insulators. You should only need a Single Phase transformer and around 12 poles to carry the HT over your 600 mtrs.

Not so expensive.

Local electricians are not High Tension contractors. They do not install poles and string HT cables between them. They know nothing about voltage drop and size of transformers, they are barely able to calculate correct cable sizes waste of time talking to them.

Talk to the PEA and get the name of two or three of the local licenced HT contractors also get PEA down to give you a price. 600 mtrs is not so far, it is around 12 poles.

I find it pretty amazing that you built a house let alone one with 5 air cons without getting voltage readings and checking out the power availability in the area, what ever were you thinking of?

Golden rule when you see the power lines come marching down the road dig the footings but not before.

Thanks for the helpful info and previous info in this thread Rimmer.

I am confused by your Golden rule comment:

There ARE power lines in our road and concrete poles in my soi

If I do need extra cable laid can I use these concrete poles.

I attach 3 photos of transformers. Our power lines join the lines in that road about 20mtres to the LEFT of the Large Transformer and mtrs to the right of the smaller one. As the smaller one is outside a large monastery could it be that one is for the monastery's private use (I ask as I do not understand why there would be 2 transformers so close to each other - probably ignorant question)

I am, as admitted previously, an Ex Office worker who cannot possibly know all the questions to ask that a builder or electrician would already know or know to ask. You yourself said most local electricians know nothing about these issues.

Regretfully, most electricians I have come across so far in Khon Kaen are merely odd job men who call themselves electricians. Even the better than average one working on our house is not up to normal UK electrician standards.

I have asked many proactive questions on this Forum, however THIS time I have failed to foresee a problem and now need to be reactive.

I DID check with neighbours as best I could based upon my understanding, about all the normal utilities and was not advised of any shortcomings. There is another new modern style house in our road and two in the adjoining soi on the same power line circuit be it a different spur.

My new house is in Khon Kaen City only .8 km from the quite central Bung Kaen Nakhon lake. only 1.5km from centre of town.

KKC is the 4th/5th largest city in Thailand. I felt it reasonable that an electricity supply already in place in our soi was adequate within a major city.

I have KTV cable running to my house (hardly in the sticks as they would never lay cable outside population centres).

We lived 2 years ago for 1 year only .4kms down the road (2 small sois away from my new house) That house seems to be on same circuit (but cannot promise that) and had 2 aircons and no problems. I mistakenly thought things would be OK.

I accept I have failed to foresee this power supply problem and greatly appreciate the advice and suggestion of those such as you, Crossy and others in how I may best and cheaply resolve my problem

Rimmer you mention “Not so expensive”. Please may I ask what you consider a ball park figure MAY be if resolved with your suggestion. I really have no idea of such costs here.

Kind Regards

Dave

Edited November 7, 2008 by gdhm

[Rimmer]

Why are you guys so much in a hurry to pay for a service that PEA are supposed to provide for free?

It is up to the government to supply all the homeowners in the area adequate supply.

I suspect you are being screwed over because you are seen as "rich" & "stupid".

I agree you are responsible for your own power meter & all the wiring after it. PEA are responsible for everything to the meter.

Sure if they leave you in the dark for long enough you will be happy to donate equip that is rightfully supposed to be supplied by the ROYAL Thai Government. They have plenty of dosh, they merely need a kick up the backside.

Regretfully you have to make your own arrangements as the power company feels it is under no obligation to supply you with 220volts when you build a house in the middle of a field. Likewise when you build a large house and the cable size or voltage drop preclude you from getting 220v down the line it is up to the owner to live with it or bring in a suitable supply.

[gdhm]

Crossy

EXTRACT:

I have tried to take photos but it was not the best of light so I may need to have another go tomorrow. What are you particularly interested in seeing in my photos? Is it the pole feeding our house and the two transformers? The wires on the pole feeding your house would be useful, as well as the pole where it spurs off at the main drag (maybe there's 3-phase there). Check which transformer you're actually connected to by following the wires.

Hi Crossy,

I attach photos of

1) our supply pole. the cables to my house go from the pole down a tube beside the pole and under the soi (not over). Picture was taken with my back to my house. The line terminate 5 houses to the left and the supply comes from the right.

2) Y junction down road. between it there are several small spurs feeding 2 or 3 houses. I am in our Soi taking the photos (left side. the other soi to the right feed a few spurs and about 10 houses and then meets another road at right angles and the lines in that road (3 I count) go a long way in both directions with spurs off them.) Our feed I believe comes from the toad where the house is in the middle (certainly that leads to the transformers road where our lines I believe eventually connect to. I say believe because I cannot tell at junctions which way the supply is following FROM.

3) shows you the type of mess on a few poles when trying to follow my cable supply (virtually impossible from the ground to follow as you can see)

Are these of any help Crossy. Files are big so detail can be seen.

Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

Hi Have you ever tested the supply voltage with a voltmeter/multimeter before and after your problem with the dips in the power. I would do that if I were you. Set the meter to the AC and correct range, be sure to identify the line (live) + and the neutral - with a little Stanley type screwdriver with the little yellow light which glows when current is present. Once you know for sure which is the Line, put your negative probe on the nutral wire first, then add the positive prove to the Line and you should get reading of the actual voltage on your multimeter.

You may well find the it's not so much much the voltage but the current is weak (amps).

I will test and hopefully avoid blowing up my multimeter.

What implications are there for weak amps versus weak voltage. Is my PCs UPS a clue to whether I have weak Amps or Voltage. Do UPS's click into battery backup for weak AMPs or weak voltage. Today is not too bad. My UPS has not needed to stay on battery for my PC and less dropouts 3 or 4 an hour (The UPS only switching to battery for a split second each time. Nighttime is definitely worse as i would expect with darkness and people home form work and cooking.

There is also the chance the wire which connects your Soi is bacly connected back on the main drag, not clamped on properly or a bridge fuse which they use not being screwed onto the terminals on the power pole properly.

I am not sure what the cost is, but it will not hurt to find out the cost for 600 meters of juicier 25mm cable run to your house.

I will Try to find a reliable source for the info.

Having said that, do you really want to have cost of that when in the future, every Tom Dick and Harry may well put their new meters on your lovely line. That is what your are doing to the existing set up anyway.

Are you saying if I do this other can tap in at no cost to my line and cause the problems for me all over again. Do I have not rights against that if I have to pay for the line to my house?

What I really want is to go to the Electricity Company and ask them to fix our Sois supply so it provides correct, stable and adequate power to my house and everybody else's house in our street.

That after all is what we are paying for and what they are contracted with me to provide,

I agree 100% with dotcom but I do not know if Thai Electric Companies can do what they like or not.

Edited November 7, 2008 by gdhm

[Crossy]

Hmmm, all is now slightly clearer (as mud)

It looks like your soi originally had a single-phase supply which became too small and was expanded by adding a second phase (different insulator styles). Unfortunately it looks like your man is correct and true 3-phase is not available.

Not ideal, but you could get a bigger supply by using the two available phases (and a second meter) which would at least split your load between the two supplies. Unfortunately it will mean bigger standing charges but worth asking about.

OR

Since two phases are already available it would only require running a single cable from the transformer to bring in a third phase for real 3-phase.

Did you notice the birds nest in amongst the cable TV wiring on the second photo

[Rimmer]

Nice pictures!! The neighbors must be quite worried about you taking pictures of transformers.

Great you have a three phase High Tension supply with a 100kva transformer. How far are you from the transformer?

If the low tension cable feeding your road is small then you will be getting some voltage drop as well as the other owners taking some power.

IMHO the options are:

Maybe the power company can upgrade the cable size in your road to reduce voltage drop.

Failing that maybe they can install your own low tension cable off the transformer.

Failing the above you will have to extend the existing HT system then buy your own transformer.

I have done three HT lines and transformers systems for myself and friends but not recently. If I remember correctly the poles are around 12000 baht each and a 50kva TP transformer about 30,000 baht.

Don't know if there is anything to be gained by putting in three a three phase LT supply as they may be so unbalanced as to be almost unusable but you could run a single phase HT line to a single phase transformer this would cut down the cost of cable considerably if you are forced to put in your own HT.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Rimmer

[gdhm]

Why are you guys so much in a hurry to pay for a service that PEA are supposed to provide for free?

It is up to the government to supply all the homeowners in the area adequate supply.

I suspect you are being screwed over because you are seen as "rich" & "stupid".

I agree you are responsible for your own power meter & all the wiring after it. PEA are responsible for everything to the meter.

Sure if they leave you in the dark for long enough you will be happy to donate equip that is rightfully supposed to be supplied by the ROYAL Thai Government. They have plenty of dosh, they merely need a kick up the backside.

Regretfully you have to make your own arrangements as the power company feels it is under no obligation to supply you with 220volts when you build a house in the middle of a field. Likewise when you build a large house and the cable size or voltage drop preclude you from getting 220v down the line it is up to the owner to live with it or bring in a suitable supply.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it but when you have a temporary meter they charge like twice as much per unit as a permanent meter. So if you still have a temp it pays to get a permanent.

[gdhm]

Thanks again for you input Rimmer its very helpful.

Nice pictures!! The neighbors must be quite worried about you taking pictures of transformers.

I did get some strange looks/smiles, but I suspect they put it down to just a crazy fat Farang with friendly smile on his face.

Great you have a three phase High Tension supply with a 100kva transformer. How far are you from the transformer?

Exactly 0.6km by road following the poles to my house.

If the low tension cable feeding your road is small then you will be getting some voltage drop as well as the other owners taking some power.

Looks small see other pic of our pole in reply to Crossy

IMHO the options are:

Maybe the power company can upgrade the cable size in your road to reduce voltage drop.

Failing that maybe they can install your own low tension cable off the transformer.

Failing the above you will have to extend the existing HT system then buy your own transformer.

I have done three HT lines and transformers systems for myself and friends but not recently. If I remember correctly the poles are around 12000 baht each and a 50kva TP transformer about 30,000 baht.

Can't I use the existing concrete poles going down the Sois Rimmer? I doubt I would be allowed to drive in my own down the sois

Don't know if there is anything to be gained by putting in three a three phase LT supply as they may be so unbalanced as to be almost unusable but you could run a single phase HT line to a single phase transformer this would cut down the cost of cable considerably if you are forced to put in your own HT.

[kamalabob2]

GDHM: I did post price bids with phone numbers on this subject on Thai Visa. Who do you think provides the Electrical service to a large retail store? For a large Disco? To a small factory a bit off the main road. It is NOT free, the PEA has written guidelines on what is included in ANY level of new service. If you are farther than a specific distance from existing suitable power lines and/or transformer you the customer pay someone to install the proper equipment. As I have posted on Thai Visa the headquarters in Bangkok of the PEA has staff who understand and speak English.

Say you and your wife go to the local PEA office and have the engineering staff of the local PEA come and look at your ELECTRIC PLANS, actual house and point of connecting at a "street". They can give you a written price quote with a list of equipment needed. You can PHONE or e-mail to the PEA headquarters in Bangkok for a English language clarification. My wife REFUSES to translate building details for fear of "assuming" and then being incorrect. But she pointed me in the direction of a retired English Teacher who has been worth the minor money to translate possible contracts. I live in a small town, but we had no problem getting a SERIOUS electrical contractor with proper equipment and trained crews to do the installation for less money than the PEA.

The PEA is cheap to install (hook up) single phase service to a "typical" two bedroom Thai home very near the street with existing power lines going by the front yard. But if you are a serious distance from the existing lines, and/or require more service CAPABILITY (you can say you will not turn on all the a/c units, but they had sort of minimum service requirement due to our electrical plan) then it is time to "step up" and bite the bullet. Painful at this point in the building process. Our contractor was very clear in her contract that electrical hook up was NOT part of her building price as she did not know what we would want in the way of a/c units, electric oven, once it got closer to finishing the home. She HAD built for Farang.

I paid 700,000 LESS than Rimmer to have permenant electrical service PLUS I paid for a deposit, meter and some minor fee to the PEA.

Now Rimmer has felt PAIN!! Our monthly electric bill is always UNDER 3600 baht. The Three phase transformer is ON OUR PROPERTY, next to our garage. The PEA supplied and installed meter is on the same large pole I purchased from the private electrical contractor.

You MUST have electricians with similar equipment and skills in a huge city. Have your wife ask at a larger store which firm they used to install their electric service. Those orange trucks are a PRIVATE CONTRACTOR, not PEA vehicles. Good Luck. Little to Thai women realize they might become a building construction translator if they marry a Farang.

[kamalabob2]

NICE MAPS. If you look at some previous posts you will see the MANDATORY SIZE and height to be able to carry three phase electricity. Once you have an engineer from the PEA come to your actual location it will be much more clear. They will show your wife where the possible hook up can take place. We insisted on the three phase Transformer to be located on our property. It really is MORE than just a transformer when you look closely and see the list of materials they will put on the written quote. It is NOT a handyman who does this sort of installation. They must be licensed, not kidding. They have to present a thick written detailed plan to the PEA for permission to start the installation. This plan must specify every piece of equipment as they want to tie you into the main high voltage service which could cause great trouble if they were rookies.

[gdhm]

Why are you guys so much in a hurry to pay for a service that PEA are supposed to provide for free?

It is up to the government to supply all the homeowners in the area adequate supply.

I suspect you are being screwed over because you are seen as "rich" & "stupid".

I agree you are responsible for your own power meter & all the wiring after it. PEA are responsible for everything to the meter.

Sure if they leave you in the dark for long enough you will be happy to donate equip that is rightfully supposed to be supplied by the ROYAL Thai Government. They have plenty of dosh, they merely need a kick up the backside.

Regretfully you have to make your own arrangements as the power company feels it is under no obligation to supply you with 220volts when you build a house in the middle of a field. Likewise when you build a large house and the cable size or voltage drop preclude you from getting 220v down the line it is up to the owner to live with it or bring in a suitable supply.

don't know what I pressed to post #20 before adding my intended comments - so here they are belatedly.

As you can see we are not in a field and whilst there are more plots of land without houses as one drives down our road we are still close to "where it all happens in KKC"

Rimmer why would cable size preclude us getting 220V down the line if we are not drawing high levels of power? Does cable size have an adverse affect?

I know we have a large house with two 25mm2 cables to a 30A meter BUT we only have the 2 cables to cater for my desire to have several appliances on separate circuit breakers and hence we needed to consumer units with 18 breakers each (not all used but some 30 are). We are not a high electricity user family our average with 9000 btu aircons used each night at our largish rental was 26 units a day in cool months and 32 max in hot months (bill 2,500 baht - 3,700 baht). Since we have lived in our house 1 week we are using 26 on average a day. our one used aircon 18,000 btu at present is on around 10 hours a day of which 8 are over night.

I consider our usage moderate to small compared to many Farang?Thai household. We are only me my Thai wife and 5 year old son.

Even over night when the whole street is asleep and where very few air cons are owned (poor Thai families mostly) we get power dropouts every 20 min or so when all WE have on in the house is 3 fridges and 1 aircon.

I feel this cannot be considered high usage or reasonable Electricity company supply. Our neighbours with small demands and smaller cables and meter are also being affected like us -more so since ewe moved in.

Despite our small extra usage on the supply compared to a week ago it seems the lines have ALREADY been pushed to their limits prior to our arrival. DO you feel I may be wrong in this assessment and if so why please?

Rimmer do you feel we are expecting or using unreasonable or high levels of power. I feel the Electricity Company have to problem and not that we have demanded too much of the system.

Would everybody agree that my next best step is to ask my wife to speak to the Electricity Company and see what they say/suggest come up with. Stronger if they Bullshit her and point out the neighbours (not only us) are being affected?

Regards

Dave

Edited November 7, 2008 by gdhm

[gdhm]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it but when you have a temporary meter they charge like twice as much per unit as a permanent meter. So if you still have a temp it pays to get a permanent.

Thanks Have done that.

They enjoyed telling me the 15A temp meter needed changing up to a 30A and that cable to my house was too small. The cost of the 30A meter was close to double the cost of the 15A. Seems like a Rip Off to me. How much does a bigger fuse cost for goodness sake! Not several 1000 Baht I am sure and the installation is just the same.

Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

GDHM: I did post price bids with phone numbers on this subject on Thai Visa. Who do you think provides the Electrical service to a large retail store? For a large Disco? To a small factory a bit off the main road. It is NOT free, the PEA has written guidelines on what is included in ANY level of new service. If you are farther than a specific distance from existing suitable power lines and/or transformer you the customer pay someone to install the proper equipment. As I have posted on Thai Visa the headquarters in Bangkok of the PEA has staff who understand and speak English.

Say you and your wife go to the local PEA office and have the engineering staff of the local PEA come and look at your ELECTRIC PLANS, actual house and point of connecting at a "street". They can give you a written price quote with a list of equipment needed. You can PHONE or e-mail to the PEA headquarters in Bangkok for a English language clarification. My wife REFUSES to translate building details for fear of "assuming" and then being incorrect. But she pointed me in the direction of a retired English Teacher who has been worth the minor money to translate possible contracts. I live in a small town, but we had no problem getting a SERIOUS electrical contractor with proper equipment and trained crews to do the installation for less money than the PEA.

The PEA is cheap to install (hook up) single phase service to a "typical" two bedroom Thai home very near the street with existing power lines going by the front yard. But if you are a serious distance from the existing lines, and/or require more service CAPABILITY (you can say you will not turn on all the a/c units, but they had sort of minimum service requirement due to our electrical plan) then it is time to "step up" and bite the bullet. Painful at this point in the building process. Our contractor was very clear in her contract that electrical hook up was NOT part of her building price as she did not know what we would want in the way of a/c units, electric oven, once it got closer to finishing the home. She HAD built for Farang.

I seem to be giving to impression we are in the middle of nowhere. I have not made myself clear. I live in a soi with concreted road and power line poles all along it on one side of the road. Our pole is on the other side of the road. Our garden front wall is only 5 metres from the pole and our house itself 8 meters from the front gate. Essentially our consumer boxes are only in total 25 metres from the Company Electricity pole and main supply.

I am taking the photo from the soi in front of our house and you can see the temp power line coming from the Electricity Power pole just 3 metres behind me. Consequently I feel the PEA cannot claim I am in an "out of way" location or that it is hard to get cable or line close to my house Or those of my neighbours (existing poles and power cables are already in place be they inadequate)

The second photo was before we started building. The pole on the right is the Soi Electricity pole form where our House is fed. It is directly opposite our right gate post and our neighbours gate post (very near to our house)

I paid 700,000 LESS than Rimmer to have permanent electrical service PLUS I paid for a deposit, meter and some minor fee to the PEA.

Now Rimmer has felt PAIN!! Our monthly electric bill is always UNDER 3600 baht. In the last 15 months we have always been under 2,900 except once when we hit 3,300 Baht I feel we are not large users even though we now have a big house we are bill conscious and my wife does not like or need Aircons much. The Three phase transformer is ON OUR PROPERTY, next to our garage. The PEA supplied and installed meter is on the same large pole I purchased from the private electrical contractor.

You MUST have electricians with similar equipment and skills in a huge city. Have your wife ask at a larger store which firm they used to install their electric service. Those orange trucks are a PRIVATE CONTRACTOR, not PEA vehicles. Good Luck. Little to Thai women realise they might become a building construction translator if they marry a Farang.

Would it be better to ask on of the housing project companies building here? There are quite a few and they must have knowledge for their own new project supplies.

Regards Dave

PS Just wanted to say how much my wife and I appreciate those who have replied to me for your effort, time and detailed answers in helping and guiding me.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FROM BOTH OF US

(this subject really is not in our sphere of knowledge, nor in our ignorance did we foresee the potential problems when we decided to buy the land and build our home. I am desperately trying to keep up and respond and acknowledge the replies. As I finish one another has been posted .

I will sit down tonight and read all the helpful info in depth. I am sure not all has sunk in or been fully understood by me yet

Edited November 7, 2008 by gdhm

[gdhm]

Crossy, I have mentioned earlier that my house electrician decided to run two 25mm2 power cable to my houses 2 consumer units from the meter on the pole.

I note in your website you have a diagram and details of how to split supply between two consumer units which would require only a single cable from the meter into he house.

Please can I ask 2 more questions

1) is my setup likely to have any affect on my power supply problems

2) are both method equal (except mine is more costly on cable) or are there other positives/negatives to one of the methods

Thanks

Dave

[Crossy]

Crossy, I have mentioned earlier that my house electrician decided to run two 25mm2 power cable to my houses 2 consumer units from the meter on the pole.

I note in your website you have a diagram and details of how to split supply between two consumer units which would require only a single cable from the meter into he house.

Your two cables provide live and neutral (a single-phase supply). I think you are mis-interpreting the purpose of a split-service CU which is intended to reduce the possibility of losing the contents of your freezer in the event of an earth-leakage trip. Sadly it will not improve your voltage regulation and dropout issues.

We're starting to run out of options here

Just installing a 30/100 meter will not improve dropouts and volt drop, by the way, they replace the meter not just put in a bigger fuse. If you do go for it anyway your 25mm cable should be fine for the bigger meter (good for 100A) if the run is short.

Measure your outlet voltage at various times of the day (say every hour) and record, also record all your outages (the ideal solution would be a supply logger). Armed with this information you may be able to persuade PEA to do something (but unless others in your area are complaining don't hold your breath).

Investigate running a cable pair from the third phase of the transformer, if it's 600m and assuming you're going to have the bigger meter you'll need a fat 180mm2 cable to keep the volt drop acceptable (which won't be cheap)

The HT (25kV) doesn't come to your street and the poles are not suitable for it, so having your own transformer is probably not an option.

Otherwise AVRs to fix the voltage to the fridge and aircons and a UPS on your AV sytem and PC (to cover the black/brownouts) is likely your only economical solution

Edited November 8, 2008 by Crossy

[gdhm]

Thanks Crossy,

I did not think or expect my cabling to relevant.

AVRs. Tried reading up on them but many sites talk about back up generator AVRs, whilst I am not seeking emergency backup power.

I will not try to understand how they work by adjusting voltage and Amp but will just ask you what I need to know for MY situation please.

Sorry if I am repeating any question I just want to be 100% clear on what an AVR can/or cannot achieve for me.

If I got one for whole house 50A (I think was suggested and it was available and affordable).

Would it.

1) Cope with low voltage indefinitely.

2) If NOT, how long would it cope with a continuous spell of low voltage.

3) I know they will cope with momentary spikes and dropouts already

4) Do AVRs consume added electricity to run and do their job. If so what are we talking?

6) Are they noisy?

7) Where do they fit in the power circuit?

8) Do they produce harmful electromagnetic waves or annoying interference etc. to any appliances like TVs for example.

5) Are there any downsides you think I may not realise or understand.

You seemed at one stage to be suggesting (I thought anyway ) that transformers or upgrading my line from the existing transformer .6kms away was the advisable way to go . Earlier you seemed (to me) to have given me answers about AVRs suggesting they would be my best and easiest solution.

I feel CERTAIN I have missed some point(s) here and assuming so I apologise. I'd greatly appreciate you telling me which direction is best to steer toward (line upgrade or house size AVR) and why please and I will follow up your advice as best I can.

Many Thanks

Dave

Edited November 8, 2008 by gdhm