Bouddhism, Does hel_l And Heaven Exists Or Not?

[coalminer]

A few years ago, I had a discussion in another forum about religion and a member uphold his position that Bouddhism was "a religion" that does not terrorize people with the fear that their soul will be send to hel_l and suffer inhuman pains if they ware doing something bad.

Apart of the fact of Bouddhism being a religion or not, in all my years living in Thailand I came to a whole different conclusion.

Yesterday at school, while talking jokingly with a few mothers, one of them which was single said that she would fancy to marry a fahrang like me. Again jokingly, I answerrred her that that would be very easy. I would go with my wife to the Amphur to get a divorce and the next day I would marry her.

To which she answerred that this was not a good idea because Bouddha would send her to hel_l if she was the cause of my divorce. Something like the commandment in the Christian religion that one shall never wanting their neighbors wife.

In the local Mall, every year several expositions are hold where Bouddhist monks are selling all kind of books (mostly books about predicting the right numbers on the lottery as these books sell like Candy), amulets, CD/DVD's, and many more.

In this expositions, a hall imitiating the life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

In many Bouddhist temples in Thailand, life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

Thai people are the most superstitious people I ever met.

Building gosthouses, wearing a lot of amulets around their neck, horn blowing at every gosthouse (or the reamins of it). etc...

Seeing all this, I would rather choose for being a Catholic or having no religion at all.

At least, Catholicism never showed me such an attitude about living in the hel_l.

What do you think?

[jumnien]

Desire is suffering (hel_l), nibbana is heaven. Simple. All the world is more similar than different. World views are remarkably similar throughout the ages.

[clausewitz]

the Buddha used a carrot and stick approach. He warned of the hells so that people would avoid doing deeds leading to hel_l.

[IMA_FARANG]

A few years ago, I had a discussion in another forum about religion and a member uphold his position that Bouddhism was "a religion" that does not terrorize people with the fear that their soul will be send to hel_l and suffer inhuman pains if they ware doing something bad.

Apart of the fact of Bouddhism being a religion or not, in all my years living in Thailand I came to a whole different conclusion.

Yesterday at school, while talking jokingly with a few mothers, one of them which was single said that she would fancy to marry a fahrang like me. Again jokingly, I answerrred her that that would be very easy. I would go with my wife to the Amphur to get a divorce and the next day I would marry her.

To which she answerred that this was not a good idea because Bouddha would send her to hel_l if she was the cause of my divorce. Something like the commandment in the Christian religion that one shall never wanting their neighbors wife.

In the local Mall, every year several expositions are hold where Bouddhist monks are selling all kind of books (mostly books about predicting the right numbers on the lottery as these books sell like Candy), amulets, CD/DVD's, and many more.

In this expositions, a hall imitiating the life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

In many Bouddhist temples in Thailand, life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

Thai people are the most superstitious people I ever met.

Building gosthouses, wearing a lot of amulets around their neck, horn blowing at every gosthouse (or the reamins of it). etc...

Seeing all this, I would rather choose for being a Catholic or having no religion at all.

At least, Catholicism never showed me such an attitude about living in the hel_l.

What do you think?

Apparently you have a lot to learn about Buddhisim, Thailand, and a few other things also.

However, back to the point, Buddhisim is not a "religion" in the sense that Catholicisim is a religion.

The Buddha was a human being, not a God. His teachings are a method of learning to eliminate the suffering and pain from life.

In Buddhisim the question of whether there is a heaven or hel_l is just not important.

It simply does not change the message of how you can improve your life by following the rules of conduct set by the Buddha.

As for the monks you see selling books on how to win the lottery or such...that is part of the baggage that the Thai culture hangs on real Buddhisim. It comes from the other influences that have attached themselves to Buddhisim in Thailand over the years. Such "magical" things and the amulants that Thais wear are not part of whatever is "real' Buddhisim. They are just part of the popular culture.

Just for the record, and not criticising, I think that the average Thai has a pretty shallow and superficial knowledge of Buddhisim. That is also the fact in most Christian countries, many people who consider themselves Christian have only a superficial knowledge of Christianity. That's just human nature.

But anyway, back to your original question....Does Buddhisim have a Heaven or He-l. The answer is really no...it isn't important.

[coalminer]

Apparently you have a lot to learn about Buddhisim, Thailand, and a few other things also.

However, back to the point, Buddhisim is not a "religion" in the sense that Catholicisim is a religion.

That point was already addressed in my OP.

The Buddha was a human being, not a God. His teachings are a method of learning to eliminate the suffering and pain from life.

In Buddhisim the question of whether there is a heaven or hel_l is just not important.

It simply does not change the message of how you can improve your life by following the rules of conduct set by the Buddha.

I didn't ask about the importance of heaven and hel_l.

Just if they exist and being used in Buddhism.

According to what I have witnessed in Thailand, they exist and are being used every day in (Thai) Buddhism.

As for the monks you see selling books on how to win the lottery or such...that is part of the baggage that the Thai culture hangs on real Buddhisim. It comes from the other influences that have attached themselves to Buddhisim in Thailand over the years. Such "magical" things and the amulants that Thais wear are not part of whatever is "real' Buddhisim. They are just part of the popular culture.

One of the local temples in the province I live is every year collecting millions of Baht as a donation to the temple. I was surprised that one particular temple could gather so much money and the others less. Until a neighbor gave me the reason. I went with him to that local temple on a Wednesday and people from all over the country were gathering to hear the BUDDHIST monks pronounce the winning numbers for the next lottery draw.

So, according to you, THAI BUDDHISM is not the REAL BUDDHISM.

It already amazed me that the Thai Buddha is a small guy where the Chinese Buddha is a fat guy.

Just for the record, and not criticising, I think that the average Thai has a pretty shallow and superficial knowledge of Buddhisim.

I hope that the MOD's are not reading this.

Criticizing the Thais and their RELIGION.

Not trying to teach you a few things, but in ALL Thai official documents Buddhism is considered as a religion together with Christian, Muslin, a. o.

Try to fill in any official document in Thailand and you will need to fill in a box labeled "Religion".

That is also the fact in most Christian countries, many people who consider themselves Christian have only a superficial knowledge of Christianity. That's just human nature.

Yes, many Christian "people" have only a superficial knowledge of Christianity.

But the Christian priests and the Christian monks have a deeper knowledge of Christianity and don't go selling amulets that can stop a bullet and lucky lottery numbers.

But anyway, back to your original question....Does Buddhisim have a Heaven or He-l. The answer is really no...it isn't important.

That is completely different if you see the many expositions about Buddhism, the superstitious people about Buddhism, people wearing all kind of amulets that are supposed to protect them, movies where a Buddhist monk deflects bullets, etc...

Maybe, according to your explanation, we should change the title of this post to:

"Does hel_l and heaven exists in THAI Bouddhism?"

[sabaijai]

Welcome to the Buddhism subforum, Coalminer. There have been two previous discussion threads on this topic, so perhaps you could read through those and add to one or the other.

Buddhism and hel_l

Nirvana: Is it heaven (or God)?

[Brucenkhamen]

In Buddhist mythology there is no permanant hea\/en or permanant he// as we know them in judeo christian religions.

In Buddhist mythology there are multiple hea\/en and he// realms which equate to various mind states that can be experienced in this lifetime, they are not seen as permanant but as phases that you go through as a result of your past actions. As I say these are experienced in this lifetime, not everybody takes them as literal places that you can experience after death, it's not necessary to believe or disbelieve in them to practice Buddhism.

If that is a difficult concept to get you head around then it's understandable that after thousands of years a more simplistic belief in a hea\/en and he// more like what we see judeo christian religions is common for prevails in Thailand. While in Western Buddhists there is no such belief, after all why change religion to something almost the same, but varying opinions on what the mythology of multiple hea\/en and he// realms meas in terms of the teaching.

As far as the amulet industry as far as I'm aware no other Buddhist culture outside of Thailand has it, so it's more a reflection on Thai people rather than on Buddhism.

[Tim207]

Maybe, according to your explanation, we should change the title of this post to:

"Does hel_l and heaven exists in THAI Bouddhism?"

I have to agree with IMA_FARANG. Thai's may call their beliefs Buddhism, and Buddha is their central figure, but it has little in common with the teachings of Buddha. As a matter of fact, much of it is in direct conflict with the teachings of Buddha. So your question about heaven and hel_l in Buddhism depends on your perspective and exactly what you are asking. Buddha taught to believe in only what can be verified so since people can not go to these places or verify their existance they are not a consideration in how you live your life. On the other hand. if you want the Thai belief system answer, then yes. Thai people often believe in hel_l although I am not sure about heaven.

BTW: I am not some new age Buddhist following a strict interpretation of doctrine or looking down at Thais thinking I am superior and know better. I am not even Buddhist. I looked into the subject because I wanted to learn more about what was going on around me at various Thai ceremonies. I was amazed to find that Buddha's teachings had nothing to do with what goes on. Another interesting thing I found was how similar the way I have always lived my life is to his teachings.

[coalminer]

In Buddhist mythology there is no permanant hea\/en or permanant he// as we know them in judeo christian religions.

In Buddhist mythology there are multiple hea\/en and he// realms which equate to various mind states that can be experienced in this lifetime, they are not seen as permanant but as phases that you go through as a result of your past actions. As I say these are experienced in this lifetime, not everybody takes them as literal places that you can experience after death, it's not necessary to believe or disbelieve in them to practice Buddhism.

If that is a difficult concept to get you head around then it's understandable that after thousands of years a more simplistic belief in a hea\/en and he// more like what we see judeo christian religions is common for prevails in Thailand. While in Western Buddhists there is no such belief, after all why change religion to something almost the same, but varying opinions on what the mythology of multiple hea\/en and he// realms meas in terms of the teaching.

As far as the amulet industry as far as I'm aware no other Buddhist culture outside of Thailand has it, so it's more a reflection on Thai people rather than on Buddhism.

OK, according to you, heaven and hel_l are not in Buddhism are situations in THIS LIFETIME.

I can not describe what is displayed in the expositions in the Mall or the Buddhist temples, bit I suggest that you know what I'm talking about.

In many Buddhist temples in Thailand, figures are build, depicting people in crucial pain whilst being tormented with axes and other attributes by "devils".

So, nothing of this is real, but only a way to depict the suffering humans will go trough if they don't follow the teachings of the Buddha IN THIS LIFE.

I can also accept your explanation that after 200 years of "more simplistic belief", (Thai) Buddhism has grown into something that is almost the same as the other religions.

But all this "changing" of Buddhism only strengthens my believe that all the "religions (including Buddhism)" are "man made" and changes over the years according to the changes in time. No "religion (including Buddhism) is pure anymore and thus cannot be thrusted anymore IMHO.

Nobody (except maybe some very high placed Cardinals) have ever read the whole Holy Bible.

In my school years, I have learned in history study that Christians were presented with the possibility to "buy tickets" which took away a sin. Something like a true lottery.

Strange how this can be related now to Buddhists who goes to a monk, are wheeped on the head a few times with a broom and are freed from their sins and they can ask the monk the winning numbers of the lottery (desire = sin).

I don't try to minimalize your beliefs and I don't intend to mock any religion, but every religion (again including Buddhism) has been turned in a ridicule merry-go-round by humans who have tried to rewrite this religion to reflect the changes in the knowledge of their followers.

[coalminer]

I have to agree with IMA_FARANG. Thai's may call their beliefs Buddhism, and Buddha is their central figure, but it has little in common with the teachings of Buddha.

Read my answer to "BruceKhamen".

I agree with you for the full 150% that Thai Buddhism has little in common with the teachings of Buddha.

But so does Christianity as well, and many "man made" religions.

The fact that every religious book has been rewritten over the years to reflect the increased knowledge of the common people is the best proof of this.

As a matter of fact, much of it is in direct conflict with the teachings of Buddha. So your question about heaven and hel_l in Buddhism depends on your perspective and exactly what you are asking.

Like I said before, the subject tittle should be changed to "Does hel_l and heaven exists in THAI Buddhism" as it seems now that Thai Buddhism has little or nothing to do with the real Buddhist teachings.

Buddha taught to believe in only what can be verified so since people can not go to these places or verify their existance they are not a consideration in how you live your life. On the other hand. if you want the Thai belief system answer, then yes. Thai people often believe in hel_l although I am not sure about heaven.

Exactly.

Buddha teach to believe only in what can be verified, no superstitions.

Thus Thai Buddhism has little or nothing to do with the real Buddhism.

"Sawan" is a word frequently spoken by Thai people.

So, I believe that Thais believe in heaven.

Heaven is also depicted in the expositions in The Mall and Buddhist temples.

BTW: I am not some new age Buddhist following a strict interpretation of doctrine or looking down at Thais thinking I am superior and know better. I am not even Buddhist. I looked into the subject because I wanted to learn more about what was going on around me at various Thai ceremonies. I was amazed to find that Buddha's teachings had nothing to do with what goes on. Another interesting thing I found was how similar the way I have always lived my life is to his teachings.

The same with me.

I'm not a Buddhist and I don't believe in "man made" religions.

I believe that there must exists some "superior" being who created the galaxy.

Give this "superior" being the name you want (God, Jahweh, Jehovah, etc), they are all one and the same.

I began to look into the subject Buddhism after I found such discrepancies in the folllowers and the monks.

Teaching that all desire leads to un-happyness, but on the other hand preaching in the temple the winning lottery numbers.

[Brucenkhamen]

OK, according to you, heaven and hel_l are not in Buddhism are situations in THIS LIFETIME.

I can not describe what is displayed in the expositions in the Mall or the Buddhist temples, bit I suggest that you know what I'm talking about.

In many Buddhist temples in Thailand, figures are build, depicting people in crucial pain whilst being tormented with axes and other attributes by "devils".

So, nothing of this is real, but only a way to depict the suffering humans will go trough if they don't follow the teachings of the Buddha IN THIS LIFE.

The way Buddhist mythology hea\/en and he// applies to this lifetime is something we experience. I'm not saying that's all there is to hea\/en and he// though, but I don't know what happens after you or I die and as the Buddha taught us not to believe things blindly I don't. Buddhism the way I understand it is just as valid if this lifetime is all there is.

But all this "changing" of Buddhism only strengthens my believe that all the "religions (including Buddhism)" are "man made" and changes over the years according to the changes in time. No "religion (including Buddhism) is pure anymore and thus cannot be thrusted anymore IMHO.

Buddhism is man made, as far as I know the Buddha never claimed otherwise.

[2008bangkok]

I didnt really read ya thread so apologys but i can tell you that hel_l and heaven definately does exist

hel_l was invented the same time as women and heaven came when skyy cam up with the SKY+

+

[rockyysdt]

It already amazed me that the Thai Buddha is a small guy where the Chinese Buddha is a fat guy.

There are many stories why the Buddha is depicted as being fat.

The Chinese during the Tang dynasty, worshiped fatness linking it to wealth strength and success.

They modeled the Buddha statue with a fat image which would bring its owner luck by rubbing its tummy.

Again this had nothing to do with the original teachings of the Buddha or original Buddhism.

Another story goes:

Siddharta Gautama (Buddha), looking for true happiness and the answer to life embarked on a life of feasting, overindulgence and merriment until one day he found himself fat, lazy and still unhappy. Convinced this wasn't the way, he then followed an ascetic life, walking the world with nothing but the clothes on his back with very little to eat until his body wasted away. Close to death due lack of food, he stumbled by the side of the road and lay there close to death. Looking up, he then realised that the answer was neither overindulgence or deprivation but to live the middle path.

Edited November 8, 2008 by rockyysdt

[garro]

It is my understanding that the fat Buddha is meant to be Mattreya who many in the Pure Land school believe will be the next Buddha. For people of this school the real meat of Buddhism has been lost and they eagerly await the next Buddha.

As for the OP, it is my view that heaven and hel_l in Buddhism refer to states of mind. As an ex-addict this makes sense to me as no hel_l could hold a greater torture than that of an active drunk. The Buddha's mission was to help people escape all types of suffering after he found a method which worked for him. He was not a god.

If you look at religions such as Catholicism you will see that it takes on different flavors around the world. The Catholicism practiced in Ireland is very different to what is practiced in the Philippines. This is because they have been influenced by local beliefs prior to Christianity. A similar thing has occurred with Buddhism.

The path the Buddha prescribed is not easy and unlike most other religions many of its practitioners do not really want to reach the final goal. Most Thai people I talk to are afraid of the idea of Nirvana and so practice at best a form of Buddhist-lite which will make living easier rather than escaping suffering fully. I do not think that this was the Buddha's intention.

Coalminer, I do not wish to offend you but your knowledge of Buddhism is very superficial and perhaps you should investigate more before making sweeping statements about it.

Edited November 8, 2008 by garro

[coalminer]

They modeled the Buddha statue with a fat image which would bring its owner luck by rubbing its tummy.

555555555555555555555555

Didn't know that.

Will buy such a "fat guy" Buddha and rub his tummy everyday.

Will keep you informed about the results.

[coalminer]

As for the OP, it is my view that heaven and hel_l in Buddhism refer to states of mind. As an ex-addict this makes sense to me as no hel_l could hold a greater torture than that of an active drunk. The Buddha's mission was to help people escape all types of suffering after he found a method which worked for him. He was not a god.

That's your personal view of the existing of heaven and hel_l.

I don't wish to offend you, but I asked if heaven and hel_l exists in Bouddhism.

I remember a Dutch song which was very popular in the early '70's:

"Weet je wat ik zie als ik gedronken heb (do you know what I see when I have been drinking)".

"Creepers everywhere, on my tummy, in my head, walking in my nose and ears..."

That would describe hel_l for an active drunk perfectly.

If you look at religions such as Catholicism you will see that it takes on different flavors around the world. The Catholicism practiced in Ireland is very different to what is practiced in the Philippines. This is because they have been influenced by local beliefs prior to Christianity. A similar thing has occurred with Buddhism.

Catholicism exists in many flavors all over the world.

It would fill a book to summarize all the flavors of Catholicism.

The Philippines, in the same way as the Spaniards conquered many nations all over the world and forced them to convert to Catholicism and give all their belongings to the "chearch" (and invented the "Inquisition" in the name of Catholicism) is not the true Catholicism.

I wonder if anybody knows "true" Catholicism, as the real manuscripts on which Catholicism is based are kept secret to the outside world.

Until the end of the 17th century, the ordinary people had never read a bible.

The same goes for Buddhism.

Has anybody read the real manuscripts of the Buddha?

I doubt strongly.

All "religions" are "man made" and the their only purpose is to give their founders more wealth.

They change colors with the wind.

Look at the Cathedrals around the world which took many centuries to build and cost fortunes.

Look at the Bouddhist temples around the world who display with proudness a myriad of Bouddha statues in pure gold.

Didn't the Buddha said that wealth brings suffering?

Didn't God said trough his son Jezus that everybody should share his wealth with others?

I guess these thing which they preach to us everyday don't count for them ....

The path the Buddha prescribed is not easy and unlike most other religions many of its practitioners do not really want to reach the final goal. Most Thai people I talk to are afraid of the idea of Nirvana and so practice at best a form of Buddhist-lite which will make living easier rather than escaping suffering fully. I do not think that this was the Buddha's intention.

Most Thai people I had talk with are not only affraid on Nirvana but also affraid of "narok".

I'm 150% sure that this was not Buddha's intention.

I'm also 150% sure that it was not the intention of God to affraid the people who believed in him.

That's why I dont believe in "man made religions" (including Bouddhism).

Fact is that all religions I know are impossible to achieve fully, only to keep the practitioners keep coming back to the temples and monks, ask for an explanation, and give a donation to the monks (which are used the day after at the local IT-Center).

Coalminer, I do not wish to offend you but your knowledge of Buddhism is very superficial and perhaps you should investigate more before making sweeping statements about it.

You don't offend me.

Au contraire, I like to discuss this matter with everyone, including you, as long as the answers are not md slinging or personal.

I wist to have answers on the existance of heaven and hel_l in Buddhism.

But I don't wish to waste my time on reading yet another "religion" which at the end boils all to the same as all the other religions.

I remember a discussion in another forum where a fervent Bouddhist claimed that the 10 Commandments existed in a similar way in Bouddhism but the difference was that Bouddhism didn't call them "commandments".

Silly and a total waste of time.

I'd rather spend my time in reading "Murphy's Laws" which contains also a lot of wisdom and are more pleasant to read.

A little anecdote to end my long rant:

A few years ago, I was at the village of my wife.

The local temple was run by "Buddhist nun's" and one of them had 2 big German Shepherds (the dogs).

One day, villagers passed by with a "money tree", singing and collecting money for the local temple.

On this tree, banknotes of 100 Baht and even 500 Baht were attached.

This from people who earned 100 Baht a day if they were lucky to have found work for that day.

Young kid's and toddlers ware playing in the sun heat, poorly dressed.

Suddenly, the Buddhist nun passed by on her walk to the local shop.

Baught 2 ice-creams (the ones with the scoops in bread), feeded them to the dogs, and walked back.

This was the most disgusting thing I could think off and at that moment I wished that the ice-creams would be contaminated with Salmonella and would kill the dogs.

Wether it is true Buddhism or not, it shows the behavior from monks and priests all over the world.

[garro]

The views of 'heavens and hells' in Buddhism as being states of mind is not just my view but a long discussed interpretation throughout the history of Buddhism.

I am not really sure about what you are asking in this thread as you already seemed to have made your mind up about Buddhism. There is no central authority in Buddhism for deciding what is the right and wrong interpretation of his teaching. He left it to his followers to decide what is the correct path and just provided the means to reach the path. This means that I can only provide my interpretation and so can anybody else. Of course, some practitioners are more advanced that others but at the end of the day even the Dali Lama is only providing his perspective.

Debates about Buddhist cosmology can be interesting, but to me not very productive. Trying to discover some ultimate truth which can be condensed into simple remarks on a web forum also seem pointless to me. I am interested in the usefulness of things including religion. Buddhism is useful in my life and helps to make it a much more enjoyable experience. If it is not for you well that is fair enough. I have no interest in trying to convert you. I suggest then that maybe finding something that works for you would be better that disrespecting the path others choose to follow.

[Twiggy44]

A few years ago, I had a discussion in another forum about religion and a member uphold his position that Bouddhism was "a religion" that does not terrorize people with the fear that their soul will be send to hel_l and suffer inhuman pains if they ware doing something bad.

Apart of the fact of Bouddhism being a religion or not, in all my years living in Thailand I came to a whole different conclusion.

Yesterday at school, while talking jokingly with a few mothers, one of them which was single said that she would fancy to marry a fahrang like me. Again jokingly, I answerrred her that that would be very easy. I would go with my wife to the Amphur to get a divorce and the next day I would marry her.

To which she answerred that this was not a good idea because Bouddha would send her to hel_l if she was the cause of my divorce. Something like the commandment in the Christian religion that one shall never wanting their neighbors wife.

In the local Mall, every year several expositions are hold where Bouddhist monks are selling all kind of books (mostly books about predicting the right numbers on the lottery as these books sell like Candy), amulets, CD/DVD's, and many more.

In this expositions, a hall imitiating the life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

In many Bouddhist temples in Thailand, life in hel_l is constructed to show the people how they will suffer after their death.

Thai people are the most superstitious people I ever met.

Building gosthouses, wearing a lot of amulets around their neck, horn blowing at every gosthouse (or the reamins of it). etc...

Seeing all this, I would rather choose for being a Catholic or having no religion at all.

At least, Catholicism never showed me such an attitude about living in the hel_l.

What do you think?

Your true again coalminer,I my self is a chatolic but i am not a good follower but I do respect all religion and people around the globe.And I do believe in good and bad karma,but I can see in this country that the more religious the person the more greedy they are...Sidhartha is a human...

[coalminer]

The views of 'heavens and hells' in Buddhism as being states of mind is not just my view but a long discussed interpretation throughout the history of Buddhism.

That's not what you said in your previous post.

Quote: "In MY view ..."

I am not really sure about what you are asking in this thread as you already seemed to have made your mind up about Buddhism.

Very simple: "Does heaven and hel_l exists in Bouddhsm"

Surely not asking to need to read all the teachings of the Buddha before coming to a conclusion.

There is no central authority in Buddhism for deciding what is the right and wrong interpretation of his teaching. He left it to his followers to decide what is the correct path and just provided the means to reach the path. This means that I can only provide my interpretation and so can anybody else. Of course, some practitioners are more advanced that others but at the end of the day even the Dali Lama is only providing his perspective.

Fair enough.

A simple "yes or no" answer should then not be difficult.

Even if this "yes or no" would be your personal opinion.

Debates about Buddhist cosmology can be interesting, but to me not very productive. Trying to discover some ultimate truth which can be condensed into simple remarks on a web forum also seem pointless to me.

So, according to you, one can only have an answer to this question AFTER reading and studying for many centuries the teachings of Buddha.

Thanks, but I will pass that.

I am interested in the usefulness of things including religion. Buddhism is useful in my life and helps to make it a much more enjoyable experience. If it is not for you well that is fair enough. I have no interest in trying to convert you. I suggest then that maybe finding something that works for you would be better that disrespecting the path others choose to follow.

I have found it already.

Long ago.

No need for me to convert or studying another "man made" religion.

I surely don't try to show disrespect of, or to mock others beliefs.

But I don't show any respect to a monk or a priest who preach a simple life without wealth as the ultimate form of being enlighted (be it in Catholicism or Bouddhism or whatever) and on the other hand is having and displaying more wealth that most of us will ever have.

Have a nice day.

[coalminer]

Your true again coalminer,I my self is a chatolic but i am not a good follower but I do respect all religion and people around the globe.And I do believe in good and bad karma,but I can see in this country that the more religious the person the more greedy they are...Sidhartha is a human...

Thanks for your answer Twiggy.

Yes, you hit the hammer on the nail.

Whilst in all relgions, all over the world some ministers are preaching how we can be good followers or reach the ultimate happiness by getting rid of all our possessions, they are personally the greediest people in the world and their hunger for more wealth is unsatisfied.

[garro]

Coalminer, I am not sure if you are aware of the inconsistencies in your posts. First you discount my view about the Buddhist idea of 'heaven and hel_l' as just personal opinion and then in the same post you say that you want my personal opinion.

You have already mentioned that you do not wish to learn about Buddhism and that you found the answers long ago. So why are you wasting your time on a Buddhist part of the forum? This seems odd behaviour for someone who thinks he has the answers. Are you here to convert to your way of thinking? Do you find it unreasonable that people should view the world different than you? Are you here to genuinely seek answers or are you here to provide a lecture?

Your knowledge of Buddhism is far to limited and your own personal bigotries seem far too entrenched for any meaningful discussion.

[coalminer]

Coalminer, I am not sure if you are aware of the inconsistencies in your posts. First you discount my view about the Buddhist idea of 'heaven and hel_l' as just personal opinion and then in the same post you say that you want my personal opinion.

Wrong and distorted reading of the replies.

I said and proved that you gave your personal opinion in your first reply instead of being the views of the Buddha teachings in your second reply.

You personal opinion was greatly appreciated as I mentioned in my reply to you and by no means "discounted".

You have already mentioned that you do not wish to learn about Buddhism and that you found the answers long ago.

Wrong and distorted reading of the replies.

I wrote that I found the answers to following all religions long ago.

Not specificly to Buddhism.

But I surely have no wish to learn EVERYTHING about Buddhism in order to get an answer to a simple question.

So why are you wasting your time on a Buddhist part of the forum? This seems odd behaviour for someone who thinks he has the answers.

Wrong and distorted reading of the replies.

I never claimed to have the answers to my question.

If I had, I would not ask the question in the first place.

As a free person who wants to have a broader knowledge about the existence of heaven and hel_l in Bouddhism, I asked this question in a Bouddhist forum.

What's wrong about that?

Unless answering the question would imply that I need to read ALL the teachings of Buddha and get converted to Buddhism...

Are you here to convert to your way of thinking?

After reading your replies, I have the feeling that you are requiring everybody who doesn't understand something about Buddhism to convert first to Buddhism.

Do you find it unreasonable that people should view the world different than you? Are you here to genuinely seek answers or are you here to provide a lecture?

I'm here to find an answer to my question about heaven and hel_l in Buddhism.

And as far as I could make out of the replies, heaven and hel_l in Buddhism is part of suffering/happyness in this life and not after our death as described in other religions.

Surely not to give a lecture to people who ask a simple question of "having a far to limited knowledge about Buddhism" and trying to convert them like you are doing.

Your knowledge of Buddhism is far to limited and your own personal bigotries seem far too entrenched for any meaningful discussion.

Admitted for the first part of the answer.

I feel no need either to convert to Buddhism in order to get an useful answer to my simple question.

About the second part of your answer, there exists a good way to avoid being unhappy with this discussion.

Simply skip it and leave the place to others who are more open and are capable of holding a meaningful discussion about religion.

I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the teaching of Buddha you will find a similar answer.

Have a nice day ....

[sabaijai]

This bickering is going nowhere, and garro is right, the OP appears to use the guise of a question as a goad. Several responses have been given, and the two threads I cited will offer many more.

The so-called heaven and he// realms (English translations of terms that have entirely different connotations in Buddhism than in theistic religions), if 'real', will be, like all conditioned phenomena, temporary and conditioned. As a line in Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, reads, 'An organised man can be comfortable even in he//.' In other words, with sati and panna progress can be made in heaven, hel_l or any other conditioned existence.

[coalminer]

This bickering is going nowhere, and garro is right, the OP appears to use the guise of a question as a goad. Several responses have been given, and the two threads I cited will offer many more.

Whether heaven and hel_l exists in Bouddhism has been answered by several posters.

Thanks for that.

Resuming (replies are truncated for clarity):

Surirse07: "Desire is suffering (hel_l), nibbana is heaven."

Clausewitz: "Buddha warned of the hells so that people would avoid doing deeds leading to hel_l."

IMA_FARANG: "no...it isn't important"

BrucenKhamen: The best and most complete answer to my OP.

Tim207: "Thai belief system answer, then yes. Thai people often believe in hel_l although I am not sure about heaven."

Garro: "it is my view that heaven and hel_l in Buddhism refer to states of mind."

As I understood the answers, heaven and hel_l is something we experience in this life and not after death as opposed to other religions. But they exists in the Thai belief system, and as many religions, Buddhism has been adapted to suit some people.

The depicting of the state of being in heaven and hel_l in many forms (painting, statue, etc..) is only a human view on the suffering someone goes trough when he/she is in hel_l, but it has nothing to do with the reality according to the replies in this thread.

Tim207" "Thai's may call their beliefs Buddhism, and Buddha is their central figure, but it has little in common with the teachings of Buddha. As a matter of fact, much of it is in direct conflict with the teachings of Buddha."

Stating that the OP use the guise of a question as goad is plain BS.

The 2 threads you cited gave no answer to my question, as my question was not only a query about the (non) existence of heaven and hel_l, but was also relating the existence of these places to the amulet industry and the various Buddhist temples in Thailand.

A question that was fully answered by Brucenkhamen and as such prove that my question was clear to most readers.

Garro's reply (partly) was that I "had a far to limited knowledge about Buddhism".

An answer that was not called for and was not needed if he would have understood my question like Brucenkhamen did.

I don't wish to be converted to ANY man-made religion and answering a question can be very simple as has been proved by Brucenkhamen.

[rockyysdt]

I don't wish to be converted to ANY man-made religion and answering a question can be very simple as has been proved by Brucenkhamen.

Hi Coalminer.

Many don't believe Buddhism to be a religion but a system/technique and way of life which assists you to be more self aware and to eliminate suffering.

The Buddha also explained that he didn't want anyone to accept blindly his teachings, but to gain first hand experience.

In Buddhism there is no hel_l or heaven, no promise of an after life, no God, and when you die your body, memories, and feelings expire.

This is largely why it is not considered a religion, and perhaps why you should view it separately from your view of religions.

Buddhism, as practiced by many Thai nationals has been fashioned into a so called religion but strays from Buddhist principals.

You mention you don't want to be converted to any man made religion.

Out of interest are there any non man made religions?

Edited November 10, 2008 by rockyysdt

[coalminer]

Many don't believe Buddhism to be a religion but a system/technique and way of life which assists you to be more self aware and to eliminate suffering.

Yes, I know that already.

But if Buddhism is not a religion and Buddha is not a God, how do you explain that Buddhist monks are blessing people by wheeping them with a wet broom and delivering them from their sins?

Or Buddhist monks performing all kind of rituals which are an exact copy of the Catholic rituals?

Are all these actions only attributed to the Thai Buddhists and their "own" kind of Buddhism?

The Buddha also explained that he didn't want anyone to accept blindly his teachings, but to gain first hand experience.

I knew that too, but I was confused by Thai "Buddhism" and their belief/worshipping/embracing objects that don't fit into the Buddhist religion.

Monks with supernatural powers deflecting bullets, monks who ties a rope on the head of several monks and become another "man in space", the diverse expositions about heaven and hel_l at the Mall, people wearing a lot of amulets which have superpowers, etc...

In Buddhism there is no hel_l or heaven, no promise of an after life, no God, and when you die your body, memories, and feelings expire.

The first part of your reply was already explained by other posters.

But for the second part, this is totally new to me.

Every Thai believes that they are reborn from a previous life and they will be reborn after their death.

If they have been a good person in this life, they will come back as a better person.

If not, they will come back as a dog, a cat, or another creature according to their sins in their previous life.

Many Thais I know, will not feed or harbor a dog, a cat, or another animal as they were "bad persons" in a previous life".

Not on topic in this thread, but can you elaborate a little bit on this?

This is largely why it is not considered a religion, and perhaps why you should view it separately from your view of religions.

Buddhism, as practiced by many Thai nationals has been fashioned into a so called religion but strays from Buddhist principals.

This is the main "red line" that has been repeated many times in this thread.

Thus, according to you and many others, the Buddhism as applied by many Thai nationals has nothing to do with the Buddhist principals?

That would explain the many superstitious beliefs of the Thais.

But which is the REAL Buddhism then?

Theravada Buddhism as followed by the Thai nationals is not the real Buddhism.

You mention you don't want to be converted to any man made religion.

Out of interest are there any non man made religions?

Every religion I know is man-made in the sense that we only know the bits-and-pieces that are presented to us by the leaders of every religion (including Buddhism).

[clausewitz]

Certainly traditional Theravada teachings in the Pali cannon are filled with desciptions of hells. In fact disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l.

http://www.vipassana.info/130-devaduta-e.htm

Then the warders of hel_l give him the fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hel_l conduct him and hammer himOn account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hel_l take him upside down and cut him with a knifeOn account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hel_l yoke him to a cart and make him go to and fro on a ground that is flaming and ablaze On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hel_l make him ascend and descend a rock of burning ambers On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hel_l throw him upside down into a boiling, blazingpot of molten. Therehe is cooked in the molten scum, and he on his own accord dives in comes up and goes across in the molten pot.On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes.Next the warders of hel_l throw him to the Great hel_l. The square Great hel_l has four gates and is divided in two, Enclosed by iron walls, is closed with an iron lid. The floor spreads for seven hundred miles, And it stands there everyday.

A fire springs from the eastern wall of the Great hel_l to scorch the western wall. A fire springs from the western wall to scorch the eastern wallA fire springs from the northern wall to scorch the southern wall. A fire springs from the southern wall to scorch the northern wall. A fire springs from the bottom to scorch the top and a fire springs from the top to scorch the bottom. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long time, it happens that the eastern door of the Great hel_l opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, andeven the bones smoke,even if he pulls himself out, it happens. When he had, had enough of it the door closesThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an end.

Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it.’

[sabaijai]

Coalminer, there is no single, simple answer to your question. Visions of he// relate only to Buddhist custom/perception, and Buddhist custom/perception varies widely according to community and individual. As I tried to point out, ultimately your question is not relevant to Buddhist practice since the solution to suffering in any and all realms is the same.

[coalminer]

Certainly traditional Theravada teachings in the Pali cannon are filled with desciptions of hells. In fact disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l.

http://www.vipassana.info/130-devaduta-e.htm

Wait a minute clausewitz.

Are you pretending now that hel_l exists in Theravada Buddhism?

The figures in the Mall and the temples are displaying the situations as described in the the Theravada teachings?

Is this "hel_l" happening in actual life or after death?

Now I start to be confused ...

[coalminer]

Coalminer, there is no single, simple answer to your question. Visions of he// relate only to Buddhist custom/perception, and Buddhist custom/perception varies widely according to community and individual. As I tried to point out, ultimately your question is not relevant to Buddhist practice since the solution to suffering in any and all realms is the same.

The existence of hel_l may be not relevant to Buddhist practice, sabaijai.

But I don't intend to practice Buddhism (or any religion) as I tried to point out many times.

I only seek answer to questions without needing to be a practioner of that religion.

The reply from clausewitz that hel_l "is indeed described in the Pali writings and disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l" puts a whole new light on my question.

That there is no single, simple answer to my question is an acceptable view.

And after reading the replies in this thread, it seems that Buddhism has been tailored by the different communities and individualls to suit their needs.

Of course, this leads to the question if there is a pure form of Buddhism left.