Do I Expose Her Or Let Sleeping Dogs Lie (hiv)

[SpudIslander]

I met a thai girl (a working girl) in 2007, fell in love, married her (Buddist wedding not registered) and had unprotected sex for a year and a half. On September 2, 2008 she had a headache and sore throat so we went to the hospital (Bangkok) to check it out. The doctor reviewed her file and noted that the last visit (2 years ago) she tested hiv positive and asked if she had told me (in thai). She told her that no but perhaps I should tell him now. I was shocked and immediately had a hiv test but negative. I was still prepared to accept this as a mixed relationship with some changes to our sex life.

However since that time, we have broken up and she is going back to work. This poses a health risk and I am aware of it. She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

I am new at posting, hopefully this works

[stevenjm]

I was in similar situation not so long ago. My advice - thank your lucky stars as i do that you escaped, mind your own business and walk away while reminding yourself this is south east asia and you cant change anything.

[SpudIslander]

I was in similar situation not so long ago. My advice - thank your lucky stars as i do that you escaped, mind your own business and walk away while reminding yourself this is south east asia and you cant change anything.

Thanks for your feedback

[SpudIslander]

any other comments out there?

[taxexile]

She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

she obviously has little regard for the health of others , least of all you.

you should also consider the family incomes of all those that she might go on to infect.

in the uk and probably in the rest of europe as well it is a criminal offence for an hiv+ person to deliberately put someone else at risk by having unprotected sex or not informing a partner of their hiv+ status.

morally i think it is your duty to expose her , but i dont know how you would go about doing it in order that she could be prevented from working in her chosen field either here or abroad.

[SpudIslander]

She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

she obviously has little regard for the health of others , least of all you.

you should also consider the family incomes of all those that she might go on to infect.

in the uk and probably in the rest of europe as well it is a criminal offence for an hiv+ person to deliberately put someone else at risk by having unprotected sex or not informing a partner of their hiv+ status.

morally i think it is your duty to expose her , but i dont know how you would go about doing it in order that she could be prevented from working in her chosen field either here or abroad.

Well, for starters, an email with name, photos to european embassies. In addition, I also have access to her client database (email addresses) Australian, UK, Romania, Hong Kong and the USA

[jdinasia]

Hope you don't live in Thailand then .... as I am willing to bet that your actions would be easily punishable by the courts if you choose to harass the woman.

[mommysboy]

The 'perspective' here is that you did not acquire HIV here despite repeated exposure. It's a situation that crops up time and time again, and I speak from personal experience. This does however go against conventional medical wisdom and I am not being prescriptive either, I simply don't know.

But my own experience tips the argument for me and I agree with a previous poster who says move on, maybe I've been out here too long!!

[Murgatroyd]

I notice that you are a very new poster, with only two posts before this thread... It is possible that you may get a mixed response from some cynical individuals... It is a fact that some men have fallen out with their ex bar girl girlfriends or wives here in thailand and decided to get revenge on them by telling everyone that they can that the girl in question is HIV positive. Very often such embittered individuals join as many forum boards as they can to spread their revenge far and wide... I'm just an ordinary member here, but I'm a moderator on another Thai forum board and we have encountered this situation several times.

[SpudIslander]

As you can see, there are conflicting answers. On one hand I feel for her and the negative impact this would cause her and her family. Maybe if I had contracted hiv, I would be bitter and feel stronger about it. But how is the spreading of hiv supposed to stop. She feels that if a guy gave it to her during the years of her work then that is just the risk of the game (for all players).

[SpudIslander]

I notice that you are a very new poster, with only two posts before this thread... It is possible that you may get a mixed response from some cynical individuals... It is a fact that some men have fallen out with their ex bar girl girlfriends or wives here in thailand and decided to get revenge on them by telling everyone that they can that the girl in question is HIV positive. Very often such embittered individuals join as many forum boards as they can to spread their revenge far and wide... I'm just an ordinary member here, but I'm a moderator on another Thai forum board and we have encountered this situation several times.

Yes, this is true, I am a new member and if this subject is not appropiate then I will refrain from carrying on any further. I terms of the jilted ex, I can ensure you that this is not the case. I am just a guy looking to do the right thing.

[Jingthing]

I have a hard core feeling about this coming from watching almost everyone I knew die like flies in the 80's. It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection. You can't ever really trust what a person tells you about their status. They have a clear test now? How do you know it will be clear tomorrow? One lady with HIV, a drop in the bucket. I would do nothing except maybe make a donation to HIV prevention programs. The more disturbing thing are reports I have heard about HIV people deliberately infecting other people for revenge against society. I hope this isn't very common.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[mommysboy]

As you can see, there are conflicting answers. On one hand I feel for her and the negative impact this would cause her and her family. Maybe if I had contracted hiv, I would be bitter and feel stronger about it. But how is the spreading of hiv supposed to stop. She feels that if a guy gave it to her during the years of her work then that is just the risk of the game (for all players).

In a way she's right, isn't she?

It's an awful dilemma I agree, but thankfully not yours.

[mommysboy]

I have a hard core feeling about this coming from watching almost everyone I knew die like flies in the 80's. It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection. You can't ever really trust what a person tells you about their status. They have a clear test now? How do you know it will be clear tomorrow? One lady with HIV, a drop in the bucket. I would do nothing except maybe make a donation to HIV prevention programs. The more disturbing thing are reports I have heard about HIV people deliberately infecting other people for revenge against society. I hope this isn't very common.

Jingthing you are an experienced poster, please come on surely this is an exaggeration, the exception being a resident in a San Francisco bath house.

[SpudIslander]

I remember the 80's as well. I worked in a company where more than half the employees were gay. The world has lost alot of good people to this virus. Many of them were good friends. I am not gay and I remember in those gays that it appeared to be a gay problem. You do make sense to me that responsibilty does rest on the shoulders of the individual.

[Jingthing]

I have a hard core feeling about this coming from watching almost everyone I knew die like flies in the 80's. It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection. You can't ever really trust what a person tells you about their status. They have a clear test now? How do you know it will be clear tomorrow? One lady with HIV, a drop in the bucket. I would do nothing except maybe make a donation to HIV prevention programs. The more disturbing thing are reports I have heard about HIV people deliberately infecting other people for revenge against society. I hope this isn't very common.

Jingthing you are an experienced poster, please come on surely this is an exaggeration, the exception being a resident in a San Francisco bath house.

Yes, this was San Francisco. There were NO drugs then. No treatments. A huge percentage also killed themselves soon after getting the diagnosis. Guys mostly in their 20s and 30s. It was common to see young people visibly age 30 years in a few months.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[mommysboy]

I remember the 80's as well. I worked in a company where more than half the employees were gay. The world has lost alot of good people to this virus. Many of them were good friends. I am not gay and I remember in those gays that it appeared to be a gay problem. You do make sense to me that responsibilty does rest on the shoulders of the individual.

Oh, Oh, that's torn it !let's get oiff the gay theme.

Do you think she is even aware of the implications of HIV? I mean it's a big thing to come to terms with for anyone. Shouldn't both of you be concerned with her personal heath, viral load, etc.

I think an otherwise healthy person, with a suppressed viral level is very unlikely to spread the disease, especially when precautions are used. My advice, don't tackle this head on, it won't work anyway.

[mommysboy]

I have a hard core feeling about this coming from watching almost everyone I knew die like flies in the 80's. It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection. You can't ever really trust what a person tells you about their status. They have a clear test now? How do you know it will be clear tomorrow? One lady with HIV, a drop in the bucket. I would do nothing except maybe make a donation to HIV prevention programs. The more disturbing thing are reports I have heard about HIV people deliberately infecting other people for revenge against society. I hope this isn't very common.

Jingthing you are an experienced poster, please come on surely this is an exaggeration, the exception being a resident in a San Francisco bath house.

Yes, this was San Francisco. There were NO drugs then. No treatments. A huge percentage also killed themselves soon after getting the diagnosis. Guys mostly in their 20s and 30s. It was common to see young people visibly age 30 years in a few months.

Ah ok, I understand. Sorry. Yes a very tragic outbreak. God only knows why it happened so grotesquely and powerfully here - terrible.

[Jingthing]

Ah ok, I understand. Sorry. Yes a very tragic outbreak. God only knows why it happened so grotesquely and powerfully here - terrible.

I am not God, but I know. Everyone was having sex with everyone, often on the same night at the same place, and nobody even knew what a condom was back then. We also did not know about the virus and how it was passed. It was really a kind of historic era there, extreme pleasure followed by extreme death (there are a number of books on the subject).

Edited November 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[SpudIslander]

I would like to thank everyone who has replied to my issue, especially mommysboy and jingthing. I like jingthing's quote " It is every person's personal responsibility to protect yourself from HIV infection." This was my mistake and thank God I am not paying for it. My ex is paying for her mistakes and my heart reaches out to her. It is a great burden to carry. I have learned my lesson and if anyone else reads this thread please take heed.

[Bizz]

I met a thai girl (a working girl) in 2007, fell in love, married her (Buddist wedding not registered) and had unprotected sex for a year and a half. On September 2, 2008 she had a headache and sore throat so we went to the hospital (Bangkok) to check it out. The doctor reviewed her file and noted that the last visit (2 years ago) she tested hiv positive and asked if she had told me (in thai). She told her that no but perhaps I should tell him now. I was shocked and immediately had a hiv test but negative. I was still prepared to accept this as a mixed relationship with some changes to our sex life.

However since that time, we have broken up and she is going back to work. This poses a health risk and I am aware of it. She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

I am new at posting, hopefully this works

I was in similar situation not so long ago. My advice - thank your lucky stars as i do that you escaped, mind your own business and walk away while reminding yourself this is south east asia and you cant change anything.

Ah ok, I understand. Sorry. Yes a very tragic outbreak. God only knows why it happened so grotesquely and powerfully here - terrible.

I am not God, but I know. Everyone was having sex with everyone, often on the same night at the same place, and nobody even knew what a condom was back then. We also did not know about the virus and how it was passed. It was really a kind of historic era there, extreme pleasure followed by extreme death (there are a number of books on the subject).

Jingthing I empathize with you and your tragic memories. I to lived in San fran in the early eighties.

For me I lost a loved one and also consider myself a very very lucky man.

This is a moral decision that requires much taught and consideration.

Lover did not tell fatally infected woman he was HIV positive, court hears

Provided by: The Canadian Press

Written by: Colin Perkel, THE CANADIAN PRESS

Oct. 31, 2008

HAMILTON - The throaty laugh of a woman who died of AIDS-related cancer filled a courtroom Friday when audiotape evidence was played at the first-degree murder trial of the man accused of fatally infecting her.

In her statement to police, the Toronto woman insisted she did not know her former lover was HIV positive and was adamant she would not have had sex with him had she known.

"Absolutely not," she told police.

Johnson Aziga, 52, of Hamilton, is on trial for first-degree murder in the deaths of the woman and another of his ex-lovers.

Even though he had known since late 1996 that he carried the virus that leads to AIDS, police allege he did not tell the women - or several others with whom he had unprotected sex - about his status.

In her statement, the woman described beginning a sexual relationship with Aziga, whom she met at her job with the government of Ontario, where they both worked, in the fall of 2001.

"He seemed a very nice, considerate person. And then we had sex," she told the officer in a clear, confident voice, punctuated at times with throaty laughter.

"There was no discussion whatsoever about HIV at all, and it was unprotected sex. I didn't really think of it."

Court previously heard that Aziga had several counselling sessions in the 1990s with public health officials about HIV, the risks of unprotected sex, and treatment options.

He was also twice formally ordered to inform any partners about his status.

The woman had tested negative for HIV twice before in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and had only one other partner besides Aziga since then who was also negative.

About a month after her relationship with Aziga began, she fell ill. She had never felt so sick before, she said.

Court has previously heard that the acute phase of HIV infection can make someone seriously ill, but the symptoms usually disappear within a few weeks.

The two continued seeing each other until June 2002, when the relationship soured - ostensibly because he was having a nasty custody battle with his ex-wife.

"He said he actually was not very fond of women right at that point in time."

She and Aziga did have one last, "unpleasant" sexual encounter in October 2002 that left her bleeding, court heard.

Ironically, she tried to reassure him that she posed no health risk.

"I'm bleeding but I'm OK," the woman said she told him. "I've been tested."

The woman was soon diagnosed as HIV positive.

Over a beer a few months later, she told Aziga about her status. He did not seem particularly surprised, she said.

"He just sort of went, 'Oh man.' He didn't say, 'Oh my God, like when?' or 'I have to get tested,"' she said.

It was only in May 2003, after calls from public health officials, that she concluded Johnson infected her, she said.

She then called to ask him directly whether he was HIV positive, at which point he admitted he was, court heard.

The rest of the call comprised a discussion about HIV infection, and her offering him advice on support groups, and advising him on medications to control the illness.

"I said, 'I know personally people who have been HIV positive for like 17 years," she said.

"He said, 'Oh really? Wow."'

"It's not the same as the '80s," the woman is heard explaining to the detective who made the recording in August 2003.

"You're not going to be dead in three years."

She died in April 2004, two days after she gave a sworn videotaped statement to police in which she could only nod that her previous statement was true.

[SpudIslander]

I met a thai girl (a working girl) in 2007, fell in love, married her (Buddist wedding not registered) and had unprotected sex for a year and a half. On September 2, 2008 she had a headache and sore throat so we went to the hospital (Bangkok) to check it out. The doctor reviewed her file and noted that the last visit (2 years ago) she tested hiv positive and asked if she had told me (in thai). She told her that no but perhaps I should tell him now. I was shocked and immediately had a hiv test but negative. I was still prepared to accept this as a mixed relationship with some changes to our sex life.

However since that time, we have broken up and she is going back to work. This poses a health risk and I am aware of it. She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

I am new at posting, hopefully this works

I was in similar situation not so long ago. My advice - thank your lucky stars as i do that you escaped, mind your own business and walk away while reminding yourself this is south east asia and you cant change anything.

Ah ok, I understand. Sorry. Yes a very tragic outbreak. God only knows why it happened so grotesquely and powerfully here - terrible.

I am not God, but I know. Everyone was having sex with everyone, often on the same night at the same place, and nobody even knew what a condom was back then. We also did not know about the virus and how it was passed. It was really a kind of historic era there, extreme pleasure followed by extreme death (there are a number of books on the subject).

Jingthing I empathize with you and your tragic memories. I to lived in San fran in the early eighties.

For me I lost a loved one and also consider myself a very very lucky man.

This is a moral decision that requires much taught and consideration.

Lover did not tell fatally infected woman he was HIV positive, court hears

Provided by: The Canadian Press

Written by: Colin Perkel, THE CANADIAN PRESS

Oct. 31, 2008

HAMILTON - The throaty laugh of a woman who died of AIDS-related cancer filled a courtroom Friday when audiotape evidence was played at the first-degree murder trial of the man accused of fatally infecting her.

In her statement to police, the Toronto woman insisted she did not know her former lover was HIV positive and was adamant she would not have had sex with him had she known.

"Absolutely not," she told police.

Johnson Aziga, 52, of Hamilton, is on trial for first-degree murder in the deaths of the woman and another of his ex-lovers.

Even though he had known since late 1996 that he carried the virus that leads to AIDS, police allege he did not tell the women - or several others with whom he had unprotected sex - about his status.

In her statement, the woman described beginning a sexual relationship with Aziga, whom she met at her job with the government of Ontario, where they both worked, in the fall of 2001.

"He seemed a very nice, considerate person. And then we had sex," she told the officer in a clear, confident voice, punctuated at times with throaty laughter.

"There was no discussion whatsoever about HIV at all, and it was unprotected sex. I didn't really think of it."

Court previously heard that Aziga had several counselling sessions in the 1990s with public health officials about HIV, the risks of unprotected sex, and treatment options.

He was also twice formally ordered to inform any partners about his status.

The woman had tested negative for HIV twice before in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and had only one other partner besides Aziga since then who was also negative.

About a month after her relationship with Aziga began, she fell ill. She had never felt so sick before, she said.

Court has previously heard that the acute phase of HIV infection can make someone seriously ill, but the symptoms usually disappear within a few weeks.

The two continued seeing each other until June 2002, when the relationship soured - ostensibly because he was having a nasty custody battle with his ex-wife.

"He said he actually was not very fond of women right at that point in time."

She and Aziga did have one last, "unpleasant" sexual encounter in October 2002 that left her bleeding, court heard.

Ironically, she tried to reassure him that she posed no health risk.

"I'm bleeding but I'm OK," the woman said she told him. "I've been tested."

The woman was soon diagnosed as HIV positive.

Over a beer a few months later, she told Aziga about her status. He did not seem particularly surprised, she said.

"He just sort of went, 'Oh man.' He didn't say, 'Oh my God, like when?' or 'I have to get tested,"' she said.

It was only in May 2003, after calls from public health officials, that she concluded Johnson infected her, she said.

She then called to ask him directly whether he was HIV positive, at which point he admitted he was, court heard.

The rest of the call comprised a discussion about HIV infection, and her offering him advice on support groups, and advising him on medications to control the illness.

"I said, 'I know personally people who have been HIV positive for like 17 years," she said.

"He said, 'Oh really? Wow."'

"It's not the same as the '80s," the woman is heard explaining to the detective who made the recording in August 2003.

"You're not going to be dead in three years."

She died in April 2004, two days after she gave a sworn videotaped statement to police in which she could only nod that her previous statement was true.

Hi Bizz,

I am aware of this case. I am in Toronto now. There is a growing number of countries taking similar positions regarding disclosure. but Thailand is not one of them. It is growing in Europe though.

[0Mix1up]

i think you should contact

the aids services in thailand and your home country and ask them

about yours and her responsibility and legal implications.

they have the expertise that few here could match

[taxexile]

I also have access to her client database (email addresses) Australian, UK, Romania, Hong Kong and the USA

then perhaps you should advise all those people that in view of the girls hiv+ status , they might want to get tested , both for their own piece of mind and for the piece of mind of all those that are having contact with them.

as I am willing to bet that your actions would be easily punishable by the courts if you choose to harass the woman.

nonsense , how can warning her clients that they are at risk of contracting a possibly fatal disease be considered harassment ?

if anything it would be considered as an act of goodness to those clients.

this womans selfishness in her willingness to risk infecting others by not insisting on safe sex outweighs all aspects of sympathy for her condition or considerations for her income. she is a danger to all those who come into intimate contact with her and needs locking up.

[geriatrickid]

Interesting ethics question. By coincidence it was a topic in a continuing ed packet I recently received.

Use common sense; unless someone's life is endangered, then you have no right to say anything. If you must speak out, then your concerns must be relayed to the office of the Chief Medical Officer in the district in Thailand where you reside and no one else. The CMO will handle the file in accordance with the medical and ethical protocols in place. Outside of advising a designated public health officer of your concerns, if this person suffers personal injury, you will be liable, even if what you say is true.

And now for info from UNAIDS

Advocating against overly-broad application of criminal law to HIV transmission 14 November 2008

In recent years, there has been an apparent increase in the number of people prosecuted for transmitting HIV, particularly in Europe and North America, with cases now numbering in the hundreds in the English-speaking world alone. There is also an increase in laws that criminalize HIV transmission and exposure to the virus, as reported in sub-Saharan Africa, Asia, and Latin America and the Caribbean.

Intentional transmission of HIV

The policy brief makes specific recommendations for governments, civil society and international partners, urging that criminalization be limited to cases of intentional transmission of HIV. While UNAIDS and UNDP acknowledge that use of the criminal law may be justified in these limited circumstances – i.e. where a person knows his or her HIV positive status, acts with the intention to transmit HIV, and does in fact transmit it – they are concerned that going beyond such cases risks applying criminal sanctions to people who are not actually blameworthy, further stigmatizes people living with HIV, and creates disincentives for mutual responsibility for sexual health and to finding out one's HIV.

No evidence that the use of criminal law reduces transmission of HIV

The main reasons advanced for applying criminal law are either punishment for someone who has caused harm or to deter risky behaviours that lead to HIV transmission.

However, there is no evidence that the use of criminal law is an effective measure for reducing transmission of HIV, and experts are concerned that criminalization is likely to have a negative impact on the overall response to HIV, including HIV prevention.

The article and references are more detailed, but I think this is the gist of it. For personal safety and to avoid civil penalties refer it to the CMO if you feel obliged to speak out.

[Mosha]

A few years ago my wife asked if I wanted to go see something. When I asked what, she just said come and see. So off we went. The something turned out to be a woman dieing of aids. The story was her husband was working in Patong, he got infected, and on his infrequent visits home infected his wife. He eventually died. So she decided to go work in Patong, in the bars. My wife commented that she would be dead by next month. to which I said she will be dead before the w/end. She lasted 2 more days, I have seen more fat on a chip. One of the most disturbing things I have seen. When Sopha asked me what I thought about it all. I replied my only thought is how many people has she killed. The OP was lucky, but anyone who screws that woman is playing Russian roulette.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Mosha

[mijan24]

She is also planning a trip to Europe because the money is better over there. Should I just let it go as not my problem or should I expose her. I am weighing the health risk of others vs their family income (she is the breadwinner of the family mother, father, brother (who is jail but getting out in the new year) 12 year old daughter. any comments?

she obviously has little regard for the health of others , least of all you.

you should also consider the family incomes of all those that she might go on to infect.

in the uk and probably in the rest of europe as well it is a criminal offence for an hiv+ person to deliberately put someone else at risk by having unprotected sex or not informing a partner of their hiv+ status.

morally i think it is your duty to expose her , but i dont know how you would go about doing it in order that she could be prevented from working in her chosen field either here or abroad.

Hard to judge when you are not aware of the "whole of life story"

Morals Once again hard to pass judgement as MORALS are often looked at in a different light by different people!!

[OlRedEyes]

This world has become, and is becoming an even more, crappy place for us and our children because of the 'I'm OK Jack, so I'll do nothing for the society around me' attitude that prevails.

Whether doing anything to 'expose' her, if there is much you can do, will make much difference is unlikely. Question is, do you care what happens to others? Most don't. You won't make a big dent in the selfishness of this world, but if everyone gives up totally and just takes care of their own butts, we and our children will live in hel_l.

[kingwillly]

Hope you don't live in Thailand then .... as I am willing to bet that your actions would be easily punishable by the courts if you choose to harass the woman.

moral dilemma, medical privacy against possible criminal harm...

[taxexile]

Morals Once again hard to pass judgement as MORALS are often looked at in a different light by different people!!

moral dilemma, medical privacy against possible criminal harm...

i see no moral dilemma here. we have an hiv+ woman who is considering prostitution either here or abroad and given her history of having unprotected sex and non disclosure of her hiv+ status to her partners i find it appalling that people can just say "its not my business". would you do the same if you knew someone was armed with a gun and intended going out on a shooting spree to the local mall or school.

even by the exceedingly low moral standards that seem to prevail today , there is just no case to answer for standing by and letting this happen. anything that can be done to prevent the transmission of this awful virus should be done.

at the very least , this woman needs a good talking to , ......... sorry , that should read "a programme of sensitive counselling" , as to the consequences of her intended actions.

but if everyone gives up totally and just takes care of their own butts, we and our children will live in hel_l.

exactly.