Thai Language

[ZOVOX]

I am a cantonese chinese speaker, but do not understand another dialect of chinese, although there are many similarities. I am also a native english speaker and, although at times i have difficulty understanding some regional accents, i can have a conversation with someone with a regional u.k accent. I was wondering how may dialects of thai there are, and whether the differences are just accent changes, or are they more like different languages, as with many chinese dialects ?

[Firefoxx]

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen it's usually a mix of both. The dialect is usually recognizable as Thai, since there are many accented Thai words, but there are also many words that are unique to the dialect. You can probably understand the different dialects to a degree, but not completely.

[gburns57au]

I am a cantonese chinese speaker, but do not understand another dialect of chinese, although there are many similarities. I am also a native english speaker and, although at times i have difficulty understanding some regional accents, i can have a conversation with someone with a regional u.k accent. I was wondering how may dialects of thai there are, and whether the differences are just accent changes, or are they more like different languages, as with many chinese dialects ?

There are regional dialects sometimes using different words, but the basics are the same.

I am not talking about the Khmer or Lao differences as they are different languages totally.

I asked 3 girls from different areas how to say the word for "wife" and got 3 different versions of the same word.......Pallaya, Phanraya and Pallraya

[meadish_sweetball]

I am a cantonese chinese speaker, but do not understand another dialect of chinese, although there are many similarities. I am also a native english speaker and, although at times i have difficulty understanding some regional accents, i can have a conversation with someone with a regional u.k accent. I was wondering how may dialects of thai there are, and whether the differences are just accent changes, or are they more like different languages, as with many chinese dialects ?

There are regional dialects sometimes using different words, but the basics are the same.

I am not talking about the Khmer or Lao differences as they are different languages totally.

I asked 3 girls from different areas how to say the word for "wife" and got 3 different versions of the same word.......Pallaya, Phanraya and Pallraya

Yes, the basics are the same.

Thai and Lao both belong to the greater Tai group of languages so to say that Lao is completely different from Thai is not entirely true. Most people from Bangkok and the Central plains find it easier to understand Lao dialects than rural Southern Thai, which is within the borders of the same country.

Since about 100 years back, the dialects seem to grow increasingly closer since the country is more interconnected and the number of travelling people has increased greatly.

Central Thai is the language used in education all over Thailand, the language the script is based on, and also the TV language. It is used to bridge the dialect gaps when speakers from different parts meet with each other. You still find that old people from the countryside in the respective parts speak heavier dialect than younger people. I think pure spoken-language understanding between say a Narathiwat 70-year-old from the countryside and a 60-year-old Mukdahan or Naan native would be rather difficult.

Dialectal differences include many aspects of the language, the more obvious ones are differing tone numbers and pitch curves (5 tones in Central Thai, 4 tones in the Khorat dialect, 6 in Northern Thai etc. etc.), specific vocabulary - "phii" ("older sibling", used as a pronoun) in Central Thai is "aay" (when referring to males) in Lao, Isarn and Northern Thai and "pii" (unaspirated, "b"-like sound) for females.

Some dialect words are very much all-purpose: "teua" in Northern Thai for example, which depending on context can mean the same thing as Central Thai "laeow", "iik laeow" and even "loei".

The "ng" sound in CT "tham ngaan" (work) becomes a "h" sound in some Southern dialects - "tham haan".

There are lots and lots of little things like this. You will find that learning Central Thai helps you understand *some* of the other dialects, but a lot of it will be totally incomprehensible unless somebody decodes it for you.

[Richard W]

I was wondering how may dialects of thai there are, and whether the differences are just accent changes, or are they more like different languages, as with many chinese dialects ?

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The standard answer is four - Northern (Kan Mueang), Northeastern (=Lao), Central (~Standard) and Southern (Pak Thai). Southern Thai is most distinct. Central Thai and Northeastern Thai seem to have ancient differences, but of more recent changes Northern and Northeastern seem to have a good deal in common - indeed, Northern Thai has been called 'Western Lao'.

FWIW, Ethnologue lists the four as separate languages. They do have distinctive vocabulary. I've seen various claims on intelligibility - I've heard it claimed that Northern and Central are mutually intelligible, but on the other hand interpreters have been used for serious business! More realistically, Bangkok speakers claim not to understand the Sukhothai dialect, but as far as I understand that is also Central Thai.

When my daughter was learning to put sentences together, she identified English, Standard Thai and Northern Thai as distinct systems, and would choose which one to use on the basis of whom she was speaking to.

There is uncertainty as to the status of the dialect of Korat.

There are other Tai languages spoken in Thailand, but they are given the status of distinct languages. I have heard that Tai Yai (=Shan) of Chiangmai and Northern Thai (of Chiangmai) are mutually intelligible. However, it is possible that the language spoken was not Shan but Northern Thai with a Shan accent.

[loong]

Northern Thai has many many words that are unique to the area and share some words with Isaan or Lao.

Northen dialect also changes the tone of many words, especially the numbers.

It is rather frustrating to carefully learn the correct tones for Thai words and then find in the North they turn the tones on their heads.

Also many older people will substitute "S" for "Ch" and "H" for "R" sounds. So Chiang Rai will be referred to as Siang Hai.

One good thing is that , in the North, the people tend to speak more slowly.

[Richard W]

Northern Thai has many many words that are unique to the area and share some words with Isaan or Lao.

Also many older people will substitute "S" for "Ch" and "H" for "R" sounds. So Chiang Rai will be referred to as Siang Hai.

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A couple of weeks ago, in the space of a few minutes, my sister-in-law pronounced it Jiang Hai, Jiang Lai and Siang Hai!

I'm not sure it's just the older people. My wife's niece was teaching my daughter to recite the alphabet. My wife's niece, who grew up in Chiangmai province, managed 'chor chaang' (which my wife had had to work hard on), and then said 'chor choo'! From the hypercorrection I presume she too uses /s/ in her mother tongue.

Northen dialect also changes the tone of many words, especially the numbers.

It is rather frustrating to carefully learn the correct tones for Thai words and then find in the North they turn the tones on their heads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It happens with the Sukhothai dialect, too.

[NarrLing]

About a year ago I stumbled across a United Nations website that listed approximately 70 spoken languages/dialects for Thailand. Some of the languages/dialects were listed as only being spoken in small areas with single towns and families listed for that language.

My Thai friends can, at times, tell what Umphur a person comes from, by their accent. Very similar to Brits recognising people from different villages.

NL

[meadish_sweetball]

Northern Thai has many many words that are unique to the area and share some words with Isaan or Lao.

Also many older people will substitute "S" for "Ch" and "H" for "R" sounds. So Chiang Rai will be referred to as Siang Hai.

A couple of weeks ago, in the space of a few minutes, my sister-in-law pronounced it Jiang Hai, Jiang Lai and Siang Hai!

I'm not sure it's just the older people. My wife's niece was teaching my daughter to recite the alphabet. My wife's niece, who grew up in Chiangmai province, managed 'chor chaang' (which my wife had had to work hard on), and then said 'chor choo'! From the hypercorrection I presume she too uses /s/ in her mother tongue.

Northen dialect also changes the tone of many words, especially the numbers.

It is rather frustrating to carefully learn the correct tones for Thai words and then find in the North they turn the tones on their heads.

It happens with the Sukhothai dialect, too.

I feel the same sometimes. I had no idea when I studied Central Thai that I would end up with a Lanna lady and her Lanna relatives who never use Central Thai except at gunpoint.

[Richard W]

Dialectal differences include many aspects of the language, the more obvious ones are differing tone numbers and pitch curves (5 tones in Central Thai, 4 tones in the Khorat dialect, 6 in Northern Thai etc. etc.),

Numbers of tones vary even within the major dialect groups. As those who've read Li will know, there are four different ways of splitting the original three tones (which are what the spelling indicates) on live syllables:

The Central Thai, Isarn and most Southern Thai, where ป and บ are mid consonants (Li's Type III). In Central Thai, mid consonants are treated like low consonants in the absence of tone marks, and otherwise like high consonants. In Isarn Thai, mid consonants are treated like low consonants in the presence of mai tho. Other mergers vary from dialect to dialect. In Southern Thai, the three classes of consonant behave independently, but there are never more than 7 tones.

In the Southernmost dialects, the Tak Bai group, there is no distinction between mid and high consonants (Li's Type I).

In the Northern dialects, only บ and ด (for which the Lanna script uses ฑ) are mid consonants (Li's Type II). As in Central Thai, the mid consonants (of which there are fewer) are treated like low consonants in the absence of tone marks, and otherwise like high consonants. The difference from Central Thai is probably related to the fact that ค ช ท พ are not aspirated in Northern Thai (except in the combinations คร and พร, from which the ร is dropped in speech).

Another Northern peculiarity is that while Central Thai merged ฅ and ค, Northern Thai merged ฅ and ข, distinguishing them by tone.

specific vocabulary -"phii" ("older sibling", used as a pronoun) in Central Thai is "aay" (when referring to males) in Lao, Isarn and Northern Thai and "pii" (unaspirated, "b"-like sound) for females.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't the word for 'elder sister' the same (พี่) in all these dialects? The Northern Thai tone should indicate that /pii/ would be aspirated in Central Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

Dialectal differences include many aspects of the language, the more obvious ones are differing tone numbers and pitch curves (5 tones in Central Thai, 4 tones in the Khorat dialect, 6 in Northern Thai etc. etc.),

Numbers of tones vary even within the major dialect groups. As those who've read Li will know, there are four different ways of splitting the original three tones (which are what the spelling indicates) on live syllables:

The Central Thai, Isarn and most Southern Thai, where ป and บ are mid consonants (Li's Type III). In Central Thai, mid consonants are treated like low consonants in the absence of tone marks, and otherwise like high consonants. In Isarn Thai, mid consonants are treated like low consonants in the presence of mai tho. Other mergers vary from dialect to dialect. In Southern Thai, the three classes of consonant behave independently, but there are never more than 7 tones.

In the Southernmost dialects, the Tak Bai group, there is no distinction between mid and high consonants (Li's Type I).

In the Northern dialects, only บ and ด (for which the Lanna script uses ฑ) are mid consonants (Li's Type II). As in Central Thai, the mid consonants (of which there are fewer) are treated like low consonants in the absence of tone marks, and otherwise like high consonants. The difference from Central Thai is probably related to the fact that ค ช ท พ are not aspirated in Northern Thai (except in the combinations คร and พร, from which the ร is dropped in speech).

Another Northern peculiarity is that while Central Thai merged ฅ and ค, Northern Thai merged ฅ and ข, distinguishing them by tone.

specific vocabulary -"phii" ("older sibling", used as a pronoun) in Central Thai is "aay" (when referring to males) in Lao, Isarn and Northern Thai and "pii" (unaspirated, "b"-like sound) for females.

Isn't the word for 'elder sister' the same (พี่) in all these dialects? The Northern Thai tone should indicate that /pii/ would be aspirated in Central Thai.

I did read about the tone splits briefly in a book somewhere but they just gave me a major headache and did not seem interesting enough at the time, so I am afraid I can't quite follow what you are saying here Richard. I might come back later when I've got better from my flu.

Now that you mention I think you're be right. Not sure if "pii" is a pun-like mock-Northern pronunciation (since it is pronounced similar to a word meaning "to bump uglies"/ "hide the sausage" in Central Thai.

[NarrLing]

I've found a similar site to the United Nations one mentioned in my earlier post. The web site listed below states "The number of languages listed for Thailand is 75. Of those, all are living languages." It has a comprehensive list of the languages, alternative names and classifications.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Thailand

NL

Edited December 14, 2004 by NarrLing

[Richard W]

I've found a similar site to the United Nations one mentioned in my earlier post. The web site listed below states "The number of languages listed for Thailand is 75. Of those, all are living languages." It has a comprehensive list of the languages, alternative names and classifications.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Thailand

NL

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How come it lists Korean but not English? Should Swedish be listed?

Khun is one of the 75. How many speakers are there in Thailand? None?

[NarrLing]

What you say is true Richard W, no English, German, Russian, Swedish, Arabic etc listed.

ZOVOX asked how many dialects were spoken in Thailand. This site interested me as it listed more than the usual Central, Southern, Issan and Chiang Mai Thai that most foreigners hear about.

I speak passable Lao and Thai, both formal and street and am always interested in finding out more. My curiosity came about after one of the guides travelling with me near Chiang Mai said he spoke 7 hill tribe languages in addition to Thai.

Maybe we aren’t all experts, but there is still a lot more we can all learn about Thailand.

NL

[chuchok]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

[meadish_sweetball]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

Pali (although it has an initial /b/ sound in Thai, it does not in English) is not a living language anymore, and monks would not use it when talking about football, sweeping the yard or painting the house. There are no mother-tongue speakers of Pali.

[chuchok]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

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Pali (although it has an initial /b/ sound in Thai, it does not in English) is not a living language anymore, and monks would not use it when talking about football, sweeping the yard or painting the house. There are no mother-tongue speakers of Pali.

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My knowlege is very limited on the subject of languages, but if Universities offer degrees studying Pali, would it not then be classified as a living language?

I had a disagreement with a chap over this subject a couple of years ago when he decribed Pali as a dead language..I, of course was coming from a backgroung of complete ignorance.

[meadish_sweetball]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

Pali (although it has an initial /b/ sound in Thai, it does not in English) is not a living language anymore, and monks would not use it when talking about football, sweeping the yard or painting the house. There are no mother-tongue speakers of Pali.

My knowlege is very limited on the subject of languages, but if Universities offer degrees studying Pali, would it not then be classified as a living language?

I had a disagreement with a chap over this subject a couple of years ago when he decribed Pali as a dead language..I, of course was coming from a backgroung of complete ignorance.

I see your point, it is logical enough. But traditionally, for purposes of classification, a language that has no mother-tongue speakers is not considered to be a "living language". It is just terminology, not that important really.

Dead languages can be brought to life anew though; Hebrew is an excellent example of that.

[Richard W]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pali (although it has an initial /b/ sound in Thai, it does not in English) is not a living language anymore, and monks would not use it when talking about football, sweeping the yard or painting the house. There are no mother-tongue speakers of Pali.

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see your point, it is logical enough. But traditionally, for purposes of classification, a language that has no mother-tongue speakers is not considered to be a "living language". It is just terminology, not that important really.

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For the Summer Institute of Languages (SIL), whose site www.ethnologue.com is, I think the real issue is whether a bible translation is needed. They do actually list Pali and note that it is extinct but spoken in India, Myanmar and Sri Lanka.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Richard W

[Richard W]

Corrections

In Central Thai, mid consonants are treated like low consonants in the absence of tone marks, and otherwise like high consonants.

In most of Central Thai. In the U Thong dialect, live syllables with mid consonants and no tone mark have a tone of their own. I trust there are minimal pairs - an inherited minimal pair would have to be derived from the old ย/อย contrast, e.g. ยา 'patch, caulk' v. ยา 'medicine'.

In the Northern dialects, only บ and ด (for which the Lanna script uses ฑ) are mid consonants (Li's Type II).

I forgot อ and อย. Note that อย in live syllables without a tone mark has been simplified to ย in Standard Thai; in the Lao and Lanna scripts there is a separate letter for อย.

[~G~]

What about Pali/Bali? The blokes in the orange robes have been know to speak this...and there are a few of them here.

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Pali (although it has an initial /b/ sound in Thai, it does not in English) is not a living language anymore, and monks would not use it when talking about football, sweeping the yard or painting the house. There are no mother-tongue speakers of Pali.

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see your point, it is logical enough. But traditionally, for purposes of classification, a language that has no mother-tongue speakers is not considered to be a "living language". It is just terminology, not that important really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the Summer Institute of Languages (SIL), whose site www.ethnologue.com is, I think the real issue is whether a bible translation is needed. They do actually list Pali and note that it is extinct but spoken in India, Myanmar and Sri Lanka.

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In Sri Lanka the dominant language (Singhala) is derived from Sanskrit which is pretty close to Pali. That is why the Pali that Sri Lankan monks use is closest to the original. The average Sri Lankan will understand many words in Pali. In Thailand, altough Thai has some words from Sanskrit and Pali, these words were largly distorted. Not all Thai monks know Pali (besides the chanting they learn by repetition). They have to learn it as a new language. Similar situation in Myanmar.

It would happen sometimes that scholar Buddhist monks from different countries (who had to have a good knowledge of Pali for their study of the scriptures) were to meet and converse in Pali. It can be compared to the role Latin played in Europe at some stage.

[Johpa]

For what it is worth, our home in Chiang Mai is in my wife's family's native village which until the early 1990s was fairly isolated even by rural Thai standards. The people in that area speak what I call a very deep Kham Muang and people from Bangkok, Central Thai speakers, have a very difficult time understanding what is being said in conversation, especially the speech of those over 40 who never did learn to speal Central Thai. There are vocabulary differences, phonetic variations, and a few tonal changes, not to mention rural slang vs urban slang, which make the language the locals speak something other than a dialect of Central Thai. Alas, the younger folk hear mostly Central Thai in the media and are taught in Central Thai in school and only hear their Uuey speaking the original versions of Kham Muang.

[the scouser]

but there are never more than 7 tones.

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Is that all?

Scouse.

[Richard W]

but there are never more than 7 tones.

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Is that all?

Scouse.

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Well, that's up to 7 tones used to distinguish words. Tones like the 'Isaan shriek' are extra.