Not Always Telling The Truth

[midas]

I have lived in Thailand now for six years which is enough time to gain

at least a very rudimentary appreciation regarding the principles

of Buddhism. One thing I cannot understand and cannot reconcile

is the difference of Buddhists followers deep conviction to their

religion where followers appear virtuous and goodhearted but still having an ability

to often not tell the truth and to do so without any apparent

feelings or emotions? Does Buddhism specify that telling lies

is strictly against its principles? If so how do Buddhists reconcile

this conflict in their personal values?

[Brucenkhamen]

I have lived in Thailand now for six years which is enough time to gain

at least a very rudimentary appreciation regarding the principles

of Buddhism. One thing I cannot understand and cannot reconcile

is the difference of Buddhists followers deep conviction to their

religion where followers appear virtuous and goodhearted but still having an ability

to often not tell the truth and to do so without any apparent

feelings or emotions? Does Buddhism specify that telling lies

is strictly against its principles? If so how do Buddhists reconcile

this conflict in their personal values?

Have you observed this behavior in Buddhists, or in Thais?

[midas]

Have you observed this behavior in Buddhists, or in Thais?

Thank you very much for responding. I have to be very careful how to answer your question

because I had previously posted a more controversial question in the general section

which was subsequently deleted by the moderator on the grounds that it was potentially

offensive because :-

it was deleted per forum rules:

3) Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated.

I was certainly not seeking to be rude or to cast racial slurs collecting from this you will probably understand

who my question originally concerned. I acknowledge that not all Thais are Buddhists and

not all Thais fail to tell the truth but because Buddhism plays such a prominent role in this society,

I feel it is essential question which should be raised and quite frankly it is subject which I am constantly

asking myself?

[sabaijai]

I think it's a fair enough question. I think it would help us regulars in the Buddhism forum if you could give a concrete example.

Certainly one of the five precepts says to refrain from lying. But with all the precepts there are caveats connected to intention. For example if one lies in order to save someone else's life or livelihood, or so as not to hurt someone's feelings, it's not the same as lying in order to cheat someone in a business deal, etc.

It's not my experience, personally, that lying is connected to religious beliefs or lack thereof. Or that the Thais are more prone to lying than any other nationality.

I do think that many Thais are able to express themselves - whether lying or telling the truth - without showing the same degree of emotion than the typical westerner might. In other words Thais don't 'wear their emotions on their sleeves' to the same degree most westerners do. Of course there are plenty of exceptions in both cultures. To my mind this is a strength in the Thai character. I suppose it puts you at a disadvantage if it makes it harder for you to detect BS but I think you just have to adjust your BS detector to a finer setting.

[Brucenkhamen]

Have you observed this behavior in Buddhists, or in Thais?

Thank you very much for responding. I have to be very careful how to answer your question

because I had previously posted a more controversial question in the general section

which was subsequently deleted by the moderator on the grounds that it was potentially

offensive because :-

Your question was sensitively put and a worthwhile topic for discussion in the context of this forum, if you had referred to Thais instead of Buddhists I don't see why it would have been construed as a racial slur. And even if it were a slur I don't see why a slur on the basis of religion should be ok when one on the basis or race was not.

So if I understand correctly you are asking why dishonesty is so common in Thai culture when you'd think with all the influence from Buddhism lying would be seen as wrong.

I think the cultural need to maintain or save face and social harmony is at the root of Thai dishonesty, it is expected that you lie so as to maintain face for yourself and those around you and to maintain harmony, these are what we'd call white lies. I don't know whether this comes from Thailands pre-Buddhist cultural roots or whether it's a distortion of Buddhism.

When you get good and practiced at white lies then lies for the purposes of deceit or gain over others becomes easy.

Like any religion Buddhism ecourages truth for moral purposes, but in addition to that you cannot expect to be able to discover the reality of things for yourself if you are not honest with yourself, you cannot be expected to find truth if you don't speak the truth.

If more Thais actually practiced the Buddhas path rather than just subscribed to the Buddhist religion I'm sure that more would see the value of honesty above cultural norms and pressures.

[garro]

I can only speak for myself but my understanding is that the Buddha directed that we should avoid harmful speech. The truth is a difficult concept, it can be used for harm as well as good. Sometimes a lie might cause less harm than the truth. For example; lying about the whereabouts of a person you are protecting from dangerous people. Lying will always create some negative karma because it leads to ignorance but sometimes the 'truth' can cause more negative karma.

Edited December 3, 2008 by garro

[rockyysdt]

Most people lie in their daily lives (three lies per 10 minutes revealed in a study was thought to be very conservative).

Lieing also includes embellishment of the facts designed to boost the liars ego in the eyes of others.

In fact when in conversation most people spend atleast 50% of their time spreading or listening to gossip or distorting the truth.

A master once said that if a practioner was able to control their propensity to gossip and lie, thay would be considered extremely advanced in their path to enlightenment.

[midas]

Your question was sensitively put and a worthwhile topic for discussion in the context of this forum, if you had referred to Thais instead of Buddhists I don't see why it would have been construed as a racial slur. And even if it were a slur I don't see why a slur on the basis of religion should be ok when one on the basis or race was not.

So if I understand correctly you are asking why dishonesty is so common in Thai culture when you'd think with all the influence from Buddhism lying would be seen as wrong.

Yes this is exactly the apparent paradoxes that I am unable to understand

I think the cultural need to maintain or save face and social harmony is at the root of Thai dishonesty, it is expected that you lie so as to maintain face for yourself and those around you and to maintain harmony, these are what we'd call white lies. I don't know whether this comes from Thailands pre-Buddhist cultural roots or whether it's a distortion of Buddhism.

But in a religion which appears so virtuous I don't see that there is any room for value judgments as to whether a lie white or otherwise is acceptable?

When you get good and practiced at white lies then lies for the purposes of deceit or gain over others becomes easy.

Yes this is exactly the kind of behavior I have been witnessing in someone I know for over one year now.

Like any religion Buddhism ecourages truth for moral purposes, but in addition to that you cannot expect to be able to discover the reality of things for yourself if you are not honest with yourself, you cannot be expected to find truth if you don't speak the truth.

If more Thais actually practiced the Buddhas path rather than just subscribed to the Buddhist religion I'm sure that more would see the value of honesty above cultural norms and pressures.

A family member of the person who I have been observing has consistently and regularly shown signs of even more deceitful and dishonest behavior and yet doesn't seem to have

any guilty conscience or concerns that this conflicts with religious values. Yes indeed while this person spends a lot of money ( by Thai salary standards )

and time merit making in temples once they leave the temple it's as if they leave that behind and they feel free to disregard all reasonable moral and religious constraints.

This seems incredibly hypocritical to me and surely is just as you say ONLY subscribing to the Buddhist religion. I wonder how prevalent this is amongst Buddhist Thai people?

Edited December 4, 2008 by midas

[Samuian]

"Always speak the truth, but never the unpleasant truth!"

this short asian (indian or thai don't know) phrase, explains a lot, as bruceankamen and others already mentioned "harmful truth" is beingavoided to keep face, or allow someone else to keep face.

Besides someone writes that lying or distorting the truth is somewhat universal, human nature, everyone tends to lie.

so i conclude THAT is why we got the "noble path", the buddhas teaching, if everything would have been perfect, there would be no need for dhammapada.....

Then we got truth, there are many truth's but only one reality, I try and stick to the last.....just a thought...

[Brucenkhamen]

A family member of the person who I have been observing has consistently and regularly shown signs of even more deceitful and dishonest behavior and yet doesn't seem to have

any guilty conscience or concerns that this conflicts with religious values. Yes indeed while this person spends a lot of money ( by Thai salary standards )

and time merit making in temples once they leave the temple it's as if they leave that behind and they feel free to disregard all reasonable moral and religious constraints.

This seems incredibly hypocritical to me and surely is just as you say ONLY subscribing to the Buddhist religion. I wonder how prevalent this is amongst Buddhist Thai people?

It seems to me that often the Thai people who are the most keen on merit making are the worst in terms of morality, it's like they feel they can do all the wrong they want and then buy their way back into heaven.

I think if they actually stopped and thought about it they might realise that the law of kamma doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day that's their problem though, we each have our own path to tread and shouldn't be concerned about how other people doing, if lying seems wrong to you then don't do it and be a good example to others, but don't judge them either.

[Brucenkhamen]

I can only speak for myself but my understanding is that the Buddha directed that we should avoid harmful speech. The truth is a difficult concept, it can be used for harm as well as good. Sometimes a lie might cause less harm than the truth. For example; lying about the whereabouts of a person you are protecting from dangerous people. Lying will always create some negative karma because it leads to ignorance but sometimes the 'truth' can cause more negative karma.

The word used in the 5 precepts is musāvāda, I've searched through a few dictionary and glossary sites and they all translate it as lying or false speech.

I'm not sure whether the "harmful" speech idea comes from, it's good to observe that to but as far as i can tell the precept is primarily about not lying.

[chutai]

But in a religion which appears so virtuous I don't see that there is any room for value judgments as to whether a lie white or otherwise is acceptable?

I'm not exactly sure by what is implied by a white lie , but certainly in the Lotus Sutra there is even a chapter called the Expedient Means, chapter 2 (Jpn.: Hoben-bon).. The parable of the Burning House , chapter 3 (Hiyu) is also such wherein expedient means are used to display Shakyamuni Buddha's great compassion.

The Parable of the Burning House

One day, a fire broke out in the house of a wealthy man who had many children. The wealthy man shouted at his children inside the burning house to flee. But, the children were absorbed in their games and did not heed his warning, though the house was being consumed by flames.

Then, the wealthy man devised a practical way to lure the children from the burning house. Knowing that the children were fond of interesting playthings, he called out to them, "Listen! Outside the gate are the carts that you have always wanted: carts pulled by goats, carts pulled by deer, and carts pulled by oxen. Why don't you come out and play with them?" The wealthy man knew that these things would be irresistible to his children.

The children, eager to play with these new toys rushed out of the house but, instead of the carts that he had promised, the father gave them a cart much better than any he has described - a cart draped with precious stones and pulled by white bullocks. The important thing being that the children were saved from the dangers of the house on fire.

In this parable the father, of course, is the Buddha and sentient beings are the children trapped in the burning house. The Burning House represents the world burning with the fires of old age, sickness and death. The teachings of the Buddha are like the father getting the boys to leave their pleasures for a greater pleasure, Nirvana.

A further interpretation is to see the the goat, deer, and ox carts as representing the early teachings of Buddhism, as the teachings of Hinayana Buddhism (the Mahayana term for the Buddhism that preceded it), and the cart pulled by white bullocks to 'The Lotus Sutra' which, when followed, leads to Buddhahood.

Personally I was never impressed by Kant's categorical imperative where consequences of an act are themselves deemed morally neutral, and therefore irrelevant to moral deliberation. Buddhism is utilitarian in so much that actions are considered correct if they don't induce suffering , therefore, by implication enhance happiness and are viewed in the category of "moral consequentialism" or their karmic effect.

[mgjackson69]

A family member of the person who I have been observing has consistently and regularly shown signs of even more deceitful and dishonest behavior and yet doesn't seem to have

any guilty conscience or concerns that this conflicts with religious values. Yes indeed while this person spends a lot of money ( by Thai salary standards )

and time merit making in temples once they leave the temple it's as if they leave that behind and they feel free to disregard all reasonable moral and religious constraints.

This seems incredibly hypocritical to me and surely is just as you say ONLY subscribing to the Buddhist religion. I wonder how prevalent this is amongst Buddhist Thai people?

It seems to me that often the Thai people who are the most keen on merit making are the worst in terms of morality, it's like they feel they can do all the wrong they want and then buy their way back into heaven.

A similar observation can be made in the West, where plenty of people seem to think that as long as they attend worship service on Sunday, they are guaranteed admission to Heaven, regardless of how they act the rest of the week.

edit: fixx speling

Edited December 4, 2008 by mgjackson69

[camerata]

A family member of the person who I have been observing has consistently and regularly shown signs of even more deceitful and dishonest behavior and yet doesn't seem to have

any guilty conscience or concerns that this conflicts with religious values. Yes indeed while this person spends a lot of money ( by Thai salary standards )

and time merit making in temples once they leave the temple it's as if they leave that behind and they feel free to disregard all reasonable moral and religious constraints.

This seems incredibly hypocritical to me and surely is just as you say ONLY subscribing to the Buddhist religion. I wonder how prevalent this is amongst Buddhist Thai people?

The thing is, Thais don't "subscribe" to the Buddhist religion, they are assigned the Buddhist religion. It's drummed into them from an early age that they are Buddhists. So it becomes part of their cultural identity but many of them never really buy into its core principles. You can't really accuse Thais of being hypocritical for lying when they aren't going round telling everyone else they should keep the precept against lying. They are just practising Buddhism the way they think is important, which is making merit to ensure a better rebirth. They don't see telling lies as preventing them from getting a good rebirth. Most Western Buddhists, and the more serious Thai Buddhists, see the moral side of Buddhism as essential in mental cultivation and the reduction of suffering in this life, but many Thais don't. When they need help for everyday problems they visit an astrologer, buy an amulet or pray at the Erawan Shrine.

[Samuian]

A family member of the person who I have been observing has consistently and regularly shown signs of even more deceitful and dishonest behavior and yet doesn't seem to have

any guilty conscience or concerns that this conflicts with religious values. Yes indeed while this person spends a lot of money ( by Thai salary standards )

and time merit making in temples once they leave the temple it's as if they leave that behind and they feel free to disregard all reasonable moral and religious constraints.

This seems incredibly hypocritical to me and surely is just as you say ONLY subscribing to the Buddhist religion. I wonder how prevalent this is amongst Buddhist Thai people?

It seems to me that often the Thai people who are the most keen on merit making are the worst in terms of morality, it's like they feel they can do all the wrong they want and then buy their way back into heaven.

I think if they actually stopped and thought about it they might realise that the law of kamma doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day that's their problem though, we each have our own path to tread and shouldn't be concerned about how other people doing, if lying seems wrong to you then don't do it and be a good example to others, but don't judge them either.

Comes exclusively a certain prime minister to mind....

If the people concerned are educated well enough either way and have a deeper knowledge of the dhammapada and other buddhist scriptures, those of bikkhu buddhadasa f.e. tend to be much, much more firm in practicing dhamma, then those who are merely followers.

and as the post concludes ...be mindful towards everything and everyone...think can be widely seen as part of the idea of AHIMSA - non violence. And is a vedic concept which dates way before the enlightened one.

Next lying underlies the concept of dukkha and will be direct subjected to suffering, pain, unsatisfactoriness, sorrow, affliction, anxiety, dissatisfaction, discomfort, anguish, stress, misery, and frustration!

The deeper the understanding of the concept of dukkha is, the more one will stay away from lying and telling untruthful stories, because it will increase dukkha, who in his right mind would hurt himself at free will?

[midas]

It seems to me that often the Thai people who are the most keen on merit making are the worst in terms of morality, it's like they feel they can do all the wrong they want and then buy their way back into heaven.

I think if they actually stopped and thought about it they might realise that the law of kamma doesn't work that way.

At the end of the day that's their problem though, we each have our own path to tread and shouldn't be concerned about how other people doing, if lying seems wrong to you then don't do it and be a good example to others, but don't judge them either.

You are correct because the person I'm referring to in my opinion does sometimes show low morality but

when walking past a beggar on the street has tossed in a few baht to the cup explaining that it is a way of

buying one's way to the " seventh level " . As a complete novice in Buddhism, I thought from the beginning

surely that cannot be right when measured against the person's normal day-to-day activities and behavior

which I am sure the average Thai monk would not approve ?

It is particularly poignant for me at the moment because with everything else that is going on in Thailand

you're constantly trying to get a handle on this country and an understanding of what makes people " tick "here.

I have to admit in my mind the personal experience of watching someone you think you know and who

you thought was such a devout Buddhist is actually manipulating the religion for their own purposes for me

generates a negative perspective of this country and its people which is

sad in some ways.

[camerata]

You are correct because the person I'm referring to in my opinion does sometimes show low morality but

when walking past a beggar on the street has tossed in a few baht to the cup explaining that it is a way of

buying one's way to the " seventh level " .

This is not "manipulating religion." Generosity is a legitimate and important part of Buddhist practice, if a low-level one. If the guy mentioned anything about "seventh level" it's most likely a joke, as in the expression, "kheun sawan chan jet." I've never heard any Thai claiming to be buying his way to heaven. Are you sure you understood him correctly?

[Lancelot]

I am always amused when my fellow farangs indignantly say "I don't lie for anyone!"

Oh really?

OK, Lance is the only lying farang alive. Some examples of my "lies"

My Mom "Did you like the pot roast (with turnips) Lancey? Lance "Mom, I loved it, especially the turnips." Man, I HATE turnips.

Girlfriend "Does this dress make me look fat honey?" Lance "Actually hon, I think you've lost weight." No explanation needed there

Interviewer "Why do you want to join XYZ company?" Lance "XYZ Corp is a world renowned leader in... and its one of my life goal to join this management team" Translation, Lance just wants a paycheck

Maybe we all stretch the truth a bit at times?!?

[midas]

You are correct because the person I'm referring to in my opinion does sometimes show low morality but

when walking past a beggar on the street has tossed in a few baht to the cup explaining that it is a way of

buying one's way to the " seventh level " .

This is not "manipulating religion." Generosity is a legitimate and important part of Buddhist practice, if a low-level one. If the guy mentioned anything about "seventh level" it's most likely a joke, as in the expression, "kheun sawan chan jet." I've never heard any Thai claiming to be buying his way to heaven. Are you sure you understood him correctly?

These are my words but believe me he explained this to me in great detail and was deadly serious.

it wasnt a joke.

Surely it's manipulating religion if you can justify your immoral and dishonest conduct otherwise by

being kindhearted five or ten percent of the time? Don't forget this original post was about

somebody blanantly lying continually - surely you cannot do that in Buddhism and then think you are

on the right road to reach nirvana by paying people now and again?

[midas]

I am always amused when my fellow farangs indignantly say "I don't lie for anyone!"

Oh really?

OK, Lance is the only lying farang alive. Some examples of my "lies"

My Mom "Did you like the pot roast (with turnips) Lancey? Lance "Mom, I loved it, especially the turnips." Man, I HATE turnips.

Girlfriend "Does this dress make me look fat honey?" Lance "Actually hon, I think you've lost weight." No explanation needed there

Interviewer "Why do you want to join XYZ company?" Lance "XYZ Corp is a world renowned leader in... and its one of my life goal to join this management team" Translation, Lance just wants a paycheck

Maybe we all stretch the truth a bit at times?!?

OK -but do you consider your self to be a devout Buddhist in other regards otherwise

your statement is completely meaningless ? I'm not talking about farangs lying-

I'm talking about people who devote considerable part of their life and energy

in the sole aim of reaching " nirvana " - the seventh level where I understand Lord Buddha

remains ? This is what I had been told by them anyway.

The relevant question is whether consistent and serious lying conflicts with

true Buddhism not whether you HATE turnips.

[Brucenkhamen]

You

Surely it's manipulating religion if you can justify your immoral and dishonest conduct otherwise by

being kindhearted five or ten percent of the time? Don't forget this original post was about

somebody blanantly lying continually - surely you cannot do that in Buddhism and then think you are

on the right road to reach nirvana by paying people now and again?

It's not manipulating religion, for it it be that it would have to actually work It's just kidding one's self, as anybody like yourself observing it with a bit of objectivity can see.

[camerata]

These are my words but believe me he explained this to me in great detail and was deadly serious.

it wasnt a joke.

Then he must be a remarkably cynical individual who (very unusual for a Thai) doesn't care about face. As I mentioned above, the general attitude seems to be that on the one hand lying is not a big deal, whereas on the other making merit at temples is very important for assuring oneself of a good rebirth. The latter is something that is mentioned in some detail in the Pali Canon.

Surely it's manipulating religion if you can justify your immoral and dishonest conduct otherwise by

being kindhearted five or ten percent of the time? Don't forget this original post was about

somebody blanantly lying continually - surely you cannot do that in Buddhism and then think you are

on the right road to reach nirvana by paying people now and again?

But is this guy really trying to justify his lying? It sounds to me like he just doesn't think it's important, whereas his other religious activities are. Merit-making and so on will get him social acceptance too. If he had chosen Buddhism as a religion and bought into its core principles, he wouldn't be lying so much because he'd understand the reason for not doing it. According to an excellent book I read recently, most Thais believe they will attain Nirvana simply by merit-making over countless lifetimes, but this idea isn't supported in the Pali Canon.

[garro]

I can only speak for myself but my understanding is that the Buddha directed that we should avoid harmful speech. The truth is a difficult concept, it can be used for harm as well as good. Sometimes a lie might cause less harm than the truth. For example; lying about the whereabouts of a person you are protecting from dangerous people. Lying will always create some negative karma because it leads to ignorance but sometimes the 'truth' can cause more negative karma.

The word used in the 5 precepts is musāvāda, I've searched through a few dictionary and glossary sites and they all translate it as lying or false speech.

I'm not sure whether the "harmful" speech idea comes from, it's good to observe that to but as far as i can tell the precept is primarily about not lying.

I was actually referring to the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path which is concerned with samma vacca or right speech which involves not only directions about lying but also pharasa vacca which is harsh speech, pisunu vacca which is slandering, and samphpalapa which is gossip. My point was that these can come into conflict sometimes.

[rockyysdt]

It seems to me that often the Thai people who are the most keen on merit making are the worst in terms of morality, it's like they feel they can do all the wrong they want and then buy their way back into heaven.

Comes exclusively a certain prime minister to mind....

The key to merit making is your purpose.

If the merit is to improve your public standing (viz ..... prime minister ) then the merit would appear on the negative side of your ledger.

[rockyysdt]

You are correct because the person I'm referring to in my opinion does sometimes show low morality but

when walking past a beggar on the street has tossed in a few baht to the cup explaining that it is a way of

buying one's way to the " seventh level " .

This is not "manipulating religion." Generosity is a legitimate and important part of Buddhist practice, if a low-level one. If the guy mentioned anything about "seventh level" it's most likely a joke, as in the expression, "kheun sawan chan jet." I've never heard any Thai claiming to be buying his way to heaven. Are you sure you understood him correctly?

I've read that charity should be a self less act of love and kindness, not an ego driven act in order to achieve personal gain.

Perhaps, in the example above any merit would be negated by the intention.

[camerata]

I've read that charity should be a self less act of love and kindness, not an ego driven act in order to achieve personal gain.

Perhaps, in the example above any merit would be negated by the intention.

You may be surprised at how far a gift made out of self-interest can get you. From the Dana Sutta:

"Sariputta, there is the case where a person gives a gift seeking his own profit, with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a priest or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

[lagoona2099]

Just to share a story with you guys:

There was a time when Buddha was sitting under a tree meditating. Soon after a robber ran past the buddha along the road. Observing this, Buddha turned around and continue to meditate. Very soon, a constable came running down the road chasing after the robber. Seeing that Buddha was around, the constable asked the Buddha whether he saw a robber ran past Buddha. Buddha replied, "When I was sitting in this position, I did not see anyone went past me".

Cheers! Hopefully that little story might give you a understanding of upholding the 4th precept.

[luckyluke]

"In certain cases a bodhisattva may kill, steal,commit adultery, or take drugs, but he may not lie. Intentional lying contradicts reality."

~Jatakas 431 ~ (What Would Buddha Do?/Franz Metcalf)

[sabaijai]

"In certain cases a bodhisattva may kill, steal,commit adultery, or take drugs, but he may not lie. Intentional lying contradicts reality."

~Jatakas 431 ~ (What Would Buddha Do?/Franz Metcalf)

This quotation doesn't come from one of the Jatakas, but is rather an opinion found in the book What Would Buddha Do? 101 Answers to Life's Daily Dilemmas, by Franz Metcalf.

Personally I suspect the conclusion was drawn by taking examples out of context and was intended to be controversial and provocative.

[fabianfred]

Remembering that a boddhisatva is still a Buddha in training....not yet enlightened.

The Buddha, throughout his long training in the perfections as a Boddhisatva was born in the animal realm, and in the hel_l realm.

Boddhisatvas are never born as tiny creatures (smaller than a mouse)....never in the deepest hells, nor as hungry ghosts, nor as females..... so as not to be overwhelmed in their long struggle.